Can we postpone rail jack so that we can fix the things we have?

[stormy505]

37 minutes ago, Hmm...interesting. said:

It's just boring right now. It doesn't really involve the enemies. I can just go in with Loki and just walk past enemies, casually do all the consoles and walk out like it was nothing. There should be a challenge involved.

don't use loki then... actually try and stealth past the enemies without him.

[Hmm...interesting.]

2 minutes ago, ComCray said:

wut..? You need another incentive to play warframe then the thrill of doing it? Getting better at it? Develop some actual skill in the game? Actually just play the game because you ...like the game?

I'm starting to see a theme in these posts of late... I'm starting to think most of you don't actually like the game, just the notion of getting "free stuff".. for free.. 

Makes me sad...

I don't necessarily mean rewards. It would be cool to have posted challenges (sort of like arbitrations) with leaderboards that would reset every couple days or something.

[Hmm...interesting.]

Just now, stormy505 said:

don't use loki then... actually try and stealth past the enemies without him.

I don't think you've read through the previous posts. What I mentioned earlier is that I personally believe that there should be a challenge despite using Loki. Of course using Loki or Ivara will make it easier, but I think that there should be a challenge regardless.

[ComCray]

21 minutes ago, Hmm...interesting. said:

I don't necessarily mean rewards. It would be cool to have posted challenges (sort of like arbitrations) with leaderboards that would reset every couple days or something.

>profile > leaderboards (IIRC)

[Cephalycion]

27 minutes ago, Hmm...interesting. said:

I don't think you've read through the previous posts. What I mentioned earlier is that I personally believe that there should be a challenge despite using Loki. Of course using Loki or Ivara will make it easier, but I think that there should be a challenge regardless.

The community is generally divided on this. Imo, I spent my time farming up plat to buy loki prime (after maxing normal loki) just so I don't have to face a challenge in spy missions. If I don't want to face a challenge in exterminates, I farm for Saryn. If I want to be able to cheese defense and kuva, I farm for limbo. And so on.

If spy missions became harder for stealth based warframes then it would kind of defeat the purpose for efficiency farmers out there like me. Yes according to your suggestion, having a stealth frame will make it easier, but how much easier? Enough to justify farming for a stealth frame and enough to justify the fact that stealth frames are mostly specialised towards spy missions? I think not.

I still believe everyone can have their own opinions regarding this matter and I'm not forcing you to follow in mine but here are just my 2 cents.

Edited November 15, 2018 by Cephalycion

[Hmm...interesting.]

1 minute ago, Cephalycion said:

The community is generally divided on this. Imo, I spent my time farming up plat to buy loki prime (after maxing normal loki) just so I don't have to face a challenge in spy missions. If I don't want to face a challenge in exterminates, I farm for Saryn. If I want to be able to cheese defense and kuva, I farm for limbo. And so on.

If spy missions became harder for stealth based warframes then it would kind of defeat the purpose for efficiency farmers out there like me. Yes according to your suggestion, having a stealth frame will make it easier, but how much easier? Enough to justify farming for a stealth frame and enough to justify the fact that stealth frames are mostly specialised towards spy missions? I think not.

I still believe everyone can have their own opinions and I'm not forcing you to follow in mine but here are just my 2 cents.

Thanks for your two cents! Based on the image in my head, the farm for a stealth frame would make an very significant difference. I want it to be more "James Bondey." To give you some insight to what I'm thinking about, with a non stealth frame, I would have to take much more time to avoid enemies and keep myself out of lines of sight. With a stealth frame, I can essentially skip that part, but I would still have to be careful about not messing up my kills so that I don't alert the enemy. I essentially am looking for a mission with more opportunities to mess up.

[ComCray]

4 minutes ago, Cephalycion said:

The community is generally divided on this. Imo, I spent my time farming up plat to buy loki prime (after maxing normal loki) just so I don't have to face a challenge in spy missions. If I don't want to face a challenge in exterminates, I farm for Saryn. If I want to be able to cheese defense and kuva, I farm for limbo. And so on.

 If spy missions became harder for stealth based warframes then it would kind of defeat the purpose for efficiency farmers out there like me. Yes according to your suggestion, having a stealth frame will make it easier, but how much easier? Enough to justify farming for a stealth frame and enough to justify the fact that stealth frames are mostly specialised towards spy missions? I think not.

 I still believe everyone can have their own opinions regarding this matter and I'm not forcing you to follow in mine but here are just my 2 cents.

Good points too.. Sorties would be a LOT harder if they forced you to stay-in-frame throughout the run, as opposed to tailor your loadout to mission.

There's one thing I'd like to see changed in Spy missions though: the localized alerts. If you got the level alert going, you can still do the puzzle rooms. If you trigger the alert for a puzzle room, the guards right outside the door are still oblivious.. If triggering an alert would be global, it would change large part of the dynamics;
- you need to turn off the level-alert before going into a puzzle room
- you still want to be stealthy when leaving the puzzle room, because you're probably squishy AF.

[ComCray]

6 minutes ago, Hmm...interesting. said:

 but I would still have to be careful about not messing up my kills so that I don't alert the enemy. I essentially am looking for a mission with more opportunities to mess up.

yeah.. there I agree: a bit more AI would go a long way in making things just a bit more interesting...

[Hmm...interesting.]

16 minutes ago, ComCray said:

Good points too.. Sorties would be a LOT harder if they forced you to stay-in-frame throughout the run, as opposed to tailor your loadout to mission.

There's one thing I'd like to see changed in Spy missions though: the localized alerts. If you got the level alert going, you can still do the puzzle rooms. If you trigger the alert for a puzzle room, the guards right outside the door are still oblivious.. If triggering an alert would be global, it would change large part of the dynamics;
- you need to turn off the level-alert before going into a puzzle room
- you still want to be stealthy when leaving the puzzle room, because you're probably squishy AF.

 

15 minutes ago, ComCray said:

yeah.. there I agree: a bit more AI would go a long way in making things just a bit more interesting...

I agree with both of these. It would be cool if there were more hardcore versions for nightmare mode missions.

[ComCray]

32 minutes ago, Hmm...interesting. said:

  

I agree with both of these. It would be cool if there were more hardcore versions for nightmare mode missions.

but.. the issue with the AI is, I think, how we're playing on other people's PC. And you don't want the game obliterating someone's potato with advanced AI. So there's that to consider...

Lets see if we can spice things up without resorting to dedicated servers... Howsabout:

Capture missions
Make it so you really have to escort an unwilling capture target to exit. The target will try and take any opportunity to get away.
At first the other enemies will try and help him escape but the closer you get to exfil the bigger the chance they'd rather just shoot him. Adding an extra dimension to "we need the captive ALIVE".
If they manage to take the captive, they'll do anything to stop you from taking him again, this includes killing him if need be.

Rescue missions
Again, we need to actually escort the target more then rushing to exit - hoping for the target to teleport to our location. 
At first the enemy will try and take the target from us, but the closer to exfil - the more lethal the enemy behaves towards target.
If they manage to take the target and there's a huge chance you come and take him/her back they'll just execute the target.

Exterminate missions
When at 50% (part of) the enemies will try and get away from you, forcing you to actively hunt them down. At this point turning off the alarms won't work anymore, they are, or shouldn't be, THAT stupid.
This includes
- barricading themselves in sealed rooms, good luck trying to find a key of sorts
- making "last stands", meaning: not run blindly towards their demise but hole up somewhere, trying to lure you in an ambush of sorts
Stuff like that.

These shouldn't impact the AI too much as it'll switch between AI paths based on external triggers, they don't decide for themselves - your progress decides for them.

But also...

Cool down timers on our powers. Seriously. One shouldn't be able to just spam their utlimates. Because no matter how challenging they make something, if you bring certain frames you won't even SEE an enemy, except for damagenumbers all over the place..

I bet many of you don't want to go there.. but if you're serious about the game providing more of a challenge, then that SHOULD be part of the debate also....

[Hmm...interesting.]

5 minutes ago, ComCray said:

but.. the issue with the AI is, I think, how we're playing on other people's PC. And you don't want the game obliterating someone's potato with advanced AI. So there's that to consider...

Lets see if we can spice things up without resorting to dedicated servers... Howsabout:

Capture missions
Make it so you really have to escort an unwilling capture target to exit. The target will try and take any opportunity to get away.
At first the other enemies will try and help him escape but the closer you get to exfil the bigger the chance they'd rather just shoot him. Adding an extra dimension to "we need the captive ALIVE".
If they manage to take the captive, they'll do anything to stop you from taking him again, this includes killing him if need be.

Rescue missions
Again, we need to actually escort the target more then rushing to exit - hoping for the target to teleport to our location. 
At first the enemy will try and take the target from us, but the closer to exfil - the more lethal the enemy behaves towards target.
If they manage to take the target and there's a huge chance you come and take him/her back they'll just execute the target.

Exterminate missions
When at 50% (part of) the enemies will try and get away from you, forcing you to actively hunt them down. At this point turning off the alarms won't work anymore, they are, or shouldn't be, THAT stupid.
This includes
- barricading themselves in sealed rooms, good luck trying to find a key of sorts
- making "last stands", meaning: not run blindly towards their demise but hole up somewhere, trying to lure you in an ambush of sorts
Stuff like that.

These shouldn't impact the AI too much as it'll switch between AI paths based on external triggers, they don't decide for themselves - your progress decides for them.

But also...

Cool down timers on our powers. Seriously. One shouldn't be able to just spam their utlimates. Because no matter how challenging they make something, if you bring certain frames you won't even SEE an enemy, except for damagenumbers all over the place..

I bet many of you don't want to go there.. but if you're serious about the game providing more of a challenge, then that SHOULD be part of the debate also....

I would happily accept changes like these. It changes the game from being a mindless shooter to being a strategy shooter. Way more interesting to play. I was struggling to think of a way to improve capture missions, but I think you nailed it. I was thinking something along the same lines of what you thought of for rescue missions. I think you shouldn't be able to extract without the target being at extraction. I think with exterminate missions, the enemy's response should revolve around a fight or flight system, and should vary depending on the difficulty level. It would be cool to hear the transmissions on the other end of the battle, listening to the Grineer commander's orders. With a "flight" response, I think it would be cool to have what you mentioned. With a "fight" response, it would be cool to have the enemy send in actual reinforcements such as specialty units, walkers, deadlier Drahks.

[Lordmotav]

2 hours ago, Hmm...interesting. said:

My suggestion is to make enemies involved in the spy missions. As it stands, I can just walk past enemies to do the objective. There should be multiple stage objectives like there are in bounties, for example, having to take a datamass from an enemy or breaking into a room to steal a key or disable cameras, all while not alerting alarms. Also make enemies be alerted by noises such as sensors being smashed or fans leading to pathways being broken. This could allow them to activate a safety protocol that will make it more difficult for us as players to get to the final objective.

What you want is an entire brand new game that revolves around stealth. There are plenty of fleshed out franchises for you to choose from, I suggest doing that instead. This game isn't about to become that. Hell even with all that stuff it wouldn't matter against unlimited invisibility you get by using Loki.

[Hmm...interesting.]

1 minute ago, Lordmotav said:

What you want is an entire brand new game that revolves around stealth. There are plenty of fleshed out franchises for you to choose from, I suggest doing that instead. This game isn't about to become that. Hell even with all that stuff it wouldn't matter against unlimited invisibility you get by using Loki.

Well, I don't want to change all of warframe, but I do want to change spy because it isn't very interesting right now, even if you aren't using stealth frames.

[Lordmotav]

Just now, Hmm...interesting. said:

Well, I don't want to change all of warframe, but I do want to change spy because it isn't very interesting right now, even if you aren't using stealth frames.

That's the problem though, grind games are meant to be grinded in. Make a stealth mission too long and it becomes too hard to grind it. So they're short and sweet. Make them too difficult and people won't play with other people, meaning you've created a single player only mission type in a multiplayer game. Warframe is designed for you to grab your friends and do stuff together, so the spy/stealth missions are designed to be easy. 

 

I'm not saying your ideas are bad or unfun or dumb, they're just not really for Warframe. Stuff like that is what you'd expect to see in a new Deus Ex game.

[Hmm...interesting.]

12 minutes ago, Lordmotav said:

That's the problem though, grind games are meant to be grinded in. Make a stealth mission too long and it becomes too hard to grind it. So they're short and sweet. Make them too difficult and people won't play with other people, meaning you've created a single player only mission type in a multiplayer game. Warframe is designed for you to grab your friends and do stuff together, so the spy/stealth missions are designed to be easy. 

 

I'm not saying your ideas are bad or unfun or dumb, they're just not really for Warframe. Stuff like that is what you'd expect to see in a new Deus Ex game.

That's the difficulty; making it both challenging and accessible.

[Lordmotav]

1 minute ago, Hmm...interesting. said:

That's the difficulty; making it both challenging and accessible.

That on top of the sheer development time that'd take just to MAYBE improve spy missions. Honestly not gonna worth it imo.

[Hmm...interesting.]

2 minutes ago, Lordmotav said:

That on top of the sheer development time that'd take just to MAYBE improve spy missions. Honestly not gonna worth it imo.

Well, it may or may not take a long time to develop, but if it's done well, I think it could definitely add a lot to the game. Not just with spy, but with other mission types as well.

[(PSN)robotwars7]

DE actually do a pretty decent job of going back to fix things. Specters of The Rail was almost exclusively fixes and gave us the current Starchart layout. Jupiter is getting remastered, all guns have been looked at and most of them re-balanced, and after about 2 years of asking we FINALLY have AkVasto and AkLex Prime in the game. they do listen, and they do rework stuff, but:

- it takes time.

- the reworks have to be done right and in accordance with what feedback DE has (doesn't help that 90% of players put feedback in GD where they won't see it).

- players start complaining about being bored and screaming "muh content drought" until they're red in the face if we go more than a month without a major update.

I'm kinda hoping that once Fortuna is where they want it to be, DE will announce in a devstream "we'll still be working on Railjack, but we want to fix stuff for a little while". personally I can wait for Railjack, but they can probably still work on it in the background. it doesn't hurt for them to at least take a look at the regular game modes, and maybe add a few new tiles and rooms to make it interesting again. 

as for Spy missions, there isn't really a way of making them harder without compromising what warframe is all about: being a powerful space ninja. DE tried ramping up the difficulty with Pavlov and.. well, if you can think of somebody that still goes to Pavlov after getting Body Count, let me know, because they must be pretty lonely running through those time rifts by now..

[Eisdschungel]

vor 3 Stunden schrieb (PS4)robotwars7:

well, if you can think of somebody that still goes to Pavlov after getting Body Count, let me know, because they must be pretty lonely running through those time rifts by now..

Found some1 that does that, me. Its actually not that lonely (always some1 there that needs ivara or Body count), meaning i can help People while having Fun myself. Also hosted Counties "Lua Spy for dummies" Session for People that we're interested

Edit: the reason i like it is coz hos different and complex it is compared to regular spys. Plus, lua is a Beautiful tileset

Edited November 15, 2018 by Eisdschungel

[Rayden_Tenno]

8 hours ago, Hmm...interesting. said:

It's just boring right now. It doesn't really involve the enemies. I can just go in with Loki and just walk past enemies, casually do all the consoles and walk out like it was nothing. There should be a challenge involved.

Let me give you a straight up advice that will spice up by a hell lot those "boring" spy missions. Don't take Loki. Neither Ivara. Nor Ash. Don't use the skiajati passive. Basically, dont use anythint that can make you invisible. There, now it's better.

[Zakharon]

9 hours ago, Hmm...interesting. said:

It's just boring right now. It doesn't really involve the enemies. I can just go in with Loki and just walk past enemies, casually do all the consoles and walk out like it was nothing. There should be a challenge involved.

This is the point, a stealth mission I love that I can hop on a stealth frame like Ivara and have actual fun 

[(PSN)guzmantt1977]

9 hours ago, Hmm...interesting. said:

My suggestion is to make enemies involved in the spy missions. As it stands, I can just walk past enemies to do the objective. There should be multiple stage objectives like there are in bounties, for example, having to take a datamass from an enemy or breaking into a room to steal a key or disable cameras, all while not alerting alarms. Also make enemies be alerted by noises such as sensors being smashed or fans leading to pathways being broken. This could allow them to activate a safety protocol that will make it more difficult for us as players to get to the final objective.

You're specifically talking about taking a frame and using abilities that allow you to walk past the enemies without engaging them, and complaining that you can do that? Does that really make sense to you? 

That's a great suggestion! I play a game that has spy missions, usually they 3 stages, each with an objective, successfully completing all three increases your rewards. They should definitely make it like that. Oh... Wait that game's called, Warframe! 😅 Silly me. Guess that it's not so bad after all. 

Noises already tip the guards off. So does triggering the lasers, so does messing up the door locks. That's why Lotus is forever yelling in my ear about data destruction is imminent and I'm forever having to tell her to chill because I got this. (I often take Rhino, because I don't really feel like trying to dodge all the corpus lasers so I just shout "time's up, let's do this!" and go all Leeroy Jenkins on them.) 

 

I figure the idea of keys and data masses may be worth considering, the rest of it, not so much. 

[Kotsender_Quasimir]

vor 10 Stunden schrieb Parzii:

You're using the frame that's built around making Spy as easy as possible. That's like complaining that hacking isn't involved enough because you use ciphers every time.

Ciphers aren't allowed in Sorties to make for challenge. Similarly certain Spy vaults could be completely nullified zones. Or introduce animal enemies that are able to "sniff you out" even when invisible if they got line of sight or with some AOE.

Just some ideas.

Right now "stealth" frames do indeed make any actual stealthy gameplay void.

Edited November 15, 2018 by Kotsender_Quasimir

[Hmm...interesting.]

7 hours ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

You're specifically talking about taking a frame and using abilities that allow you to walk past the enemies without engaging them, and complaining that you can do that? Does that really make sense to you? 

That's a great suggestion! I play a game that has spy missions, usually they 3 stages, each with an objective, successfully completing all three increases your rewards. They should definitely make it like that. Oh... Wait that game's called, Warframe! 😅 Silly me. Guess that it's not so bad after all. 

Noises already tip the guards off. So does triggering the lasers, so does messing up the door locks. That's why Lotus is forever yelling in my ear about data destruction is imminent and I'm forever having to tell her to chill because I got this. (I often take Rhino, because I don't really feel like trying to dodge all the corpus lasers so I just shout "time's up, let's do this!" and go all Leeroy Jenkins on them.) 

 

I figure the idea of keys and data masses may be worth considering, the rest of it, not so much. 

1) Yes it does make sense because the mission should be designed so that despite using a stealth frame, a challenge is still present.

2) Noises might tip rarely tip guards off, but they don't actually do anything about it. 

3) Part of the point that I was making is that you shouldn't be able to just go in with rhino and cheese the spy mission.

[LupisV0lk]

As @Loza03 says the community reacts rather badly when they're not spoon fed "content" 24/7. Just look at this year.

But don't let them hear that, they get rather cranky when they're called out for being the issue.