Jump to content

Ability cooldown(ability spamming problem)


Draknas
 Share

Recommended Posts

Hey guys,

I was thinking about the ability spamming problem. I mean under the "ability spamming", that's the warframe skills, like saryn's first skill or nova's every skills...etc, become boring, nerfed (or insanely buffed). And if you have high energy capacity, you can spam it without any problem, while killing the thousands of mobs. I'm not saying it's bad, just after a time it's kinda boring and that spammed skill or the other skills, become less enjoyable. Like the old Ash 4th ability was strong and spammable, and the players didnt really used his other skills. Energy can be restore easily with "energy restore", tenno ability, wf ability or arcanes (well, im not sure about it, i dont remember clearly). 

So, it would be a bad idea, if they remove the energy cost from the abilities and replace it with cooldown?

The abilities would be more valuable, because of cooldown it will be stronger(buffed) too. The 4th ablities will be on high cooldown or somekind of percent progress what can be increased with kills or the while the time is passes.

What do you think about it guys, is it a bad idea or is it have some kind of future?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Walkampf said:

Don't worry, a few years ago this was actually adressed on a devstream. Steve and Scott both are absolutly against the idea of coodowns.

I have heard that a lot but what exactly were they talking about? "Cooldown" is a very vague term. Anything can be a cooldown and I doupt it is possible to create a game without them. If they were talking about delay timer between activation I want to remember everyone this was added lately:

latest?cb=20181012233852

1 hour ago, Nakrast said:

Horrible idea, probably the worst idea in the history of ideas. honestly.
Feeling like a god, killing enemies with ease, it's the essence of Warframe, if you feel like it's boring, then don't spam, no need to ruin it for everyone else.

Horrible argument. Where is my instantly kill anything in a 100m radius (or better anything in the entire mission) Warframe then? For me interaction and mechanics are the essence of a game if I want to press buttons fast I´d install one of these clicker games and if I only want shiny explosions and action I´d watch matrix .. wait maybe I should create a matrix clicker game. Looks like that´s what everyone wants.

Also your warframe is an useless peace of scrap against Nullifier without your fire stick. I´d rather have my abilities limited by my build, scalings and caps than a random copus guy that let´s you feel like powerless insect.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

vor 16 Minuten schrieb Arcira:

I have heard that a lot but what exactly were they talking about? "Cooldown" is a very vague term. Anything can be a cooldown

A cooldown is the TIME it takes for an ability do 'cool down'.... not 'anything' can be a cooldown, it has to be a timeframe.... it whould not make sense for an ability to have a pineapple as a coodldown....

vor 18 Minuten schrieb Arcira:

I want to remember everyone this was added lately:

Ever heared of the saying 'the exception that proves the rule'? also, it's not an ability. wukongs invulnerability does not have a cooldown, since it has other means to limit it to a certain degree. the same goes for syndicate proccs, those also feature a cooldown before you can charge them again, companion abilities also feature cooldowns. so yeah, the topic is about warframe abilities, not just about 'anything'. good job missing the point. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

1 hour ago, Walkampf said:

A cooldown is the TIME it takes for an ability do 'cool down'....

Wrong, that´s one way you can achieve it which doesn´t mean it´s equal to this. All ravens are black doesn´t mean anything that is black is a raven.

1 hour ago, Walkampf said:

not 'anything' can be a cooldown,

Obviously ... not anything{pron} can be a butterfly as well. But a butterfly could be anything{n}.

1 hour ago, Walkampf said:

it has to be a timeframe....

Right ... a timeframe where you can´t use your stuff. A visual timer on your abilitiy is a common but not the only way to do this. Whether it´s overheat, animation blocking, limiting with regenerative ressources, weapon reload time or activation prevention if you arn´t allowed for more than a set number of instances for an ability (like loki´s invisibility). All of these are nothing but cooldowns. However you can divide between things like artificial, fix or variable for example.

If you google the definition for cooldown it says something like: the time you have to wait until you can use x again.

1 hour ago, Walkampf said:

Ever heared of the saying 'the exception that proves the rule'?

You are aware that´s meant to be ironic? Or can you show me a causal context where this assertion is true?

1 hour ago, Walkampf said:

also, it's not an ability. wukongs invulnerability does not have a cooldown, since it has other means to limit it to a certain degree. the same goes for syndicate proccs, those also feature a cooldown before you can charge them again, companion abilities also feature cooldowns. so yeah, the topic is about warframe abilities, not just about 'anything'. good job missing the point. 

Ironic as well. Why do you put so much effort in examples which arn´t the point for you?

This sounds to me like a scene from a comedy show... we don´t do coooldows here.. but there are... no you don´t get the point we are talking about ability cooldowns .. but kavat ... ye no it´s about warframe abilitiy cooldown.

Essentially every single ability in the game does have a small cooldown. Even a mere Fireball has ~ 1sec delay before you can cast another one. If those timer didn´t exist you´d have a lot of problems like infinite dps. Maybe I should extend the line above with "no long warframe ability cooldowns"

What I want to see isn´t the implementation of cooldowns (because they already exist) rather than new and updated cooldown mechanics.

Edited by Arcira
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Not only have the Devs addressed this by saying they won't do it, they did so because of players asking to have it back.

Cooldowns used to exist in Warframe. They were taken out because they slowed down the game where players would enter combat, use their abilities and then leave combat again until their abilities came back. There was no fluidity between abilities, movement and weapon play, and the 'meta' revolved around frames that could expend all four of their cooldown abilities at once to cause the most damage and then get out again with the least problems.

The balance of Durations, Efficiency and availability of energy became the norm because it then allows DE to balance both the modding and then make abilities more or less effective based on Spam potential.

For example, Ash's Bladestorm was considered too spammable and so they changed it to the 'mark and release' style in order to prevent Spam. Nova's Anti-Matter Drop can cause massive damage, but cannot be spammed unless you have the weapons and placement capable of casting, charging and then crashing the ability in a matter of seconds (possible, but not really sustainable in most missions).

Spam is being dealt with by changing up abilities so that the results of spamming are not as qualitatively effective as the results of tactical use.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, Draknas said:

The abilities would be more valuable, because of cooldown it will be stronger(buffed) too. The 4th ablities will be on high cooldown or somekind of percent progress what can be increased with kills or the while the time is passes.

I just want everyone to keep in mind that unless you in particular are in control of the coding or decision making, statements like these are just conjecture. 

Adding cooldowns is independent of the decision to change the statistical value of its [powers] effects. There is a no rule or law that demands the exchange happen. Adding a cooldown doesn't necessitate a power buff and a number of abilities already have functional cooldowns already. Others are meant to be spammed. To which then there is a whole evaluation on what constitutes what delay of a cooldown. Whether its Ember's 1 or Saryn's 1, or Khora's 1, or Chroma's 1 (etc... so and so forth)… they all behave differently and are valued differently (both internally and communally). Part of the energy system exists as it does (with a surplus of energy sources) is to round out the edges on these evaluations.

In short, if you want cooldowns you need to make you assessment separate from the worth of the abilities because someone else is in charge of deciding the "worth" of the exchange. Limiting usage doesn't automatically make it more valuable; it simply limits a use.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't think it should return as the norm, but I think certain abilities could stand to have a "Covenant Effect" on it.

Add a duration at the end of certain abilities that provides some benefit but prevents it's use again until the timer wears off like Harrow's Covenant. Purely for example, adding a cumulative "Momentum" buff after Rhino Stomp that increases his melee damage for each step he takes until the timer wears off and prevents Stomp use again while it's active.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Thaylien said:

Cooldowns used to exist in Warframe. They were taken out because they slowed down the game where players would enter combat, use their abilities and then leave combat again until their abilities came back. There was no fluidity between abilities, movement and weapon play, and the 'meta' revolved around frames that could expend all four of their cooldown abilities at once to cause the most damage and then get out again with the least problems.

This sounds kinda strange to me. Why wouldn´t you use your weapons in between cooldowns? If anything I´d say the lack of enemy agressivity and life regeneration slows the game down. After year I still don´t get why health orbs got removed without any kind of compensation.

2 hours ago, Thaylien said:

For example, Ash's Bladestorm was considered too spammable and so they changed it to the 'mark and release' style in order to prevent Spam. Nova's Anti-Matter Drop can cause massive damage, but cannot be spammed unless you have the weapons and placement capable of casting, charging and then crashing the ability in a matter of seconds (possible, but not really sustainable in most missions).

While Blade Storm was and probably would be problematic especially because of the inflation of energy regeneration I think the most abusive things arn´t damage rather than cc abilities. A lot of people did endurance runs so cc and defense abilities were much more important. The way it´s working currently your ultimate prevents you from doing other things and the result is you are using what´s most efficient.

Consider this: You´d never use Shuriken (without bandaid augment) because your weapon simply does have more dps. With drastically increased damage you´d never use your weapon because Shuriken have more dps. But if you have a cooldown and increased damage you´d use both. For example every time your abilitiy is aviable or a stronger enemy apears.

It´s impossible to give every single ability an unique purpose and it´s not even necessary. Sometimes I just want a cool looking Fireball which is essentially just a projectile reskin with some variations in damage, aoe, castspeed, etc.

2 hours ago, Thaylien said:

Spam is being dealt with by changing up abilities so that the results of spamming are not as qualitatively effective as the results of tactical use.

Maybe for cc but for dps abilities? By that logic weapon reload should be removed and replaced with a mechanic that lowers the damage the longer you hit an enemy constantly.

In my opinion the more options you have the better. Literally refusing to use a tool lowers your possibilities. Not everything has to be regulated by cooldowns but for some abilitites it would make balancing much easier though . Do you use a hammer for screws just because you don´t like screwdrivers?

Edited by Arcira
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just now, -AoN-CanoLathra- said:
  1. Use max-range Day Equinox
  2. Go to fissure mission
  3. Get Fissure Buff on your Warframe
  4. Press 4
  5. Kill 2 heavy enemies with your weapons
  6. ???
  7. Profit

That´s tooooooo slow I want MORE POWER!! I WANT TO BE A GOD!!!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, Draknas said:

if they remove the energy cost from the abilities and replace it with cooldown? 

We already have cool downs on some abilities & you cant spam abilities that are "in-use".

3 hours ago, Arcira said:

Horrible argument. Where is my instantly kill anything in a 100m radius (or better anything in the entire mission) Warframe then? For me interaction and mechanics are the essence of a game if I want to press buttons fast I´d install one of these clicker games and if I only want shiny explosions and action I´d watch matrix .. wait maybe I should create a matrix clicker game. Looks like that´s what everyone wants. 

 

34 minutes ago, Arcira said:

That´s tooooooo slow I want MORE POWER!! I WANT TO BE A GOD!!! 

This is what the game was sold on.. the only reason you all are complaining is because you play with people online that you didnt choose to play with, if this was borderlands you all wouldn't be screaming to nerf the game.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well some abilities technically have cooldowns since you simply can't use them moments after being casted.

-Volt's 4 Discharge cannot be casted within 3s or so after being used
-Hydroid's Tempest barrage cannot be cast within 1s or so after just being used...

I think they might be there due to technical issues if they simply weren't but a few abilities can't be spammed that easily thanks to some delay between uses which essentially become micro-cooldowns

Edited by ScytodiDaedalus
Link to comment
Share on other sites

This is a sledgehammer approach to a scalpel problem.

Is ability spam a problem? Absolutely. However, cooldowns would be altogether too constricting.

I actually had an interesting discussion with @Teridax68 on the subject of energy economy, and they pointed out that energy itself and cooldowns might be completely unnecessary. Instead, abilities could be designed to be self-limiting (e.g., only X Bastilles can exist at any time).

At the very least, though, we need an energy economy rebalance to ensure that energy never becomes effectively infinite the way it does currently.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, TheRealShade said:

We do have cooldowns, they're called Energy. No energy=no cast, there's your cooldown.

cooldown: The TIME required for a spell or action to reset before it can be used again. If you have 500 maximum energy you can spam the ability (if its possible) many times until you run out from energy. If you dont have energy, then ofc you cant use it again, until you restore it. "No energy=no cast" is not a cooldown... I'm talking about time, not about resource.

Edited by Draknas
Link to comment
Share on other sites

There was a time where I was in favor of cooldowns, and so for the same reasons mentioned in the OP: currently, our ability usage is meant to be gated by Energy, but as it stands the system has fallen into two extremes, where newer players rarely get to use their abilities much at all, and veteran players have so many different ways of giving themselves the Energy they need that costs don't matter. The end result is that higher-level players get to spam powerful abilities all the time when they so wish, allowing us to cheese virtually all content that isn't itself balanced around some equally cheesy mechanic (e.g. selective immunity to abilities, Nullifiers, excessive Energy drain auras, damage caps or immunity, etc.). Our ability usage is out of control, and our current means of gating is dysfunctional, so something needs to change.

In this respect, cooldowns are tempting, because they're used in virtually every other game with abilities, and are direct in how they limit ability uptime: you use an ability, and that means you can't use it again for a period of time. To some extent, we also already have cooldowns on some effects (e.g. Harrow's Covenant, whose crit buff serves as a limiter to the amount of invincibility he can provide, or just the cooldowns applied to some spammed abilities in ESO), so it's not like Warframe is a game without cooldowns either.

Having said that, cooldowns also have a fundamental problem in that they remove player agency, and so without any workaround: once an ability is put on cooldown, unless there's some sort of compensatory mechanic in place, the player will not be able to use that ability during that cooldown no matter what, not even if they really need it. Even if a split-second perfect opportunity arises to cast a certain ability, the player would be unable to make use of it, because their ability got disabled. As shown in ESO already, this really doesn't jive well with players, even when the cooldown in question is only a couple of seconds long. Because of this, whichever mode of gating appears needs to be based on player choice, and should be focused on good gameplay and tradeoffs, rather than hard limits (which exist in the current Energy system as well, since the player generally can't use abilities at zero Energy).

As DiabolusUrsus mentioned, I personally think the best way to go about gating abilities is to impose implicit limitations within them: in the example of Bastille, the player could perhaps cast without restrictions, but deploying a new Bastille would erase the old one. Stuff like health costs or self-debuffs on excessive ability casts could also work as a balancing lever, and could potentially even turn those limitations into an element of choice (e.g. do I really want to cast this ability now at a cost to myself, or wait a little longer?). In many cases, abilities may not even need new limitations placed upon them, because they are already implicitly based on some sort of gameplay other than Energy management (Slash Dash, for example, is already balanced as a dodge/dash/attack combo, regardless of costs). The end result should be a game where the player wouldn't be presented with hard limits, even though their kit would be implicitly limited in such a way that they wouldn't be able to perma-stun everyone, or kill everyone nonstop with a button press.

Edited by Teridax68
Link to comment
Share on other sites

16 hours ago, Arcira said:

This sounds kinda strange to me. Why wouldn´t you use your weapons in between cooldowns?

It is strange, but I'm not saying what the perceived logical response should have been, I'm merely reporting on what actually happened and the reasons it was removed.

16 hours ago, Arcira said:

Maybe for cc but for dps abilities?

Pick a DPS ability, there's a limitation on spam for it. There are a few that are missing, but those are not going to last for long as the changes are still ongoing.

Ability weapons, high damage-over-time casts and so on? Energy Drain, lack of access to other weapons, some of them even put you into a state where almost no other abilities can be used and one of the most powerful needs an Augment mod just to let you move around.

High single-shot damage? Mono-directional or needs to be charged.

Radial damage dealers cap out very quickly and are more often used for the CC at high level.

Any abilities that are not already changed to be more useful when not spammed will be in time. That's the whole point.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

15 hours ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

I actually had an interesting discussion with @Teridax68 on the subject of energy economy, and they pointed out that energy itself and cooldowns might be completely unnecessary. Instead, abilities could be designed to be self-limiting (e.g., only X Bastilles can exist at any time).

At the very least, though, we need an energy economy rebalance to ensure that energy never becomes effectively infinite the way it does currently.

This is an interesting idea I could get behind, but I am still concerned about what we could do for some of Warframe's greatest spam offenders throughout it's history. 

What limitations could we use to prevent spam on area damage abilities like Soundquake, Crush, Peacemaker, Prism, etc. Many of those types of moves have already been changed to have somewhat of a limiting factor over time already but energy was usually the greatest limiting factor in their case. Miasma has been changed to more of a damage over time, but what kind of mechanic could we use to keep Saryn from just recasting it immediately every time the duration stops?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, Thaylien said:

It is strange, but I'm not saying what the perceived logical response should have been, I'm merely reporting on what actually happened and the reasons it was removed.

Sounds like a poor excuse to me still. I think it´s about proper adjustment rather than a fundermental problem. Even though Destiny´s cooldowns are far longer one thing they did achieve is fluid and impactful combat nonetheless.

3 hours ago, Thaylien said:

Pick a DPS ability, there's a limitation on spam for it. There are a few that are missing, but those are not going to last for long as the changes are still ongoing.

Ability weapons, high damage-over-time casts and so on? Energy Drain, lack of access to other weapons, some of them even put you into a state where almost no other abilities can be used and one of the most powerful needs an Augment mod just to let you move around. 

High single-shot damage? Mono-directional or needs to be charged.

Radial damage dealers cap out very quickly and are more often used for the CC at high level. 

Any abilities that are not already changed to be more useful when not spammed will be in time. That's the whole point.

I don´t see where there is a meaningful limitation for any damage ability in the game besides energy drain maybe. And that´s what a lot of people here don´t get. Energy is a kind of cooldown already but a very weak one especially later on because there are so many ways to bypass it´s limitations. In addition it´s very hard to balance between different types of playstyle. There is an alternative to cooldown timers I could imagine though. If they remove any kind of energy regeneration except a fixed flat regeneration rate at least some kind of balance between weapons and abilities would exist. Doesn´t solve the priority problem between abilities though.

Currently the only real anti spam mechanics are immunity/nullifier effects and poor dps values nothing else. And that´s the whole problem in my opinion because making abilities worthless isn´t a fun mechanic at all.

Also restricted access to other things isn´t a limitation rather than the actual problem. The only decision you have to make is what´s most powerfull anything else is pointless to use anyway. I´d argue a lot of people don´t even bother using her secondary weapon because ther primary does more damage (or the other way around). Things like status effect are a nice idea to solve this problem on paper but not even this works currently. And now imagine 4 additional abilities and almost 40 different Warframe. Do you really want to give everything a unique purpose because you can only use one thing at a time?

In PoE there is a similar case (almost no cooldowns). There are some niche builds but most of the time you are using a single damage ability anything else is some kind of aura, mobility or other support spells. The big difference is you arn´t forced to use a specific set of abilities. I bet if you had the choice to remove abilities in favour of other passive mods (like it used to be) you´d never see a Fireball in warframe again unless it get buffed at which point you wouldn´t see an Ember player using his weapon anymore.

Edited by Arcira
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
 Share

×
×
  • Create New...