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The Old Problems


Hecking_Birb
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Has anyone ever noticed that pretty much all of the warframes favored by premade squads are the older warframes? Trinity was available on release, and she's a staple of nearly every squad due to her second ability offering so much free energy. Rhino was available on release, and he's a staple of Index credit farming. Nova is one of the first few warframes to be added after release, and her ability to speed enemies up/slow enemies down is invaluable.

I'm going to assume you're not seeing why I'm saying this, so let me put forth an argument: All of the Oldest Warframes Are Stupidly Strong For Farming, and That Sucks.

The newer warframes are amazing, let me tell you what. Khora is amazing for damage and CC, super enjoyable and satisfying to play. Harrow has great synergy between abilities, and proves to be one of the best supports, if not THE best. Nidus scales gloriously, and is undeniably among the top five most immortal warframes. The problem that arises is that they don't farm well. They don't make enemies run to their death faster, they can't nuke the map, they can't offer free energy for nearly no cost, they can't get immunity to a certain amount of damage and to all status effects for the cost of a measly 50 energy. My solution? Update the older warframes to feel almost like they were released last month. Make their abilities synergize rather than exist as if you still had to equip the abilities as mods. Remove the nukes entirely, too.

A counterpoint one would rather immediately throw out is "But then won't the grind be super unbearable?", to which I reply "Yes". If DE were to simply rework the frames to no longer be amazing at one singular thing, then farming for something like Condition Overload would be horrible. I do have an idea on how to fix that though: Make drops scale. Resources, mods, parts, make drops from enemies scale with level and unit rank (as in a Heavy Gunner should drop better resources than an Elite Lancer, and an Elite Lancer should drop better resources than a Roller, something like that). With that, the warframes that work at higher levels (such as Excalibur and Nidus) would be more valuable than the warframes that can just easily nuke the low level enemies. I still find it really dumb that one can get just as many Neurodes from farming excavation on Earth as one would get from farming defense on Eris, if not more.

Farming in Warframe shouldn't be about "do the exact same precise thing over and over and over if you want this one thing", it should be about "Do this general thing over and over for what you want, but you can do this thing however you want, as long as things die". More moving around, more using your favorite warframe, more playing the game.

Even if I'm speaking to deaf ears at this point, I feel that at least making enemy drops scale is something that needs to happen. Even if the older warframes aren't changed to be more reasonably powered and balanced, it would be enjoyable to at least be rewarded for going to a really high level in a survival or some such endless mission. A place where incredibly boring warframes can't flourish as well.

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1 hour ago, SupremeLeaderKyloRen said:

Nidus is pretty good for farming, I'm sure lots of people use him for farming.

Nidus is nice for his 2, I will admit. Still technically outclassed by Speedva on certain tilesets. You can absolutely kill S#&$ with Nidus, he just isn't very good for the stuff besides murder.

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1 hour ago, peterc3 said:

So do exactly what they have been doing and are going to continue to do despite you not noticing?

They reworked Nezha before even touching Rhino's ever-approaching obsoletion. They are on the right track though. Still nothing about increasing enemy drops at higher levels.

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2 minutes ago, peterc3 said:

I see Rhino all the time. You tell me how many times I've seen Nezha since he was released.

I did say in the post that the only reason he's still kicking is because of Iron Skin. His charge is a worse Virulence (sort of), his roar is outclassed by Chroma and Octavia, and his Stomp is worse than Limbo using Cataclysm with Stasis. Iron Skin can keep you from taking literally any damage though so yeah he's totally not literally one ability away from being obsolete

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2 minutes ago, Hecking_Birb said:

I did say in the post that the only reason he's still kicking is because of Iron Skin. His charge is a worse Virulence (sort of), his roar is outclassed by Chroma and Octavia, and his Stomp is worse than Limbo using Cataclysm with Stasis.

His Charge is a worse version of an ability Nidus uses that is central to his kit. His roar is worse than a similar skill that requires a build up on Chroma or a fairly squishy Octavia. Stomp is a worse version of an ability that prevents people not within range from damaging the enemies within range.

So instead of picking an entire squad of those frames, you pick Rhino who can do all of that, just not as well.

Have you ever played Rhino?

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10 minutes ago, peterc3 said:

His Charge is a worse version of an ability Nidus uses that is central to his kit. His roar is worse than a similar skill that requires a build up on Chroma or a fairly squishy Octavia. Stomp is a worse version of an ability that prevents people not within range from damaging the enemies within range.

So instead of picking an entire squad of those frames, you pick Rhino who can do all of that, just not as well.

Have you ever played Rhino?

*octavia is only squishy if you're not constantly invisible, which you reasonably should be

Okay, yes, it's reasonable to suggest that several abilities that are technically worse than other frames being put together can make for a good warframe. That's totally reasonable. Thing is, I've seen so few rhinos actually use those abilities, because they just really aren't that great.

I can do what Rhino does with Octavia, for real. The enemies are all focused on the Mallet instead of allies, which is really nice CC; I can keep myself and my allies invisible; I can offer everyone bonus damage in a really nice range; and to top it all off, I can offer energy regen and do a massive amount of damage with abilities alone. What can Rhino do that Octavia reasonably does worse?

Edited by Hecking_Birb
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1 hour ago, Hecking_Birb said:

Nidus is nice for his 2, I will admit. Still technically outclassed by Speedva on certain tilesets. You can absolutely kill S#&$ with Nidus, he just isn't very good for the stuff besides murder.

Nidus skills

1. Murder

2. CC

3. Team mate and self buff or tank

4. Healing AOE and murder assist

while Nidus has a primary focus on murder, he’s literally a jack of all trades.

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16 minutes ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

Nidus skills

1. Murder

2. CC

3. Team mate and self buff or tank

4. Healing AOE and murder assist

while Nidus has a primary focus on murder, he’s literally a jack of all trades.

No I entirely get what you mean, but those don't help to farm. Yes, Nidus is an endurance-based damage JOAT, but only the second ability can specifically be used to make farming drops more efficient, since it pulls enemies into the grasp of a Hydroid or whatnot. I think I can safely say Nidus is one of my most favorite warframes in the game. Not my most favorite, that spot is Harrow's. Right in my top 5, though. Just... would be nice if there weren't options that worked so much better for farming.

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3 hours ago, Hecking_Birb said:

They don't make enemies run to their death faster,

Max range Nidus larva (with mod). Enemies instantly become a helpless mass of fish in barrel. 1000000x faster than spova at medium range. Less walking for every one. I used nova all the time at one point but mr infested is faster in my exp for xp farm at Hydron.

honestly I don’t think people get just how useful a singularity grenade with insane range that can be detonated at will with toxin proc is. 

Snipe mobs overwhelming teammates or a defense objective from across a map. Or kill steal. Encourage wandering squadies to stay put by taking away their prey. 

Troll enemies endlessly. 30? 50? All helpless and no problem.

Nidus can buff and heal so.. 

That said, harrow, chroma, hydroid and nekki have their place.

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1 minute ago, (PS4)teacup775 said:

Max range Nidus larva (with mod). Enemies instantly become a helpless mass of fish in barrel. 1000000x faster than spova at medium range. Less walking for every one. I used nova all the time at one point but mr infested is faster in my exp for xp farm at Hydron.

honestly I don’t think people get just how useful a singularity grenade with insane range that can be detonated at will with toxin proc is. 

Snipe mobs overwhelming teammates or a defense objective from across a map. Or kill steal. Encourage wandering squadies to stay put by taking away their prey. 

Troll enemies endlessly. 30? 50? All helpless and no problem.

Nidus can buff and heal so.. 

That said, harrow, chroma, hydroid and nekki have their place.

Did you actually read anything here? I've already addressed the fact that Nidus' larva ability can work wonders in both a farming squad and as an invaluable part of his kit. Nidus is awesome, there's no debate on that tbh. The problem arises in the other warframes that don't have such a lovely ability.

As for Harrow/Chroma/Hydroid/Nekros, they all have their problems. Harrow's abilities require him to be doing the work and not his allies, Chroma's first and fourth abilities are fairly lackluster, Hydroid's kit is alright but not amazing, and Nekros is only really good for desecration.

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55 minutes ago, (PS4)teacup775 said:

Yes. High order bit, larva convergence is much faster than a spova, so yes he makes enemies move faster contrary to your assertion.

Speedva is faster on more constricted tilesets, but yes, Nidus' 2 works better everywhere else

Again, I've addressed that Nidus has Larva and that it works plenty fine, but this isn't about specifically Nidus.

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18 minutes ago, Hecking_Birb said:

Yes, Rhino is dangerously close to obsoletion.

You're very misinformed here methinks. Rhino still has one of the best self-defense abilities in the game in Iron Skin and Roar is just about the best buff in the game, second only to Octavia. Chroma is very comparable, but Rhino beats him out in general play. Stomp is great CC and Charge is his only real lackluster ability but is still gets use with the augment. I see it very unlikely that he'll ever be actually obsolete.

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29 minutes ago, Hecking_Birb said:

Yes, Rhino is dangerously close to obsoletion.

My rhino can handle any lvl content... Any mission... anyway, any how. Far from being obsolete and 2nd highest played frame. Yes i would like him to have a few minor tweaks like more armor and a passive allowing him to weild dual heavy blades... But otherwise, hes an incredibly good frame.

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1 minute ago, Atsia said:

You're very misinformed here methinks. Rhino still has one of the best self-defense abilities in the game in Iron Skin and Roar is just about the best buff in the game, second only to Octavia. Chroma is very comparable, but Rhino beats him out in general play. Stomp is great CC and Charge is his only real lackluster ability but is still gets use with the augment. I see it very unlikely that he'll ever be actually obsolete.

Octavia does everything better. CC is constantly active and actually does scaling damage, invisibility proves to be better than facetanking nearly all the time, and the buff is, as you've said, better than Rhino's.

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Just now, (PS4)big_eviljak said:

My rhino can handle any lvl content... Any mission... anyway, any how. Far from being obsolete and 2nd highest played frame. Yes i would like him to have a few minor tweaks like more armor and a passive allowing him to weild dual heavy blades... But otherwise, hes an incredibly good frame.

You're right, Rhino can in fact go to high level content. Good guns make that possible. You know who does it even better? ( ( ( Octavia ) ) ). I feel like a broken record here, but with everyone saying "Rhino isn't going to be obsolete", it's just a really good point. Invisibility is the best scaling way to not die, her damage abilities are nigh unparallelled, and her CC is great. She's not fun, I'll give you that, but she does the job better than him.

(I also personally think she looks better but that's pure opinion)

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2 minutes ago, Hecking_Birb said:

Octavia does everything better. CC is constantly active and actually does scaling damage, invisibility proves to be better than facetanking nearly all the time, and the buff is, as you've said, better than Rhino's.

Better? No... Rhinos buff is consistent. Allies need only be in range... No squatting or shooting in time, or hopping in time... Just take the damage buff and move along.

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