Inconsistencies of Warframes

[SilentMobius]

Here's the thing.

We don't know, we only know what is so, everything else is undefined until DE define it, but there are plenty of possible explanations, and as long as there are possible explanations then IMHO there is no inconsistency.

Examples include.

• Alad V's experiments on a Gersemi Valkyr could have been at least partially an attempt to recreate the abilities of the Prime that he had limited information on, hence the similarity.
• Gersemi is a Warframe created by the Tenno based on Valkyr Prime, possibly with less luxurious material at their disposal, she could have been crafted to be optimized to that resource-light construction environment, Alad V was tearing Gersemi apart to work out how she ticked, and in doing so re-enabled disables prime subsystems resulting it partial prime material regrowth. The bonds are there to maintain interface with those systems.
• Just because Gersemi existed "before the experiments" doesn't mean that it was a Gersemi Warframe that Alad V found, sure it makes that statement clumsy but it doesn't make it false.

Fundamentally there is a simple explanation, DE want all primes to be based on the the stock Warframe regardless of lore to make it more familiar so it sells better, neither do they want any functional changes to abilities. So whatever the lore is, it needs to work around that.

I would love to see the Limbo Deluxe skin coming with a tale of a limbo Teleport-merging with a Sentient Fragment and rift walking Tenno into a sentient stronghold. Or the Orokin Stripping down a limbo and fusing it into a Sentient fragment corpse for similar reasons. The possibilities are endless and the Deluxe skins are really missing their place in Lore (save the Arboreal Deluxes that all appear to be "Silvana-designed" variants)

As far as Revenant goes? who know what state the game will be in by the time he sees a prime, pointless to speculate at the moment.

Edited November 19, 2018 by SilentMobius

[Kerberos-3]

4 hours ago, Zeclem said:

heres the deal. non prime warframes are made by the crappier tech of the tenno after the war. gersemi was that. the theme of rage and torture did not came after alad v, we have nothing in game telling us so. closest that we got is "experiments got her scarred" but that does not exactly mean she wasnt the angry cat lady she is now. 

Actually, the game outright tells us this, in her description. "Forged in the labs of the Zanuka Project, the original Valkyr was subjected to cruel experiments, leaving her scarred, angry and frighteningly adept at killing". This heavily implies that Valkyr's modification changed her powers, causing her to cease being what she once was and become the violent berserker frame we all know today.

[Kerberos-3]

2 hours ago, Firetempest said:

Over six years of building and changing the game and tweaking lore as they came up with new ideas.

There are inconsistencies and game reasoning. The Deluxe skins are non-canon and made just to look cool and candy-cane scythes.

Trying to piece it all together is possible with enough BS, just look at the multiple official zelda timeline charts created to appease some fans.

take the mst3k mantra.

“If you’re wondering how Valkyr screams without a mouth
And other science facts
Then repeat to yourself ‘It’s just a game,
I should really just relax.’”

All of them, except Gersemi.

[SilentMobius]

11 minutes ago, Kerberos-3 said:

Actually, the game outright tells us this, in her description. "Forged in the labs of the Zanuka Project, the original Valkyr was subjected to cruel experiments, leaving her scarred, angry and frighteningly adept at killing". This heavily implies that Valkyr's modification changed her powers, causing her to cease being what she once was and become the violent berserker frame we all know today.

"Forged in war, the soldier faces terrible experiences, leaving him scarred, angry and frighteningly adept at killing"

Is the soldier in this statement implied to have notably changed fundamental abilities? or just maybe a change in personality and the desire to use those abilities?

Edited November 19, 2018 by SilentMobius

[Kerberos-3]

Just now, SilentMobius said:

"Forged in war, the soldier faces terrible experiences, leaving him scarred, angry and frighteningly adept at killing"

Is the soldier in this statement implied to have notably changed fundamental abilities? or just maybe a change in personality?

Last four words are key. "Frighteningly adept at killing". How does one become frighteningly adept at killing, when one is already that way? Simple. Valkyr, as Gersemi, had little to no killing ability, then Alad's experiments gave her that power. In other words, Gersemi was not a combat frame, and due to Alad's actions, she became what she is today.

[SilentMobius]

Just now, Kerberos-3 said:

Last four words are key. "Frighteningly adept at killing". How does one become frighteningly adept at killing, when one is already that way? Simple. Valkyr, as Gersemi, had little to no killing ability, then Alad's experiments gave her that power. In other words, Gersemi was not a combat frame, and due to Alad's actions, she became what she is today.

I disagree, the soldier in my example could be a fine soldier, "adept at killing" but not focused on it. The statement only really implies what is observed after. 

Their ability with a rifle, knife, strategy, survival could be no different.

The other thing about is what Warframe abilities really are, are they something created from the personality of the donor for the Warframe or are they related but fundamentally designed, if they're designed then there is no reason to assume anything that isn't a redesign attempt would do anything to the powers.

[Kerberos-3]

Just now, SilentMobius said:

I disagree, the soldier in my example could be a fine soldier, "adept at killing" but not focused on it. The statement only really implies what is observed after. 

Their ability with a rifle, knife, strategy, survival could be no different.

The other thing about is what Warframe abilities really are, are they something created from the personality of the donor for the Warframe or are they related but fundamentally designed, if they're designed then there is no reason to assume anything that isn't a redesign attempt would do anything to the powers.

And was that not what Valkyr was subjected to by Alad? And attempt to redesign her into a drone that the Corpus could control, that pain from which drove her mad. After all, Valkyr's Ripline ability is very much a result of Alad's tampering, seeing as he went out of his way to install reels on her arms.

[Rekkou]

11 minutes ago, Kerberos-3 said:

Last four words are key. "Frighteningly adept at killing". How does one become frighteningly adept at killing, when one is already that way? Simple. Valkyr, as Gersemi, had little to no killing ability, then Alad's experiments gave her that power. In other words, Gersemi was not a combat frame, and due to Alad's actions, she became what she is today.

Because adept means better? And anyone can be more adept than they already are. I graduate from school with certain skills, my job experience made me adept at those skills. A car is made with certain standard specs, the owner upgraded it so it's more adept at turning and accelerating. Valkyr was made as combat frame, Alad V's experiment made her adept at killing.

[SilentMobius]

8 minutes ago, Kerberos-3 said:

And was that not what Valkyr was subjected to by Alad? And attempt to redesign her into a drone that the Corpus could control, that pain from which drove her mad. After all, Valkyr's Ripline ability is very much a result of Alad's tampering, seeing as he went out of his way to install reels on her arms.

Is it? I don't believe we are told that at all. All we know is that key Warframe parts were used in the the construction of Zanuka which appear to simply be an improved corpus proxy, as Alad V said "Hybridized with Warframe parts". We have no idea what the specific intent of the experiments on (presumably Gersemi) Valkyr were, all we know is what the end results were, Zanuka and Valkyr

Edited November 19, 2018 by SilentMobius

[Kerberos-3]

4 minutes ago, SilentMobius said:

Is it? I don't believe we are told that at all. All we know is that key Warframe parts were used in the the construction of Zanuka which appear to simply be an improved corpus proxy, as Alad V said "Hybridized with Warframe parts". We have no idea what the specific intent of the experiments on Valkyr were, all we know is what the end results were, Zanuka and Valkyr

It's pretty obvious thats what his intent was. After all, if his intent was to simply strip her for parts for Zanuka, then why mod her appearance at all? He installed bolts, antenna-looking bits on the back of her head, the massive grey boxes on her forearms(that probably contain the mechanisms for the Ripline ability). Its pretty obvious that his original intent was to convert Gersemi into what can basically be described as a really fancy Moa. After all, he did it a second time in his infested form, but with Mesa instead of Gersemi.

Edited November 19, 2018 by Kerberos-3

[(XBOX)zThulsaDoomz]

You leave Limbo alone

[SenorClipClop]

7 hours ago, CrimeHole said:

But then the prime comes out CLEARLY modeled after the "Post Alad V" of her skin, instead of her original base model being, again, by lore description Gersemi Valkyr. 
This makes absolutely no sense, why would it be modeled after post Alad V? Aren't primes the FIRST? By lore they are, so why wasn't she modeled primed after Gersemi? It should of been Valkyr Gersemi prime skin. But it wasn't. This just bothers me personally due to lore inconsistencies and aesthetics, but that's just me.

I'm sure that some of this comes from internal artistic consistency outside of lore. Artists probably modeled Valkyr Prime after vanilla Valkyr in the same way that they modeled other Primes after their own vanilla counterparts, with some exceptions in regard to swapping out a helmet shape here and there. Some of it may also come from the notion that although Warframe's lore can inspire the creation of new artistic Deluxe skins, those skins don't necessarily effect the lore of the game. Rhino Palatine has specific reference to being a temple guard, but there's no mention of Tenno temples anywhere in the game. However, Valkyr's tying of her cosmetics very closely to her backstory is a bit of an outlier. It does specifically state something about Valkyr's history that ties in with external parts of the game.

If we want justification, I recommend taking a look at Valkyr Prime's trailer here. In stark contrast to previous trailers where Ballas is waxing proudly about his creations, the trailer for Valkyr is pretty sinister. In it he seems sure that the Warframes will wrest themselves from Orokin control ("gnawing their limbs from the snare") and that they are a very real threat ("That is why they will destroy us"). Ballas also specifically mentions that the Warframes are "trapped and tortured, yet they remain animals". It's entirely likely that the Orokin needed to restrain Valkyr when she wasn't out killing. Then it makes sense that her bonds are fancy Orokin design and built into her (ie. her ankle loops).

[SenorClipClop]

3 hours ago, spirit_of_76 said:

there are casters with more base health

Such as?

[Evanescent]

If you listen to Valkyr Prime's trailer narration, you'll gather that it's suggesting she was formed from torture as all warframes were-only in her case, she gave form to her pain and rage,

The Orokin tooled her appearance in a way to reflect that, for their sick idea of beauty.

The Tenno reproduction that is Gersemi lost a lot of the detail from the prime, as is the case with all prime and vanilla counterparts.

So when Alad V took the scalpel to her, he only made her worse. What was once rage became hysteria. 

Why weren't her power visuals at least redesigned? Too much work for their schedule, which I hope they remedy at some point.

It's not nearly as inconsistent as you think!

[Zeclem]

11 hours ago, CrimeHole said:

But that also doesn't mean that she was as such prior to alad. (addressing the "angry cat lady she is now")
She could of been much more brawl-based with abilities less reliant off torture, "scared (non-prime description)" and scarring. 
Who knows who she was prior to gersemi. 

she could be yes, but she isnt. and thats not against the lore by any means. 

[ModernGreg]

9 hours ago, spirit_of_76 said:

the inconsistency is her health pool it should be higher there are casters with more base health

She becomes invulnerable during her ult and gets lifesteal. She doesn't need a large healthpool. 

[SilentMobius]

13 hours ago, Kerberos-3 said:

It's pretty obvious thats what his intent was. After all, if his intent was to simply strip her for parts for Zanuka, then why mod her appearance at all? He installed bolts, antenna-looking bits on the back of her head, the massive grey boxes on her forearms(that probably contain the mechanisms for the Ripline ability). Its pretty obvious that his original intent was to convert Gersemi into what can basically be described as a really fancy Moa. After all, he did it a second time in his infested form, but with Mesa instead of Gersemi.

They just look like restraints to me, the sort of thing you'd need to restrain a conscious Warframe while doing vivisection regardless of what you were trying to accomplish.

You say "obvious" and hence there are problems in the lore. I say that we know what is and anything undefined is therefor flexible to whatever the current actual state it.

Also, just FYI, "The Profit" trailer that had Alad V about to dissemble a Mag for parts? That was intended to be Valkyr (Check the Devstreams around Gradivus) but the mesh wasn't ready in time, so doesn't look like your assumption matches DE's original intent there.

EDIT: Found it, Devstream 18

Quote

Mynki, he was inspired by what Alad V was, what we kinda showed Alad V doing in the trailer, so she was kinda a result of someone escaping that. We tried really hard to get her in the place that Mag was in but the timing just couldn't line up.

So yeah, due to be dismantled and sold off for parts.

 

Edited November 19, 2018 by SilentMobius

[peterc3]

These threads always hinge on people not understanding "forged" can be used figuratively, not just literally. Does anyone read books anymore?

[Heatnix.]

The community's answer to all the plot holes and inconsistencies is "Shhh."

The official answer to all the plot holes and inconsistencies is "Shhh".

So there's your answer! Carry on playing.

[ElGuirrix]

This might be a bit far fetched but, doesn't Valkyr's codex entry particularly say that the "original" Valkyr was made angry and such in the Zanuka labs?

Then what if that's the reason prime looks more like vanilla, because it is the same buy dismantled and damaged and whatever by Alad V. Meanwhile Gersemi is just a deluxe skin, and as such doesn't necessarily have to be considered a "canon" variant of the frame, and more so a skin that was made with the pre-corpus idea in mind simply because people wanted that. Because if you think about it, most deluxe skins don't have that much to do with the vanilla, and pretty much nothing to do with the prime.

[spirit_of_76]

22 hours ago, SenorClipClop said:

Such as?

syarn,  khora, zephyr.  Valk has 100 health and 600/ 700 armor zephyr has 150 while kora and syarn have 125. they like every frame have less armor than Valk but she is significantly hampered by her low health pool.  at 150 base health she would have as much EHP as inaros but at 100 hp she has half as much EHP at about 10k.

 

[spirit_of_76]

17 hours ago, ModernGreg said:

She becomes invulnerable during her ult and gets lifesteal. She doesn't need a large healthpool. 

do you play her, her ult is too expensive to be used for any duration.  most of the time you don't have a damage mitigation ability active you have a massive health pool

[Dhrekr]

On 2018-11-18 at 10:42 PM, CrimeHole said:

Aren't primes the FIRST? By lore they are

By the way, is this actually in the lore?

What the lore says is:

- There seems to have been a prototype version for Warframes - the Proto series. Both Excalibur and Volt have a Proto skin - and while the one of Excalibur is a nod to DE's previous game, Volt's Proto lore unambiguously states that it's an experimental prototype that belongs to the past. So, Prime versions are not the first - Proto versions are. (That said, we are not certain that all Warframes had a prototype phase - the original Limbo, for instance, seems to have been the prototype itself).

- Non-Prime versions of Warframes were deployed during the Old War. An uncontroversial example is the Mirage that is remembered during the Hidden Messages quest - that was a non-Prime Mirage, lost fighting the Sentient, whose copy we retrieve. Arguably, the quests for Chroma, Limbo, Titania and Inaros show a non-Prime version existing in Orokin times.

- Prime Warframes are never, to the best of my knowledge, shown to be the original. That is not the case with weapons, where it's clear that many non-Primes are modern copies (such as the Burston).

- Furthermore, our Tenno went in the Second Dream while using transference into a non-Prime Warframe, showing once again the prevalent use of non-Prime Warframes.

 

The only lore that makes sense, in my opinion, is that at the time of the Orokin, both Primes and non-Primes existed. They were developed and manufactured simultaneously - maybe based on prototype versions. Most Tenno would only own non-Prime versions (hence there are so many non-Primes out there). It is likely that Prime versions were awarded by the Orokin to the Tenno of high standing and that the Primes would only be used in ceremonial missions, and that the Tenno would go on dangerous missions using their non-Prime versions (as, who cares whether a shabby non-Golden version gets ruined or damaged).

 

If you accept this, then the problem with Valkyr is somewhat lessened. Not entirely, though - it is now surprising that Alad V, while dissecting a Gersemini Valkyr,  just "happened" to make something very similar to the Prime (which Alad V had, presumably, never seen before). But maybe it's just that the Gersemini has more "internal similarity" to Valkyr Prime than we know - that is, you scratch her, and tubes pop out. So... yeah.

Edited November 20, 2018 by Dhrekr

[SenorClipClop]

4 hours ago, spirit_of_76 said:

syarn,  khora, zephyr.  Valk has 100 health and 600/ 700 armor zephyr has 150 while kora and syarn have 125.

That's fair, but looking at eHP (effective health), none of those frames come even remotely close to Valkyr, who snows absolutely every other frame except maybe Inaros. 50 of Valkyr's Health does not equal 50 of Zephyr's health.

3 hours ago, spirit_of_76 said:

her ult is too expensive to be used for any duration

Like, any duration? Even the 2-3 hits on enemies she needs to restore all her Health? How about the 30-odd seconds I run Hysteria for without minmaxing for efficiency or significantly depleting my Energy?

Edited November 20, 2018 by SenorClipClop

[spirit_of_76]

@SenorClipClop true you dont need to use it for very long if ever with how valuable her health is if but as I stated she has half of the health of an inaros and only one short duration damage mitigation and recovery.  as the berserker I feel that her kit (and skins) could reflect this better her 2 works very well with this Idea and her 3 (if fixed) seems like an intimidation but I feel that her 4 and in some respects her one could use some work to improve use and feel.  again she if you only look at EHP is third or fourth of all frames but if you include abilities that can be kept on she falls behind Gara and that is where I have a problem.  the warrior has less survivability and damage than the paladin and the zombies (Inaros, and nidus).  

 

granted most of that is her showing her age.  she is a pre parcore 2.0 frame and needs a look over on her ability numbers.   (that or make the prime have +100 hp over +100 armor)

Edited November 20, 2018 by spirit_of_76