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Endgame = Objective Completetion Time?


Nez-Kal
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So, DE stated in their last Devstream that the Orb Mothers (Such as Profit-Taker) are going to be Difficult, but with the ability to include New Players into the mix and let them dip their Toes. Already a lot of folks are guessing this will mean certain Consoles and Stations will need to be hacked at certain times while others are Shooty-shooty-Bang-bang-ing the Orbs themselves. Makes sense.

But IMMEDIATELY you have a lot of outspoken folks (Like the Warframe Partners) claiming that "Eidolons aren't Endgame, and Orbs will be EVEN LESS Endgame", which makes me think "Huh. Considering what you need to take down an Eidolon in the first place, I'd think they WERE Endgame content, as you can't just waltz into them unprepared and take them down in a doable amount of time". But hey, what do I know, right?

 

My guess the reason such Folks think this is, well, Mission Objective Completion Time. Because, with the right gear, you can take down the Tridolons in about 20-25 minutes, and repeat them again in one night. So even after EVERYTHING they require to even GET to that point.....it doesn't matter. Not Endgame. Can Farm Too Fast Fast.

 

So, with this in mind, I'm assuming Endgame for these Folks equals "Mission Objective that takes AT MINIMUM 40 Minutes to Complete", or something. Something that requires constantly running around, pulling levers, killing Enemy Spawns and collecting the "Raid-Resource" drops to Activate the Portal, to then transverse the Upside-Down, to unlock the Console (1 of 6) which will hack the Door (5 Minutes to Complete, must be Defended until then and fed "Raid-Resource" to keep on Hacking), which will eventually open, which will let you fight "The Boss" and take 1/3rd of its Health down, ONLY to have to repeat the entire process when they Banish you from the Arena, etc. Etc. ETC.

Does that sound about right?

 

Edited by Tangent-Valley
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I demand new warframe partners that actually add to the community. 

As for the orbs, I'm waiting to see. I'm getting a raids vibe as well and that kind of sours it for me (my first attempt failed in the trials because the guy that offered to teach us got upset and told us to off ourselves because we're bad), but I'm gonna try and stay unbiased and give them a try first.

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3 minutes ago, Wind_Blade said:

You mean 8-12 minutes ? That the average time i do 😀

Show's you how out of the "MAXIMUM EFFICIENCY!!!" Loop I am. X'D

But I feel the point still stands: "Can Farm Too Fast Fast? NOT ENDGAME!!!"

Edited by Tangent-Valley
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If the mission takes too long there will be complaints about it being too grindy. Honestly I don't think there is a way for DE to do "proper end-game" with one gamemode to rule them all. But with ESO, Arbitrations, Eidolons and soon Orbs I think there are plenty of options to choose from that can be called somewhat end-game.

Edited by tbeest
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21 minutes ago, Wind_Blade said:

Well Raids was one of the best endgame content we get.. yes it's was not so hard if we have experienced players. But it's was the gamemode that allow veterans to play with their friend and play with newbie to teach them how to do.

I wouldn't label content where first the host is allowed to delay mission start until everyone meets their self imposed rules, then players have to stand in a button watching the bomb carrier do their thing; then have to either disconnect to make the puzzle easier for players staying in and then reconnect once the stage progresses because the puzzle is complete or have to stand on buttons again while not being allowed to kill anything nor move because everyone else dies; only to then do the bomb thing again but this time in a small arena with vay kek "difficulting" things only to be killed in a few seconds once his invincibility is removed as "the best endgame content we get". And that's without even talking about that buggy mess called JV. Raids were badly designed, were unintuitive, bred toxicity and elitism, and also encouraged the abuse of bugs and glitches to be as efficient as possible in them. The only reason why players miss them is for being the only 8 player coop mission but that's far from turning them into engaging content, let alone "the best endgame" in warframe.

If you had fun that way, good for you, but don't try to paint them as something they clearly were not.

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il y a 4 minutes, ----Legacy---- a dit :

I wouldn't label content where first the host is allowed to delay mission start until everyone meets their self imposed rules, then players have to stand in a button watching the bomb carrier do their thing; then have to either disconnect to make the puzzle easier for players staying in and then reconnect once the stage progresses because the puzzle is complete or have to stand on buttons again while not being allowed to kill anything nor move because everyone else dies; only to then do the bomb thing again but this time in a small arena with vay kek "difficulting" things only to be killed in a few seconds once his invincibility is removed as "the best endgame content we get". And that's without even talking about that buggy mess called JV. Raids were badly designed, were unintuitive, bred toxicity and elitism, and also encouraged the abuse of bugs and glitches to be as efficient as possible in them. The only reason why players miss them is for being the only 8 player coop mission but that's far from turning them into engaging content, let alone "the best endgame" in warframe.

If you had fun that way, good for you, but don't try to paint them as something they clearly were not.

Wow. Toxic and elitism.. can we pause one second and watch for eidolon that ask for 200-300 caps.. yea no that only for people that want 5x3, so no max run asked was like 20-30 run only for most elite one and even. Most of people that play raids was friendly .. (that not because you meet some bad guys that represents the whole communty)


The fact it's was daily without ask to farm it allow player to meet their friend daily for 3 runs of raid (3 raids or 2 if you don't do the nightmare are enough) without speaking that no one want to teach new players about eidolon. The raids ? their is a whole community created for teach the new players into the raids. So yea .the community is not toxic it's even frendly, don't confound people that want to speedrun with normal runs.

So yea endgame mean it's can be even when you finihs the game, the raid was the only gamemode where their community still play them after years. (the reason are sayed) early

And the bug, yea that a big cliché of the raids, they was bug .. but the true bug that break the gamemode was rare. We got some of theses bug but it's often get patched quick, i do raid daily for mounth and i get gamemode bug breaking only one time for 2 month of playing

So yea this cliché is totaly false

 

The game design of jordas was really cool, why ? because it's was the first gamemode of the game to using the arcwhing correctly. Arcwhing is good but don't get any cool gamemode where it's correctly used, that why nobody play arcwhing. Jordas Verdict use perfectly the parkour system of warframe, you know the parkour system that make warframe really unique in his genre. And it's was the only gamemode that ask true cooperation between players. yes some people don't like the fact that you need to play coop in a COOP GAME.. it's pretty stupid. And yea some gamemdoe can't be solo, that because it's was never intented to be playing solo, it's a GOD DAMMIT COOP game, that why some of the gamemode in Warframe are not intented to be played solo.
 

Raids also introduce the 8 player gammode, it's also the essense of the raids, because it's help for people to coperate between them and allow for newbie to play with veterans because their is enough space for them to come. Without speaking of the fact it's allow players to bring what they want. Meta in raids don't exist.. when you don't know really them yes cc is better, but after you litteraly can do raids with 8 zephyr and only mk1 weapons as long p:layer are cooperative. Which is good in a coop game where some people don't like forced meta.

The only bad point about raids is the introduction of them, most of player only know the existence because some friend told them about or a youtuber make a video about it. They was hidden in the market without any introduction. + the fact that game don't teach you how to do them but that nothing to do with the gamemode himself more how the game introduce them.

That was raids is truly are i don't paint them don't stop a gamemode only because you don't unserstand that some people want to do speedrun, play with your friend if you don't find casual squad in region chat but don't blame the gamemode.

So yea all your argument are cliché and false things about raids

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I mean, [DE]Steve did explicitly tell us this in Devstream 100 (one of the most overlooked things in that entire stream IMO).

 

Not perfect quotes, but he said "We want Raids in Warframe to be something everyone can do, but veterans can do better." Now, Eidolons are not "Raids" per se, but they are most certainly a 'Raid' boss. And I think this is a great approach for DE to take with this.

 

And this brings me to the Eidolons and the night cycle. I know it is hated by a fair portion of the community, but the time limit of the night cycle is what makes Eidolon hunts an end-game activity. The night cycle effectively makes your time three times more valuable in Eidolon hunts, meaning that the "skill" curve for being able to quickly take them out is three times as valuable. This is, IMO, a good thing. Without this value multiplier Eidolons would be too easy to get value out of to actually reward 'veteran' players. I can say personally that without a clock on Eidolon hunts the "ting" audio cue of a kill would have much less of an emotional payoff.

 

Edit: Steve talking about "anyone can do, few can master" thing. 1:46:16

 

Edited by DrBorris
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il y a 1 minute, DrBorris a dit :

I mean, [DE]Steve did explicitly tell us this in Devstream 100 (one of the most overlooked things in that entire stream IMO).

 

Not perfect quotes, but he said "We want Raids in Warframe to be something everyone can do, but veterans can do better." Now, Eidolons are not "Raids" per se, but they are most certainly a 'Raid' boss. And I think this is a great approach for DE to take with this.

 

And this brings me to the Eidolons and the night cycle. I know it is hated by a fair portion of the community, but the time limit of the night cycle is what makes Eidolon hunts an end-game activity. The night cycle effectively makes your time three times more valuable in Eidolon hunts, meaning that the "skill" curve for being able to quickly take them out is three times as valuable. This is, IMO, a good thing. Without this value multiplier Eidolons would be too easy to get value out of to actually reward 'veteran' players. I can say personally that without a clock on Eidolon hunts the "ting" audio cue of a kill would have much less of an emotional payoff.

Well honestly i love eidolons to but their are more meta than raids.
And raids can be for newbie to if some people teach newbie how to do them .. but for eidolons without the good stuff you can't really do a triodolon

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Well, they are not wrong. When I think endgame, I think something you have to do on a daily basis and that is, at least, mildly hard to solo or to do in a group.

Eidolons are a joke.

27 minutes ago, Wind_Blade said:

yes some people don't like the fact that you need to play coop in a COOP GAME.. it's pretty stupid. And yea some gamemdoe can't be solo, that because it's was never intented to be playing solo, it's a GOD DAMMIT COOP game, that why some of the gamemode in Warframe are not intented to be played solo.

I don't think it's stupid at all. In many other games you can do coop content solo, at the cost of much lower efficiency/higher difficulty, just like every content in Warframe now.

I like playing public matches just to make the matches feel a bit more alive, however RELYING on others to get something, non-DPS-related, done, something that can delay the mission by several minutes, is a whole different story.

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5 minutes ago, Wind_Blade said:

Well honestly i love eidolons to but their are more meta than raids.
And raids can be for newbie to if some people teach newbie how to do them .. but for eidolons without the good stuff you can't really do a triodolon

I mean, the barrier for entry is basically "are you no longer a new player". If you want to start hunting, all you need is to finish TWW and have a single target DPS weapon spec'd for Radiation damage. Of course you won't be one shotting limbs, doing a full Tridolon, or anything like that, but you are doing the content. You don't have to be optimal in order to complete a hunt, the more you progress in the game and the better you get mechanically will reward you with an increased value for your time.

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il y a 1 minute, DrBorris a dit :

I mean, the barrier for entry is basically "are you no longer a new player". If you want to start hunting, all you need is to finish TWW and have a single target DPS weapon spec'd for Radiation damage. Of course you won't be one shotting limbs, doing a full Tridolon, or anything like that, but you are doing the content. You don't have to be optimal in order to complete a hunt, the more you progress in the game and the better you get mechanically will reward you with an increased value for your time.

Well, raids are designed that as long you know what to do and cooperation you can do it so yea newbie can do it with some friends.
But eidolons ask a bigger level and more mods and weapons.. I'm not against, after all their are not designed for newbie to do it. Some gamemode in the game need to be not for newbie i'm not against that, so yea more you progress in the game himself more you can do eidolons hunt faster?.

Both are not create in the same level deisgn way

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1 minute ago, (PS4)iQuedas said:

Eidolons are a joke.

No, they are a joke for you.

If you want to get the most value for your time from Eidolons they are most certainly not a joke, simply just 'completing' and Eidolon hunt is not the highest tier. It is content explicitly designed around encouraging and more importantly rewarding speed runs. And to complete speed runs, you need to have party coordination, min-maxed gear, a degree of mechanical skill, and a fair understanding of game mechanics.

I mean, if you are a veteran player with all of the best gear in the game and a deep understanding of complex game mechanics, would you not expect Eidolons to be simple? You can't judge how difficult content is from a single perspective, you need to take a step back and look at the big picture. Just look at how many threads that complain about the 'meta' being too strict for Eidolons (which is massively overstated in most cases as a strict meta is only necessary for the maximum value), why would the meta be so "strict" in these people's eyes if it was just a "joke" to hunt Eidolons?

 

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14 minutes ago, Spectre-8 said:

They will quickly get called out by the "commuMEME" for being trolls , toxic youtubers and elitists .

Pretty sure you already know how this goes.

 

 

It is a sad fact but would be nice to get a breath of fresh air that doesn't use heavy clickbait for a bit before the memes take over. Except this isn't a thread solely about the partners. It's mainly about the impression we got about the orb fights. 

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1 minute ago, Sajochi said:

It's mainly about the impression we got about the orb fights. 

DE barely gave out any information , makes you wonder how and why Fortuna was in development for 1 year ( or more we don't know ) ?

Edited by Spectre-8
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20 hours ago, DrBorris said:

No, they are a joke for you.

If you want to get the most value for your time from Eidolons they are most certainly not a joke, simply just 'completing' and Eidolon hunt is not the highest tier. It is content explicitly designed around encouraging and more importantly rewarding speed runs. And to complete speed runs, you need to have party coordination, min-maxed gear, a degree of mechanical skill, and a fair understanding of game mechanics.

I mean, if you are a veteran player with all of the best gear in the game and a deep understanding of complex game mechanics, would you not expect Eidolons to be simple? You can't judge how difficult content is from a single perspective, you need to take a step back and look at the big picture. Just look at how many threads that complain about the 'meta' being too strict for Eidolons (which is massively overstated in most cases as a strict meta is only necessary for the maximum value), why would the meta be so "strict" in these people's eyes if it was just a "joke" to hunt Eidolons?

Using meta tactics has nothing to do with something being considered endgame or not. If people want experienced players to have very efficient runs, of course their own requirements will be high. Pub matches still require zero experience and, unlike trials, you can actually practice eidolon hunting on your own before going pub.

And even so, you don't have to run eidolon hunt daily and the rewards aren't very appealing as well. Outside of 5x3/4x3 eidolon hunting groups, nothing/no one requires you to have arcanes or maxed focus school.

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The end of that OP sounded almost like JV. 

On another note, trials had a lower barrier to entry than Eidolons. For those that had a bad experience in trials, I'm sorry that happened to you but don't let a few bad apples poison your entire experience.

JV was some of the best team fun I've ever had in Warframe and it's a shame that many players will never experience that. It made the most fun out of archwing to date and is the reason I even made builds for my arch-weapons.

I feel like DE only took them out to push Eidolons with the excuse being that trials had too many bugs but every major update someone brings up Eidolon bugs sooo yeah.

 

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Endgame in normal games is BOTH something that only prepared players aka veterans can do - either because of their gear or knowledge or both and something that handsomly rewards you for your trouble. And most of the times, endagme content is hard even for those people. So no. In warfarme it's never the case. If endgame content will be hard for veterans, average players wont even dream of beating it. So DE never does that.

Warframe being a looter doesnt provide any of mentioned above. You dont need to be a veteran to get an amp or a sniper rifle, you just need to patiently farm low level content. And whats more important, rewards are dog***. You supposed to grind them, not FOR them like in other games. The only worth mentioning thing Eidolon drop is arcanes, but  since you need 10 to even get an effect out of it and can have 20 it also becomes meaningless when you get one, and even arcanes itself arent that good because warframes are powerful as it is (or because most are just pure garbage). If in other games you grind for a chance to get a gear, but once you get it it's like a wow, a revelation, something that is absurdly powerful, in warframe you feel like "meh. 9 or 11 more of those and i will be able not to rely on energy pads, how awesome is that not".

??????

On another note, trials had a lower barrier to entry than Eidolons. 

You're nuts. Only lazy people could have had problems with Eidolons because unlike raids, you can solo farm for amps and solo farm Terralysts once you get a better amp. You couldnt possibly solo run raids to get records in your log which would make your attempts to find a group alot easier. You also can fidn a group that does ammount of runs you're comfortable with, if you're as prepared for trials there's no easy route for you. You eitehr do everything thats needed, get hard carried - and that is if that even possible - or fail.

Edited by -Temp0-
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On ?2018?-?11?-?17 at 9:49 AM, Kyoresh said:

 if you can do someting fast and easy its not endgame

Not true. 

If you can do your raid endgame fast and easily, it's called being on farm status. That's when you've mastered your present content and are gearing up for the Next Big Thing. That IS the goal. When you reach it, you know you've arrived. For now. 

Now WF isn't WoW and is certainly not EQ, but that's what you're all going on about. I think it's past time it was acknowledged that WF is about the journey and not the end. This game is more like PSO and Diablo than the more traditional MMORPGs like those mentioned. Endgame is a nebulous concept and prattling on about something that barely exists here and only existed briefly (a few months before the next expansion) in games like WoW doesn't do anyone any favors. 

I don't expect to spend every waking moment in this game gearing up or practicing for raids. It's neither what I want or what I came for. I do like collecting stuff and doing what I like when I like, not adhering to some schedule to show up and herd cats at a specific agreed upon time. 

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10 minutes ago, Sloan441 said:

If you??? can do your raid endgame fast and easily, it's called being on farm ?status. That's when you've mastered your present content ?and are gearing up for the Next Big Thing. That IS the goal. ?When you reach it, you know you've arrived. For now. 

and that is the point where it no longer is considered Endgame.

11 minutes ago, Sloan441 said:

I? do like collecting stuff and doing what I like when I like, not ?adhering to some schedule to show up and herd cats at a specific agreed upon time. ???

I agree on that, but what I mean by Endgame is something that challenges your Loadout and your own skill.

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