Can We Stop Catering to New Players?

[--PV--Arc]

3 minutes ago, CoolDudeMcCool said:

Sadly you're mistaken. If you remove a surviability mod(or use the same mod with a lower rank) that's essentially the same experience. That's all there is to it. The nerf was damage only, that means you're not missing out on anything except enemies dealing more damage, which you can experience with less durability on your own frame. This doesn't work for builds without mods of that kind, so I'm sorry if you don't use them, but if you do, you can cut back to get the same experience.

Artificially increasing the difficulty basically....

Strip yourself of your mods if you want to have fun otherwise go #*!% yourself if you want to have fun in your perfected builds. Which is exactly what was so good about pre-nerf fortuna. It was perfect...

[--PV--Arc]

On 2018-11-15 at 12:40 PM, Loswaith said:

This is the completely wrong attitude, veterans have all the power in their gear to make the game as easy or challenging as they desire.  This means we do have all the challenge we can possibly hope for with the gear, the game just isn't designed around using all that gear at the same time (though ROFL stomping stuff can be fun too now and again).

 

Look at it from DEs point of view.  If you look at steams percentage of achievements (given it is a percentage its likely similar across all ways to play) only 7.5% have reached mastery rank 10 (Seeker), 4.2% mastery rank 15 (Gold Hunter), 2.3% have reached mastery rank 20 (Silver Tiger).  Now if you remove the obvious hacked achievements of 1.2% (that apparently have gotten mastery rank 30), that leaves a very tiny percentage of players to spend essentially 6+ months of work for.

Now on top of that DE knows the veterans have the ability to make it however much fun/challenge they want it to be for themselves.

Would you then focus on stuff for that 2-6% of players?

Right so.... Cater to people who will not play the game ever again in a few weeks after the Fortuna hype has died now and it's not trending anymore on twitch and not the people who play daily.

 

Instead of creating even lower level bounties. DE has nerfed all of Fortuna. For everyone.

Edited November 16, 2018 by Arc2199

[CoolDudeMcCool]

4 minutes ago, Arc2199 said:

Artificially increasing the difficulty basically....

Strip yourself of your mods if you want to have fun otherwise go #*!% yourself if you want to have fun in your perfected builds. Which is exactly what was so good about pre-nerf fortuna. It was perfect...

Artificially increasing difficulty is removing mods so enemies deal more damage to you, but buffing enemy damage so enemies deal more damage to you isn't artificial difficulty?

Buff enemy damage = enemies do more damage = you are happy

Take off mod = enemies do more damage = you are not happy

Both options give you the exact same outcome, please stop being illogical.

[LSG501]

1 hour ago, (PS4)robi191291 said:

Or maybe need to do something interesting with these people that never reach mr ranks 10, 15... 

How increase the difficult and not nerf. 

 

You do know that MR doesn't actually mean squat in the game, all it does it unlock more options, it doesn't change the difficulty of the game or how strong the player is.  Outside rivens and login mods you can literally buy every mod fully ranked with plat if you have enough, it's not advisable but still.  

I've seen plenty of low level mr's better than high level mr's and the only reason they're not killing as quickly is because they don't have the mods available or levelled. 

 

As to the OP's issue, as much as 'long term players' might want DE to cater to them, we're not their target market anymore, we're not the ones supplying the majority of plat sales because we can trade to the newbies who are buying plat.  From a financial and business driven standpoint we are just not that important.

 

9 minutes ago, CoolDudeMcCool said:

Artificially increasing difficulty is removing mods so enemies deal more damage to you, but buffing enemy damage so enemies deal more damage to you isn't artificial difficulty? 

Buff enemy damage = enemies do more damage = you are happy

Take off mod = enemies do more damage = you are not happy

Both options give you the exact same outcome, please stop being illogical.

But you're forgetting the important part... one is catering to a minority player base (yes high level players are) who refuses to downgrade their overpowered meta builds, likely with arcanes and rivens, to get the increased difficulty they 'want' while at the same time screaming about the game difficulty being 'too easy'...  it doesn't matter that a majority of players in the game will be affected who do not have the overpowered meta builds as long as the 'veteran' doesn't need to take off a mod or two...as you say it makes perfect sense lol. 

Edited November 16, 2018 by LSG501

[O2D3nTe]

1 minute ago, CoolDudeMcCool said:

Artificially increasing difficulty is removing mods so enemies deal more damage to you, but buffing enemy damage so enemies deal more damage to you isn't artificial difficulty? 

Buff enemy damage = enemies do more damage = you are happy 

Take off mod = enemies do more damage = you are not happy 

Both options give you the exact same outcome, please stop being illogical.

I've always wondered if people with your "logic" are missing the point on purpose. The game is about collecting frames/weapons/mods and level them up. Forma is also an important aspect. The obvious and logical outcome is for people to use those things and make better builds. Your solution is basically to discard that and not use any of the things players are grinding toward.

There is obviously an issue if the solution to not enough challenge is to discard half the content in the game.

[CoolDudeMcCool]

Just now, O2D3nTe said:

I've always wondered if people with your "logic" are missing the point on purpose. The game is about collecting frames/weapons/mods and level them up. Forma is also an important aspect. The obvious and logical outcome is for people to use those things and make better builds. Your solution is basically to discard that and not use any of the things players are grinding toward.

There is obviously an issue if the solution to not enough challenge is to discard half the content in the game.

People with my "logic" think that self-nerfing is not the answer(I've said that today I think, not that I expect you to dig through my posts) - except in this one situation. In this one unique situation, DE has reduced the damage numbers of an enemy. Some people miss that experience. But in this one unique situation, they can get that experience back by taking off a mod or reducing its level. You still get to use your frame, your weapons, your companion, it's just one mod in this one situation. 

If someone wants better AI, or unique tactics, or anything like that, I'm not going to tell them just to take a mod off of their frame, that does not give them what they're asking for. But that's not what people are asking for here, they're asking for an experience that can be provided by taking off a mod. I'm giving them the answer they need but don't want, take off a mod and things will be the same as they were before, roughly speaking. Nobody has told me it won't work out exactly as I'm saying it does, they seem opposed to getting exactly what they want for some reason.

I guess if your investment into a single mod is so high that you won't take it off to get what you want in this one special circumstance, well then I have nothing to say to you really. Well I do, stop asking for the pre-nerf stats and start asking for something to give you more of a challenge that doesn't effect people who don't want that challenge.

[LSG501]

3 minutes ago, O2D3nTe said:

I've always wondered if people with your "logic" are missing the point on purpose. The game is about collecting frames/weapons/mods and level them up. Forma is also an important aspect. The obvious and logical outcome is for people to use those things and make better builds. Your solution is basically to discard that and not use any of the things players are grinding toward.

There is obviously an issue if the solution to not enough challenge is to discard half the content in the game.

The game is not designed around a minority subset of the playerbase who have everything, the game is built around the majority of players who are still collecting a lot of stuff in the game and as such will not have the overpowered meta builds that 'end gamers' will have. 

[Colyeses]

2 minutes ago, O2D3nTe said:

I've always wondered if people with your "logic" are missing the point on purpose. The game is about collecting frames/weapons/mods and level them up. Forma is also an important aspect. The obvious and logical outcome is for people to use those things and make better builds. Your solution is basically to discard that and not use any of the things players are grinding toward.

There is obviously an issue if the solution to not enough challenge is to discard half the content in the game.

Stat changes aren't 'content'. 

It's not 'content' if a weapon suddenly gets a bit more crit chance, unless that weapon moves from 'unusable' to 'viable'. 

The difference in gameplay between 'with serration' and 'without serration' is just that the latter is much more difficult because your damage output is lower. That's not a 'content' difference unless, once again, it changes if something is playable or not. 

What is the value in better builds if they don't make you stronger? Are you really stronger if your enemies scale at the same rate? Does anything change for you if, when your damage doubles, your enemies' HP also doubles?

You're basically complaining that you succeeded in exactly what you set out to do, and that DE must compensate for that by making content more difficult for -everyone-, again, potentially locking stuff of from people who cannot or do not want to invest as much effort into maximising their builds. Why do other people need to adjust to -your- needs, rather than you adjusting to -their- needs?

[Sziklamester]

Venus is the second planet what players could reach and the level requirements on Fortuna should display this. If you do longer runs it should be harder and harder but in the first run it was broken because the enemies were harder than their level so the devs fixed that. The problem with the game itself is the challenge comes later if you want that. This is fine casual or semi hardcore players because they are free to leave when they want but for hardcore players it seems needs more frustration and stress to complete the missions somehow. The only thing what I can say is the Kingpin system which is shelved currently but instantly could solve the challenge problems since you and your warlord can change every spec on the game mode what you wish to play.

The Fortuna supposed to be newbie or advanced player friendly. I don't have problems with Fortuna right now but those whom needs challenge needs to undergear themself currently other than this they should ask different difficulity levels on each place. Just like how nightmare mode exist they could just simply add extra difficulties to each places from the first planets to the last ones and on void then you can play instantly on that level what you wants.

Still the enemy AI needs to be updated and become more tactful. The braindead hard and cakewalk level AI is bad for this game so the devs needs to achieve a medium between these and this is not mean they need to make bulletsponge mobs to achieve it. If they add weakspot and shield gating then everyone would cry how hard the game become. Those stuffs does not work in this kind of game.

So again, Kingpin. 

 

[Boondokz]

18 hours ago, low1991 said:

New players can wander in, what's there to stop these players from coming in? Like they would know it's a massive grind wall, and not all read wiki/info about the game before jumping in.

New players can go there and enjoythemselves and I wont take that away from them. But how does going to PoE and Vallis help them progress? Im not saying everyone is looking to progress, but if they want to be stronger and experience everything it is a better idea to return later, after clearing the map and unlocking things that will actually help you. The only thing for new players might be kitguns/zaws but considering the rep requirment is locked due to MR, again I return to there is nothing there  until later. Unless they just want the fun.

[(PSN)obsidiancurse]

Can players stop watching life of Rio videos and then regurgitate his ramblings into topics?

[Eisdschungel]

vor 16 Minuten schrieb (PS4)obsidiancurse:

Can players stop watching life of Rio videos and then regurgitate his ramblings into topics?

Can players stop assuming i watch a Youtuber coz i seem to share his opinion and not theirs? But Thanks for the tip, now Ill go and Check what Rio has to say about this Topic.  Cya in 15 min

P.S.: there is no reason to not get a higher difficulty Level 6th or 7th bounty

Edited November 16, 2018 by Eisdschungel

[DreisterDino]

vor 3 Minuten schrieb Eisdschungel:

P.S.: there is no reason to Not get a higher difficulty Level 6th or 7th bounty

Im just gonna pretend now that i care for new players and say "new players cant do it".

The true reason is that i am too lazy to actually play the game and if i can get something the easy way, i dont want anything to get a little harder.

But dont tell anybody.

 

 

 

Ps: I am not serious with this, but since it seems that it is ok to just assume what other people really think instead of actually listen to what they have to say,

i thought i give this method a try aswell. I dont feel productive right now, but who cares if you can make other people look bad, right?

[FlusteredFerret]

On 2018-11-14 at 10:38 AM, Boondokz said:

Even doing as you say is pointless. They cut the enemies damage in half. So it is pointlessly easy now. The fact that it is on Venus shouldnt matter, in fact new players shouldnt be there to begin with. What will they gain?

Venus can be the 2nd planet new(er) players go to. You can unlock the Venus & Mars junctions pretty quickly if you're halfway decent. Therefore it won't take long to reach Fortuna.

Just like PoE, Fortuna & Orb Vallis is intended to be a place for ALL PLAYERS to farm resources, level gear up etc.

It was NEVER intended to be end-game content for veterans...so you all really ought to stop whining about the fact its not. Its new content aimed at attracting more players.

 

Even now, the Corpus are significantly tougher than the Grineer at each bounty level. While I agree there ought to be some higher level ones, to match the top bounties on PoE, (maybe even harder?), the lowest ones should be achievable by newer players, therefore the nerf was appropriate.

 

Edited November 16, 2018 by FlusteredFerret

[O2D3nTe]

1 hour ago, Colyeses said:

Stat changes aren't 'content'. 

It's not 'content' if a weapon suddenly gets a bit more crit chance, unless that weapon moves from 'unusable' to 'viable'. 

The difference in gameplay between 'with serration' and 'without serration' is just that the latter is much more difficult because your damage output is lower. That's not a 'content' difference unless, once again, it changes if something is playable or not.  

What is the value in better builds if they don't make you stronger? Are you really stronger if your enemies scale at the same rate? Does anything change for you if, when your damage doubles, your enemies' HP also doubles?

You're basically complaining that you succeeded in exactly what you set out to do, and that DE must compensate for that by making content more difficult for -everyone-, again, potentially locking stuff of from people who cannot or do not want to invest as much effort into maximising their builds. Why do other people need to adjust to -your- needs, rather than you adjusting to -their- needs? 

Every single game out there is doing progression in the form of better gear, aka better stats. And all games have low level content and high level content. Progression through gear is the norm but you're all talking as if it's some kind of evil thing invented by a handful of angry veterans on Warframe to mess up with people who can't play 100h a week.

Look at The division, where you progress through getting better stuff, or Destiny 2 where your gear level determine what kind of content you can play or not. No one is screaming at those systems, and they're much more linear than Warframe. Reaching end game builds on Warframe with one frame, a primary and a secondary is easier than it is in all those games. The hard part in Warframe would be to get everything to that level. Do you also think World of Warcraft is the most unfair game to exist ? After all it used to require spending an insane amount of time to simply level up your character, then you could actually start dungeons, to get stuffed for raids. Raids were completely out of reach for new players.

A fully modded loadout is accessible in Warframe, and even without the full set of primed mods it's still worthy of the end game title. Asking for end game content is not asking for content that cater to the 0.01% of players that have invested enormous amount of time, it's asking for content that every player will reach in a decent amount of time with at least 1 frame and a few weapons.

That last sentence is silly. I could do the same and revert it and it sounds exactly the same: Why should I adjust to MR0 players rather than them adjusting to me ? It's not any smarter or dumber, it's a pointless statement for a problem that shouldn't be one.

Warframe has no high level content, people have been asking for one for years. We have years of update and content meant for lower level players, surely at some point it's only fair to get something for higher level also ?

The discussion should never exist in the first place. DE could simply do the logical and easy thing, and simply offer a wider range of difficulty to begin with. They design the game, they know what frames and weapons are capable of, so how come they can't offer something to people who have good setups ? It's a video game, it can be anything, it doesn't have to be either low level or high level, it can offer both for a minimal effort.

By the way, I have logged in 160 days, I'm pretty sure I'm not a veteran by any metrics. I'm simply astonished to see people who seem to be against any form of content for higher level players, while at the same time accusing those same higher level player to be selfish because they want "to lock out new players from the content". Double standard much ?

[CoolDudeMcCool]

4 minutes ago, O2D3nTe said:

Warframe has no high level content, people have been asking for one for years. We have years of update and content meant for lower level players, surely at some point it's only fair to get something for higher level also ?

Arbitrations.

[Culaio]

4 minutes ago, CoolDudeMcCool said:

Arbitrations.

It takes too long to actually get difficulty and I am saying it as person who doesnt use any rivens(I believe their existance is a mistake) and who doesnt really use arcanes, Another problem is that sometimes people leave after just getting one reward.

Arbitations arent difficulty just time consuming.

Edited November 16, 2018 by Culaio

[CoolDudeMcCool]

Just now, Culaio said:

It takes too long to actually get difficulty and I am saying it as person who doesnt use any rivens(I believe their existance is a mistake) and who doesnt really use arcanes, Another problem is that sometimes people leave after just getting one reward.

Arbitations arent difficulty just time consuming.

They said there's no high level content aimed at vets, I'm not saying whether it's actually good or not, but it's not like DE hasn't done anything for vets.

[Colyeses]

6 minutes ago, O2D3nTe said:

Look at The division, where you progress through getting better stuff, or Destiny 2 where your gear level determine what kind of content you can play or not.

Destiny 2 is a very good example of how to make progression feel pointless. As your power rating scales up, so does that of your enemies, which result in a stalemate. A power rating 50 cannon will deal 80% of a power rating 50 mook's max HP on a bodyshot. A power rating 100 cannon will deal 80% of a power rating 100 mook's max HP on a bodyshot. And as your power rating increases, so does that of the enemies you regularly face. The result is that nothing happens. 

8 minutes ago, O2D3nTe said:

That last sentence is silly. I could do the same and revert it and it sounds exactly the same: Why should I adjust to MR0 players rather than them adjusting to me ? It's not any smarter or dumber, it's a pointless statement for a problem that shouldn't be one.

There is a difference, actually. And that is that lower end players cannot always adjust to higher end content, but higher end players CAN adjust to lower end content. This whole thread is just people saying "I want to bring my absolute best gear but not curbstomp everything.".

Take worse gear. Strip off some mods. Experiment with something new. You can make the game challenging for yourself. 

10 minutes ago, O2D3nTe said:

The discussion should never exist in the first place. DE could simply do the logical and easy thing, and simply offer a wider range of difficulty to begin with.

And when the arbitrations were launched, the big concerns were if the loot pool would be worthwhile. This is why high difficulty stuff complicates things far more than people give it credit. If the rewards for super hard mode are the same as for normal mode, no one will play super hard mode. And then you'll get complaints about the reward tables. You fix the reward tables, and now you're gating content too much.

Not to mention the time that would have to be invested in making these modes because numerical inflation isn't nearly enough due to how broken a fully min-maxed build can get. And that would be time and effort spent on content that a good chunk of players could not enjoy, as opposed to making content that everyone can enjoy.

The thing is, these high-end players are constantly complaining that DE needs to make a challenge for them, but never, at any point, want to build their own challenge. This is a mess they made themselves, and now they're telling others to pay the tab. I'm not okay with that.

[O2D3nTe]

3 minutes ago, CoolDudeMcCool said:

Arbitrations.

I have yet to die in an Arbitration. I haven't gone past 1h15 though, but I think the enemies stop scaling in that mode (not completely sure here).

I'm not trying to brag, because it's not just me, a lot of people can breeze through those. If anything Arbitrations are part of the problem. DE advertised it as end game content, but half assed it completely when it comes to actual difficulty. Two options here:

1) They don't understand how strong some setups are and what kind of difficulty players can handle. That seems unlikely, I don't think they're stupid, it's their game, they know what you can do with it.

2) They have no intention to offer really challenging content because they want to keep the content easily accessible. Accessible and challenging are polar opposite. I'm not asking them to make everything hardcore, but at one point they'll have to make something not easily accessible if it's going to offer a real challenge to people with fully moded setups.

But the worst is, the whole thing could be solved easily by copying what other games are doing. Copy The division. You get through the map once, and when you're done, you can re-do the content but with higher difficulty enemies. Something as simple as that would offer all the content we need (the entire star chart) with higher level enemies for those who are into it. No one has to lose a single piece of content, it's relevant for newer players, and stay relevant to more seasoned players through increased difficulty, and higher difficulty is completely optional.

[ElGuirrix]

Would it be that hard to simply add a modifier to bounty 5 for enemies to deal more damage? Even if it just makes then go back to the pre-nerf state.

I mean, they're level 40-60, new players shouldn't be doing that anyways. You don't get to that level range until you go through the entire star chart, which means you already have access to the farm locations of most things that can make you stronger.

Furthermore, the rewards of bounty 5 have overall good drop chances for debt bonds and axi relics so people who don't really enjoy that type of thing won't even have to do it much if they really want to get rank 5 in Fortuna (note that familial bonds are only used in getting to rank 5, while Garuda, Moas and Kitguns require rank 4 and 3 respectively to get everything out of them), and it's not like we never had any mode specifically designed to have enemies that deal more damage. Remember old void T4 missions?

And having tougher content down the road is a goal to work towards, so you are incited to go through the game and get stronger, which is the entire point of the modding system for what it does.

[Chappie]

6 minutes ago, O2D3nTe said:

But the worst is, the whole thing could be solved easily by copying what other games are doing. Copy The division. You get through the map once, and when you're done, you can re-do the content but with higher difficulty enemies. Something as simple as that would offer all the content we need (the entire star chart) with higher level enemies for those who are into it. No one has to lose a single piece of content, it's relevant for newer players, and stay relevant to more seasoned players through increased difficulty, and higher difficulty is completely optional.

I did the division as well....the difficulty at the end was hoping RNG would favor you the drops to create the min/max build which would trivialize the content anyways.   Once you min/maxed there..the only threat was your own brain in making decisions like "hold my beer, watch this".    The division was also worse in that it really did force "meta" in that some builds were so #*!%ing strong that everyone used them.   They tried to fix this but it always result in other changes that resulted in a new "broken build".   The division still ended up in a decent place IMO...but still has a ton of warts.  

IMO, the beauty of the division was campaign.   Very rare you find a 20-30 hour period of time where you ache for more power and it i just out of reach vs what you are playing.   That was great until you managed to actually see under the hood of the mechanics and said "oh".  

[Culaio]

1 minute ago, CoolDudeMcCool said:

They said there's no high level content aimed at vets, I'm not saying whether it's actually good or not, but it's not like DE hasn't done anything for vets.

I want to point out that its DE who is responsible for power creep, now its them who should provide content for players after this power creep.

We need to remember that content drough hit the hardest veterans not new players, veterans were suffering to get content that wasnt aimed at them.

Dont get me wrong, I am not saying new players should be excluded from fortuna/orb vallis stuff but there should areas in orb vallis aimed at veteran players, it would be a good thing for both new and veteran players, reason why it would be good for new players is because it would give new players a goal toward which they could work, when I was starting game I was playing once in a few days but eventually I found myself a goal, in my case it was first vaulting and my realization I wont be able to get that prime and I didnt know when it would return so I finally decided to get it, I worked hard for it and I got it(they were if I am not mistake my first primes) and after that I decided I wanted more prime and thats what started my path toward being veteran, I believe that its important for new players to have goals in the game, something to work toward to, this will help them advance from being new players into veterans.

 

[SneakyErvin]

People are exaggerating the nerf to the mobs.

None of it was an issue prior to the nerf if you farmed toroids, the mobs that got nerfed werent what made the alert levels "hectic". It was all of the untouched mobs that are still as strong as they were before, as they should be. The nerfed mobs were simply an annoyance layer in addition to the other mobs, which they still are and nothing more.

The nerf really only changed bounties to ease the grind for newer or undergeared loadouts. I havent noticed any difference whatsoever, but that might be because I didnt find them to be an issue in the first place unless accompanied by massive amounts of hyenas, orbs and jackals aswell.

[CoolDudeMcCool]

18 minutes ago, Culaio said:

I want to point out that its DE who is responsible for power creep, now its them who should provide content for players after this power creep.

And what if the simple answer is that they can't? Will people be willing to have DE nerf their gear, instead of self-nerfs? Again, I don't think self-nerfing is the answer, but what if the only other option is DE doing it?

19 minutes ago, Culaio said:

We need to remember that content drough hit the hardest veterans not new players, veterans were suffering to get content that wasnt aimed at them.

What DE tries just never really works out, Arbitrations, ESO, people still complain that it's not the right challenge. Maybe it's not that the content is bad(well I'm sure it has problems too) but vets are just too powerful. I understand wanting to be able to use all of the gear you worked hard to get, but when it's use less of that gear or have DE themselves make it weaker, which is better?

21 minutes ago, Culaio said:

Dont get me wrong, I am not saying new players should be excluded from fortuna/orb vallis stuff but there should areas in orb vallis aimed at veteran players, it would be a good thing for both new and veteran players, reason why it would be good for new players is because it would give new players a goal toward which they could work, when I was starting game I was playing once in a few days but eventually I found myself a goal, in my case it was first vaulting and my realization I wont be able to get that prime and I didnt know when it would return so I finally decided to get it, I worked hard for it and I got it(they were if I am not mistake my first primes) and after that I decided I wanted more prime and thats what started my path toward being veteran, I believe that its important for new players to have goals in the game, something to work toward to, this will help them advance from being new players into veterans.

 

Threat levels are the solution, imo. Not veteran-only areas - areas that are harder? Sure, I'm down with that. But nothing like enemies doing more damage than normal or additional modifiers, save that for threat levels. If threat levels offer challenge, then vets can do all of the content while having a challenge.