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Ash Rework Exalted Weapon?


Grimmstyler
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Should Ash get Exalted Ninja Stars?

I've been playing Ash and it seems other frames nuke abilities just out perform Blade Storm targeting..

I found Ash is highly reliable on abilities to be effective.. like you need to Smoke to get energy return on [Fatal Teleport] and as your Fatal teleporting your view is changed to target enemies for Bladestorm.. Then [Energy Siphon] + [Coaction  Drift] + Zenurik Energizing Dash is not fast enough to keep up, unless you [Fatal Teleport] without Smoke and use [Hunter Adrenaline].

I think Exalted Ninja Stars with Ash's Passive would be more effective than targeting then releasing waiting for animation then reactivating Bladestorm. I find Ash's 1 to be very effective if line of sight is used

Ha, maybe Exalted Stars could also use [Stockpile Blight]

Edited by Grimmstyler
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On 2018-11-17 at 7:52 PM, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

No, not every frame needs a damn exalted weapon.

Quoting this for emphasis. 

On 2018-11-17 at 6:41 PM, Grimmstyler said:

[Energy Siphon] + [Coaction  Drift] + Zenurik Energizing Dash

Skip all that and just use Rage.

I've put over 400 hours of gameplay into Ash/Prime and an "exalted" anything wouldn't be an improvement (this is true for 95% of frames).

Edited by (PS4)Riko_113
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1 minute ago, (PS4)Riko_113 said:

I've put about 714 hours of gameplay into Ash/Prime and an "exalted" anything wouldn't be an improvement (this is true for 95% of frames).

Only reason i would want to see Exalted Ninja Stars is because Ash's 1 seems to be his most effective ability.. Even better in line of sight.

If there was an Exalted Weapon that did the same as Shuriken Ash would be more effective.

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Grimm, you've really been on a roll of thread ideas this evening.... and I'm a little impressed with the amount of responses that are just people really not agreeing with you.

But in all serious discussion, no. Many, many, and even more people have raised this idea, a whole bunch of us got together a while back and tried to hack out a way that this would actually work. What a fully-reasoned and surprisingly-for-this-forum polite debate actually turned up was that this would genuinely be a nerf to how he works.

The thing is that Ash deals plenty of damage with his 4, what he needs is a way to have better targeting that isn't just the boring 'spin around and hope you mark everything' style that Mesa's 4 has.

A good idea that people had was the idea of an expanding ring, similar to the wave effects we have for other frames, but always centred on Ash, so that you press 4 to begin its expansion, it then automatically targets anything within its radius for the Clone Strikes when you press 4 again, and it costs energy over time as it grows instead of per-target. The cost reduction that his Smoke Screen causes on the current version could simply work by increasing the rate at which the ring expands, effectively making any size ring you create half the cost it would be usually.

It would encourage Ash players to jump into the middle of groups, instead of trying to hang back and mark everything from a distance, and there would then be a sudden strike from clones in the affected area including one, just one, from Ash meaning that the actual damage portion of the ability only lasts as long as one animation (and doesn't drag on like it can currently).

Smart Ash players may even begin charging their 4 while invisible, then use Teleport to get into the middle of the group at the last second, and then unleash everything at once for an optimum stab-nuke.

Limitations on it would be that it would have a soft-cap on the range, where after a certain duration or range the ring starts expanding slower and slower for the same energy cost, meaning you couldn't nuke a full 50m radius without a very large investment in time and energy. The implication is that you could have, in the same time, nuked three separate groups of about 10m instead, killing more enemies for less energy.

The key difference between this and the previous nuke abilities that DE finds un-fun would be that it still requires the set-up time, it's still potential-only damage where the actual amount of damage you can deal out with any one cast is then entirely based on your ability to find or create concentrations of enemies dense enough to fit inside your range.

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7 minutes ago, Grimmstyler said:

Only reason i would want to see Exalted Ninja Stars is because Ash's 1 seems to be his most effective ability.. Even better in line of sight.

If there was an Exalted Weapon that did the same as Shuriken Ash would be more effective.

Effective in what regard? 

Ash's abilities are notorious for dealing true damage, which bypasses enemy defenses. Level 60+ where enemy armor gives them much greater damage resistance is where Ash is designed to shine. He tears through them like they are still level 5 long after most frames have trouble. Without the augment his shurikens become useful mostly for taking out cameras and killing weak enemies through walls. 

His 1 could actually stand to be more useful. His 4 just needs QoL to improve it. 

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4 minutes ago, Thaylien said:

Grimm, you've really been on a roll of thread ideas this evening.... and I'm a little impressed with the amount of responses that are just people really not agreeing with you.

But in all serious discussion, no. Many, many, and even more people have raised this idea, a whole bunch of us got together a while back and tried to hack out a way that this would actually work. What a fully-reasoned and surprisingly-for-this-forum polite debate actually turned up was that this would genuinely be a nerf to how he works.

The thing is that Ash deals plenty of damage with his 4, what he needs is a way to have better targeting that isn't just the boring 'spin around and hope you mark everything' style that Mesa's 4 has.

A good idea that people had was the idea of an expanding ring, similar to the wave effects we have for other frames, but always centred on Ash, so that you press 4 to begin its expansion, it then automatically targets anything within its radius for the Clone Strikes when you press 4 again, and it costs energy over time as it grows instead of per-target. The cost reduction that his Smoke Screen causes on the current version could simply work by increasing the rate at which the ring expands, effectively making any size ring you create half the cost it would be usually.

It would encourage Ash players to jump into the middle of groups, instead of trying to hang back and mark everything from a distance, and there would then be a sudden strike from clones in the affected area including one, just one, from Ash meaning that the actual damage portion of the ability only lasts as long as one animation (and doesn't drag on like it can currently).

Smart Ash players may even begin charging their 4 while invisible, then use Teleport to get into the middle of the group at the last second, and then unleash everything at once for an optimum stab-nuke.

Limitations on it would be that it would have a soft-cap on the range, where after a certain duration or range the ring starts expanding slower and slower for the same energy cost, meaning you couldn't nuke a full 50m radius without a very large investment in time and energy. The implication is that you could have, in the same time, nuked three separate groups of about 10m instead, killing more enemies for less energy.

The key difference between this and the previous nuke abilities that DE finds un-fun would be that it still requires the set-up time, it's still potential-only damage where the actual amount of damage you can deal out with any one cast is then entirely based on your ability to find or create concentrations of enemies dense enough to fit inside your range.

I'm one that uses a  controller due to my background in console games, I'm comfortable with using a controller..

I don't care for Charge abilities because it takes my thumb off the movement stick. Hydroid is not bad for farming, but charging and moving is not possible. So you could see why your suggested change would not promote me to use Ash. Really I'd think id die easy if i jumped into a crowd of level 100 enemies and charged an ability of Smoke wasn't active (which i don't usually pay much attention to Smoke duration even with how short the duration is)

Shuriken feels good to me. Fatal Teleport isn't bad, but it kills the targeting for Bladestorm.

Fatal Teleport and charging Bladestorm for AOE with your suggested rework may work as long as i have the energy

So yea that actually sounds like it would be better than what Bladestorm is now

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17 minutes ago, (PS4)Riko_113 said:

Effective in what regard? 

Ash's abilities are notorious for dealing true damage, which bypasses enemy defenses. Level 60+ where enemy armor gives them much greater damage resistance is where Ash is designed to shine. He tears through them like they are still level 5 long after most frames have trouble. Without the augment his shurikens become useful mostly for taking out cameras and killing weak enemies through walls. 

His 1 could actually stand to be more useful. His 4 just needs QoL to improve it. 

Lol.. I use [Seeking Shuriken] so actually i forgot if the Shurikens actually "seek" without the Augment

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ash is one of those frames u only start to appreciate if u play vs high lvl enemies and thats totally fine. an exalted weapon doesnt define a good frame neccessarily and ash surely doesnt need one. his current kit is absolutely strong enough and doesnt need a change just for the sake of changing imo.

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31 minutes ago, Xydeth said:

ash is one of those frames u only start to appreciate if u play vs high lvl enemies and thats totally fine. an exalted weapon doesnt define a good frame neccessarily and ash surely doesnt need one. his current kit is absolutely strong enough and doesnt need a change just for the sake of changing imo.

That is true it is effective against high level. But that damn targeting for Bladestorm.. Yada Yada Yada yeah, it's the cost for it's strength.. But make him effective to use in low level too..

 

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vor 9 Stunden schrieb Grimmstyler:

That is true it is effective against high level. But that damn targeting for Bladestorm.. Yada Yada Yada yeah, it's the cost for it's strength.. But make him effective to use in low level too..

 

he is effective. worst case he has invis only and that in itself is already strong. u know, ppl value loki for his invis alone, radial disarm aside. the targeting is not too problematic imo but i guess thats taste. u cant balance around low lvl...i mean come on, u sneeze at a lv 25, it dies and is ragdolled 50m through the air...vs these enemies shuriken does enough dmg to kill and bladestorm can easily be used too even without a typical build for it specifically so...

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11 hours ago, Grimmstyler said:

But that damn targeting for Bladestorm.

Too often i see "(x) sucks, let's improve (y)!"

If Bladestorm targeting needs improvement (which many people agree with), why take the leap to say "let's focus on an exalted Shuriken instead because Bladestorm targeting sucks"?

This could've all been feedback to improve what you don't like about it...

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He's my most used and the damage per cost is probably better than just about any other ability. Having to target enemies is fine, but most people tend to agree it could use a larger targeting reticle and a better way to maximize the marks on your targets. 

Entirely changing direction to give him an exalted based on his Shuriken wouldn't improve him in any way. 

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1 hour ago, Thaylien said:

You've mis-read me, it's a charge over time, not a hold-to-charge. I hate those too and I'm on PC ^^ Toggle on to go, toggle off to release.

What about then?

I don't like the idea then.. The time lapse wouldn't seem as effective.

If the Range was consistent and a clone started at Teleporting the next closet Target from Ash, to the next target and back at duration end of Radius drop, it would be like the original ability but leave Ash open for additional DPS and not Nuke kill in 1 press. Some would argue it's not as efficient as Volt/Sayrn because of their stun ability in higher level.. But in some sense it would be, due to enemy kill rate. So enemies in radius could probably get a accuracy debuff? Meh.. It just seems like another Nuke frame, but at least it has time lapse between clone kills.

With the cost per Target it should be a cancel ability also..

Then even if a Defense Target was top priority in the Radius and the clone teleported to the Defensive target as oppose to the closest target from Ash that would be ++. But some would argue that wouldn't be similar as any other ability and there would be no lesson learned from abandoning the Defense Target.

So the reason i suggested Exalted Ninja Stars is because people argue that Ash is to strong as a Nuke with his passive.. 

[Seeking Shuriken] feels good on Ash.. It might be too strong as a 4th ability if the Ninja Stars "seeked", but would be much easier for targeting. Yeah people say, not another Exalted.. Which i agree, but, it would seem effective and interactable than just Nuke..

Then even would Exalted Ninja Stars be to strong because of Weapon Silence and Smoke? And having a charge meter to build on successful hits to secondary fire a Radial fast (infinite pumch thru in 40m Radius) barrage of Ninja Stars?

I actually like the idea of Exalted Weapons building a charge meter for a 360 Nuke and Exalted Melee having movement like [Hysterical Assualt] + Garudas 1 (35% enemy health results in finish). 

 

Edited by Grimmstyler
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28 minutes ago, Grimmstyler said:

I don't like the idea then.. The time lapse wouldn't seem as effective.

I think you're really, really not visualising this properly at all...

Think similar to this:

Spoiler

 

The idea being that it expands from you, is soft-capped by slowing down after a certain point, and the release of the ability damages everything within the radius at once with Ash Clones using the current animations to prevent having to re-programme the entire ability.

There would no longer be cost-per-target, it would be cost for the size of the expansion, meaning that if you had a concentrated group of five or six, you could tap and tap again very quickly to damage all of them in that small space, or you could let it charge over a larger area to unleash on a more spread out group with no limit to how many targets are within it. Base energy cost would then be really low, and the quick-release nature means that you would never have extended periods of running with the ability toggled on either.

Take what people currently find to be the most iconic thing about Ash's Balde Storm; the clone attack, but eliminate the stupid cost-per-mark and it's bloating problem by giving them the ability to cost as they have energy for, large or small.

With the range basically effecting the starting radius of the ability and the expansion being based on efficiency and whether you're Stealth'd or not.

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Absolute. Actually all abilities should get an individual modding layout. Get ride of these useless scaling and bandage mods and give them the same possibilities weapons have.

I don´t get why so many people are against more options though.

Edited by Arcira
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@Thaylien

I guess.. Really Bladestorm seems the same as Equinox to me.

If Ash had Exalted Ninja Stars ( a Silent Exalted Weapon) it would match his Stealth Theme and work well with his Passive. 

He would be great to use on Exterminate missiins for a chance at that Rare Axi Reward and unvieling a Riven mod Undetected

Edited by Grimmstyler
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Bladestorm is great, but it suffers from being too slow in how it's executed and finished. By the time your shadows are slicing and dicing your teammates already killed those enemies not to mention you need to target them 3 times to get those 3 marks on them. So my suggestion is simple: Just let it be one mark with the damage of the current 3 marks and let the shadows attack all marked enemies at once instead of a couple of shadows alternating all over the place. 

Also when melee 3.0 will release we don't know how it will affect bladestorm yet because as far as we know by now, the combo multiplier will no longer give a damage boost for regular attacks and bladestorm depends heavily on the combo multiplier at endgame levels for that damage so it might be a huge indirect nerf to Ash. Then there is the Bladestorm's augment mod and how that will affect melee 3.0 no idea, but a cool suggestion for that could be that when you activate "marking mode" for bladestorm you can now see enemies behind walls and mark them too. This fits the theme since you get this cool predator vision when you're marking enemies already as it is.

 

Just my 2 cents.

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5 hours ago, Thaylien said:

I think you're really, really not visualising this properly at all...

Think similar to this:

  Reveal hidden contents

 

The idea being that it expands from you, is soft-capped by slowing down after a certain point, and the release of the ability damages everything within the radius at once with Ash Clones using the current animations to prevent having to re-programme the entire ability.

There would no longer be cost-per-target, it would be cost for the size of the expansion, meaning that if you had a concentrated group of five or six, you could tap and tap again very quickly to damage all of them in that small space, or you could let it charge over a larger area to unleash on a more spread out group with no limit to how many targets are within it. Base energy cost would then be really low, and the quick-release nature means that you would never have extended periods of running with the ability toggled on either.

Take what people currently find to be the most iconic thing about Ash's Balde Storm; the clone attack, but eliminate the stupid cost-per-mark and it's bloating problem by giving them the ability to cost as they have energy for, large or small.

With the range basically effecting the starting radius of the ability and the expansion being based on efficiency and whether you're Stealth'd or not.

Unless I had a stroke i'm like 90% sure you hold down mirage when playing Nier to expand the bubble.  Unless you're using that to showcase what you want blade storm to look like visually.

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7 hours ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

Unless I had a stroke i'm like 90% sure you hold down mirage when playing Nier to expand the bubble.  Unless you're using that to showcase what you want blade storm to look like visually.

Visual only ^^ You're absolutely right about the Nier version, it's a hold, but the idea I was trying to get across to Grimm was how quickly you'd get the initial radius and how quickly you'd deal damage over it.

I mean, you can actually just Tap Mirage in Nier if you only have a target right next to you because it does have an initial radius too.

Edited by Thaylien
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2 hours ago, TheRealShade said:

What if Ash used a similar targeting mechanic to Garuda's 4? Maybe have it expand a little slower and in exhance it doesn't hinder movement.

Ash would be too much like Garuda to me.. Garuda is basically Ash, but the opposite of Ash's Passive. You actually have to finish the job with Garuda. And Garudas 4 just being a frontal attack does not work well in a defense mission, it should have been 360.

I'm one that doesn't care much for the charge for Range abilities.

I'm thinking the whole Marking, Nuke, Clone idea should just be abandoned because you have Garuda and Equinox as Slash Nuke. Ash is a Stealthy Ninja, but not that fun to use. unless your in the mood for some sneaky solo.

In some sense, in a team environment, Ash could just stand there invisible and do nothing but observe the performance of others DPS and pick up the slack by marking.. But that kind of AFK gameplay is not appreciated. Then even when invisible its taking the enemy spawns targeting that was meant for you and putting it on other teammates. Like Loki  i find thier Abilities can be quite trollable.. At least with Octavia teammates can Invis, but then a defense target is the risk.

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15 hours ago, TheRealShade said:

What if Ash used a similar targeting mechanic to Garuda's 4? Maybe have it expand a little slower and in exhance it doesn't hinder movement.

garuda's 4 has an aweful charge time. i can kill faster with blade storm then setting up her 4. charge abilities are the reason i stopped playing hydoid. they are very slow and and enemies build up while you cant do anything about it until you release the charge.

id remove the charge from garuda's 4, and make it the same size as mesa peacemaker reticle

for hydroid rather than having enemies flailing about and have a ridiculous charge time for maxium range on tentacle swarm, id make it stagger enemies instead when the tentacles swipe them, remove the charge and make it so the creature actually moves around in its target area.

charge time is pretty aweful mechanic in this game because it is slow where the game is very fast.

Edited by EinheriarJudith
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