Considering Mesa prime is most likely the next prime, let's talk about changes to her.

[Birdframe_Prime]

33 minutes ago, EinheriarJudith said:

there is also the option to limit it to energy per kill. exalted modes are just another weapon. energy drain on just having that weapon out is bad which is why artemis bow is good in that regard.

 Edit: im still waiting for them to lift the limitation of power usage while using peacemaker. mesa is the only exalted mode frame that has this limitation.

Peacemaker's drain is all because of the exact same reason as the other Ability weapons, except Artemis Bow. That ability is literally the only exception, and the only reason it's an exception is because Ivara also has Prowl and Navigator, both of which are consistent drains, and having a frame with three drains on it would be ridiculous.

I can get behind the option to recast some abilities while it's active, but the drain and the inability to cast were both put in deliberately to limit the use of Peacemaker over long periods.

Switching Peacemaker to a non-drain will simply bring in the exploits that used to be in place with Greedy Pull, but this time with the full access to Zenurik, Energy Restores, Harrow and Trinity.

[EinheriarJudith]

1 hour ago, Thaylien said:

Peacemaker's drain is all because of the exact same reason as the other Ability weapons, except Artemis Bow. That ability is literally the only exception, and the only reason it's an exception is because Ivara also has Prowl and Navigator, both of which are consistent drains, and having a frame with three drains on it would be ridiculous.

I can get behind the option to recast some abilities while it's active, but the drain and the inability to cast were both put in deliberately to limit the use of Peacemaker over long periods.

Switching Peacemaker to a non-drain will simply bring in the exploits that used to be in place with Greedy Pull, but this time with the full access to Zenurik, Energy Restores, Harrow and Trinity.

i disagree. for one i didnt say switch it to non drain. artemis bow is still a channeled ability, it just doesn't drain with equiping, it also doesn't enable energy regen by means of energy vampire etc.

having a frame with 2 drains is already ridiculous. look at equinox at the very least pacify and provoke dont drain unless there are enemies within its radius or players use powers draining while a skill is active work for some skills, but id rather they move away from it entirely on exalted modes. there is no good reason to drain energy for equipping a weapon.

artemis bow drains per shot and guess what? people dont stay in it. the exalted modes can drain on per shot or per kill and not promote staying in them because they are channeled.

[(PSN)big_eviljak]

No changes. Shes perfect. Anything changes she'll get the nerf hammer. Leave her alone.

[EinheriarJudith]

25 minutes ago, (PS4)big_eviljak said:

No changes. Shes perfect. Anything changes she'll get the nerf hammer. Leave her alone.

shes hardly perfect. press 4 to turn on aimbot, press 2 for melee defense press 3 for range defense. press 1 for lols.

[(XBOX)YoungGunn82]

1 hour ago, EinheriarJudith said:

press 1 for lols.

Agree with this. 

1 hour ago, EinheriarJudith said:

shes hardly perfect. press 4 to turn on aimbot, press 2 for melee defense press 3 for range defense.

That's not really how they work. There is a little more to it  than that....

 

1 hour ago, (PS4)big_eviljak said:

No changes. Shes perfect. 

Just her 1. Aaand done. 

Edited November 20, 2018 by (XB1)RDeschain82

[(PSN)big_eviljak]

1 hour ago, EinheriarJudith said:

shes hardly perfect. press 4 to turn on aimbot, press 2 for melee defense press 3 for range defense. press 1 for lols.

She has the best kit in the game. Her 1 is mediocre but everything else is so good, any changes could break her.

[Xaxma]

Her 4 needs to be removed or entirely resigned. An aimbot that can instantly clear level 200 enemies in 0.2 seconds with a DPS in the millions is not balanced or fun.

She's the absolute most boring frame to play with  near complete invulnerability to boot. She's "baby's first warframe" with the utter lack of kit intricacy. She's just a stat check warframe that never loses. 

For all intents and purposes, she's the perfectly broken frame and that's what's wrong. 

Her 4 just needs to be the exalted weapons used in the same vein as Ivara and Titania. It'd be cooler and fun that way than using God powers. Her kit just feels like an early alpha debug for admins to use retroactively. 

Edited November 20, 2018 by Xaxma

[(XBOX)YoungGunn82]

1 hour ago, Xaxma said:

Her 4 needs to be removed or entirely resigned. An aimbot that can instantly clear level 200 enemies in 0.2 seconds with a DPS in the millions is not balanced or fun.

She's the absolute most boring frame to play with  near complete invulnerability to boot. She's "baby's first warframe" with the utter lack of kit intricacy. She's just a stat check warframe that never loses. 

For all intents and purposes, she's the perfectly broken frame and that's what's wrong. 

Her 4 just needs to be the exalted weapons used in the same vein as Ivara and Titania. It'd be cooler and fun that way than using God powers. Her kit just feels like an early alpha debug for admins to use retroactively. 

Edited November 20, 2018 by (XB1)RDeschain82

[EinheriarJudith]

3 hours ago, (XB1)RDeschain82 said:

Agree with this. 

That's not really how they work. There is a little more to it  than that....

 

Just her 1. Aaand done. 

actually there isnt. shatter shield gives her 95% DR to ranged through damage reversal, shooting gallery stuns melee units. sure it jams weapons but it would be pretty inconsistent to jam every enemies weapon when you want them shooting at you because of shattershield which is why its range is low (best used as melee defense).

[Birdframe_Prime]

15 hours ago, EinheriarJudith said:

i disagree. for one i didnt say switch it to non drain. artemis bow is still a channeled ability, it just doesn't drain with equiping, it also doesn't enable energy regen by means of energy vampire etc.

EJ, yes it does... Desecrate, and Artemis Bow are literally the only two Drain abilities in game that drain energy by an external count that is not 'per second', because they're the only ones able to. And both of them do allow regen.

Ivara, particularly, is designed to exploit this, because by using Invisibility Arrow instead of Prowl, you can fully regen your energy during missions without being detected, while still using Artemis Bow to keep killing. (Only downside is that, unlike Prowl, enemies can hear you and will run up to your location and maybe even start blind-firing).

16 hours ago, EinheriarJudith said:

id rather they move away from it entirely on exalted modes

In their current form, yeah, I agree, but nobody has come up with a better form for them yet that doesn't break the power balance that DE will agree with. Until we have something other than 'per second' as a way to cost these abilities, one that doesn't either absurdly increase the energy for use or simply turn the ability weapons into something that can be discounted as an 'ability' and instead be classed as a 'passive'.

16 hours ago, EinheriarJudith said:

people dont stay in it. the exalted modes can drain on per shot or per kill and not promote staying in them because they are channeled.

Personal experience here, but yeah, they do. When the Ability Weapon rework came around, for example, I saved Ivara for last because, while the frame was fully-forma'd, that just meant I could then forma and rank up the Bow by stealth-multiplier Exterminates, staying in the ability the entire mission and getting Affinity purely for it at the usual increased value of Stealth farming.

I'll say it a little more clearly, Artemis Bow is the exception, not the example of how we can balance Ability Weapons around something else. Mesa's Peacemaker is, quite by definition of being hitscan and by its scaling up over use in both fire rate and damage, more powerful as an ability and that's why it has what is the current case of power capping by giving it a full Drain of 15 on top of the limitations of fixed location, fixed range and the ever-decreasing aiming reticule.

[EinheriarJudith]

1 hour ago, Thaylien said:

EJ, yes it does... Desecrate, and Artemis Bow are literally the only two Drain abilities in game that drain energy by an external count that is not 'per second', because they're the only ones able to. And both of them do allow regen.

Ivara, particularly, is designed to exploit this, because by using Invisibility Arrow instead of Prowl, you can fully regen your energy during missions without being detected, while still using Artemis Bow to keep killing. (Only downside is that, unlike Prowl, enemies can hear you and will run up to your location and maybe even start blind-firing).

Ivara can not replenish energy using Trinity's Energy Vampire and Team Energy Restores while Artemis Bow is active; however, Energy Siphon, Energy Orbs,  Arcane Energize, Orokin Void Death Orb energy restores, and Zenurik's Energizing Dash can still replenish energy even while the ability is active.

in other words exactly how other channeled skills operate when it concerns energy regen.

mesa if any of the exalted mode frames need to be brought inline with the others.

Edited November 21, 2018 by EinheriarJudith

[Birdframe_Prime]

28 minutes ago, EinheriarJudith said:

in other words exactly how other channeled skills operate when it concerns energy regen.

No, even if Plates and Trin don't work, other Drains do not allow Zenurik, Energy Siphon or anything labelled 'regen'. Every other Drain ability can only get energy from Orbs (including Arcane Energise) and the Rage mechanic.

Artemis Bow is an exception.

[EinheriarJudith]

4 minutes ago, Thaylien said:

No, even if Plates and Trin don't work, other Drains do not allow Zenurik, Energy Siphon or anything labelled 'regen'. Every other Drain ability can only get energy from Orbs (including Arcane Energise) and the Rage mechanic.

Artemis Bow is an exception.

it is still not something that will unbalance it. and even if it does they can change it so that it doesnt.

unless you can drop an actual idea of what they could do im gonna go with change drain to either per shot or per kill. energy draining while weapon is equip is just bad.

[GeoffFromAccounting]

56 minutes ago, EinheriarJudith said:

it is still not something that will unbalance it. and even if it does they can change it so that it doesnt.

unless you can drop an actual idea of what they could do im gonna go with change drain to either per shot or per kill. energy draining while weapon is equip is just bad.

Have you considered maybe just having it drain while firing? It'll function pretty much exactly as it does now, but won't drain energy just by being passively used (which seems to be your main gripe with it). It may require ramping up the drain cost to compensate for using less energy overall, as those who camp certain exalted modes are going to end up being able to use it for longer periods. However if your main goal is to simply eliminate energy cost just by having the ability passively active, then I believe just activating the drain while the ability is actively being used is probably the simplest and most elegant way to go about it without accidentally increasing energy costs to extreme amounts for certain abilities.

Edited November 21, 2018 by GeoffFromAccounting

[EinheriarJudith]

1 minute ago, GeoffFromAccounting said:

Have you considered maybe just having it drain while firing? It'll function pretty much exactly as it does now, but won't drain energy just by being passively used (which seems to be your main gripe with it). It may require ramping up the drain cost to compensate for using less energy overall, as those who camp certain exalted modes are going to end up being able to use it for longer periods. However if your main goal is to simply eliminate energy cost just by having the ability passively active, then I believe just activating the drain while the ability is actively being used is probably the simplest and most elegant way to go about it without accidentally increasing energy costs to extreme amounts for certain abilities.

drain while firing is also a good one. the problem with peacemaker is, its an exalted mode with aimbot that disables the use of abilities and movement. they should either revert it back to weapon link, or make it a proper exalted mode that allows full movement and usage of powers without the aimbot and reticle. after all it is just another dual pistol.

[Birdframe_Prime]

59 minutes ago, EinheriarJudith said:

it is still not something that will unbalance it. and even if it does they can change it so that it doesnt.

unless you can drop an actual idea of what they could do im gonna go with change drain to either per shot or per kill. energy draining while weapon is equip is just bad.

I don't think Peacemaker needs any change at all, personally. I filled in a full reply on what I think they could do earlier. Changing her 1 to a small Duration rather than a Single Shot, meaning that the buff is actually a buff and can be balanced out by the same DPS balancing that DE does for their weapons already.

It would even make the Augment relevant because adding 100% status could be that thing that tips the balance over on some Shotguns or our automatic Crossbows, or since we have plenty of secondary Projectile based weapons (and since the Augment's buff to projectile weapons is flat, not additive the way mods are) turn those into Status monsters for a few seconds when we need to melt faces off.

But I do think that Geoff as a good plan, which is drain while firing and turn off the passive drain. For balance it would still interrupt regen while active, but the ability would become far more efficient to keep active once you have achieved the high damage and rate of fire boost.

[GeoffFromAccounting]

33 minutes ago, EinheriarJudith said:

drain while firing is also a good one. the problem with peacemaker is, its an exalted mode with aimbot that disables the use of abilities and movement. they should either revert it back to weapon link, or make it a proper exalted mode that allows full movement and usage of powers without the aimbot and reticle. after all it is just another dual pistol.

But then what you're left with is effectively Dex Pixia but without the thing that makes Dex Pixia unique (which is the archwing mode) and would then require a whole rework to give it something more unique than just a pair of pistols that cost energy. There's a reason why most gunslingers I've seen in interactive medium have an autoaim ability, and that's because it's the best way (in my opinion) to convey just how superhuman their gunslinging abilities are; being able to aim, fire, and hit a target all within a second with minimal effort. Nisha from Borderlands 2 and Mcree from Overwatch are the examples of this that spring to my mind immediately.

The only examples I know of where this isn't the case is in WildStar with the Spellslinger (which is an MMO, so aiming is a moot point to begin with even with the combat system it had) and Destiny with the Gunslinger subclass for the Hunter (which instead gave a really souped up hand cannon as an ultimate ability, while having passives that reward good aim with headshots).

Edited November 21, 2018 by GeoffFromAccounting

[EinheriarJudith]

47 minutes ago, GeoffFromAccounting said:

But then what you're left with is effectively Dex Pixia but without the thing that makes Dex Pixia unique (which is the archwing mode) and would then require a whole rework to give it something more unique than just a pair of pistols that cost energy. There's a reason why most gunslingers I've seen in interactive medium have an autoaim ability, and that's because it's the best way (in my opinion) to convey just how superhuman their gunslinging abilities are; being able to aim, fire, and hit a target all within a second with minimal effort. Nisha from Borderlands 2 and Mcree from Overwatch are the examples of this that spring to my mind immediately.

The only examples I know of where this isn't the case is in WildStar with the Spellslinger (which is an MMO, so aiming is a moot point to begin with even with the combat system it had) and Destiny with the Gunslinger subclass for the Hunter (which instead gave a really souped up hand cannon as an ultimate ability, while having passives that reward good aim with headshots).

dex pixia is just a pare of archwing pistols no different than dual decurion. archwing mode for her is not unique because archwings existed with said weapon before her. its the same for excaliber. all exalted blade is, is a sword with fluctus blades. its recycled.

actually the only unique exalted mode is ivara's there was no bow that could shoot arrows in that manner until artemis bow, cernos prime which came after.

Edited November 21, 2018 by EinheriarJudith

[Kotsender_Quasimir]

i really like harrow's and garuda's build-up mechanics, encouraging varied, effort based gameplay with appropriate pay-off.

i like Mesa theme wise but agree she's pretty onesided (also shatter shield being a somewhat cast-and-forget OP defense for a DPS frame).

i tried to think of a solution in the vein of the aforementioned for ballistic battery:

i know it's an old thread but i still like the idea, stil relevant especially since dual toxocyst synergy is pretty much gone now.

[(XBOX)YoungGunn82]

17 hours ago, EinheriarJudith said:

shatter shield gives her 95% DR to ranged through damage 

For only projectiles. Not Status or Melee. 

17 hours ago, EinheriarJudith said:

shooting gallery stuns melee units. sure it jams weapons but it would be pretty inconsistent to jam every enemies weapon when you want them shooting at you because of shattershield which is why its range is low (best used as melee defense).

Shooting gallery not only buffs your weapons as well as your team's but it also has a lasso effect that does jam weapons and stuns melee enemies but only lassos 3 enemies every 1.5 seconds. 

PM has the second highest drain in the game. It also relies on LoS,  locks Mesa in place and requires you to move your reticle. 

1 hour ago, EinheriarJudith said:

they should either revert it back to weapon link, or make it a proper exalted mode that allows full movement and usage of powers without the aimbot and reticle. after all it is just another dual pistol.

Do you have any idea how much work would be involved here, and/or how much work would be wasted by making this change, not to mention how crazy OP a 100% mobile PM would be. Especially if you consider synergies with other frames. 

Mesa is in a good spot objectively, all her abilities are balanced and used with the exception of her 1. (Personally I use her 1 all the time, especially during arbitration) and she's vary versitile. 

Mesa doesn't need anything changed with the exception of her 1. And even that only needs a small tweak.  

Edited November 21, 2018 by (XB1)RDeschain82