Do we really need MR to be tied to our arsenal?

[Tazdingoo]

So I've been playing warframe for almost 5 years now but it used to be a lot more fun playing with friends and figuring the game out together. Now we've reached the point where each of us already have our favourite frames and weapons we like to use whether it's the meta or not, but there's nothing to do with them? Sure we could go for those long missions to test ourselves but that gets mind-numbingly boring that we only do that if we have trouble sleeping haha. (Long missions make us fall asleep somehow)

Personally, before the whole 'MR affects your standing' thing happened, I never would bother with building any new weapons that DE added to the game. I'm at the point where I have loadouts for every game mode where I just switch between where necessary. I'd only build them for, "hey this weapon sounds or looks cool. I'll get it."

Now that apparently MR affects how much standing you can get with any syndicate, I feel obligated to get and build new weapons just to throw them one side and never see them again. Basically, mastery fodder.

I've been away for a long time from Warframe so I never took notice of this change until recently. I came back for Fortuna and before that for PoE. Took a long break between each of those cause I thought I was very burnt out.

Why should MR be tied to our arsenal? Why can't it be a bar that shows how many missions you've played?

A similar system I guess would be like Overwatch's where you level based on how many matches you've played.

Diablo has a similar system to what I'm suggesting.

I'm only suggesting that the affinity be gained from how many missions you've played rather than how many weapons you have. All the MR requirements for weapons and frames can stay. The mastery rank tests should stay as well as it tests you if you've actually 'mastered the game'. 

Right now it should just be called 'Arsenal Rank'.

When I see high MR players I don't think: Damn this guy has been playing for damn long and knows so much probably

Right now I think: I see this guy has been spending tons of time in Hydron and has a ton of weapons he will never use.

 

I know some of you might think that it may make a lot of the weapons pointless. But they already are.

Why not throw the blueprints as loots from missions across the starchart? Instead of buying them from the market? Then players old and new have to play different maps to get weapons that they think would be worth to them.

The market should be left for bundles and cosmetics. I mean almost no one buys weapons from the market with plat anyway.

What do you guys think of my suggestion?

TLDR; Diablo Paragon system as a replacement to our Mastery 'arsenal' rank.

If you guys like my suggestion please bump it up in the chances that DE may see it 🙂

 

EDIT 1: Maybe I didn't make it clear but my system would have no cap to the rank. So no point in farming it. Meaning that once you reach the highest MR, you drop back to 1 but maybe it just looks visually different (Prestige basically). It turns golden or some lotus symbol next to it. I don't know you decide, DE.

In regards to the rank tests, maybe just have it for the first time you go through the system. But not the second time you prestige cause that would be pointless I guess.

EDIT 2: Okay maybe Overwatch was a bad example since some of you guys don't seem to get it. Diablo. Diablo has a system to what I'm suggesting. It's similar to our Warframe in the sense that it's also a grind fest but once you reach a Paragon level, the early content you did when you were a fetus Tenno gets harder. BUT that's only an option if you want to have some challenge.

EDIT 3: Basically, what I'm suggesting is MR should be a type of forma to your overall progress. I'll be cancelling stuff out based on what you guys suggest. Thanks for the feedback.

EDIT 4:

I'm ending my replies here. It's gotten kinda tiresome but I hope DE takes into consideration for those of us that already have a set of favourite gear to use.

Yes, maybe my idea isn't a good one but the issue with MR still stands.

 

Thank you for all the feedback everyone. Gonna go back to enjoying the game.

Edited November 15, 2018 by Tazdingoo
Clarification

[krc473]

2 minutes ago, Tazdingoo said:

Then players old and new have to play different maps to get weapons that they think would be worth to them.

What would this actually achieve? Would it be a mission reward or enemy drop?

• The MR system is not changing. So people would be endlessly picking up stuff they cannot build.
• Once collected, people would just grind Hydron again to gain access to more weapons.

4 minutes ago, Tazdingoo said:

Right now I think: I see this guy has been spending tons of time in Hydron and has a ton of weapons he will never use.

I only really go to Hydron with maxed gear with friends. I still have tons of weapons I will never use. I have no idea why you think those two are linked.

• Hydron: leveling up gear. Focus farm if you do not like EOS.

Not liking weapons is just because you do not like them. Hey, I found an unused Zylok in my inventory yesterday, many other half leveled unmaxed/forma'd weapons. These are weapons I have little intention of touching, and Hydron has nothing to do with it.

9 minutes ago, Tazdingoo said:

Why should MR be tied to our arsenal? Why can't it be a bar that shows how many missions you've played?

A similar system I guess would be like Overwatch's where you level based on how many matches you've played.

Because WF and Overwatch are not similar? It makes sense for it to work that way in Overwatch - you get better/more powerful with more games and practice. In WF, you can play 1,000 games with MK-1 gear, you will not be more powerful. It makes sense that WF uses a system that is based on leveled gear items - because gear matters more than missions played. 

• All those people who are playing Hydron would have masses of missions played. So, your system could encourage grinding Hydron even more than the current one. You just find an easy, high level (I assume enemy level counts for something) mission and grind. 

[Thural]

Old system: wow this guy used a lot of weapons
Your system: wow this guy rushed insert meta mastery gain mission a lot of times

The only way a system like this can work is if mastery is tied to something that can't be farmed, otherwise everyone will hit the cap and stop caring.  As it stands, there are a significant number of people who come back with new content just to get the mastery.  With your system a lot would probably drop the game altogether once they hit the cap.

Also I've never maxed a weapon on an affinity farm, I reserve those for forma, so if the way to gain mastery was changed, I would probably never use a new weapon.

[Tazdingoo]

5 minutes ago, krc473 said:

What would this actually achieve? Would it be a mission reward or enemy drop?

• The MR system is not changing. So people would be endlessly picking up stuff they cannot build.
• Once collected, people would just grind Hydron again to gain access to more weapons.

I only really go to Hydron with maxed gear with friends. I still have tons of weapons I will never use. I have no idea why you think those two are linked.

• Hydron: leveling up gear. Focus farm if you do not like EOS.

Not liking weapons is just because you do not like them. Hey, I found an unused Zylok in my inventory yesterday, many other half leveled unmaxed/forma'd weapons. These are weapons I have little intention of touching, and Hydron has nothing to do with it.

Because WF and Overwatch are not similar? It makes sense for it to work that way in Overwatch - you get better/more powerful with more games and practice. In WF, you can play 1,000 games with MK-1 gear, you will not be more powerful. It makes sense that WF uses a system that is based on leveled gear items - because gear matters more than missions played. 

• All those people who are playing Hydron would have masses of missions played. So, your system could encourage grinding Hydron even more than the current one. You just find an easy, high level (I assume enemy level counts for something) mission and grind. 

I'm just using Overwatch as an example. So, I know they're 2 different games. It's more so that people understand where I'm getting at.

My system is more or less the same to what we have right now. Just that the affinity would be tied to missions. And, in Overwatch, once you hit the cap, you just go into prestige mode. In that game the only thing that you get from levelling are lootboxes but no I never want to see lootboxes in Warframe.

 

8 minutes ago, Thural said:

Old system: wow this guy used a lot of weapons
Your system: wow this guy rushed insert meta mastery gain mission a lot of times

The only way a system like this can work is if mastery is tied to something that can't be farmed, otherwise everyone will hit the cap and stop caring.  As it stands, there are a significant number of people who come back with new content just to get the mastery.  With your system a lot would probably drop the game altogether once they hit the cap.

Also I've never maxed a weapon on an affinity farm, I reserve those for forma, so if the way to gain mastery was changed, I would probably never use a new weapon.

Like I mentioned to the other guy, the MR system would have no cap but instead once you reach the highest MR, you go into prestige mode, maybe your MR number drops to 1 but is golden *OOOOHHH* It provides no stat boost whatsoever.

So this would stop people from grinding in one spot. Cause there would be absolutely no point in grinding to make your number look shinier to other players. Or maybe you can if that floats your boat.

Maybe the affinity you get from whatever mission is controlled? So no one place will give you higher xp than the other.

 

The rank 30 thing for weapons can still stay but maybe rename it to weapon rank or something. 

[(XBOX)zThulsaDoomz]

Just tossing this out there, but maybe a badge system for completed content?  I'm not against the MR concept, but the methods in which it is acquired does leave a lot of room for improvement 

[Tazdingoo]

1 minute ago, (XB1)Thy Divinity said:

Just tossing this out there, but maybe a badge system for completed content?  I'm not against the MR concept, but the methods in which it is acquired does leave a lot of room for improvement 

YES definitely what I had in mind. I love you, bro. Someone who understands. :')

[Methanoid]

MR is just 1 of several methods DE use to time-gate your gaming experience to make the game last as looooooooong as possible, i doubt they would revamp MR in any major way which would break that, DE needs and relies heavily on time-gates, when we first started there were no MR locks on the solar map or quest progression, now its everywhere stacked on top of all the other timegate systems like faction rep/weapons/newer prime frames.

[Tazdingoo]

8 minutes ago, Methanoid said:

MR is just 1 of several methods DE use to time-gate your gaming experience to make the game last as looooooooong as possible, i doubt they would revamp MR in any major way which would break that, DE needs and relies heavily on time-gates, when we first started there were no MR locks on the solar map or quest progression, now its everywhere stacked on top of all the other timegate systems like faction rep/weapons/newer prime frames.

Yeah I remember that but don't you think we have enough time gates already? and MR isn't really something time-gated currently. You can keep getting new weapons to farm to max rank whenever and wherever you like. I guess maybe waiting for the weapon to build is one time-gate.

But I agree that time-gates do help the game but it's just the MR system as of now, doesn't make sense to me.

 

Edited November 14, 2018 by Tazdingoo

[Methanoid]

3 minutes ago, Tazdingoo said:

Yeah I remember that but don't you think we have enough time gates already? and MR isn't really something time-gated currently. You can keep getting new weapons to farm to max rank whenever and wherever you like.

But I agree that time-gates do help the game but it's just the MR system as of now, doesn't make sense to me.

 

we dont like timegates but DE needs it otherwise just like in 2013/2014 players attain either everything or everything of worth and thats you done waiting for endgame that never comes because vets that arent throwing money around arent a priority because new blood that spends ££/$$ on plat will easily replace them.

when i ran out of stuff to do i made new accoutns to start over with some weird goal in mind like the old MR0 alt accounts, i have 2 of those, i have my original main and i have a MR5 account which can do all the main storyline quests, nowadays tho doing MR0 runthroughs are impossible due to all the MR lockouts...

Pity as it helps/helped prolong interest in the game.

Edited November 14, 2018 by Methanoid

[trst]

Because people complained that Mastery Rank didn't do or mean anything, thus they added features like this.

And the system accomplishes something quite important for old and new players: actually trying new weapons. Sure a lot of players refuse to even look at weapons that don't seem (or told they are, cough) op. But without this we'd simply have people with zero reason to look at 90% of weapons in the game because of this mentality.

 

But as far as your suggestion; just no. Making weapon bp's require random mission grinding would just disinsentivize people from wanting to try new weapons by adding an arbitrary grind to them and would just make recent players quit the game after seeing that all the weapons they wanted to get are now scattered across the game instead of right in front of them.

But with what you're actually getting at:

59 minutes ago, Tazdingoo said:

Now that apparently MR affects how much standing you can get with any syndicate

The game has been like this for a long time now, if you're getting burned by this in trying to rank up with the Solaris then it's your fault for falling behind.

Edited November 14, 2018 by trst

[Devaldus]

It's a terrible problem that most people just WON'T acknowledge with the game, especially the ones that are MR 20+ because they want to so desperately hold on to their hard work & grind.

I've been playing since the early days too and the game is extremely easy/boring for me now, It's just sad because Warframe has great graphics and a lot of potential to really deliver competitive & engaging content to it's playerbase, but DE -always- holds back on stuff like PvP & true skill-based mechanics in the game, they'd just rather if everyone had fun and never truly lose and you were considered a "better" player by being of higher MR just because you play more than anyone else does and prefer to play everything rather than just a set amount of weapons/frames.

What's wrong with specializing in this game? Absolutely nothing, why should people get punished for wanting to specialize? Why should people be forced to literally play everything in the game to achieve more and more senseless bonuses?

It's just bad game design in my humble opinion.

(before anyone starts criticizing, I myself have 2 separate accounts above MR 20, I'd be "losing" just as much as the next person).

Edited November 14, 2018 by Devaldus

[Tazdingoo]

1 minute ago, Methanoid said:

we dont like timegates but DE needs it otherwise just like in 2013/2014 players attain either everything or everything of worth and thats you done waiting for endgame that never comes because vets that arent throwing money around arent a priority because new blood that spends ££/$$ on plat will easily replace them.

Yup I totally agree with you that time-gates should stay but tell me, on what things did you, use your plat on? When you first started out? I remember just getting syandanas and maybe rushing a few frames or 2 that I was excited for. I know I've only used plat on cosmetics as my form of monthly subscription to DE.

As of now, our MR system isn't time-gated anyway.

The only change I suggest they do would still have a time-gate for weapons and frames. You still have to wait to acquire them.

[Tazdingoo]

2 minutes ago, trst said:

Because people complained that Mastery Rank didn't do or mean anything, thus they added features like this.

And the system accomplishes something quite important for old and new players: actually trying new weapons. Sure a lot of players refuse to even look at weapons that don't seem (or told they are, cough) op. But without this we'd simply have people with zero reason to look at 90% of weapons in the game because of this mentality.

 

But as far as your suggestion; just no. Making weapon bp's require random mission grinding would just disinsentivize people from wanting to try new weapons by adding an arbitrary grind to them and would just make recent players quit the game after seeing that all the weapons they wanted to get are now scattered across the game instead of right in front of them.

But with what you're actually getting at:

The game has been like this for a long time now, if you're getting burned by this in trying to rank up with the Solaris then it's your fault for falling behind.

Wait, so it's my fault that I didn't invest every day on ranking any syndicate?

And that isn't the main issue I have here. I'm only suggesting that the affinity we get for MR be acquired from something else. Every other thing that DE implemented doesn't have to change.

The weapon blueprints thing was just a side thing but not the main point of my post. I guess agree with you on that though. Thanks.

[Methanoid]

1 minute ago, Tazdingoo said:

Yup I totally agree with you that time-gates should stay but tell me, on what things did you, use your plat on? When you first started out? I remember just getting syandanas and maybe rushing a few frames or 2 that I was excited for. I know I've only used plat on cosmetics as my form of monthly subscription to DE.

As of now, our MR system isn't time-gated anyway.

The only change I suggest they do would still have a time-gate for weapons and frames. You still have to wait to acquire them.

MR is a time gate due to junctions and ofc a soft timegate is the actual MR rank up system requiring all that weapon grind (something stupidly still hidden away many from new players who have no idea), quests needing certain MR requirements (mostly via junctions) is also included here.

MR already has/had plenty of acceptable restrictions and benefits via daily trading amounts, access to syndicates and all the augments/mods, access to clan dojo weapons and other stuff i probably cant think of right now, further including the lockdowns on the starmap and quests just made me want to facepalm when i came back after my first yearly break away.

My plat useage when i first started was on a mix of syandanas and weapon/warframe slots over several accounts.

[krc473]

32 minutes ago, Tazdingoo said:

So no one place will give you higher xp than the other.

Why play harder content then? If level 1 and level 100 missions give the same XP, what is the point in them? For me, this is an incredibly bad idea. You are saying "give no incentive to play high level missions". A two minute mission should not give the same XP than a 20 minute mission. 

• Perhaps you did not explain it fully, but as it stands, I can see no benefit in that proposal. It would probably be detrimental.
• All your proposal currently says is to farm Mercury Capture missions for XP. Because why do anything longer/harder?
• This is where "mission drops" come in. But anyone can see why this would only be temporary. You will get all the stuff, and go back to your Mercury Capture.

 

You really do need to have different XP levels for harder/longer missions. Otherwise it will be a fantastic way to trivialise ranking up. I would say that farming Hydron is far better than what you are proposing.

37 minutes ago, Tazdingoo said:

My system is more or less the same to what we have right now. Just that the affinity would be tied to missions.

But its not the same. You want to use a PvP leveling mechanic in a PvE game. Can you provide a few examples of where this has been successfully done in PvE games like WF?

• It makes more sense to use that mechanic for PvP games. Because matches played are more relevant.

[Tazdingoo]

3 minutes ago, Methanoid said:

MR is a time gate due to junctions and ofc a soft timegate is the actual MR rank up system requiring all that weapon grind (something stupidly still hidden away many from new players who have no idea), quests needing certain MR requirements (mostly via junctions) is also included here.

MR already has/had plenty of acceptable restrictions and benefits via daily trading amounts, access to syndicates and all the augments/mods, access to clan dojo weapons and other stuff i probably cant think of right now, further including the lockdowns on the starmap and quests just made me want to facepalm when i came back after my first yearly break away.

My plat useage when i first started was on a mix of syandanas and weapon/warframe slots over several accounts.

Ah okay I see what you mean on the time-gate. Maybe cause I've played so long and already unlocked the entire starmap that I don't know what's going on in the starting areas. I'm not sure what the requirements for junctions are.

Hmm, not sure if I've unlocked the junctions yet but I can still travel to any planet I want. Guess I gotta check.

Anyway, on the MR point, like you said, there's already enough benefits and things to hold us back. I'm only suggesting this small change.

Might be a big change later on but I'm not sure. If it doesn't work, DE is always free to move back to the old system we have now.

[Tazdingoo]

7 minutes ago, krc473 said:

Why play harder content then? If level 1 and level 100 missions give the same XP, what is the point in them? For me, this is an incredibly bad idea. You are saying "give no incentive to play high level missions". A two minute mission should not give the same XP than a 20 minute mission. 

• Perhaps you did not explain it fully, but as it stands, I can see no benefit in that proposal. It would probably be detrimental.
• All your proposal currently says is to farm Mercury Capture missions for XP. Because why do anything longer/harder?
• This is where "mission drops" come in. But anyone can see why this would only be temporary. You will get all the stuff, and go back to your Mercury Capture.

 

You really do need to have different XP levels for harder/longer missions. Otherwise it will be a fantastic way to trivialise ranking up. I would say that farming Hydron is far better than what you are proposing.

But its not the same. You want to use a PvP leveling mechanic in a PvE game. Can you provide a few examples of where this has been successfully done in PvE games like WF?

• It makes more sense to use that mechanic for PvP games. Because matches played are more relevant.

Hmm, I guess that is true. Maybe yeah, harder content should give more experience.

And why not use that system? Just because it's suggested from a PvP game? I think it would still work.

 

One game that uses this sytem that I can think of is Diablo. It's also a massive grind fest and they have a type of prestige level too. I think it's called Paragon level if I remember correctly?

Also, Diablo is one of the most popular titles out there. (rip diablo immortal tho)

Maybe add some kind of reward to reaching all the levels of prestige? Maybe all the starting maps get a harder difficulty option for everytime you prestige?

Mind you, this is only a suggestion as all the heavy details I would leave to DE if they decide to use this idea.

[Obviousclone]

You still have to grind all the weapons and warframes themselves. As well as complete the junctions.

Do you have every single warframe? Including questframes? Including primes?

Do you have every single weapon? All the zaws? all the amps? The sibear? The hema? All the forma-eating clan tech weapons? The Braton Vandal?

Do you have every companion? Kavats? Prisma Shade?

 

Every time I see someone that tries to discount high MR "because muh hydron", it just reflects how shallow they are as a player. If high MR means nothing, if there is no grind and you just run this mission and instantly get high MR in no time, then everyone should be high MR. But no, you actually have to play the rest of the game, collect bps and resources to craft everything.

 

PS Overwatch leveling system is a joke. You can go do training against ai easy and get thousands of levels doing that. Literally afk while 3 other people compete to KS each other over the ai spawncamping. I've done that in overwatch. Levels mean nothing in that game.

[Tazdingoo]

2 minutes ago, Obviousclone said:

You still have to grind all the weapons and warframes themselves. As well as complete the junctions.

Do you have every single warframe? Including questframes? Including primes?

Do you have every single weapon? All the zaws? all the amps? The sibear? The hema? All the forma-eating clan tech weapons? The Braton Vandal?

Do you have every companion? Kavats? Prisma Shade?

 

Every time I see someone that tries to discount high MR "because muh hydron", it just reflects how shallow they are as a player. If high MR means nothing, if there is no grind and you just run this mission and instantly get high MR in no time, then everyone should be high MR. But no, you actually have to play the rest of the game, collect bps and resources to craft everything.

 

PS Overwatch leveling system is a joke. You can go do training against ai easy and get thousands of levels doing that. Literally afk while 3 other people compete to KS each other over the ai spawncamping. I've done that in overwatch. Levels mean nothing in that game.

Yes you still have to grind for those but at least you won't feel forced to grind all the frames. You'd only grind to get your favourite gear and make said gear better.

And I'm not discounting high MR cus of muh hydron but more of I'm suggesting this as a way to get rid of Hydron. The reason some players go to hydron is because it's the fastest, mind-numbingly boring way to get to high MR.

I myself have gotten tired of places like Hydron and like the Draco we had too.

And yes levels mean nothing in Overwatch. I agree on that point. 

And now I see that Overwatch was a bad example cause no one gets my point.

[CoolDudeMcCool]

5 minutes ago, Tazdingoo said:

I myself have gotten tired of places like Hydron and like the Draco we had too.

I haven't, when I'm leveling something I enjoy, well, I enjoy it.

[Tazdingoo]

1 minute ago, CoolDudeMcCool said:

I haven't, when I'm leveling something I enjoy, well, I enjoy it.

Exactly, but right now some of us are levelling things we don't enjoy.

And if you enjoy Hydron then hey, more power to you I guess.

[CoolDudeMcCool]

I don't think leveling things you don't enjoy to access things you do is a huge deal, moderate it like any other bland grind. If anything it's better than other boring grinds, because you can find gear you didn't think you'd like and then come to enjoy it(though to be fair, without a full build it might be harder to tell)

I mean, MR being displayed like an overall level is kinda iffy, but at least it gives you a general indicator of what people have access to and stuff. They should have access to a large variety of weapons/frames/etc. and they have access to specific MR locked content. It's not really an indicator of skill or anything, but it certainly still informs you at least a little bit. At the very least, a high MR means they're willing to grind out possibly tedious stuff, right?

Edited November 14, 2018 by CoolDudeMcCool

[Tazdingoo]

2 minutes ago, CoolDudeMcCool said:

I don't think leveling things you don't enjoy to access things you do is a huge deal, moderate it like any other bland grind. If anything it's better than other boring grinds, because you can find gear you didn't think you'd like and then come to enjoy it(though to be fair, without a full build it might be harder to tell)

I mean, MR being displayed like an overall level is kinda iffy, but at least it gives you a general indicator of what people have access to and stuff. They should have access to a large variety of weapons/frames/etc. and they have access to specific MR locked content. It's not really an indicator of skill or anything, but it certainly still informs you at least a little bit. At the very least, a high MR means they're willing to grind out possibly tedious stuff, right?

I guess maybe one way to solve this is like you said, don't display MR as an overall level cause it gives all players the wrong idea.

And you play a game cause it's fun no?

You don't play a game because it's tedious. 

If I wanted to enjoy tedious grind, I'd go out to work.

I'm just here to slash and mow down enemies with my favourite gear and enjoy the bits of story we have along the way.

[CoolDudeMcCool]

I certainly don't enjoy tedious stuff(well, the definition is specifically a negative one, so nobody enjoys tedious things, they just don't define it as tedious) but that's my point. People with a high MR either have a high tolerance for tedious things, and therefore are good to partner up with, or they actually enjoyed grinding MR and they're crazy so run away

But seriously, I think it's more a perception problem than anything.

[(XBOX)zThulsaDoomz]

The MR system should stay, but I would like to see some sort of display of difficult/higher level content that I've completed just for show at least.  Just my personal preference.

For example: Lengthy survival runs, consecutive sortie completions, etc.

Edited November 14, 2018 by (XB1)Thy Divinity