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Is the content drought worth it for a revisit to old stuff


Cephalycion
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After a few months in the forums and crawling through multiple posts talking about the lack of new content I feel that I need to give my take on it.

First things first, let's just agree that there's alot of things that need to be fixed in Warframe. Abandoned gamemodes like conclave and archwing, whole swaths of useless old mods like magnum force and those pure +status chance mods that I forgot the name of, the list goes on. Warframe in its current state works fine and fun but it is not without holes and crevices.

The argument is, if the devs ever went back to fix those issues, would the resulting content drought be worth it? Would the absence of new content for 6 months, 12 months be acceptable to the community, if those issues were fixed and improved on?

My opinion is yes and a hundred times yes.

Why? Because you create new content in the process anyways. Any and every update doesn't have to be a fortuna, or new quest. It just has to change something for the better, and that pretty much qualifies as "content" for me.

I personally would like to see a break from the trend of releasing a new open world every year and the dev team to go and revise old content so the game doesn't look like a mashup of failed and successful projects.

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 The comunity can want what they want on that part.

But from DE's side that would be a 100% nope.

That would be a long period of low sales followed by something you cant really sell as people already have it.

That is why DE does not do reworks exclusively for periods.

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1 hour ago, peterc3 said:

It's been, what, less than a week since Fortuna was released and this is already starting? What part of the threads from before Fortuna releasing was unclear?

Thats because Fortuna took almost a year to get here and its pretty light on content.

The timegate DE imposed on it also only creates a sinking feeling that without we would have already blazed throught this minuscule content.

Reworking could help making old content relevant without too much effort. Re-releasing old events would also be great to combat content drought.

 

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There will always be a 'content drought', its simple mathematics.

If something takes 50+ hours to make that you can play in 1 hour it is impossible to create enough content to always keep you going short of extreme grinds that just alienate players that have less time to play things.  Keep in mind things like Fortuna take many hundreds of hours to make.

This is the nature of games (and many things in general), it always takes much longer to create than to experience it.

The thing is there are always people that typically work either on the start, middle or end of the section, most bugs players see that need fixing unfortunately fall at the end of the process while the people at the start (and potentially middle) have other things to work on.  Though the groups often get bigger at each stage (the start being the smallest group).

At the end of the day it isn't an either/or option, both need to happen constantly.

Personally I don't mind waiting for a better end product (and not finding simple to discover bugs within 5 minutes), though I understand the nature of the above too.

Edited by Loswaith
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4 hours ago, Airwolfen said:

But from DE's side that would be a 100% nope.

That would be a long period of low sales followed by something you cant really sell as people already have it.

That is why DE does not do reworks exclusively for periods.

And that is exactly the reason Warframe is plagued with countless issues, which arise after you scratch on the surface.
How many people does it take to revisit weapons or mods? 10? 20? 50? I would say, even 1 person could do it. This does not detain new content as dramaticly as you describe.

"New content brings more sales" is a fool's policy. New customers bring sales. If the existing content is outdated and full of conceptional holes, it is more likely that a new customer will pass on the product entirely. For this new customer everything is new content. Eidolons, or soonTM big Orbs in Fortuna, will not and cannot bring new players into the game, because it takes time to get to this point in game progression. Long before a new customer can see Fortuna, he may leave, because Warframe is initially overhelimg with countless unexplained mechanics. Currently practised strategy favours existing "loyal" customers, not new ones.

Just one more example on mismanagement (at least in my opinion) - K-Drives. I am sure it devoured a lot of resources and time to delvelope this new mechanic. I am also sure, there are a lot of people who like those boards and have a blast scating all over the place. In my opinion it is usless fluff with 0 purpose. Does it enrich Warframe's lore or has a narrative or any purpose at all? It sounds cool telling your friends "..and you can skate", but beyound this, K-Drives are a shallow addition. Just like Lunaro, Framefighter etc. I came to Warframe to experience a fast paced action shooter, yet developers focus on useless fluff instead of fixing bogged down modding system or outdated scaling.

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5 minutes ago, ShortCat said:

Just one more example on mismanagement (at least in my opinion) - K-Drives. I am sure it devoured a lot of resources and time to delvelope this new mechanic. I am also sure, there are a lot of people who like those boards and have a blast scating all over the place. In my opinion it is usless fluff with 0 purpose. Does it enrich Warframe's lore or has a narrative or any purpose at all? It sounds cool telling your friends "..and you can skate", but beyound this, K-Drives are a shallow addition. Just like Lunaro, Framefighter etc. I came to Warframe to experience a fast paced action shooter, yet developers focus on useless fluff instead of fixing bogged down modding system or outdated scaling.

It's not useless, it makes people happy. That's about all there is to it - people enjoy it, therefore it has a use. Is it weird to have? Kinda. Should it be a priority over other systems in the game? Probably not. Should it exist? Personally, I don't think this is a question that can just be given a yes or a no. But am I glad it exists? Heck yeah.

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as much as I'd like DE to turn around and say "we're going to start looking at older stuff", I'm not gonna hold my breath. sometimes I wonder if maybe the sheer amount of things that could be looked at is off-putting, they take one look and think "off, that's a lot of work" and just decide "nope, gotta keep pushing forward". I know what that's like, anyone who works has that moment where you see a mountain of something and think "bruh, that's gonna take all day!", and I'm sure DE has these moments as well.

 

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4 hours ago, ShortCat said:

And that is exactly the reason Warframe is plagued with countless issues, which arise after you scratch on the surface.
How many people does it take to revisit weapons or mods? 10? 20? 50? I would say, even 1 person could do it. This does not detain new content as dramaticly as you describe.

"New content brings more sales" is a fool's policy. New customers bring sales. If the existing content is outdated and full of conceptional holes, it is more likely that a new customer will pass on the product entirely. For this new customer everything is new content. Eidolons, or soonTM big Orbs in Fortuna, will not and cannot bring new players into the game, because it takes time to get to this point in game progression. Long before a new customer can see Fortuna, he may leave, because Warframe is initially overhelimg with countless unexplained mechanics. Currently practised strategy favours existing "loyal" customers, not new ones.

Just one more example on mismanagement (at least in my opinion) - K-Drives. I am sure it devoured a lot of resources and time to delvelope this new mechanic. I am also sure, there are a lot of people who like those boards and have a blast scating all over the place. In my opinion it is usless fluff with 0 purpose. Does it enrich Warframe's lore or has a narrative or any purpose at all? It sounds cool telling your friends "..and you can skate", but beyound this, K-Drives are a shallow addition. Just like Lunaro, Framefighter etc. I came to Warframe to experience a fast paced action shooter, yet developers focus on useless fluff instead of fixing bogged down modding system or outdated scaling.

What I am saying is not that they souldn't at all. But that doing so exclusively is a really bad choice.

Reworks can't really be advertised to old players and new players are more likely fo find stuff on the old content and base their opinion on that.

Archwing for example is needing to get a rework. So what do they do? They create something new, Railjack, that they can advertise to both new and old players. And update archwing along side it.

That is a much safer way of going about things.

Edited by Airwolfen
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I feel that reworking the original(vanilla) game. Aka: Star Chart is 100% worth it.

Each planet needs a tile set unique to it so they feel unique.

Currently:

Mercury, Sedna, Eris, Ceres (Interior), Saturn share the asteroid & Grineer Galleon tileset.

Venus, Neptune, Europa, Eris, Mars (some nodes), Phobos, Pluto, Jupiter (Alerts usually) share all icy/snow/frozen tile sets. (Complete with Jupiter in the skybox....)

Earth (land missions), Mars (Grineer Base) Lua, Void, Jupiter, & Derelect each have unique maps

Which is a CRIME. Each planet should feel distinct. So a 2.0 rework for each planet is 100% needed.

Additionally, reworking the base game would make progression smoother, allow DE to add in DESPERATELY needed tutorials across the game, & add in refined mechanics to older maps.

But...for them to buckle down on it...

I don't think the (vocal) community could/is even capable of handling that.

Edited by (PS4)Zero_029
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I feel like there is a desperate need for Damage 3.0, including a rework of most mods, number tweaking for most warframes and reworks for some individual abilities, reworking enemy scaling (get rid of armor scaling etc.) and rebalancing essentially every weapon around these changes.

Many gamemodes being so bad and/or boring that everyone tries to avoid them as best as possible is another problem. There are many other good points people have raised in this thread and over the years which desperately need addressing. 

So from me, that would be a yes, but as others have pointed out, for DE this is unattractive as reworks and rebalances can't be sold, as people who complain about something being bad already have said thing.

Edited by Glitshy
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Well, considering we're on Mods 2.0, Damage 2.0, Parkour 2.0, Spy and Rescue and Sabotage 2.0 (though old sabotage missions still sometimes show up), Starmap 3.0 about to get Melee 3.0, nebulous plans for a Damage 3.0 that might also lead to a Mods 3.0, a recent UI overhaul (which I think was 2.5?), along with not-quite-new-versions reworks of Warframe ability progression (which, of we count paid alpha, is also a 2.0), mod fusion, Archwing Movement, Dojos, etc... 

I think it's safe to say DE will get back to old content that needs another look-see eventually, just not as quickly as some would like. And yes, it will probably be when they come up with some appropriate new content to go with it.

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If DE actually focused, instead of endlessly spiralling out of control with Steve's "content creep", we wouldn't even NEED any droughts for content to be remade. Because they would actually have to time to finish older stuff up without constantly needing to work more on more stuff.

Sometimes less is more.

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48 minutes ago, HugintheCrow said:

Sometimes less is more.

Just never release any new content. That would go over swell.

1 hour ago, Glitshy said:

I feel like there is a desperate need for Damage 3.0

The vocal majority would melt down if Slash were altered or done away with in favor of another system.

2 hours ago, (PS4)Zero_029 said:

Each planet needs a tile set unique to it so they feel unique.

This is happening at this very moment. 

6 hours ago, ShortCat said:

"New content brings more sales" is a fool's policy.

Then you make a F2P game that never adds new content and prove DE, and every F2P dev, wrong or do a study to disprove the industry, or put up any data that shows you are right and the entire game industry is wrong.

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Yes. I would much rather have a year with no new content but only fixes and balances. Though it doesn't matter to me personally anymore, I think proper introduction tutorials would bring in far more new players that adding yet another free roam world ever did. And I would much rather DE spend some money hiring more support staff to deal with 3+ weeks of waiting for support to answer back, than hiring new artists or developers or whatever they are currently spending their money on.

But I've long since accepted that those things will never happen.

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6 hours ago, CoolDudeMcCool said:

It's not useless, it makes people happy.

And I will not deny it. I already said that a lot of peoply will find enjoyment in K-Drives. My point was; "Is it wise to invest in new paint for the entrance door, when your basement is under water?"

3 hours ago, Airwolfen said:

What I am saying is not that they souldn't at all. But that doing so exclusively is a really bad choice.

Reworks can't really be advertised to old players and new players are more likely fo find stuff on the old content and base their opinion on that.

Archwing for example is needing to get a rework. So what do they do? They create something new, Railjack, that they can advertise to both new and old players. And update archwing along side it.

I am also not advertiseing to stop development of new content. However I think, first there should be a solid base on top of that you can build. If the base is unstable, everything you build on it, will be affected.
Archwing needed a rework since its release day in 2015; while the idea was solid, initial implemetnation not. It was launched unfinished, like many other half done elements. Over the years, DE created so many loose ends, that they cannot stop ever-growing rework flood. If they could focus and release a finished product, there would be no reason to fix it later.

25 minutes ago, peterc3 said:

Just never release any new content. That would go over swell.

Then you make a F2P game that never adds new content and prove DE, and every F2P dev, wrong or do a study to disprove the industry, or put up any data that shows you are right and the entire game industry is wrong. 

Why are you dealing in absolutes. I also do not see where the people you quote are telleng DE to stop releasing new content. Just like in your first response, you are missing the intent behind every comment in this thread. @Cephalycion started this discussion with a request to fix abandoned aspects of the game, the sum of which is more then the next update could provide. His timing is also perfect: right when DE lounched a big update, released some pressure and before dive into the next open world project.
Now read your first post. Reading and understanding - F.

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8 hours ago, ShortCat said:

"New content brings more sales" is a fact.

FTFY.

Services release new content to attract attention and remain current in relevant conversations...These things attract sales.

Works for shoes, games, sammiches, and even gasoline additives.

It's why places like E3 even exists...It's also why there are groups with so much market recognition that they don't bother to go anymore.

As to the rest of your post, You have every right to your opinion... But opinions aren't facts.

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4 hours ago, Glitshy said:

I feel like there is a desperate need for Damage 3.0, including a rework of most mods, number tweaking for most warframes and reworks for some individual abilities, reworking enemy scaling (get rid of armor scaling etc.) and rebalancing essentially every weapon around these changes.

Won't lie. This is...dead on.

I do think that just like the weapon rebalance this is SEVERELY needed.

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vor 3 Stunden schrieb peterc3:

The vocal majority would melt down if Slash were altered or done away with in favor of another system.

Would they though? Maybe I'm part of a minority with this opinion, but I find one damage type 1 of 13 being essentially the only thing effective against high level enemies due to armor boring and I have no love for Slash aside from being more or less forced to use it. Remember Zenurik energy regen and people losing it about it's removal? People got over it and I'd argue the game is in a better state (though far from perfect) with this one focus tree no longer feeling mandatory for every caster frame.

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6 minutes ago, Glitshy said:

Would they though?

Probably...

I mean this whole thread is a long rambling argument asking for the thing players got from DE for the bulk of 2018.

Said argument being made literally on the heels of a complaint regarding the exact opposite only a week or two ago.

...Go figure.

7 minutes ago, Glitshy said:

Maybe I'm part of a minority with this opinion, but I find one damage type 1 of 13 being essentially the only thing effective against high level enemies due to armor boring and I have no love for Slash aside from being more or less forced to use it.

But you aren't forced to use it... You choose to use it.

Everyone doesn't feel pigeonholed into using or maximizing one stat.

Sure, there's an argument to be had for comparative balance... But nerfing and adjusting everything to fit in with the lowest common denominator in the equation is more work than simply bringing lowliers up instead.

The only argument against such a course is powercreep which we all know is inevitable over time and is fodder for an entirely different discussion.

 

10 minutes ago, Glitshy said:

Remember Zenurik energy regen and people losing it about it's removal? People got over it and I'd argue the game is in a better state (though far from perfect) with this one focus tree no longer feeling mandatory for every caster frame.

Some did... Some were obliged to adjust and still hate the new system.

I know some that simply stopped playing when PoE launched and the changes took effect.

Arcanes existed so it wasn't mandatory for so-called caster frames even then...Likewise energy hasn't been particularly difficult to amass in years.

A caster relying solely on the passive energy regen from Zen wasn't going to be doing that much casting.

...The only thing Zenurik truly afforded players was the option to not bother fiddling with Focus and Operators at all and still get something out of it imo.

That was a nice option...I rather miss it. 

 

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3 hours ago, Padre_Akais said:

FTFY.

New content will of course bring revenue. BUT major goal of every expanding company, not only in the gaming industry, is to get access to new markets, because entirely new customers have more potential to spend money on your already existing assortment. This is the reason so many companies beg for access to fairly isolated Chinese market. Blizzard and Diablo Eternal anyone? In order to get access to new customers Blizzard let an aggressive Chinese mobile game developer work on their new titel, because otherwise Blizzard cannot easely sell its products there.
I have a question for you - who might spend more money on Warframe? A mr26 founder or a fresh player? New content will of course drive attention, however, if the inital game experience is not satisfying, this new p(l)ayer could give up long before he get the chance to experience it or make some transfers. Furthermore, if you think some flashy extra fluff is more important than a solid and functioning basis...well, that's just your opinion.

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