PvP Suggestions

[Ezikeo]

Before I list my suggestions, I want everyone to know that, I really really want PvP to be good and I am certain it will be amazing in the near future.

I know there are players that want it to be removed, which makes no sense. It's like how trials/raids were removed and the players that didn't touch that content were happy it was. Logically it made no sense to me. I believe content should never be removed, more variety of things to do is always good. Not all players will like a certain content that another player might enjoy. Also some content just needs to be polished, hence PvP.

 

-I believe movement speed should be slowed down alot, maybe 50% also jump height, all mobility needs to be toned down a lot more for better gun play and melee play. Even though I don't play Destiny 2 anymore, but it's gunplay/PvP feels perfect, compared to WF.

-Also make the time to kill increased, damage feels too high.

-Also, make queuing up for games more seamless, I don't like the idea of waiting in an empty room for a game while waiting for other people to join, if anything make it so we can do other activities while waiting for a PvP queue.

Also bigger maps with more players, PvP for me has always been more fun with more players, teamwork becomes almost mandatory when you have large numbers and with an objective. Also it makes it engaging and enjoyable, maybe an 8 vs 8 or even bigger. More modes also.

-An example of a mode that could be done, would be a spy mission, where one side has to infiltrate and steal something from a vault and bring it back to extraction, while the other side has to defend against it.

-Another mode could be in the open fields of POE or Fortuna, you could make 2 opposing factions that the players would join. This would be open PvP that players could opt into, if they wanted to(no forced PvP) - So with this mode, players would be able to do bounties and dailies while fighting other Tennos of the opposing faction and maybe the rewards for killing an opposing Tenno would be a buff of some sort or a currency for cosmetics(conclave cosmetics that are already in the game). But with this mode, the open world maps would have to accommodate more than 4 players, 30 or more would be desirable.

[K4RN4]

13 minutes ago, Ezikeo said:

I know there are players that want it to be removed, which makes no sense. It's like how trials/raids were removed and the players that didn't touch that content were happy it was. Logically it made no sense to me. I believe content should never be removed, more variety of things to do is always good. Not all players will like a certain content that another player might enjoy. Also some content just needs to be polished, hence PvP.

It's a matter of maintainance. DE spends time on conclave, so they don't spend time on regular content. This reasoning was used by DE to legitimate removing raids.

 

15 minutes ago, Ezikeo said:

I believe movement speed should be slowed down alot, maybe 50% also jump height, all mobility needs to be toned down a lot more for better gun play and melee play. Even though I don't play Destiny 2 anymore, but it's gunplay/PvP feels perfect, compared to WF.

-Also make the time to kill increased, damage feels too high

That is just how warframe is. It's pretty fast and making conclave significantly diffrent, would make no sense.

 

17 minutes ago, Ezikeo said:

Also bigger maps with more players, PvP for me has always been more fun with more players, teamwork becomes almost mandatory when you have large numbers and with an objective. Also it makes it engaging and enjoyable, maybe an 8 vs 8 or even bigger. More modes also

Player hosted sessions can't get too big unless DE decides to provide servers , which they dont.

[Stormdragon]

On 2018-11-18 at 8:32 PM, Oru5732 said:

It's a matter of maintainance. DE spends time on conclave, so they don't spend time on regular content. This reasoning was used by DE to legitimate removing raids.

There's a big difference between maintaining content that breaks easily when something else is touched and conclave, which rarely ever gets bugs and most of the tweaks to it are balance passes, which is mostly tweaking a few numbers and that's it.

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Player hosted sessions can't get too big unless DE decides to provide servers , which they dont.

There are already player hosted servers, however i agree, some servers already have questionable quality, so in order to provide a smooth experience on matches with more than 8 players, DE would have to either set their own servers (and some expensive ones while at it) ir at least set some minimum requirements to host.

On 2018-11-18 at 8:13 PM, Ezikeo said:

-I believe movement speed should be slowed down alot, maybe 50% also jump height, all mobility needs to be toned down a lot more for better gun play and melee play. Even though I don't play Destiny 2 anymore, but it's gunplay/PvP feels perfect, compared to WF.

-Also make the time to kill increased, damage feels too high.

The ttk is fine when we keep in mind our high mobility, and as pointed before by Oru, reducing warframe mobility further doesn't make any sense. It has already been toned down to range between 0.8 (tanks) to 1.0 (lights) when unmodded, where 1.0 is pve base mobility.

On 2018-11-18 at 8:13 PM, Ezikeo said:

-Also, make queuing up for games more seamless, I don't like the idea of waiting in an empty room for a game while waiting for other people to join, if anything make it so we can do other activities while waiting for a PvP queue.

This is something i can totally agree with, we could go a bit further and request a match/server browser, which has been requested for years after player hosting was added due to it being the next logical step.

Edited November 20, 2018 by Stormdragon

[Ezikeo]

The reason why I have an issue with mobility at the moment is the meta it drives it towards. Right now, PvP is all about who can move the fastest with bullet jump while sniping, it makes other guns and melee weapons irrelevant. If the game was slowed down, it would make other weapons viable.

Also I don't believe the TTK is fine, most players I have played with have said the same thing. Dying in 2-3 seconds without really being able to react really deterrents players from enjoying the game. Players want to feel like they can react to a situation, rather then getting gimped. What we have to also remember, is that this game with the TTK being so low, most players aren't able or don't have to use their frames ability. Which makes no sense.

[(PSN)ForcedSin_erity]

wasnt movement slowed down a while ago(at leats bullet jumping, that was honestly pretty terrible) iirc..then changed back?

 

 

34 minutes ago, Ezikeo said:

. If the game was slowed down, it would make other weapons viable.

 

that also make meta more viable too...

[UseNet]

7 hours ago, Ezikeo said:

-I believe movement speed should be slowed down alot, maybe 50% also jump height, all mobility needs to be toned down a lot more

Also bigger maps 

This hurt my brain.

[Ezikeo]

On 2018-11-18 at 4:49 PM, (PS4)FarCript said:

wasnt movement slowed down a while ago(at leats bullet jumping, that was honestly pretty terrible) iirc..then changed back?

 

 

that also make meta more viable too...

Not sure why the community still thinks conclave should be a jumping simulator. Clearly the population speaks for itself. 

[Tachmag]

52 minutes ago, Ezikeo said:

Not sure why the community still thinks conclave should be a jumping simulator. Clearly the population speaks for itself. 

"Clearly the PvE population who doesn't dedicate any amount of time to the  gamemode speaks for itself."

[Ezikeo]

42 minutes ago, Tachmag said:

"Clearly the PvE population who doesn't dedicate any amount of time to the  gamemode speaks for itself."

Enjoy your 30 mins pvp queues or go sit idle in your dojo waiting for a duel. Cause clearly not changing and fixing the current flawed PvP mode and just catering to you and the minority is helping with the popularity and population... Your constructive criticism was welcome... And btw I been here since beta Mr. 2017, so I'm sure my hours and years speaks for how much time I've dedicated.

[Stormdragon]

6 hours ago, Ezikeo said:

Enjoy your 30 mins pvp queues or go sit idle in your dojo waiting for a duel.

Dojo duels don't have public matchmaking, you need to invite people to your dojo, take them to the dueling room and have them take a sit in front of you for a duel to start, so i wouldn't be surprised if you can sit for 60 hours waiting for someone to join and still have no response.

Going back to conclave, personally i have never had to wait half an hour for a conclave match. 

This part of the comment only shows how far out of the loop you are.

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Cause clearly not changing and fixing the current flawed PvP mode and just catering to you and the minority is helping with the popularity and population...

Clearly one of the main arguments from pve players is that they came here for a pve experience, so no matter how much conclave changes, a chunk of the community will still not bother with it. Doing other suggested stuff such as removing mobility is the same as turning warframe into csgo/cod or whatever, which is far different from warframe gameplay.

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Your constructive criticism was welcome... And btw I been here since beta Mr. 2017, so I'm sure my hours and years speaks for how much time I've dedicated.

I don't see how the account age bears some importance when providing feedback, and even less when you talk down to others using your "dedication" as an argument despite having a really low time played count that could be easily surpassed in around a month by someone actually dedicated.

Spoiler

 

Edited November 20, 2018 by Stormdragon

[(PSN)ForcedSin_erity]

17 hours ago, Ezikeo said:

Not sure why the community still thinks conclave should be a jumping simulator. Clearly the population speaks for itself. 

I completely agree with you on not wanting conclave to be a "jumping simulator" but now i see the current movement is what makes  Warframe pvp unique ish.

 

maybe have a cool down for the mobility...but i guess that would make the skill gap higher which imo not going to benefit conclave if thats the case.

what i would really like to see is...unify?(no more variants of the same weapon).

this way devs can have an easier time balancing weapons.

Edited November 21, 2018 by (PS4)FarCript

[Ezikeo]

6 hours ago, (PS4)FarCript said:

I completely agree with you on not wanting conclave to be a "jumping simulator" but now i see the current movement is what makes  Warframe pvp unique ish.

 

maybe have a cool down for the mobility...but i guess that would make the skill gap higher which imo not going to benefit conclave if thats the case.

what i would really like to see is...unify?(no more variants of the same weapon).

this way devs can have an easier time balancing weapons.

Yeah I agree, maybe a cool down would be good, maybe 6-8 seconds cd on bullet jump, with 2 charges wouldn’t be too bad. 

[Stormhawkaro]

hace 3 horas, Ezikeo dijo:

Yeah I agree, maybe a cool down would be good, maybe 6-8 seconds cd on bullet jump, with 2 charges wouldn’t be too bad. 

There is a lotta other games if u want grounded combat. 6-8 seconds cooldown would be sh*t and u goin 2 die moar than b4. Do not ruin what is not broken, n00b.

[Stormdragon]

22 hours ago, (PS4)FarCript said:

maybe have a cool down for the mobility...but i guess that would make the skill gap higher which imo not going to benefit conclave if thats the case.

To be fair, the idea sounds good on paper (less bulletjumps for my enemies!) But it's actually awful in practice since that means a brand new limitation to get used to, and one that i guess most players don't want to see added to the game.

And yes, i'm saying to "to the game" as a whole since changes to core mechanics make sense only if done to both, PvP and PvE altogether, otherwise the only thing achieved is making the gameplay feel disconnected when transitioning between modes, and to make things worse, this is already part of the reasons why many players don't bother with conclave  since everything, from mechanical skill (aiming, parkour) to actual knowledge of game mechanics (modding system, utility of different damage types, energy management, positioning, etc.) can be easily trivialized in PvE but is really important for PvP.  Suddenly adding something new to the mix only makes that disconnection feel even bigger.

To make it simple, imagine learning to make use of parkour through PvE gameplay until you feel comfortable enough to jump into conclave, only to find out that in there you can only bullet jump a couple of times before being stuck to the ground for a short time, or to see that now you have a brand new bar somewhere in the ui and you don't know what it means until you figure out it's actually stamina, a new resource to manage that doesn't exist in PvE.

Edited November 21, 2018 by Stormdragon

[-Himari-]

Cleaned comments that would feed an unwanted fire.

Let's keep the discussion civil. It's a good one.

[Tyreaus]

A random thought:

If mobility is too much, could an alternative to a stamina bar be something like slowing down everything movement? Incl. falling speeds, akin to a bullet-time mechanic, perhaps based off PvE mobility as a base. Similar feel, different pace, which I think is kind of what people concerned about that aim for anyway, no?

Maybe I'm off-base though, IDK.

[(PSN)FriendSharkey]

To be honest I'm surprised Conclave isn't screaming for the Dojo Obstacle course to be outfitted for PVP...Halo Forge and Halo Reach's forge world generated tons of  PVP game modes for players by the players...I would be begging De to take a page out of Halo's forge and add the ability to create PVP maps ranging from Death Matches to Fat Boy...I would love to be able to spend hours setting up a Indiana Jones Map for Warframes like I did for Spartans....

[Ezikeo]

On 2018-11-23 at 9:03 AM, Tyreaus said:

A random thought:

If mobility is too much, could an alternative to a stamina bar be something like slowing down everything movement? Incl. falling speeds, akin to a bullet-time mechanic, perhaps based off PvE mobility as a base. Similar feel, different pace, which I think is kind of what people concerned about that aim for anyway, no?

Maybe I'm off-base though, IDK.

That would probably help.

But what most players don’t understand about shooters, is what makes it popular and enjoyable. If you look at all the top FPS/shooter games at the moment, they all have one thing in common (Destiny 2, Counter Strike, Call of Duty, PubG, Rainbow 6, Overwatch) those games limits the players mobility. And in doing so, allows for really good gunplay and strategy. However with a game like Warframe, with no limitations, gunplay becomes nonexistent. Also using spells in Conclave isn’t really needed, due to the fact that you can just bullet jump to away and shoot from a distance. And with the freedom of mobility to engage or disengage, melee weapons become useless. 

Honestly DE needs to stop catering to the minority(jumping simulator vets) and start looking at its biggest competitor(Destiny 2) and make a change. Because as it stands right now, Destiny 2 is vastly superior to WF when it comes to PvP, due to its gunplay and game speed. However when WF adapts, it will hands down crush Destiny 2. 

[Tachmag]

1 hour ago, Ezikeo said:

That would probably help.

But what most players don’t understand about shooters, is what makes it popular and enjoyable. If you look at all the top FPS/shooter games at the moment, they all have one thing in common (Destiny 2, Counter Strike, Call of Duty, PubG, Rainbow 6, Overwatch) those games limits the players mobility. And in doing so, allows for really good gunplay and strategy. However with a game like Warframe, with no limitations, gunplay becomes nonexistent. Also using spells in Conclave isn’t really needed, due to the fact that you can just bullet jump to away and shoot from a distance. And with the freedom of mobility to engage or disengage, melee weapons become useless. 

Honestly DE needs to stop catering to the minority(jumping simulator vets) and start looking at its biggest competitor(Destiny 2) and make a change. Because as it stands right now, Destiny 2 is vastly superior to WF when it comes to PvP, due to its gunplay and game speed. However when WF adapts, it will hands down crush Destiny 2. 

If you enjoy those slower games so much, why don't you play said slower games instead of trying to turn the Conclave into a carbon copy of every other shooter in the market?

[Ezikeo]

8 hours ago, Tachmag said:

If you enjoy those slower games so much, why don't you play said slower games instead of trying to turn the Conclave into a carbon copy of every other shooter in the market?

Because the lack of popularity will eventually result in the removal of the mode and PvP as whole.

[Tyreaus]

8 hours ago, Ezikeo said:

If you look at all the top FPS/shooter games at the moment, they all have one thing in common (Destiny 2, Counter Strike, Call of Duty, PubG, Rainbow 6, Overwatch) those games limits the players mobility.

I think it's a little bit more than that.

Firstly, from clips I've seen of D2, there's a lot of mobility possibility (I think Voidwalker can teleport?). CoD has been increasing mobility since its inception with sliding and wall-running and the like. Overwatch has varying levels of mobility, up to outright flying. If we take a historical glance, we can also look at the popularity of arena shooters and the absurd mobility in those, i.e. rocket jumping and running at 1/3 the speed of light.

Secondly, just because a list shares two traits (mobility and popularity) does not entail one trait causes another. Unless you've polled players on why they like a particular game and found, across the board, that they like the lower mobility, it's just as likely to be coincidence (on the fact that the vast majority of shooters in general don't have Warframe's style of movement, thus of course the top ones also won't). Realistically, we could conclude—with the same level of certainty—that it's the first person perspective (PubG has that option IIRC) that makes those games popular. You'll probably doubt that, but that's the point.

Lastly, tooling a game in the direction of some other game is not a recipe for guaranteed success. Just because Destiny 2 has grenades on cooldown and Overwatch has abilities on cooldown does not entail those are things Conclave should have. DOOM's multiplayer did something like that, taking elements from CoD like loadouts and the such. Compared to the PvE mode, it...did not do well. The solution that should be aimed for is an abstract ideal, not "Destiny 2 but with space ninjas". One way to do such is to figure what makes the PvE mode popular and implement more, not less, of that into PvP, either literally or in spirit. Objectives, for an example you mentioned in your opening post. If Warframe already has a solution to make it popular, why aim for an entirely different dartboard?