Elite Mode Starchart? A possible solution for the "Lack of Endgame" problem

[Aiden.WD]

I like the idea but seems that DE does not care about Endgame content or Veterans players.

[(PSN)Jedi_Arts_]

14 hours ago, deothor said:

Even if that'd be made I'm afraid DE would figure a way to make it into pointless grindfest

All I can really say is I hope not. Personally, I think that an available difficulty adjustment to the game would just be a good step toward making things more interesting for longtime players regardless of the rewards. If we can just get that done first, even if there is no reward system (or it's terrible) then that's something that can be potentially remedied over time through player feedback. But as the game is now, the low enemy levels are just something that can't really be fixed well by waiting like an hour for scaling, or trying one of these disappointing game modes like Arbitration. I think we just need to get the ball rolling on the enemy difficulty first before we stagnate in this stale level 40 Starchart for even more years.

[(PSN)Jedi_Arts_]

12 hours ago, Amhiel said:

I fully support the idea of OP. That's basically a 'new game +' which I think is much needed in Warframe. I'd totally be down to replay the star chart and quests in "elite" mode or even, if you want to make it more coherent with what's already in the game, in "arbitration mode" with a single life and drones and all, starting at level 60 or more on earth and going up 20 levels per planet. I don't even care about the rewards. Right now I have like 20 weapons waiting in the foundry to be collected, leveled and formated into WMDs but every time I think of collecting them my mind goes: "and what am I gonna use it for?"

This post basically perfectly captures the emotion behind why this is so important. As much as we all love to have new game items thrown at us in Warframe, what people really want is just something to do with all the amazing stuff we've gotten so far. Have the Devs really given enough thought to how empty the game is when you have built up to 37 optimized Warfame loadouts, yet have nothing you want to do with them? I'm tired of the Endgame of this game basically existing in the Simulacrum, the one place in the game you can appropriately adjust game difficulty.There are dozens of nodes ready to be utilized for that purpose. 

This game is never going to live up to its potential until we get the numbers right. I've seen a lot of people recommending these complex damage system reworks and comprehensive enemy reworks that would probably take as long to develop as Melee 3.0. None of that is necessary. That game is already fun and competitive enough at level 100-150. Giving us a toggle to influence that scaling could probably go into the game like next month or so with a small about of Dev resources devoted to it. So why isn't happening? I'm guessing because they haven't realized the need for it yet, or it's just not a priority next to putting out this new content that is just supposed to be for visual wow factor and such.

PS. If this Elite Mode toggle went into the game, I'd wager that we would see some build videos on Youtube and such that took place in actual Missions instead of almost exclusively the Simulacrum. Wouldn't that be mind blowing? Build videos tested in the real game.

Edited November 28, 2018 by (PS4)Jedi_Arts_

[Atsia]

26 minutes ago, (PS4)Jedi_Arts_ said:

That game is already fun and competitive enough at level 100-150. Giving us a toggle to influence that scaling could probably go into the game like next month or so with a small about of Dev resources devoted to it. So why isn't happening? I'm guessing because they haven't realized the need for it yet, or it's just not a priority next to putting out this new content that is just supposed to be for visual wow factor and such. 

Another reason is probably that one of the biggest things that always comes up in these discussions is that the majority of the minority have repeatedly said that upping the starting level is NOT suitable challenge and won't really change anything in the long run.

[0_The_F00l]

I fully support this thought process. 

I think the milestone should be killing all the bosses in the star chart (solo?) to unlock it.

The rewards should scale up by

quantity (default 50% extra)

or quality  (all RNG drop items slightly skewed like radiant relics, remove all credit drop rewards - elites don't need no credits)

and not be new items (except cosmetics maybe). 

Not entirely sure about a currency system, as that would imply having new rewards to be purchased with it and if it's new... It will be dumbed down for new players.

 

[Unholy_Ghost]

10 hours ago, (PS4)Jedi_Arts_ said:

This post basically perfectly captures the emotion behind why this is so important. As much as we all love to have new game items thrown at us in Warframe, what people really want is just something to do with all the amazing stuff we've gotten so far. Have the Devs really given enough thought to how empty the game is when you have built up to 37 optimized Warfame loadouts, yet have nothing you want to do with them? I'm tired of the Endgame of this game basically existing in the Simulacrum, the one place in the game you can appropriately adjust game difficulty.There are dozens of nodes ready to be utilized for that purpose. 

This game is never going to live up to its potential until we get the numbers right. I've seen a lot of people recommending these complex damage system reworks and comprehensive enemy reworks that would probably take as long to develop as Melee 3.0. None of that is necessary. That game is already fun and competitive enough at level 100-150. Giving us a toggle to influence that scaling could probably go into the game like next month or so with a small about of Dev resources devoted to it. So why isn't happening? I'm guessing because they haven't realized the need for it yet, or it's just not a priority next to putting out this new content that is just supposed to be for visual wow factor and such.

PS. If this Elite Mode toggle went into the game, I'd wager that we would see some build videos on Youtube and such that took place in actual Missions instead of almost exclusively the Simulacrum. Wouldn't that be mind blowing? Build videos tested in the real game.

Why are people like you so dense regarding enemy scalling? it won't matter if the levels are ranked up to 150 level from min 0, even more op mods & weapons will be released in order to make the gameplay easy. The enemy stays the same, only the hp, armor and damage changes, this is a stupid solution. Why would you want more instakill bullet sponges as enemies when they can nerf our damage mods to not instakill entire armies and nerf mana regeneration to not spam our ultimates that nuke entire rooms. I assure you that enemies at lvl 40 and beyond do enough damage to kill you easily they just dont get the chance.

[(PSN)teacup775]

On 2018-11-18 at 11:57 AM, iHaku said:

I agree. since those whouldnt even be new missions or content, you should just get more reward for more challenge, instead of different rewards for different challenges.

Higher level enemies don’t much offer more challenge. Once a bullet one shots an enemy nothing more is needed. 

Gearing removes nearly all challenge in play because 99% of wframe enemies are dumb as door nails.

Edited November 28, 2018 by (PS4)teacup775

[O2D3nTe]

6 minutes ago, Unholy_Ghost said:

Why are people like you so dense regarding enemy scalling? it won't matter if the levels are ranked up to 150 level from min 0, even more op mods & weapons will be released in order to make the gameplay easy. The enemy stays the same, only the hp, armor and damage changes, this is a stupid solution. Why would you want more instakill bullet sponges as enemies when they can nerf our damage mods to not instakill entire armies and nerf mana regeneration to not spam our ultimates that nuke entire rooms. I assure you that enemies at lvl 40 and beyond do enough damage to kill you easily they just dont get the chance.

The elite star chart with the current enemy scaling is not the ultimate and final solution to all the problems in Warframe, but it could, and should be implemented first. You can always have it now, since it's relatively easy to add to the game. The concept will still be good if later on DE decide to really tackle the whole scaling issue. You need the star chart to start low level for new players, so you'll always need something like OP mentioned to offer those same early planets replay-ability later on.

Realistically, we're much more likely to get something like this than the full rework of damage/mods/defense scaling.

But if tomorrow I could get anything I want for the game, then sure, at the top of my list would be a rework our weapons/frames/enemies scaling.

[(PSN)teacup775]

4 minutes ago, O2D3nTe said:

The concept will still be good if later on DE decide to really tackle the whole scaling issue.

Enemies just are not that interesting to fight. They are a monotone of combat. Scaling simply changes how fast the monotone dies.

[Unholy_Ghost]

Scalling mods to apropiate levels is not hard to do, it take about the same amount of time to code the starting level of enemies. DE is afraid to do this because of the backlash stupid people will scream because they don't understand its in their best interest that  the game needs to be more challenging and interesting by not instakilling everything.

Look at the Nulifier problem, people screamed harder and better enemies, DE gave them the Nulifier who origginally negated ranged weapons from outside the bubble and abilities from inside. Finally an enemy that you had to move your ass and think differently on how you should take him out. What happend? People raged OP and stupid gimmick nerf!!!! and he got nerfed to oblivion. Same will happen with the elite starchart if implemented.

Edited November 28, 2018 by Unholy_Ghost

[iHaku]

1 hour ago, (PS4)teacup775 said:

Higher level enemies don’t much offer more challenge. Once a bullet one shots an enemy nothing more is needed. 

you contradict yourself in 2 simple sentences, bravo.

if a bullet one shots an enemy, then that enemy apperently is too low of a level as his health and armor values are below your gearlevel. i doubth that you can 1shot 999 enemies with a "bullet", or really anything besides that dagger mod.

999 is obviously too high for what people want, but since that's too high, and level 50 is too low, that means that a happy medium does actually exist between the two, which is what people are asking for.

[Unholy_Ghost]

34 minutes ago, iHaku said:

you contradict yourself in 2 simple sentences, bravo.

if a bullet one shots an enemy, then that enemy apperently is too low of a level as his health and armor values are below your gearlevel. i doubth that you can 1shot 999 enemies with a "bullet", or really anything besides that dagger mod.

999 is obviously too high for what people want, but since that's too high, and level 50 is too low, that means that a happy medium does actually exist between the two, which is what people are asking for.

Killing 999 with one bullet each is not fun either.

[iHaku]

1 hour ago, Unholy_Ghost said:

Killing 999 with one bullet each is not fun either.

not sure how that is what you got from my post. i never argued for more damage/survivability. Much to the contrary, i think that on that front we're already more then served.

but highlevel enemy availability is just not a thing right now. People wanna have a use for their strong and forma'd warframes and weapons.

It doesnt matter if you make enemies do backflips or make them spin in a circle and say "look at what enemy variety and interesting concepts we have", when their hp due to their level is so low that sneezing in their general direction takes them out already. you cant fight a dead enemy, First they need to survive our weapons for a few seconds before we can talk about interesting enemy types and designs (besides warframes actually having a decent enemy variety, but you never really see it)

 

Edited November 28, 2018 by iHaku

[(PSN)Jedi_Arts_]

3 hours ago, Unholy_Ghost said:

Why are people like you so dense regarding enemy scalling?

So we're "dense" for wanting to progress the game forward instead of asking to nerf ourselves back to 2014?

3 hours ago, Unholy_Ghost said:

it won't matter if the levels are ranked up to 150 level from min 0, even more op mods & weapons will be released in order to make the gameplay easy.

So we're going to assume that DE is going to turn the powercreep up to 11 just because this happened? We're still trying here to come up with a good recommendation for the future in case DE were to notice of the feedback on thread, and various other similar threads I've seen lately. Coming up with good ideas for them doesn't work if we just assume "it won't matter because they'll just turn around and ruin it with powercreep after that anyways." That same thinking applies to what you're recommending as well. What if they come out with all of these nerfs, and the powercreep just reverses it?

3 hours ago, Unholy_Ghost said:

nerf our damage mods to not instakill entire armies and nerf mana regeneration to not spam our ultimates that nuke entire rooms.

Those are not simple nerfs you're referring to. I'm not saying something like that is impossible to work. But I don't think you've realized yet how low level the Starchart really is compared our our loadouts now. It would take extensive reworks of Weapons, Warframes, Modding, and Energy to make things work at level like 40-50 again. That's also quite a nerf to force on a community that would not take very kindly to it. I am trying for a solution that would not be a mandatory nerf to force on all players, it would be optional. And it wouldn't take nearly the amount of Dev resources. Also, why would we want to progress backward like that? Because enemies deal more damage at higher levels? Bro it's not that hard to survive at level 100. Some people would argue that I am being conservative for recommending level 100 as an Elite Mode.

 

I'm going to end on what this other guy said because it was a really good point.

3 hours ago, O2D3nTe said:

The elite star chart with the current enemy scaling is not the ultimate and final solution to all the problems in Warframe, but it could, and should be implemented first. You can always have it now, since it's relatively easy to add to the game. The concept will still be good if later on DE decide to really tackle the whole scaling issue.

 

[(PSN)chris1pat8twins]

Basically what was done in Monster Hunter World? After completing the main part of the story an advanced version was unlocked to where all the monsters including the weak ones where harder and on the same level. 

In this case, Vor would be as strong as every other boss. Maybe they even drop new items or rarer items too. It would definitely make me want to redo the entire star chart if there was a more advanced version. 

Lotus: “Tenno, our enemies have decided to up their game. Due to your strength the grineer and corpus have developed more advanced technology. And the infested have mutated and evolved into uglier and more dangerous creatures. Be careful Tenno”

Ordis: “operator this... excites... worries me. I hope you... kill everything... come out okay”

[(PSN)teacup775]

10 hours ago, iHaku said:

you contradict yourself in 2 simple sentences, bravo.

if a bullet one shots an enemy, then that enemy apperently is too low of a level as his health and armor values are below your gearlevel. i doubth that you can 1shot 999 enemies with a "bullet", or really anything besides that dagger mod.

999 is obviously too high for what people want, but since that's too high, and level 50 is too low, that means that a happy medium does actually exist between the two, which is what people are asking for.

Think a bit more carefully.

LVL 100 enemies can detroyed as well. I solo sleep walk most sorties (minus interceptions most of the time because it would disturb my naptime. solo tridelon cap with chroma is when i want more of a challenge.. because lure management makes it interesting. kinda. solo delerlict to farm mods, but more “challenging”. eh). Anyone with mr16 and above can hold every last piece of gear I have.

So, most missions won’t offer any significant challenge even at lvl 100. Spies, sabotage and rescues not at all because gear and warframe selection. Exterms (yes, i’d just covert lethality them all. but i would give you this: the amount of simaris and focus standing gained would be outrageous), interception and defense minimally more. Otherwise people would adapt and bring armor strip from frost or oberon, etc. 100% armor strip and I think  even insanely high lvl enemies die.

For those liking endless, they could enjoy the quicker onset of crazy. But remember, most people do 4 waves and out because they are farming. And here harder enemies just because is does not add value. A real elite mob or mini event that has crazy to beat (or just annoying little bastards) but a huge reward might be different (like legendary loot midgets and other special enemies).

But most of the existing starchart? eh.

some of us have been playing video games for several decades and know higher level enemies do not necessarily scale to higher level fun-challenge. In destiny people hated the bullet sponge bosses because the fight was just tedious and boring. Super challenging..

In borderlands 2 op, Gearbox added health recovery and a few other things to tweak challenge. They added higher drop rates. Even then people would make a game of soloing raids at op8.

In reaper of souls, you get insane elite mobs (more, with more modifiers) and much higher drop rates.

But in warframe we’d be fighting the same mob mechanic with the same bugs and glitches for the same eh.

I’d rather see DE raise the bar on combat and add spice to the star chart and not do another ESO/arbritation bung.

 

Edited November 29, 2018 by (PS4)teacup775

[iHaku]

27 minutes ago, (PS4)teacup775 said:

Think a bit more carefully.

LVL 100 enemies can detroyed as well. I solo sleep walk most sorties (minus interceptions most of the time because it would disturb my naptime. solo tridelon cap with chroma is when i want more of a challenge.. because lure management makes it interesting. kinda). Anyone with mr16 and above can hold every last piece of gear I have.

Most missions won’t offer any significant challenge even at lvl 100. Spies, sabotage and rescues not at all because gear and warframe selection. Exterms (yes, i’d just covert lethality them all. but i would give you this: the amount of simaris and focus standing gained would be outrageous), interception and defense minimally more. people would adapt and bring armor strip from frost or oberon, etc.

For those liking endless, they could enjoy the quicker onset of crazy. But remember, most people do 4 waves and out because they are farming. And here harder enemies just because is does not add value. A real elite mob or mini event that has crazy to beat (or just annoying little bastards) but a huge reward might be different (like legendary loot midgets and other special enemies).

But most of the existing starchart? eh.

some of us have been playing video games for several decades and know higher level enemies do not necessarily scale to higher level fun (challenge). In destiny people hated the bullet sponge bosses because the fight was just tedious and boring.

In borderlands 2 op, Gearbox added health recovery and a few other things to tweak challenge. They added higher drop rates. Even then people would make a game of soloing raids at op8.

But in warframe we’d be fighting the same mob mechanic with the same bugs and glitches for the same eh.

I’d rather see DE raise the bar on combat and add spice to the star chart and not do another ESO/arbritation bung.

 

i probably have a lot of spelling errors in this post. it's kinda late here and im about to go to bed so sorry for that.

Borderlands 2 OP was notoriously looked down on and a gearbox designer himself spoke out about how he didnt actually want to implement OP levels because it was an unfinished bad idea, but was forced to do so anyway. Cant comment on destiny since im not interested in this game, but i have a couple thousand hours in each borderlands title. That being sad, OP does become a lot more fun and enjoyable once you play with UCP. Also yeah, raidbosses, but thats because gearbox wants people who are absolute garbage at the game be able to get raidboss loot on their own aswell. BL2 is extreamly poorly balanced.

the majority of your post is talking about level 100 enemies, while i was not. Instead i was talking about finding the "happy medium" or the sweet spot of level. OP himself even admitted that he whould set it way higher because level 100 is in his mind too low. personally i'd be more in the 150-200 range, which is where the damage type system starts to matter for the better dps types/weapons, especially in pubs when you get a team with "steel charge" auras on frames that dont use melee weapons a whole lot.

i think an even better solution whould be to have all missions start at level 100, and then be able to set extra levels in increments of 50 that award loot boosters (like the ones in defence for higher waves)

"But remember, most people do 4 waves and out because they are farming"

also, remember "most" people have trashgear. "most" people that do serious endgame farming do 8, 12 or even 16 and more rotations to skip loading screens and be more efficient, because level 80-100 enemies dont necesserily put up more of a fight anyway (as you correctly stated yourself) so it's not worth adding 1-2 more loading transitions (especially in survival where killspeed is barely relevant as long as you get enough oxigen). this is even more prevalent in excavation and fissures in general. So saying "most people do 4 waves" is akin to saying "most people quit the game before even leaving earth" which, while it's certainly true, doesnt tell the whole story, does it?

"Spies, sabotage and rescues not at all because gear and warframe selection."

i agree, and i talked about this in another topic. for spies one way whould be to give all enemies within a vault the invisible unit detection of the kavat handlers (that they supposedly have according to the wikipedia. i never noticed that myself, but thats apperently how it is). or nerv invisibility in general. For sabotage, always have the "defend the reactor stage" or other ways. DE is a fairly creative company and im sure they'd be able to come up with a solution for those few missions. this can not be the roadblock for higher level content, if so i'd seriously lose all faith in them as a dev.

Edited November 29, 2018 by iHaku

[(PSN)Jedi_Arts_]

48 minutes ago, (PS4)teacup775 said:

LVL 100 enemies can detroyed as well.

Yes level 100 isn't THAT difficult. But that's kind of the point here. We're looking for a good Medium. As I've mentioned a couple of times, I'm being conservative by recommending that as the benchmark level here. Starchart enemies are completely inconsequential. But at level 100, a pro at the game can still cheese it, but at least it requires some attention. We just don't want to sneeze in the direction of level 40 groups, killing them all and making it feel like we're just wasting time farming. Personally, I have fun at level 100 because I know that I'm getting some decent use out of my gear. Most enemies don't just die instantly unless you're really going overkill with the loadout. Yet, they're not bullet sponges either, like the ones you wanted to avoid in the Destiny comparison. It's kind of a decent balance when you think about it. It would be simple to implement. Minimal drama.

 

48 minutes ago, (PS4)teacup775 said:

For those liking endless, they could enjoy the quicker onset of crazy.

This is the secondary intent behind the idea for people who really do want a crazy challenge. Which includes me on some, but not all occasions.

 

48 minutes ago, (PS4)teacup775 said:

higher level enemies do not necessarily scale to higher level fun (challenge).

I’d rather see DE raise the bar on combat and add spice to the star chart and not do another ESO/arbritation bung.

 

It's true that I'm not looking for bullet sponge enemies to be the starting point. Higher level doesn't necessarily equal fun, but level 100 is a good start. I think the best solution is actually a combination of our ideas. Optionally raise the bar on enemy level to a nice Mid-Tier level, and then spice up the combat as well. But the combat mechanics are more of a long term goal. And if those mechanics went into the game without an adjustment to enemy level, then AoE effects that ignore the need for combat skills would just become more useful for farming. I think we need to stop everything from being one-shot before thinking about making the enemies more interesting. But I do agree that making enemies more interesting is also a good idea.

Edited November 29, 2018 by (PS4)Jedi_Arts_

[(PSN)teacup775]

5 hours ago, (PS4)Jedi_Arts_ said:

But at level 100, a pro at the game can still cheese it, but at least it requires some attention. We just don't want to sneeze in the direction of level 40 groups

I do kuva floods and sorties solo all the time. I don’t much may attention, but look at the minimap. lvl 100 is cheesable.

I’m afraid the combat mechanics (ie what happens in missions) is in dire need of an upgrade. The star chart is stale. We’ve got spies (cheese “stealth” that isnt because back doors), exterms, captures, rescue, sabo, and “endless” which kill fast enough or defend something. In all we’ve dumb ass hoards.

It’s the grineer! yeh so they’ll suprise me with what, a frontal assault?

5 hours ago, iHaku said:

the majority of your post is talking about level 100 enemies, while i was not. Instead i was talking about finding the "happy medium" or the sweet spot of level

I only listed 100 lvl to point out lvl 100 barely requires more attention than 50. For most missions lvl is entirely irrelevant. When it does matter, a frame that strips armor (oberon, ash, frost) or ccs like crazy (nidus) can keep entire mobs tied up endlessly.

Most people have prime gear, but it is likely they have weak builds. Same with BL2. People sporting legendary blah blah but bad combo, wrong skills and wrong gear for the toon.

BL2 op kept me busy for months, bootstrapping on sal, soloing digi peak, farming gear and bringing up every other toon. And its good enough (even if gearbox squeezed a quart into a pint with mad weapon swapping). People still ask for power leveling to op8.. 

For farming relics, huge rotations are irrelevant. Farming is about efficiency. Solo 3 syndicates. gather stars and medallions. Earn 6 to 9 relics a day in hour or so including loading/extraction. no hassle. no worries. fast loads. no endo or mod spam either.

Nerfing stealth and the rest is a bit rediculous. Spies have back doors, as do rescues. enemies are mostly irrelevant.

Ultimately the hoard mechanic is dull. Are you going to farm Earth for grineer caches or spy rewards for “end game”?

Try solo farming the derelict with all 4 keys on. 50 health and shields and nerfed damage is a fair test.

 

[(PSN)Jedi_Arts_]

8 hours ago, (PS4)teacup775 said:

I don’t much may attention, but look at the minimap. lvl 100 is cheesable.

I only listed 100 lvl to point out lvl 100 barely requires more attention than 50. For most missions lvl is entirely irrelevant.

I don't really know what else to tell you if you think enemy level holds almost no significance. All I can really say is that it matters to a lot of us. Almost everywhere you go in the game, people are going to expect any essence of an endgame to be at least 3 digits, and absolutely nothing below. There isn't a massive economy of Riven trading for anything less. There aren't recent build videos geared toward anything less. The veteran player base is way past that, even with the prospect of fancy new mechanics. You may find level 100 cheeseable, but keeping the enemy level at the Status Quo will be significantly more cheeseable. That's kind of a deal breaker. I'd wager that there were a significant amount of people who found out the the highest Bounty in Fortuna was level 40-60, and lost interest right there.

An Elite Mode would catch the interest of the Veteran player base. People who are interested will use it. Those who are not interested can decline. The potential upside is that you please the majority of Veterans in the game. The downside is that some people will be upset that other people are having fun, maybe I guess? We wouldn't need to keep having the enemy level discussion after that. Otherwise, it will continue to resurface. Also I've already acknowledged that you have a good idea. Is my idea really so insignificant? Even though there are a considerable amount of people who want it as well?

[(PSN)teacup775]

24 minutes ago, (PS4)Jedi_Arts_ said:

An Elite Mode would catch the interest of the Veteran player base. People who are interested will use it. Those who are not interested can decline. The potential upside is that you please the majority of Veterans in the game. The downside is that some people will be upset that other people are having fun, maybe I guess? We wouldn't need to keep having the enemy level discussion after that. Otherwise, it will continue to resurface. Also I've already acknowledged that you have a good idea. Is my idea really so insignificant? Even though there are a considerable amount of people who want it as well?

My main point is higher level per se is not going to make the game more fun (because killing hoards only is monotonous), just require a few more bullets for most missions, but in most cases nothing significant. Most star chart maps offer nothing with higher level (see sorties) to farm and most missions are without any emotional flavor. Does any one really farm a node because they love the location? There’s no story element, nothing to nodes. Contrast this with BL where every map has a memories associated with it. Even ROS locations have some emotional cement to them. Every planet is a unremarkable series of the same missions for irrelevant world reasons to fight bosses of no emotional import.

99% of all content minus a very few bosses (tyl, kela or hyena pack) are very entertaining to kill. I mention Kela as she’s one boss with a strong personality although her scripting is tied to a specific arena (her rocket spamming jumping hieny might be a hand full open word.. a manic on crack).

To their credit, DE put hyena packs in open orb v., but nerfed them it seems. They seem to at least have tried out the concept of a loot midget miniboss but did some crazy thing of making it a streamer specific spawn markerting ploy rather than for player enjoyment.

I’ve suggested that DE put keys or something akin to it in arbiters. Arbitrations is a gear check. You need to survive them enough to get access.

Spend the key in some way to beef up the enemy level (matchmaking pesents a challenge here but maybe people could just use recruiting) and add several challenges to any mission type. Of you kill the mini boss, they loot splode. These might act like beacons to add loot midgets or other mini bosses in game who “go after you” for some reason other than faction related, or you hunt them. Maybe they want your kavat or sentinel for the illegal pet trade, or your syandana. Players will certainly relish some sweet swag. And my god, add some relevant storyline tie in to the new war. Build some in mission in game anticipation.

(note: Arbitrations fly in the face of the lore that Arbiters want tenno to rise above mere war machines, but consistency isn’t much of a gaming strong point. Rise above mortality? Eh, arbiters now want tenno to be more human. And DE now made arbiters simaris lite).

[DreisterDino]

It would be nice if this is gonna happen.

Or at any other place in the game, like Fortuna bountys, just an option to chose your difficulty.

Suggested this in the Feedback section there after the nerfs:

Spoiler

 

 

[JalakBali]

Nah. This is not going to solve anything. The problem with trying to create "extra difficulty" with Warframe is that certain combinations of WFs and weapons will destroy anything that is considered "hard". There is no way to stop this considering the expansive possibilities of combo-ing powers between warframes, other than giving enemies unfair invincibility.

 

If you wanted to create challenge, it should be some form of crippling your overall power (in abilities and weapons). It is much more challenging to do a regular mission in newbie gear than fighting level 1,000 in tricked out gear. So you want an extra game mode? Then put away your easy mode toys. Maybe a challenge mode, say, call it Handicapped mode, should be about limiting the mods and powers you can use. Maybe it could a mode where if activated, a lot of mods are locked down, and some weapons or frame powers got debuffs. LIke an alternate stat system ala Conclave.

 

The benefit if a system like is in place is that high ranked players up for a challenge can still play with newbies and lower rank players. Warframe is an entirely different experience when you have to take your time killing enemies instead of wiping the whole map every 1.5 seconds. 

Try doing a regular mission with no mods. Or only mods with rank 0. It's very different.

[(PSN)Jedi_Arts_]

1 hour ago, JalakBali said:

Nah. This is not going to solve anything.

It is a significant change to the day-to-day of the game. I feel like people are starting to misunderstand what I meant when I said "challenge" in the first post. At a baseline, I just don't want the majority of enemies we encounter to die in one shot anymore (or relatively close to one shot depending on fire rate and such, you know what I mean). Preventing that solves a LOT actually. So it's "challenging" (I suppose) just because it's not a complete joke comparatively to what we have right now.

The real element of challenge is from starting the base level higher so you can get to the really tough enemies without an unreasonable wait. And yes, I know the right combination of frames can do "anything." But how many people are going to do that? I'd prefer the spontaneity. I'd rather pick whatever frame I feel like playing that day, jumping into a Void Fissure on Public Matchmaking, and stay until it actually does get difficult for the random squad comp that I encountered. Meanwhile I got a bunch of prime gear to use for Baro, Platinum Trading, or whatever. And that's just one use for an Elite Mode. That sounds like fun to me, and isn't the fun what it's actually about here? I'd urge you not to shrug off the idea just because there are squad comps available that could trivialize any enemy level. Besides, we're not looking for bullet sponges here. We just want a nice chill Medium, at base. And the ability to go for the endless scaling when we're feeling a little crazy.

1 hour ago, JalakBali said:

it should be some form of crippling your overall power (in abilities and weapons).

The point is I want to use all that great stuff. Why did I just go farm these great frames, weapons, and mods then? There are so many cool, creative things in the game considering the Gear and the Modding. It's a waste not to use them in combination.

 

1 hour ago, JalakBali said:

Then put away your easy mode toys. Maybe a challenge mode, say, call it Handicapped mode, should be about limiting the mods and powers you can use.

Alright now that I've already said all that, I'm not opposed to this idea at all. As long as we have the option to scale up the content level as well. I have to appreciate that you didn't recommend completely nerfing the game back to newbie state, because I've heard that idea before as well. But I see no reason why a Handicap Mode and Elite Level Mode can't coexist (But I'm not talking about both turned on at the same time though of course).

The main thing is just to prevent the day-to-day missions that we do so often get new items and resources from feeling completely trivial, while using our gear.

Edited November 30, 2018 by (PS4)Jedi_Arts_

[JalakBali]

3 hours ago, (PS4)Jedi_Arts_ said:

The point is I want to use all that great stuff. Why did I just go farm these great frames, weapons, and mods then? There are so many cool, creative things in the game considering the Gear and the Modding. It's a waste not to use them in combination.

In order to make something a challenge, murderizer weapons and killframes are not supposed to be effective, right? If Saryn could wipe the whole map in 1.8 seconds, it's still not a challenge if she could do it in 3.4 seconds. So in order to make it challenge, her ability would have been neutered, mostly by applying a ton of resistance for the enemies or making them out right immune. So even if you have all your rare mods and expensive stuff, they would still get neutered up to the point of near uselessness. It would be the same as if you don't have the fancy mods at all, with the difference, with my idea, that new players would have no chance in this mode, thus splitting the player base.