Revenant is the Worst Frame in the Game

[(PSN)UltraKardas]

23 minutes ago, DUSTCLOUD said:

7 is still bad.
mallet is good damage, doesn't last long decent range, crap movement. forces you to recast. Same with amp.
her 3 is nice as it stays with you but is limited to buffs and stealth.

 

Except Mallet follows you with roller. Replenishes energy over time when you cast it. Scales to the damage enemies deal to it, and is further amplified by amp. While Amp buffs your weapon and power damage, as well as every other warframe near you. 

Just give this a quick look. See how crazy she can get. 

 

[DUSTCLOUD]

1 hour ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

Except Mallet follows you with roller. Replenishes energy over time when you cast it. Scales to the damage enemies deal to it, and is further amplified by amp. While Amp buffs your weapon and power damage, as well as every other warframe near you. 

Just give this a quick look. See how crazy she can get. 

 

That's not scaling so much as reflecting.

This would be scaling.

 

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

He’s not the worst( that honor goes to Wukong), his 4 basically cares him, but he is an incredibly lackluster frame that requires a revisit. 

[(PSN)Yuki5e7en]

It's weird to say it here, but I kinda like him for his second ability. Not sure if its a bug or a feature, as long as his Miasma Skin is active, you can't die even from self-damage.
This makes him good with explosive weapons such as Phantasma's Alt-fire (Which i'm currently using with riven).

I've build him for strength and duration for his 1st ability, those pillars they left can kill low level enemies and keeps high level enemies at bay by staggering them. Unfortunately those pillars can be destroyed before the duration is expired by shooting at them either from you or allies. 

I barely use his 3rd ability since I can't die as long as I have Miasma skin active, why bother leaching enemies? His 4th ability is brainless ability, activate it and walk around while enemies die around you. Not my type TBH.

Overall, he's weird and needs improvement and I hope Miasma skin immortality against self-damage is a feature not a bug to be fix. If fixed, I dont know what will he be good at ... 

[Birdframe_Prime]

In this I'll point out that DE does go through phases.

A few years ago, starting in 2013 and extending all the way through to the start of 2017 we had... wait for it... Oberon, Zephyr and Hydroid. Three frames created in a row that were objectively terrible.

Oberon had the most ridiculously forced synergy, bad buffs,  bad healing, and bad damage, he was inconsistent and only really functioned as a specific team frame, and could be made to work Solo. Zephyr had zero actual power other than as a platform for your weapons, she could survive and (at the time) had better mobility than every other frame in the game, but her 1 was erratic, her 2 was niche, her 3 was buggy and her 4 was actively counter-productive to any situation apart from emergency CC. Hydroid only became in any way useful after two specific situations appeared, the first was when Pilfering Swarm was released, and the second was during the event where the Bursar units were introduced as his puddle could CC those buggers for longer than any other frame could as they actively tried to throw themselves at their allies to get killed.

What happened?

Oberon got reworked, they dealt closely with one of the most prominent content creators that played and loved the frame and took common sense suggestions, there were some hiccups, but the result was one of the strongest support frames in the game, with partial scaling damage, great CC and buffs that applied equally to every frame in the game.

Hydroid got reworked, although maybe not in the way the public wanted, and now has some real synergy between his abilities. Still needs a few tweaks, but you can take him to pretty much any level of play. CC on top of CC, with effective damage and self-sustain, plus the Pilfering Swarm does still exist.

Zephyr got a rework, not an especially good one, but one that fixed all the actual drawbacks of her 4, sidelined her old 2 and gave her some short-range CC that gave her something she actually lacked; a way to push back melee enemies without casting 4. Her 1 is now... debatable as to the trade-off, it's faster and goes further now, great for travelling open areas, but is now impossible to control in confined spaces, which is everywhere outside of the Plains and Vallis. And, of course, her 3 is no longer buggy and players are using her more to take their time dealing with enemies.

So yeah, Revenant is not as good as many of the other frames.

But that doesn't mean that he's off the radar. DE will be changing him, they will be looking for ways to update him.

He may not be the best. But he works and doesn't break the game, and if he works and doesn't break the game, then for now it's okay that he's not as good.

Edited November 19, 2018 by Thaylien

[Madway7]

2 hours ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

He’s not the worst( that honor goes to Wukong), his 4 basically cares him, but he is an incredibly lackluster frame that requires a revisit. 

I would say its Vauban, at least Wukong has survivability.

[Howl4Me]

36 minutes ago, Madway7 said:

I would say its Vauban, at least Wukong has survivability.

Vauban has bar-none the best CC in the game. He's absolutely awfully designed, but he still stands slightly above Revenant in that he is actually good at at least one thing. 

[(PSN)Lei-Lei_23]

If only Revenant’s Danse Macabre had its Status Chance tied to Power Strength, where you can achieve 100% Status Chance at 250% Power Strength, then he’d be world’s better than he is right now.

[(PSN)thefallenloser]

Revenant the most poorly balanced, worst Frame in the game? Not by a longer shot. Ember, Wukong, and Khora say hi.

On 2018-11-18 at 8:31 PM, Glyphicality said:

Oh, and this ability is just another retread of Hydroid's Tidal Surge, except without the fun and ridiculous CC that throws enemies all over the place. 

This is almost like saying that Mend & Maim is a retread of Blessing. All Frames are bound to have similarities to another Frame. Though they both propel you forwards, they have completely different applications.

[(XBOX)ALTBOULI]

I guess I'm one of the few that likes the current revenant, though I wouldn't be against buffing him. 

Personally I think Vauban is in a worse place currently

[Enno69]

Glad I saw this topic before I started crafting him. I really wanted to like him but your arguments are pretty damn convincing. I'll try out Gara instead.

 

I'm really curious though, do you know what Revenant's kit looked like before "DE changed it" as some of you have said ?

Edited November 21, 2018 by Enno69

[IceColdHawk]

On 2018-11-19 at 2:58 AM, Glyphicality said:

Ehh, I really like Khora, actually. She does her job reasonably well and she doesn't suffer from the same 'this is just the same ability another frame does' thing. All of her abilities were unique, had good synergies, and were perfectly good at what they did. I don't think she's the best frame or anything, but she's actually my personal favorite and I think she holds up fairly well, nothing at all like Revenant who... just got screwed, honestly, because all of his abilities were not only bad but also copies of everyone else's abilities. 😕

Eh, sorry, but excuse me? How is Whipclaw not just another 1st ability that deals damage and scales with melee mods? How is her 2 not a worse copy of Nidus' Larva? What about her 3 being just a kavat with some boni added in? How is her 4th not a limited and more expensive Vauban Bastille? And at the same time, you claim Revenants 4 is similar to Sandstorm (which deals pretty much no damage) or his Mesmer Skin is similar to Shatter Shield, which by the waydoesn't stun enemies, shield you from self damage, melee units and only has a damage reduction? I smell some strong bias in this thread.

On 2018-11-19 at 9:22 AM, Glyphicality said:

Ember's is for good, strong, passive damage that can be amped up with Accelerant, and Revenant's is for massive burst damage.

How is embers 4 dealing "strong" damage after enemies beyond the level 40? Revenant can still clear lvl 100s with ease.

On 2018-11-19 at 9:22 AM, Glyphicality said:

and also, y'know, cancels out any DPS that might be attained by Revenant's weapons

Why does it matter when you can hit enemies 50m away from you in 360 degrees in orb vallis t5 bounty and instantly kill them?

On 2018-11-19 at 9:22 AM, Glyphicality said:

Also, it can't hit enemies above him, either, and he has to cancel it any time he wants to get around reasonably.

If have to jump up somehow then this can be applied to Peacemaker as well, an ability that gets praised by many. Otherwise you can just reave around and steer with your mouse very easy and quickly. It even costs less energy when used while using his 4.

On 2018-11-19 at 9:22 AM, Glyphicality said:

Ember is poorly designed too, but at least she works for something well. She does bring something to the table that no other frame does. Revenant doesn't. At all. 

WoF is easily replaced by Ignis Wraith and this weapon lasts you for longer. Revenant isn't the best in DPS, CC or anything of the sorts. But he's good in many aspects. Can deal scaling damage and onehit lvl 9999 enemies even through armor, can AoE clear, can be invincibile and stun anyone that dares to touch him and he can get thralls out that draw aggro away and get more enemies onto your side just by hitting them once. How in the world is that anywhere close to "worst frame in the game"? What about Hydroid, Wukong or Atlas?

5 hours ago, Enno69 said:

Glad I saw this topic before I started crafting him. I really wanted to like him but your arguments are pretty damn convincing. I'll try out Gara instead.

If you want to, you can like him. Some do prefer to hate him. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Though i'd prefer to play Revenant over Gara to be honest. Gara seems to just be yet another Damage Reduction frame with a less reliable Snowglobe ability.

[(PSN)LoisGordils]

I agree. Revenant is EXTREMELY  lackluster. Remove the mind control from Enthrall and instead let him mark enemies, spawning Vombalysts when said enemies are slain. Moreover, the pillars of light left behind once the enemy is slain could restore energy to anyone standing in them. Alleviating his heavy energy consumption. The projectiles released from the pillars should scale with enemy health.

[Conflux59]

I'll go out on a limb and say those using the word synergy to describe Revenants skills affecting one another, may not quite grasp the whole meaning.
"A synergy is a special type of combination where the resulting entity is greater than the sum of its parts"
So..when you have an ability that cancels out another ability, that would be the opposite of synergy.  or... "reduction in total effect"
A move affecting another move doesn't = "synergy"  It means exactly that - one move affects another.  When they become (see underlined word above^) something greater when combined, then that would be considered a synergy.
His 4 cancels out his 1  = reduction in total effect
Multiple abilities that generate shields and overshields for your frame + a passive based on running out of shields... \o/ ??  your "reduction" is evolving!... it evolved into... "useless" 

Edited November 22, 2018 by Conflux59

[KrazyKavatLady]

On 2018-11-19 at 10:55 AM, (PS4)Yuki5e7en said:

It's weird to say it here, but I kinda like him for his second ability. Not sure if its a bug or a feature, as long as his Miasma Skin is active, you can't die even from self-damage.

Agreed. I really enjoy hitting 2 and basically being invincible.

His 4 is also enjoyable, even with it's mini-nerf. I love how Rev sounds like a muffled lawn-mower with it. =D

Overall I think Rev is now in a good spot, his 1 is still meh- but other frames also have at least one skill that's basically useless or undesirable. So I'm not bothered by it. Plus his 1 can be a decent CC depending on the situation anyways. 

[ReshyShira]

Honestly, thralls should work like Nyx's mind control in that they don't take damage from the players until the duration on enthrall expires *then* they die.

[ZebraRoy]

His 3 is actually a damage skills that scale with % health. The number seems low but you can deal the damage multiple times with single cast

With some duration, you can pass through a enemy at least twice.

(or you can one shot any enemy with ease...)

 

[Howl4Me]

18 hours ago, IceColdHawk said:

Eh, sorry, but excuse me? How is Whipclaw not just another 1st ability that deals damage and scales with melee mods? How is her 2 not a worse copy of Nidus' Larva? What about her 3 being just a kavat with some boni added in? How is her 4th not a limited and more expensive Vauban Bastille? And at the same time, you claim Revenants 4 is similar to Sandstorm (which deals pretty much no damage) or his Mesmer Skin is similar to Shatter Shield, which by the waydoesn't stun enemies, shield you from self damage, melee units and only has a damage reduction? I smell some strong bias in this thread.

How is embers 4 dealing "strong" damage after enemies beyond the level 40? Revenant can still clear lvl 100s with ease.

Why does it matter when you can hit enemies 50m away from you in 360 degrees in orb vallis t5 bounty and instantly kill them?

If have to jump up somehow then this can be applied to Peacemaker as well, an ability that gets praised by many. Otherwise you can just reave around and steer with your mouse very easy and quickly. It even costs less energy when used while using his 4.

WoF is easily replaced by Ignis Wraith and this weapon lasts you for longer. Revenant isn't the best in DPS, CC or anything of the sorts. But he's good in many aspects. Can deal scaling damage and onehit lvl 9999 enemies even through armor, can AoE clear, can be invincibile and stun anyone that dares to touch him and he can get thralls out that draw aggro away and get more enemies onto your side just by hitting them once. How in the world is that anywhere close to "worst frame in the game"? What about Hydroid, Wukong or Atlas?

If you want to, you can like him. Some do prefer to hate him. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Though i'd prefer to play Revenant over Gara to be honest. Gara seems to just be yet another Damage Reduction frame with a less reliable Snowglobe ability.

So to start.

Her 1 is, sure, another ability like that, but it's unique in the way it's deployed and fun to use even still. Those abilities are some of the most fun in my opinion and as long as each one is different, it's fine. Her 2... yeah, okay, fair, I wasn't thinking about that one. 3 is true, but having an additional companion ontop of one you already have that has some unique features is definitely unique to Khora. And 4, because it actually deals damage that can kill lower-end enemies and you can quickly kill lots of enemies by whipclawing those who are attached to it; bastille doesn't deal damage.

You are absolutely wrong about both of the things you just said. I said Mesa's Shatter Shield WITH THE STAGGER SHIELD AUGMENT, which does stagger enemies, just not for as long as Mesmer Skin does. Besides just being a pure invulnerability ability, Mesmer Skin is just a straight copy of another ability's augmented concept. As for the other thing, Inaros' sandstorm deals immense damage when built correctly and can blend level 100+ Grineer in no time while also CCing them. 

As for your second point, you still ignored what I was saying, which is that Ember's damage is much more passive, energy efficient, and better at trash clearing because she doesn't have to nearly immobilize herself and repeatedly switch in and out of her ability, making it good for consistent, passive damage. She fills a different niche than Revenant does; you take Ember on low-level missions to kill lots of enemies fast, something that she does better than most frames. You could take Revenant to do damage to high level enemies... or you could take Mesa, who does what he does better in practically every way.

Reave cannot be used for vertical movement to reorient a Dansing Revenant, so that doesn't fix the problem of not being able to hit enemies that are above him; what DOES fix that problem is Mesa's ability... to aim upwards. So no, that doesn't really address my complaint. Oh, and Reave is energy-intensive and adds more cost ontop of the already expensive Danse Macabre. Great. 

As for your closing complaint: part of my issue with 'worst frame in the game' doesn't come from his actual ability in combat, but from the fact that all of his abilities are boring. He's just a badly designed frame. All the frames you mentioned are much more unique, cohesive and fun than Revenant is, and all of them still have niches where they work. Wukong has some of the best solo survivability in the game, Hydroid has Pilfering Swarm and some pretty all-around good CC capabilities, and Atlas has Petrify, which is one of the most powerful CC abilities in the game, along with pretty strong survivability and tons and tons of damage; he's just a fairly well-rounded frame with fun and unique abilities.

As for Revenant's infinite scaling: you're right! I'm sure the 0.00001% of players who ever even see level 200 enemies will appreciate that ability! You know, given that with anything below that it would be more effective to just shoot the thralls one by one rather than to spend all that energy to reave them, since for as long as they're enthralled they're already no threat to you! For the rest of us that do anything other than ridiculous Mot survival runs and etc., and like to have fun, dynamic frames that actually have abilities we will ever need to use, well... that's unsatisfactory. 

Edited November 22, 2018 by Glyphicality

[Enno69]

5 minutes ago, Glyphicality said:

[snip]

What about this player's criticism of Gara compared to Revenant, do you disagree with them ?

[Howl4Me]

On 2018-11-20 at 5:25 AM, (PS4)ArtPrince17 said:

Revenant the most poorly balanced, worst Frame in the game? Not by a longer shot. Ember, Wukong, and Khora say hi.

This is almost like saying that Mend & Maim is a retread of Blessing. All Frames are bound to have similarities to another Frame. Though they both propel you forwards, they have completely different applications.

Ember: Good at trash clearing in low level missions. One more use than Revenant has.

Wukong: Best survivability in the game. Still one more use than Revenant has.

Khora: Can heal defense objectives and has plenty of good CC. Still one more use than Revenant has.

As for the tidal surge thing: Both turn you into an invulnerable mass of energy/water and send you flying forward through enemies. All frames are bound to have some similarity, but not have every single ability just be the same ability that another frame has with a reskin. Look at Garuda; all 4 of her abilities are unique to her, with different physicality and behavior from other frames. Now look at Revenant; not one of his abilities isn't something a different frame does, just with tweaked effects. 

[Howl4Me]

 

1 minute ago, Enno69 said:

What about this player's criticism of Gara compared to Revenant, do you disagree with them ?

Kind of. I agree that her 4 is a touch lackluster compared to Snowglobe, although I'd argue it has some unique benefits of its own. Gara's 3 is totally pointless, but her 2 is exceptionally strong and unique because it can be used to reduce damage to objectives by 90%, even rooted ones like Cryopods, which not even Nezha's Safeguard augment can do. This alone gives her a noticeable niche where she works well, and her 1 is just kind of fun tbh. 

[IceColdHawk]

23 minutes ago, Glyphicality said:

 You are absolutely wrong about both of the things you just said. I said Mesa's Shatter Shield WITH THE STAGGER SHIELD AUGMENT, which does stagger enemies, just not for as long as Mesmer Skin does. Besides just being a pure invulnerability ability, Mesmer Skin is just a straight copy of another ability's augmented concept. As for the other thing, Inaros' sandstorm deals immense damage when built correctly and can blend level 100+ Grineer in no time while also CCing them. 

Yeah. Totally gonna love me some 50% chance to proc impact on enemies and also waste a mod slot for that. Why does it matter again that his 2nd ability has some resemblance of another, when despite being way better, you end up putting him below anyway?

25 minutes ago, Glyphicality said:

 As for your second point, you still ignored what I was saying, which is that Ember's damage is much more passive, energy efficient, and better at trash clearing because she doesn't have to nearly immobilize herself and repeatedly switch in and out of her ability, making it good for consistent, passive damage. She fills a different niche than Revenant does; you take Ember on low-level missions to kill lots of enemies fast, something that she does better than most frames. You could take Revenant to do damage to high level enemies... or you could take Mesa, who does what he does better in practically every way.

Ember's days of passive low level clearing are counted. Equinox is faster, has no enemy limits, scales and has a higher range. Equinox alone makes Ember obsolete. Ember's niche? Can't find it.

27 minutes ago, Glyphicality said:

 Reave cannot be used for vertical movement to reorient a Dansing Revenant, so that doesn't fix the problem of not being able to hit enemies that are above him; what DOES fix that problem is Mesa's ability... to aim upwards. So no, that doesn't really address my complaint. Oh, and Reave is energy-intensive and adds more cost ontop of the already expensive Danse Macabre. Great. 

My weapons can aim upwars as well and don't cost energy. What's your point? Okay fine, i deactivate, jump up, reactivate and 360 the whole area away. With Mesa i at least have to aim and require pistol mods. And that is damage that doesn't even adapt to enemies weaknesses unlike Danse Macabre. There's ONE THING though that i can agree on about being useless with Reave and that is the health drain. Why would you want to move through enemies to get health back on a frame that takes no damage anyway? Addition to that the countless ways to heal yourself. That's really something i could consider "useless".

30 minutes ago, Glyphicality said:

As for your closing complaint: part of my issue with 'worst frame in the game' doesn't come from his actual ability in combat, but from the fact that all of his abilities are boring.

That's your opinion. You don't enjoy him, okay. That doesn't make him bad though.

30 minutes ago, Glyphicality said:

All the frames you mentioned are much more unique, cohesive and fun than Revenant is, and all of them still have niches where they work.

And to claim that Hydroid and Wukong are more fun than Revenant, more or less discredits your whole post. If we ignore that this is actually completely subjective and once again has nothing to do on how good a frame is. Hydroid is the epitome of afkness and Wukong can do nothing but be invincible, that btw a proper built Inaros can do way easier without having to reactivate any ability. Unless we're talking about levels that you apparently mentioned as a negligible thing due to not enough players playing there. So where does Wukongs "best survivability" matter again?

33 minutes ago, Glyphicality said:

As for Revenant's infinite scaling: you're right! I'm sure the 0.00001% of players who ever even see level 200 enemies will appreciate that ability!

I'd like to have a source to that claim.

34 minutes ago, Glyphicality said:

For the rest of us that do anything other than ridiculous Mot survival runs and etc., and like to have fun

So, testing the waters with your maxed and final builds is not what you consider fun. What do you consider fun then? Repeating bounties over and over? Sorties only to get punished? What is it?

Okay, with that out of the way let me just remind you that fun is no argument on whether a frame is good or not. Just because a frame is boring TO YOU, doesn't mean he is bad. You don't have to like him. But you gotta be objective when you're trying to discuss why he needs buffed/nerfed/reworked. You don't seem to be the type of player that likes endurance runs, which is fine. But there are people out there that do. And for them, Revenant can actually DO something and be potent. It seemed like it wasn't apparent to you on what Revenant is capable of and you seemed biased towards other frames as could be seen here.

I don't even think i'd be here if you had titled the thread properly as "Revenant is the most boring frame" which would still be wrong since it doesn't apply to everyone but at least people would know that you just dislike a frames kit instead of actually being able to proof that he's literally more useless than the other frames. Because that, is just not true.

[Howl4Me]

2 minutes ago, IceColdHawk said:

snip

To the bit about the "what do you consider fun", that's not what I meant. I said "those of us that like to have fun, dynamic frames", which was all one word. Revenant basically has one, static use. And also, this is feedback where people give their opinions, and not everything I say is going to be fact; it is my strong opinion that Revenant's design is absolutely horrible because all of his abilities are just a reskin, better or worse that they may be, of other frames' abilities, and for the most part he serves in two very tiny roles and for everyone else he offers absolutely nothing new. 

[ZodiacShinryu]

11 hours ago, Conflux59 said:

His 4 cancels out his 1  = reduction in total effect
Multiple abilities that generate shields and overshields for your frame + a passive based on running out of shields... \o/ ??  your "reduction" is evolving!... it evolved into... "useless" 

But are you the authority of who dictates what is and is not "greater"? I can certainly understand the argument and agree that people misuse the term "synergy" but I think you moved too far in the opposite direction. The synergy is more theoretical than practical (mostly because of energy limitations) but there are certainly situations where you benefit from the effects together. So his 4 doesn't cancel his 1 as much as it changes the dynamic.

Suggesting that his 1 is useless is different than saying it in general needs some tweaks. The energy pillars could use more utility being that they deal only minimal flat damage and aren't expressly controllable and pseudo limited. Personally, his 1 should make a duration pet Vomulyst (that follows you) that is expressly there to help replenish thralls to then be used as fodder for what ever you want. That way Revenant has a way to pump out shield restoration and gain a more robust effect from his 1 overtime in this particular example.

[Stygie]

And? De is not gonna re work him. They have titania nyx and vabuan to do before him. Plus Revenet is decent. He is very much a stans a shoot kinda of frame letting his tralls take agro and his mesemer skin setting up clean headshots. I reallyuse his 1 2 and 3 similarpy to hiw i play my mesa. I stand a shoot and o ky use their 4th as a panic button of sorts. However, you cannot deny revs dps. He has the higest endfame dos becuase he does precentage damage. My build allows me to reave my trall twice or , as it is presently, reave and then spin to hit them twice and insta kill them. (Reave is no longer directional locked you can turn now). All in alk great for enabling gunplay not so much abillies