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Boondokz

Can We Stop Catering to New Players?

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7 hours ago, (PS4)Double991 said:

If you could bring the same weapon build to every encounter and have the outcome be the exact same, at some point is that not boring monotonous gameplay? We have the freedom to make various effective builds because that spices up the encounter. Not all of them are going to work all of the time and that's fine.

In the complaint threads I was only observing the common solution presented by those who claim they weren't having a problem and that was better mobility. There could have been a variety of factors as to why the others were dying but who knows. Sure you can bring a bow to fight a bunch of nullifiers but that doesn't seem like a good idea and if things get too difficult, you can't complain because you made it that way. That's like using puncture to take down shields. In this case a bow would probably still be good for heavy targets so the smart move would be to accompany it with something that can clear the nullifier bubbles.

When the vast majority of the game is made easy, are casuals players not satisfied? At some point every veteran was a casual player that simply played enough to gather a wide variety of builds until they were ready for something beyond the star chart which is what PoE and Fortuna should be (and chronologically speaking, they are).

Fortuna is merely a small slice of what Warframe has to offer. Personally I feel it's deceptive marketing on DE's part to advertise PoE and Fortuna the way they do because these places do nothing for new players but that's business so I can't blame them. They login, see the cool stuff, don't get that far and leave instead of working their way up through the star chart to get the full experience however this is more the fault of the early game not giving proper guidance..

That's versatility. That's making the game more accessible. Imagine having to drop entire weapons because their damage type is wrong for the mission at hand. 

"Sure you can bring a bow to fight a bunch of nullifiers but that doesn't seem like a good idea and if things get too difficult, you can't complain because you made it that way."

That is exactly the point: You can choose to do this. You can create your own difficulty level, rather than creating harder content which risks alienating casual players. Make your own fun. I get enjoyment out of playing with a large variety of weapons, I don't pick only what is best for every scenario, otherwise I'd be sticking with one or two weapons, all the time. 

"At some point every veteran was a casual player that simply played enough to gather a wide variety of builds until they were ready for something beyond the star chart which is what PoE and Fortuna should be (and chronologically speaking, they are)."

No, they should not. You cannot keep incrementing difficulty because a small section of the playerbase is obsessed with becoming as strong as possible and subsequently complaining that they've made themselves too strong. YOU may have had the time available to sink into the game to get perfect builds, but not every player can afford to sink that much time into it. 

"Fortuna is merely a small slice of what Warframe has to offer. Personally I feel it's deceptive marketing on DE's part to advertise PoE and Fortuna the way they do because these places do nothing for new players but that's business so I can't blame them. They login, see the cool stuff, don't get that far and leave instead of working their way up through the star chart to get the full experience however this is more the fault of the early game not giving proper guidance.."

Fortuna is almost completely self-contained. Next to nothing in Fortuna is inaccessible to players that are capable of accessing Venus. With sufficient grind, they can get K-Drives, kitguns, MOA companions, wildlife conservation, fishing and mining.

The ONLY thing that new players won't get out of Fortuna is Little Duck's operator suit collection. That is all. 

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21 hours ago, Nihil501 said:

Your point would make sense OP if Fortuna wouldn't be found literally on the 2nd starting planet in the game.

neither Earth nor Venus open world regions should even be accessible to new Players. it's available because Marketing rules would always dictate that to be the case - but that new Mastery 1 Player? these two open world regions are mostly a waste of their time. it's just not beneficial for their progression to spend a lot of time there. play a few Bounties to get some Mods that perhaps make their progression easier (mostly Earth, with things like Vigilante Armaments being super common and cheap to Equip, great for Newbies - stuff like that).
but after that.... it's just not for them. the Resources you get there are almost entirely used for only those places, and not the other 90% of the progression in the game.

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i think is better for everyone if DE just scale up enemy lvl based on story quest progression 

So, as you progress in story enemy get more difficult , ex ( after finish 2nd dream quest enemy will start for 30+) and for group mission difficult will based on host lvl     

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or they could have nerfed the level of the enemys in the 1st and second bounty (which would also lower the dmg and time needed to kill them) and let everything else be as it was. personally i didn't find them challenging, sure some did deal good amount of dmg in the highest bountys, but its to be expected.

the argument of being in the 2nd planet... they only do this and allow mastery rank 1 player to enter because they want everyone to be able to experience the new content and most likely the content for what the players started the game in the first place (new ones). yes as newbie u can complete 1st and 2nd bounty (and could on cetus when poe was new) but 3,4,5? not rly, 3rd maybe,just maybe, but last two bountys u had to be carried.

as for the quest, give it the same treatment as the ones i suggested earlier, now evryone can finish it, for new players maybe with some challenge, for veterans it was already easy, so it doesn't matter.

the whole veteran vs newbie: yes veterans forget what its like to be new and to not have  formaed or potatoed weapons and having no mods or if you have some, they are mostly unranked and while new players may find some challenge in the content they play while going trough the star chart and playing fortuna and the cetus, since its [de] who introduced and allowed players to be able to have such strong kits (warframes/gun builds) and not balance properly for those, but instead for star chart lvl (lvl 30), its the responsibility of [de] to do something and give veterans a proper challenge in some regards. dont tell the players to go and equip unranked and unmoddet mk1-brattons and equip all dragon keys so they can have a challenge, this is stupid.

i didn't expect fortuna to be a lot more difficult then poe, didn't expect much in sense of content, but the good old bountys, still i do enjoy it so far and like the changes to the bountys, was a bit suprised of the dmg/spanws and agressivnes of the mobs and the way they behave and also how fast u can be almost overrun from them, but i did like it a lot. it wasn't all that challenging thou, except u played on "4-5(?) star alertness level" for a long time and the mobs started scaling which is a bit slower right now (it feels this way at least).

 

i hope [de] considers adding new planets/zones which can only be entered after you progressed a bit in this game, similar how arbitrations require you to complete the star chart, where players who have strong builds can also get some challenge and also know why the f** they are making those builds and using formas for them.

ps: staying 40-50min in endurance mode should not be required, until the mobs scale high enough, if you want to get some degree of challenge in this game. arbitrations may have the scaling, but the doubled time untill you see the reward is making it very unappealing (also if u dare play with randoms, u better start praying that they don't extract after rotation "a") 

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I thought these new things were challenging.
Then I remembered to bring stuff that I actually use, instead of trying to level mastery fodder whilst doing bounties solo.
Now it's easy.
Except when it's broken, like "do a solo box-claim. in a cave."
 

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vor 12 Stunden schrieb LarryYourWaiter:

DE needs to draw in new players or the game dies.  Mr25 players are not throwing very much money into the game any more - they have everything and they have ways of making plat in game.

DE is a company and wants to make profit.  So they should.  It’s the mr5 players who are spending real money here.  They’ve decided they like the game enough to stick around and need lots of things like slots and have no way of farming the plat in game yet. 

Please remember there’s a business model here.  And veterans are not the priority.  Deal with it.

I have to say something to that:

- you are right, new players probably spend more money on the game

- yes DE as a company has to please them so that the feel like supporting the game

 

- still, you can spend a four digit number on Warframe on PC to get all there is to get (Tennogen)

- and a Vet will pay money from time to time if he is also still satisfied with the game

- a Vet that is like "hm i dont know what to do in this game anymore, maybe ill leave and play other games soon" surely wont spend any more money on the game

- but if this Vet still feels as motivated as in hirst first days, its more likely he keeps spending money

- so even if its a fact that new players spend more money (is it even a fact, do we have numbers on that?) it might be for that simple reason i mentioned that some Vets think about leaving the game anyway or dont play it much and so dont consider it a worthy investment anymore

 

TLDR:

so cause and effect might be the other way around as we think - its not:

cause=Vets dont spend money - effect=no gameplay for vets

but

cause=no gameplay for vets - effect=vets dont pay money anymore

 

Ps: You would be surprised how much money some vets spend on the game 😉 i talked to alot of people in the alliance, and you might call some numbers "shocking" ^^

So we shouldnt think that there is no money to get from vets.

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14 minutes ago, 541K4T said:

Very True.

Before Nerf,

tenor.gif?itemid=4674324

After Nerf

tenor.gif?itemid=4799361

Notice how Saitama is still killing everything in that first gif in one punch and the only difference is how much he reacts to the enemy attacks? Yeah, that sums up difficulty in Warframe right now, at least in my opinion.

I'm happy with the Vallis difficulty right now, since there are a number of targets that can still kill me very quickly (The mini-bosses especially) and they don't die in one hit. Only thing I'd change is the nullifier drones, make their location more obvious since unlike regular nullies it's unclear about what you have to shoot to get rid of that field - maybe also limit what can be affected to just mooks, but I'm less fussed about that.. Since there's CC and beefy melee units everywhere, I also have to actively dodge attacks and certain enemies. I have to pick my targets wisely, and thanks to the Nullies, make use of my powers wisely since they can be taken away at a moment's notice. I have to overcome a serious threat, and feel all the stronger once I do.

I don't know about anyone else, but this is how it feels to me.

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On 2018-11-14 at 6:38 PM, Boondokz said:

in fact new players shouldnt be there to begin with. What will they gain?

New players can wander in, what's there to stop these players from coming in? Like they would know it's a massive grind wall, and not all read wiki/info about the game before jumping in.

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23 hours ago, Pizzarugi said:

I took a look at your profile ingame OP. I'm sorry, you can't say Orb Vallis is a damn snorefest when several of your more used frames, including Ember, Saryn, and Mesa, have an absurd amount more kills than any of your other owned and played frames. Your most used melee weapon is also the Atterax! The game isn't supposed to be designed around press-4-to-win noobery, so of course you're going to think Orb Vallis isn't catering to you, when you can nuke everything miles away by mindlessly pressing one button, while everyone gets to sit around and let the game play itself.

Don't think I didn't check your profile either @Arc2199, you're currently using Mesa (as of writing this), and Saryn has a huge deal more kills than anything else that you own. Orb Vallis wasn't, and shouldn't be, made for people like you.

You two are your own worst enemies.

Have you considered trying other frames in Orb Vallis before making this complaint? I took Nekros Prime there earlier to try and grind hard for those toroids, and I can say that if you don't stay on top of summoning and maintaining shadows (assuming you're using Shield of Shadows), enemies are going to deny you any kind of foothold without you having to die first. 

Lol another joker. Of course my saryn has the most kills. I farmed Khora in santuary using her! I did most of my focus farming using her! Does that make me somehow forbidden from having fun in fortuna?

And yes I'm using Mesa in Orb Vallis. She is a frame is she not? Should I use wukong in Orb Vallis instead? Will take grant me the honour of having fun?

Before the Fortuna nerf even my MESA was getting her ass kicked in Orb Vallis , along with all of my frames. Now I'm snoozing with the entire zone with all my frames.

Stop acting all high and mighty. You're just like any other player. If anything it's you who are the true noob that's being completely satisfied with weaker enemies. You don't want press-4-towin. You want press-anything-to-win. I want to keep doing the bounties while facing thougher enemies. The fortuna enemies were just that! And now they're not because MR1 players were finding it difficult.

The fortuna bounties were a blast with 'CHALLENGE ON THE GO'. I don't want to wait in a spot for 20mins just for things to get to an acceptable level of difficulty. The truth is they're going to find anything and everything difficult , not because they don't know how to mod , it's because they don't even have most mods.

 

And yet , the whole of fortuna has been nerfed for them.

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2 hours ago, 541K4T said:

Very True.

Before Nerf,

tenor.gif?itemid=4674324

After Nerf

tenor.gif?itemid=4799361

This exactly how I feel.

 

TIL I'm Saitama.

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What a ridiculous sentiment. "Screw other player's game experience, I just want the want the game to be the way I want it.'

There was no challenge in Fortuna in the first place. Only the mild annoyance of corpus with beams that push you and bursa's that vomit nearly invisible patches of bounce mines. And those mines are the only thing that got a significant nerf. Enemies damage wasn't reduced by half, they only lost a few points. The only "challenge" was finding anyone under mr10 in any mission, and then rez'ing them consistently. The elitism in this thread is disgusting. After a while, the only thing that's going to kill you is spawning into an Arbitration without being invulnerable for the loading duration.

DE spent most of a year getting Fortuna in order. They're a videogame company. They are absolutely going to want as many people to be able to play it as possible. Considering how many new players joined on seeing Fortuna, it's going to need to be at least somewhat new player friendly.

Like people have been saying, i's the second planet you get to in the game.
"My OP gear isn't challenged by this early game open area! REEEEE!"
My heart bleeds for your loss. That massive loss of 5 points of base enemy damage.
:vomit:

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People seem to be forgetting, fortuna isn't even fully released yet. They are releasing it in waves. The people getting worked up about it really need to calm down. 

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Newer players will always be the majority as long as the game keeps attracting new players.  All veterans were once new players, but not all new players become veterans.  I imagine if you put the numbers into a chart, it would look like a pyramid with mr1 at the bottom and mr25 at the top - when you allow for all the accounts that never made it past mr1 for whatever reason

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The Vallis is a strange place, either your cruising through it destroying everyone immediately, or you're getting randomly one-shot and you can't work out which enemy is doing it...

Can't say I noticed any difference in difficulty after the "nerf", most enemies only lost like 5-10 damage, is that really so bad? 

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On 2018-11-14 at 6:08 AM, Nihil501 said:

Your point would make sense OP if Fortuna wouldn't be found literally on the 2nd starting planet in the game.

Since when do planets determine difficulty. The easiest boss is that dumb corpus soldier on a highe planet. Sorties happen on Venus, Nightmare missions happen on venus you can get difficult content on any planet. Your argument makes no sense.

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See, my issue isn't with 'X enemies are high level' it's that their level is INCONSISTENT with the threat of things elsewhere. If you want level 100 enemies on Vallis, that's fine! Great!

But don't call them level 100 enemies if they're not equivalent to level 100 enemies elsewhere or the entire system of enemy levels loses all meaning.

100 should be 100, no matter where you are. Not 'Vallis 100' or 'Sortie 100', just 100.

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10 hours ago, DeltaPangaea said:

See, my issue isn't with 'X enemies are high level' it's that their level is INCONSISTENT with the threat of things elsewhere. If you want level 100 enemies on Vallis, that's fine! Great!

But don't call them level 100 enemies if they're not equivalent to level 100 enemies elsewhere or the entire system of enemy levels loses all meaning.

100 should be 100, no matter where you are. Not 'Vallis 100' or 'Sortie 100', just 100.

And why is that?

On what arbitrary basis should that be followed?

Fortuna enemies were amazing before. By your logic no enemy should be special and that logic is S#&$.

Numbers are the most arbitrary thing in the game where every enemy has special moves , special resistances , special weaknesses and strengths.

Fortuna enemies having more damage would be just one more specialty added to the pile.

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En 15/11/2018 a las 8:10, Loswaith dijo:

This is the completely wrong attitude, veterans have all the power in their gear to make the game as easy or challenging as they desire.  This means we do have all the challenge we can possibly hope for with the gear, the game just isn't designed around using all that gear at the same time (though ROFL stomping stuff can be fun too now and again).

 

Look at it from DEs point of view.  If you look at steams percentage of achievements (given it is a percentage its likely similar across all ways to play) only 7.5% have reached mastery rank 10 (Seeker), 4.2% mastery rank 15 (Gold Hunter), 2.3% have reached mastery rank 20 (Silver Tiger).  Now if you remove the obvious hacked achievements of 1.2% (that apparently have gotten mastery rank 30), that leaves a very tiny percentage of players to spend essentially 6+ months of work for.

Now on top of that DE knows the veterans have the ability to make it however much fun/challenge they want it to be for themselves.

Would you then focus on stuff for that 2-6% of players?

Or maybe need to do something interesting with these people that never reach mr ranks 10, 15...

How increase the difficult and not nerf. 

 

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The game is challenging for some people. At max alert levels in free roam in the first base, I start dying with enemies around level 40.

Fortuna is fine for me. It'll be trickier for players that are less equipped than me. Keep this in mind when you ask for the base stats of enemies to be increased. Fortuna is on the second planet. "Sorties are on the second planet! Arbitrations are on the second planet!" Yeah, well new players don't have access to sorties, and they don't have access to arbitrations. We're not saying it's on the second planet for no reason - we're saying that new players can access it. They can get to Fortuna easily. They can't get to arbitrations and sorties, so those are irrelevant.

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3 minutes ago, (PS4)thowed said:

Sadly we won't get to experience it at all.  Our update will come with nerfs included.

Sadly you're mistaken. If you remove a surviability mod(or use the same mod with a lower rank) that's essentially the same experience. That's all there is to it. The nerf was damage only, that means you're not missing out on anything except enemies dealing more damage, which you can experience with less durability on your own frame. This doesn't work for builds without mods of that kind, so I'm sorry if you don't use them, but if you do, you can cut back to get the same experience.

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9 minutes ago, (PS4)thowed said:

Sadly we won't get to experience it at all.  Our update will come with nerfs included.

Really wish you could. Pre-nerf Fortuna was the best warframe content I've ever experienced. The post-nerf Fortuna is just Cetus 2.0.

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12 hours ago, (PS4)kfrancis902 said:

Since when do planets determine difficulty. The easiest boss is that dumb corpus soldier on a highe planet. Sorties happen on Venus, Nightmare missions happen on venus you can get difficult content on any planet. Your argument makes no sense.

Phobos is not even halfway through the star chart. Secondly, it certainly is an oversight on DE's behalf and I'm sure they'd rectify if given the chance. But of course they probably won't fix (improve) it anytime soon because then it would be another "content drought".

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