Can We Stop Catering to New Players?

[NovusNova]

Arbitations and ESO were attempts to give "veterans" something to use their powered up gear on, whether they were successful or not is debatable but they were aimed at "veterans" as you can't just make a new account, complete the tutorial and jump straight into them. ESO requires that you do at least some missions and level up, Arbitations requires every single node on the star chart to be completed.

Sure they could give higher level bounties or bounties with enemies that do more damage, but most that do complain about "end game" complain that the enemies die too quickly to be a challenge to them so its not worth doing along with ramp up time that it takes to get to that point where they become a "challenge" to "end-game" players.

Higher level bounties just mean enemies with bigger health and armour pool which people hate.

Giving enemies higher damage won't matter if you can just crowd control them forever and then kill them in a single shot or they kill you in a single shot.

They could give immunites to certain abilities or reduce the effectiveness of certain crowd control abilities but most in the community would go insane if that was ever considered.

Maybe the Orb mother's encounters that are coming could be the challenge you seek or until people figure out the mechanics and make builds specifically to one shot them, like Eidolons.

Of course this isn't going into the issue of rewards, which a lot of people cite as their only reason for doing certain missions, as at the moment most high level missions give the same resources as lower level ones, what would be satisfactory as an endgame reward to someone that has everything and just wants a challenge?

They tried special mods and cosmetics in Arbitations along with special mods and vandal weapons in ESO but seems that wasn't what people wanted.

What would be an adequate reward for the challenge you want or would you be fine with no special rewards? 

10 minutes ago, Culaio said:

I want to point out that its DE who is responsible for power creep, now its them who should provide content for players after this power creep.

They may have made the power creep but all attempts to "tame" it with reworks have been met with bashing, insults, toxicity, boycott attempts.

The community wants "challenge" but goes insane at any attempts to "nerf" us to bring inline to make that challenge not "go as long as you can until they one shot you or have insane health and armour pools" and make it more about the mechanics of the fight.

Why make a fight at "end-game" with interesting enemy mechanics when I can just spend 25 energy and make them stand still for 30 seconds or more and completely defeat the "challenge" of the fight?

Buffing the enemies isn't always the answer, we may have to accept a reduction in power before you can have "challenging end-game content".

Without a rework to both enemies and player abilities to make all frames usable (not just crowd control ones), I don't think there can be meaningful endgame when you can turn off the enemy AI all day long. 

[Culaio]

22 minutes ago, CoolDudeMcCool said:

And what if the simple answer is that they can't? Will people be willing to have DE nerf their gear, instead of self-nerfs? Again, I don't think self-nerfing is the answer, but what if the only other option is DE doing it?

Well they have to because power creep is going to get worse with time, I mean we know there are some new systems coming in the future that will make players even stronger, maybe not sure but its going to happen eventually, like procedurally generated super weapons or the "alchemy" system Steve mentioned long time ago on his stream.

25 minutes ago, CoolDudeMcCool said:

What DE tries just never really works out, Arbitrations, ESO, people still complain that it's not the right challenge. Maybe it's not that the content is bad(well I'm sure it has problems too) but vets are just too powerful. I understand wanting to be able to use all of the gear you worked hard to get, but when it's use less of that gear or have DE themselves make it weaker, which is better?

The thing is that their attempts failed to achieve what players hoped for, ironically DE fuilfiled the criteria of what people wanted to see, in orb vallis, only to nerf it soon after. well at least now DE should know what kind of criteria they need to fulfil to satisfy players.It would be great if DE given us this level of difficulty somewhere.

 

32 minutes ago, CoolDudeMcCool said:

Threat levels are the solution, imo. Not veteran-only areas - areas that are harder? Sure, I'm down with that. But nothing like enemies doing more damage than normal or additional modifiers, save that for threat levels. If threat levels offer challenge, then vets can do all of the content while having a challenge.

I dont understand why you are against higher their areas, its extremly common in games to have areas that are harder where you higher level players go, hell warframe itself has this with higher difficulty planets.

 

29 minutes ago, NovusNova said:

They may have made the power creep but all attempts to "tame" it with reworks have been met with bashing, insults, toxicity, boycott attempts.

The community wants "challenge" but goes insane at any attempts to "nerf" us to bring inline to make that challenge not "go as long as you can until they one shot you or have insane health and armour pools" and make it more about the mechanics of the fight.

Why make a fight at "end-game" with interesting enemy mechanics when I can just spend 25 energy and make them stand still for 30 seconds or more and completely defeat the "challenge" of the fight?

Buffing the enemies isn't always the answer, we may have to accept a reduction in power before you can have "challenging end-game content".

Without a rework to both enemies and player abilities to make all frames usable (not just crowd control ones), I don't think there can be meaningful endgame when you can turn off the enemy AI all day long. 

DE absolutely doesnt deserve this treatment but fact is that their attempts failed, and pref-nerf orb vallis shown that it is possible to fulfil the criteria what people are asking for, people literally got what they were asking for.

[Atsia]

6 minutes ago, Culaio said:

Well they have to because power creep is going to get worse with time, I mean we know there are some new systems coming in the future that will make players even stronger, maybe not sure but its going to happen eventually, like procedurally generated super weapons or the "alchemy" system Steve mentioned long time ago on his stream.

The thing is that their attempts failed to achieve what players hoped for, ironically DE fuilfiled the criteria of what people wanted to see, in orb vallis, only to nerf it soon after. well at least now DE should know what kind of criteria they need to fulfil to satisfy players.It would be great if DE given us this level of difficulty somewhere.

 

I dont understand why you are against higher their areas, its extremly common in games to have areas that are harder where you higher level players go, hell warframe itself has this with higher difficulty planets.

 

DE absolutely doesnt deserve this treatment but fact is that their attempts failed, and pref-nerf orb vallis shown that it is possible to fulfil the criteria what people are asking for, people literally got what they were asking for.

Then people shouldn't be complaining about there being no challenge cause pre-change enemies were just doing what the already do, more numerical damage, which is almost 100% agreed upon as NOT actually being challenging. There were no unique mechanics, no real difficulty, just inflated damage numbers.

[DreisterDino]

vor 59 Minuten schrieb NovusNova:

 

Sure they could give higher level bounties or bounties with enemies that do more damage, but most that do complain about "end game" complain that the enemies die too quickly to be a challenge to them so its not worth doing along with ramp up time that it takes to get to that point where they become a "challenge" to "end-game" players.

 

Well, whatever the reason is, there are lots of people who enjoyed the pre-hotfix 24.04 type of combat in Fortuna.

Yes, dmg and hp of enemies is not everything, but they play a role and i think in Fortuna, this 2 elements combined with the new abilities and new enemytypes was what actually made it enjoyable and interesting for us. Now, they have only taken dmg away, but it seems this has been enough so the other elements dont matter anymore really.

Its always a combination of many factors, and it seems pre-hotfix all those factors worked together really well.

Now, if you remove just one of those factors, the whole formula gets messed.

 

Besides that, i agree with everything you say on rewards (i think there is no possible reward thats really working forever although some might say "kuva", but that will lose its purpose for a player sooner or later just like any other ressource imo). I also agree that with all the abilities we have, it might be hard to create something challenging and restrictions sometimes might be helping there (but again, it seemed like pre 24.0.4 design of bountys was already in a good position even without nerfing us).

 

Lastly i wanna say (just once again, i am sorry to repeat myself) that i hate the term endgame being used in this case.

None of the people that created topics about this issue used that word,  and i also didnt see anyone who replies that liked the prehotfix bounties using that term.

That term was mostly used by the people that prefer the change and use it as an counterargument "its not supposed to be endgame" - we know, we dont want it to be endgame, we just liked what we had before the hotfix, thats all. As if anyone would seriously see bountys as an endgame anyway.

Edited November 16, 2018 by DreisterDino

[NovusNova]

30 minutes ago, DreisterDino said:

Lastly i wanna say (just once again, i am sorry to repeat myself) that i hate the term endgame being used in this case.

None of the people that created topics about this issue used that word,  and i also didnt see anyone who replies that liked the prehotfix bounties using that term.

That term was mostly used by the people that prefer the change and use it as an counterargument "its not supposed to be endgame" - we know, we dont want it to be endgame, we just liked what we had before the hotfix, thats all. As if anyone would seriously see bountys as an endgame anyway.

Fair enough, I was using the term as DE's intended challenge level seems to be at max around 150, with Arbitations being added, before 80-120 with sorties and people want at least that level in bounty 5 if not higher.

Anything around that or higher is "end-game" to me as its the highest level the developers intend for you to go up against, the endless missions that scale beyond that are just a bonus.

[ElGuirrix]

1 hour ago, NovusNova said:

Sure they could give higher level bounties or bounties with enemies that do more damage, but most that do complain about "end game" complain that the enemies die too quickly to be a challenge to them so its not worth doing along with ramp up time that it takes to get to that point where they become a "challenge" to "end-game" players.

Higher level bounties just mean enemies with bigger health and armour pool which people hate.

In this particular case, Fortuna being the topic, I don't think the term "endgame" should even be considered, not for the bounties that is. The thing is that challenge and endgame, are not and have no reason to be the same thing. There have been several topics complaining about this nerf ever since it happened, and most of them, at least the ones I've read, coincide in that the pre-nerf state of the enemies during the higher level bounties felt challenging, which I'm inclined to believe it's due to a combination of the moderately high health pool that enemies had and still have, coupled with a good damage output that actually give enemies a chance to deal with us and the unique abilities that almost every enemy in Fortuna possesses.

Again, these people referred mostly to a "challenge", not "endgame". The enemy level in bounty 5 is 40-60, and given that there are several gamemodes with higher level, that shouldn't be considered endgame at all, instead, it's just challenging, harder than usual, a level range that is not too hard with scaling and not too easy to just stand there, turn the camera around and shoot. With the danger of being attacked by enemies who can actually down you, you're morelikely than not to pay attention to your surroundings, which is specially true for Fortuna due to enemies spawning from many different angles and not just one corridor like in regular missions.

Furthermore, it's the corpus we're talking about, who are in the middle regarding scaling. Their shields offer a good health pool but most of their units with the exception of minibosses, who are meant to be harder to take down, don't have armor. And armor is by far what gives any given enemy the highest EHP, so, in other words, the enemies in Fortuna, at most levels without letting them scale for a while with the alert level maxed, are going to be reasonable to be dealt with by anyone who should be fighting that level of enemies.

And lastly, for those who are particularily thinking of the endgame, they do have the option of letting enemies scale, since they can get pretty far, but I don't think people who want a challenge and people who want endgame should be assumed to be in the same category and proposed the same solution.

1 hour ago, NovusNova said:

Giving enemies higher damage won't matter if you can just crowd control them forever and then kill them in a single shot or they kill you in a single shot.

They could give immunites to certain abilities or reduce the effectiveness of certain crowd control abilities but most in the community would go insane if that was ever considered.

This is very true, crowd control can usually neglect and outright prevent enemies from doing anything, but have in mind that not every frame has the ability to lock down the entire map, less so in an enviroment like Fortuna where the area in which enemies spawn is inherently bigger, and not every builds their frames solely for crowd control.

The option is there, and the people who purposedly build their frames for CC are going to use said CC, and not necessarily just at high levels, they could just bring a CC build anywhere and use it regardless because they chose that style of play, but that doesn't mean every will do that, less so with the variety of frames that we currently have.

I do also agree completely on the rewards part, it's a tough topic.

I do however agree that inmunities to crowd control and such would indeed be bad overall since that won't just affect people who use CC exclusively, but also those who, such as myself, use it ocassionally, wether be it to revive an ally of get out of a tough spot.

[CoolDudeMcCool]

50 minutes ago, Culaio said:

I dont understand why you are against higher their areas, its extremly common in games to have areas that are harder where you higher level players go, hell warframe itself has this with higher difficulty planets.

I'd just like to come back to this real quick. Threat levels are better than specific areas being harder. You would be able to have the entire map be difficult, instead of a few areas. Why are you against being able to play all of Fortuna as difficult as you want? It's already a feature - threat levels - it just seems that it's not enough to make some people happy. So DE just needs to make an adjustment to them and voila.

5 minutes ago, ElGuirrix said:

-huge post-

You have to keep in mind that people like me do feel challenged on the hardest bounties. For me, they're right where they should be - maybe even a bit harder than I can handle at times. That's with no threat levels too. Challenge and endgame aren't the same thing, but sometimes people won't find challenge outside of endgame content. At least when that content is balanced for people who aren't at endgame to be able to complete.

Edited November 16, 2018 by CoolDudeMcCool

[-CoCo-Huntress]

hace 5 horas, (PS4)robi191291 dijo:

Or maybe need to do something interesting with these people that never reach mr ranks 10, 15...

How increase the difficult and not nerf. 

 

True. So far, everyone I've seen quitting Warframe did so because it was too easy. MR2-5 saying so and leaving.
If they wanted to atract and keep new players, they would make a guide or something to explain the game to new players. The way this is done right now, by asking other players, is so bad. Is not efficient, is tedious, most of the time unreliable, and endless.

[(PSN)FriendSharkey]

It feels like Steve needs to work on secondary Star Map underlying the original..something like how Earth and Lua are separated in difficulty...but it feels like Veterans of all five years are really in need of the TAU Star Map meant to challenge them and soon...

[ModernGreg]

No.  New players keep the game alive. Besides, Venus is just the second planet. 1,5 years ago when I first started playing this gane I would have loved it if this confusing and overwhelming game had held my hand a bit more. 

[ElGuirrix]

4 minutes ago, CoolDudeMcCool said:

You have to keep in mind that people like me do feel challenged on the hardest bounties. For me, they're right where they should be - maybe even a bit harder than I can handle at times. That's with no threat levels too. Challenge and endgame aren't the same thing, but sometimes people won't find challenge outside of endgame content. At least when that content is balanced for people who aren't at endgame to be able to complete.

That's understandable, and I am open to suggestions, because in the best scenario everyone can have something to do that suits their thing. Even if it's another bounty, difficulty setting or whatever, just to give the people that enjoyed that added spike that was, of course, higher than usual for that level, what they enjoyed. Because, even if the solution were to be a sixth bounty at the same level but with enemies that hit harder, at that point in the game you already more likely than not are able to access many places where you can get stronger and prepare on the go for that sort of thing.

Not to say the nerf wasn't called for though, numerically they were doing too much damage at their base and many could have trouble with that, I just think that for some it would've been better if the nerf didn't go as far as halving the damage output of several of the nerfed enemies, or if simply their was an alternative with a bit higher numbers.

[NovusNova]

14 minutes ago, ElGuirrix said:

I do however agree that inmunities to crowd control and such would indeed be bad overall since that won't just affect people who use CC exclusively, but also those who, such as myself, use it ocassionally, wether be it to revive an ally of get out of a tough spot.

Maybe instead of a straight immunity, it could be like the nullifiers (destroy drone to bring down bubble) or Comba and Scrambus (shoot off face plat to disable their nullify ability) units, where you can remove the immunity to the CC abilities (or other abilities) by doing a certain action, such as shooting a specific part of the enemy when its vulnerable, similar to DE's "weak point" idea however you'd still be able to damage the enemy in general, just not CC them until you dealt with the item/ tech preventing the ability.

That sentient drone/ platform that the corpus used in the Valkyr Prime trailer to temporarily disable Valkyr Prime might be a good fit.

[CoolDudeMcCool]

Just now, ElGuirrix said:

That's understandable, and I am open to suggestions, because in the best scenario everyone can have something to do that suits their thing. Even if it's another bounty, difficulty setting or whatever, just to give the people that enjoyed that added spike that was, of course, higher than usual for that level, what they enjoyed. Because, even if the solution were to be a sixth bounty at the same level but with enemies that hit harder, at that point in the game you already more likely than not are able to access many places where you can get stronger and prepare on the go for that sort of thing.

Not to say the nerf wasn't called for though, numerically they were doing too much damage at their base and many could have trouble with that, I just think that for some it would've been better if the nerf didn't go as far as halving the damage output of several of the nerfed enemies, or if simply their was an alternative with a bit higher numbers.

I think the solution is making threat levels more difficult, or adding onto them, anything really. But the system is in place to allow vets to make their content harder in Fortuna, it just needs to be made better for them. Maybe keeping all four beacons active brings back the old damage(and beacons have to be manually destroyed with the use key instead of damage, but last a little longer before taking effect or something), for example.

[ElGuirrix]

2 minutes ago, NovusNova said:

Maybe instead of a straight immunity, it could be like the nullifiers (destroy drone to bring down bubble) or Comba and Scrambus (shoot off face plat to disable their nullify ability) units, where you can remove the immunity to the CC abilities (or other abilities) by doing a certain action, such as shooting a specific part of the enemy when its vulnerable, similar to DE's "weak point" idea however you'd still be able to damage the enemy in general, just not CC them until you dealt with the item/ tech preventing the ability.

That sentient drone/ platform that the corpus used in the Valkyr Prime trailer to temporarily disable Valkyr Prime might be a good fit.

Some like that would be very interesting, more so with how it seems they're exploring enemy abilities with Fortuna, since clearly these new corpus units are far different from their standard counterparts, more well made and focused on a gameplay that allow the enemies to have cc against us, but that we can deal with properly.

Something like what you say would probably keep fights more interesting as it'd generate target prioritization and to think how or who you should fight first to allow room for yourself to use your frame's powers to the best of their ability.

1 minute ago, CoolDudeMcCool said:

I think the solution is making threat levels more difficult, or adding onto them, anything really. But the system is in place to allow vets to make their content harder in Fortuna, it just needs to be made better for them. Maybe keeping all four beacons active brings back the old damage(and beacons have to be manually destroyed with the use key instead of damage, but last a little longer before taking effect or something), for example.

That'd be neat, specially if the player can have some sort of control over it, something they can do to either raise the alert level or get corpus attention faster to get into big fights sooner, because most of the times I try, it boils down to taking out one group of 4-5, waiting for the next, and the ocassional miniboss.

As well as something that allows players to keep the alert level high a bit longer if they want to. Cus another, you could say issue, that I find is that, say, if you want to change areas, the alert level will likely drop to zero if you went far, and you gotta start building up enemy levels all over again.

[Foefaller]

5 minutes ago, ElGuirrix said:

Some like that would be very interesting, more so with how it seems they're exploring enemy abilities with Fortuna, since clearly these new corpus units are far different from their standard counterparts, more well made and focused on a gameplay that allow the enemies to have cc against us, but that we can deal with properly.

Something like what you say would probably keep fights more interesting as it'd generate target prioritization and to think how or who you should fight first to allow room for yourself to use your frame's powers to the best of their ability.

Can't help but think about all the massive hate nullifiers and Combas/Scrambuses have gotten over the years, at least until they finally tied the former's bubble to a drone and made the latter's disabling ability a non-passive effect. When Fortuna first arrive, I was actually chalking up all the complaints about difficulty to people that had previously avoided anything Corpus to not face those things and didn't realise Corpus excell at Puncture damage which wrecks ferrite armor... which is what warframes have. Infested already have something similar with ancients, but I'm pretty sure there would be a lot of rage if the Grineer finally got something similar.

5 minutes ago, ElGuirrix said:

That'd be neat, specially if the player can have some sort of control over it, something they can do to either raise the alert level or get corpus attention faster to get into big fights sooner, because most of the times I try, it boils down to taking out one group of 4-5, waiting for the next, and the ocassional miniboss.

As well as something that allows players to keep the alert level high a bit longer if they want to. Cus another, you could say issue, that I find is that, say, if you want to change areas, the alert level will likely drop to zero if you went far, and you gotta start building up enemy levels all over again.

I've always let the alert level go up for the kill x of y bounty steps. In my experience it is the best way to ensure you finish it by the bonus objective time limit, especially if it is for a specific enemy type and not just any Corpus.

[ElGuirrix]

7 minutes ago, Foefaller said:

Can't help but think about all the massive hate nullifiers and Combas/Scrambuses have gotten over the years, at least until they finally tied the former's bubble to a drone and made the latter's disabling ability a non-passive effect. When Fortuna first arrive, I was actually chalking up all the complaints about difficulty to people that had previously avoided anything Corpus to not face those things and didn't realise Corpus excell at Puncture damage which wrecks ferrite armor... which is what warframes have. Infested already have something similar with ancients, but I'm pretty sure there would be a lot of rage if the Grineer finally got something similar.

I don't doubt that people would be pissed if there were more units capable of disabling us or buffing the enemies in some way. But to be honest, from my point of view, warframe is very lacking in that regard, except for the corpus maybe. The infested only really have the ancients, of which 2 of 3 do anything that hinders us, that being making enemies take less damage from weapons, abilities, and have reduced ability duration on them. The corpus have several of those in nullifiers, combas, scrambuses, bursas to an extent, and now some of the terra units, but then there's the grineer, who have nothing but the ocassional heavy unit which you shoot first and then move on. So if anything, the type of unit I'd like to see would have their own gimmick, but also their own weakness, which in general would be either killing those first or shooting a weakspot.

12 minutes ago, Foefaller said:

I've always let the alert level go up for the kill x of y bounty steps. In my experience it is the best way to ensure you finish it by the bonus objective time limit, especially if it is for a specific enemy type and not just any Corpus.

For the duration of the bounty, yes, you can do that quite easily by drawing a bit of attention and letting one or two beacons be placed. But I mean more in the way where you intend to go high in levels and are prepared to deal high damage to them to not fall off as they scale, and again, the fact that leaving one area and then moving on to another that is quite far would often lead to a loss of threat level. Say, if you are farming toroids at nef's statue, you're done, and you move on to the spaceport. It's so far that you'll probably have to build up their attention and levels again (the latter if you are seeking stronger enemies like I do, that is)

[LSG501]

1 hour ago, (PS4)FriendSharkey said:

It feels like Steve needs to work on secondary Star Map underlying the original..something like how Earth and Lua are separated in difficulty...but it feels like Veterans of all five years are really in need of the TAU Star Map meant to challenge them and soon... 

I've been saying, a long with others, for a long time that all DE needs to do is a 'hard mode(s)' on the normal star map, only unlocked at a certain point in game play so only 'veterans' can play it.  It wouldn't be too hard to have a 'hard mode' option that starts 50+ levels higher or something similar. 

[Celimbor]

DE wants more new players in the game, yet keeps things like standing limit and ridiculous build times in. When DE tries to listen to new players S#&$ like the Ember nerf happens, because some MR4 kiddo couldn't keep up in an exterminate mission. DE's problem is that they don't know how to tell actual complaints regarding their game, from new players crying about not being able to do stuff they aren't supposed to yet.

Edited November 16, 2018 by Celimbor

[peterc3]

12 minutes ago, Celimbor said:

When DE tries to listen to new players S#&$ like the Ember nerf happens, because some MR4 kiddo couldn't keep up in an exterminate mission.

Ember wasn't from them listening to anyone but their analytics on who is running what and where. Nerfs and buffs are never due to the whining on the forums.

You may not think so, but if I were a new player and I started, say, an Exterminate where I load in and before I have a chance to react the other players have loaded and have disappeared and I see not one enemy between start and finish... I would have to stop and wonder why I was playing this game. It would just be a 5 min loot collecting minigame with the challenge of going from point A to point B without exiting the game and never starting it again.

[rune_me]

1 hour ago, Celimbor said:

DE wants more new players in the game, yet keeps things like standing limit and ridiculous build times in. When DE tries to listen to new players S#&$ like the Ember nerf happens, because some MR4 kiddo couldn't keep up in an exterminate mission. DE's problem is that they don't know how to tell actual complaints regarding their game, from new players crying about not being able to do stuff they aren't supposed to yet.

Pretty sure the Ember nerf happened for the exact opposite reason. Because it was too easy for some MR4 kiddo to keep up in missions. I mean, when I was brand new, ember was the first frame that allowed me to more or less consistently get more kills than players that were much higher MR than me (provided they weren't playing Ember or Banshee of course).

Edited November 16, 2018 by rune_me

[Pizzarugi]

17 minutes ago, Celimbor said:

DE wants more new players in the game, yet keeps things like standing limit and ridiculous build times in. When DE tries to listen to new players S#&$ like the Ember nerf happens, because some MR4 kiddo couldn't keep up in an exterminate mission. DE's problem is that they don't know how to tell actual complaints regarding their game, from new players crying about not being able to do stuff they aren't supposed to yet.

Ember isn't supposed to delete whole rooms by pressing 4 and literally forgetting about it for the rest of the mission. The players "crying" as you call it are justified, because nobody wants to treat Warframe like a walking simulator, because somebody in the team brought a nuke.

4 minutes ago, peterc3 said:

Ember wasn't from them listening to anyone but their analytics on who is running what and where. Nerfs and buffs are never due to the whining on the forums.

You may not think so, but if I were a new player and I started, say, an Exterminate where I load in and before I have a chance to react the other players have loaded and have disappeared and I see not one enemy between start and finish... I would have to stop and wonder why I was playing this game. It would just be a 5 min loot collecting minigame with the challenge of going from point A to point B without exiting the game and never starting it again.

And this is how the other press-4-to-win frames are going to get nerfed. Given how frequently I run into them in most missions, I can wager a pretty accurate guess that a large number of players are running these frames compared to anything else. And if what you say is true, that nerfs are based on analytics (I don't doubt it, lots of multiplayer devs do this), they're going to get nerfed sooner or later, and it's the people playing them that'll be their downfall.

And I agree with your second paragraph. Why bother playing this game if you can't do anything, because person in the team is doing everything and leaving you nothing? The game is practically playing itself with little input needed from you.

[evilChair]

stop whining about being op like it's the devs' fault. if you want a challenge, empty out a couple modslots. it's what i do.

[Pizzarugi]

1 minute ago, evilChair said:

stop whining about being op like it's the devs' fault. if you want a challenge, empty out a couple modslots. it's what i do.

The onus here is on the devs to provide the challenge, not the people who play their game. People aren't willingly going to gimp themselves in order to get a challenge, not in this game. What needs to happen is nerfs towards the players, particularly around the endgame builds to bring them more inline with the rest of the game, but of course nobody is willing to lose their ridiculous levels of damage and tankiness that isn't necessary to play this game.

[(PSN)kingdomkey599879]

On 2018-11-14 at 10:07 AM, MacAaroni said:

To be honest though, i don't see it being too difficult for DE to make some sort of way to activate something in the world that makes the entire map or a certain area in Orb Vallis a bit harder for those who want a tougher challenge.. Sort of how Nukes work in Fallout 76 (Not sure if anyone knows what im talking about). But im personally not mad about the nerf, i completely understand it. I just hope they add something in Orb Vallis that creates that same challenge cause it was really fun. Besides the big boi spiders. 

why not have some sort of device in orb vallis like we do with the tridolons on the plains but without the use of another item to activate but require a squad vote in the open world. that way if newer players want to Opt out then they can finish what the need and go bat to fortuna via menu or a wind that states "you are about to proceed to high level content, commit?" Like how it tells us in the war within about the point of no return.  Just have the device near by and when players do it they get rewards that they players in question want but dont drag it on like in arbitration either cuz then it makes it feel like the rewards are not worth it. 

[Ikyr0]

DE, why are you so goddamn scared of giving us challenging content? what's your problem? why do i have to wait 1hr+ in an Arbitration to face lvl 100+ mobs? it's wasting my time, and I have nothing left to do in the game.

Edited November 16, 2018 by Ikyr0