Ability cooldown(ability spamming problem)

[DiabolusUrsus]

3 hours ago, (PS4)Riko_113 said:

This is an interesting idea I could get behind, but I am still concerned about what we could do for some of Warframe's greatest spam offenders throughout it's history. 

What limitations could we use to prevent spam on area damage abilities like Soundquake, Crush, Peacemaker, Prism, etc. Many of those types of moves have already been changed to have somewhat of a limiting factor over time already but energy was usually the greatest limiting factor in their case. Miasma has been changed to more of a damage over time, but what kind of mechanic could we use to keep Saryn from just recasting it immediately every time the duration stops?

Certainly a reasonable and immediate concern.

My PERSONAL approach as something of a more blanket solution would be diminishing returns on repeat casts (think Atlas' landslide combo, but inverted). In other words, while you can spam those powers as often as you like... Their effects diminish (temporarily) through thoughtless use.

More detailed (and polished) approaches would entail things like Frame-specific resources generated thematically (think Atlas' Rubble, but used exclusively to fuel specific powers). Rather than prevent casting that power without it, the resource would simply be necessary for full efficacy.

At least when it comes to Saryn, I would prefer to change Spores back into more of a debuff (with Viral Proc and minimal damage) where the scaling damage instead builds up Miasma potency.

This would help bring Spores back in line while keeping it useful, and diminish Miasma's sustained kill RATE without really hurting (and perhaps improving) its killing potential.

[(PSN)Ozymandias-13-]

2 minutes ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

My PERSONAL approach as something of a more blanket solution would be diminishing returns on repeat casts (think Atlas' landslide combo, but inverted). In other words, while you can spam those powers as often as you like... Their effects diminish (temporarily) through thoughtless use.

I like that. Kinda warping the Simaris' lockout mechanic in Sanctuary Onslaught for general gameplay while keeping the flow of combat. That could be effective.

4 minutes ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

More detailed (and polished) approaches would entail things like Frame-specific resources generated thematically (think Atlas' Rubble, but used exclusively to fuel specific powers). Rather than prevent casting that power without it, the resource would simply be necessary for full efficacy.

This is great, and could be the solution to most of DE's concerns with passive gameplay since those resources generated could force more active play to ensure you get the best use of your abilities. DE clearly doesn't mind players being insanely powerful if they're putting the effort in.

9 minutes ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

At least when it comes to Saryn, I would prefer to change Spores back into more of a debuff (with Viral Proc and minimal damage) where the scaling damage instead builds up Miasma potency.

This would help bring Spores back in line while keeping it useful, and diminish Miasma's sustained kill RATE without really hurting (and perhaps improving) its killing potential.

I would prefer this too, but I've given up hope of that mistake being rectified. Fingers crossed.

[Birdframe_Prime]

2 hours ago, Arcira said:

Sounds like a poor excuse to me still.

An excuse that caused DE to entirely re-create their entire ability system, introducing a completely new energy mechanic and creating multiple new drops, gear items and later on abilities that directly created energy for us.

I do not think, not for one moment, that this decision was taken lightly by the devs. Their game is too fast, they said, for cooldowns. They want us to have access to any ability whenever we have the energy for it, and not be limited by having to charge it back up again.

2 hours ago, Arcira said:

Energy is a kind of cooldown already

And there's the assumption that shows the flaw in your arguments already. No, energy is not a cooldown, energy is Ammo. We do have ways to regenerate it, but we also have direct pickups that restore fixed amounts, much like any other ammunition you pick up.

But you've missed the point, it's not about anti-spam mechanics, it's about making the abilities so that spamming does not net more positive results than actually making tactical use of them.

Every damage ability in the game is being made (now) and being reworked (at some point in the near future) to make it possible to actually use it better if you think about where you aim it and how you use it first.

Positive reinforcement of good habits is the only way you can clear spam, when the Devs have already ruled out the idea of cooldowns.

So you take a look at, say, Nidus. His one is able to be spammed over and over again, it's perfect for it, most would think. But anyone actually playing Nidus knows that if you press 2 to net your enemies, pulling in as many as possible, then pressing 1 on them once or twice has the same effect as having cast it multiple times on individuals.

Effects, like Saryn's Spores, are infinite as long as you spread them with your other abilities and spam is no longer necessary the way it was before. Former spam abilities, like Energy Vampire are no longer modded for as frequently, because players know that the actual duration doesn't matter and that killing the stunned enemy nets the exact same reward, while not nerfing the duration of Trin's survivability casts.

The point I've been making is that it's not the limitations on spam from the cost, it's the limitations on spam by making players want to use them when they should.

[Batwing]

Not for it in the slightest. Being able to use my abilities more freely is what makes it funner for me and a lot others I'm sure.

I'm not here to argue about it cause most of the replies I've seen to others people's points is " not good enough for me" so just giving my response as any kind of hard cool down system would take a huge part of what makes Warframe Warframe away.

[Arcira]

1 hour ago, Thaylien said:

And there's the assumption that shows the flaw in your arguments already. No, energy is not a cooldown, energy is Ammo. We do have ways to regenerate it, but we also have direct pickups that restore fixed amounts, much like any other ammunition you pick up.

Energy and ammo are cooldown mechanics. To be excact the time where you don´t have any. By definition cooldown is the time where you can´t use your abilities, weapons, etc. Nowhere does it say it has to be a fix amount of time or even a timer itself.

1 hour ago, Thaylien said:

But you've missed the point, it's not about anti-spam mechanics, it's about making the abilities so that spamming does not net more positive results than actually making tactical use of them.

I didn´t miss the point in fact I mentioned several possibilities and there problems. This one is just another anti spam mechanic because the point of spamming in the first place is removed. However it´s a totally legit method but very effortful and doesn´t restrict the use of other mechanics.

1 hour ago, Thaylien said:

Every damage ability in the game is being made (now) and being reworked (at some point in the near future) to make it possible to actually use it better if you think about where you aim it and how you use it first.

Not really what actually happens is most of them are changed them to some kind of buff or support tool. There are less and less real alternatives to gunplay. You have much more possibilities to restrict utility but it´s much more difficult for pure dps abilities though.

1 hour ago, Thaylien said:

So you take a look at, say, Nidus. His one is able to be spammed over and over again, it's perfect for it, most would think. But anyone actually playing Nidus knows that if you press 2 to net your enemies, pulling in as many as possible, then pressing 1 on them once or twice has the same effect as having cast it multiple times on individuals.

Effects, like Saryn's Spores, are infinite as long as you spread them with your other abilities and spam is no longer necessary the way it was before. Former spam abilities, like Energy Vampire are no longer modded for as frequently, because players know that the actual duration doesn't matter and that killing the stunned enemy nets the exact same reward, while not nerfing the duration of Trin's survivability casts.

I dont really play Nidus but from the descriptions I´d asume the main purpose of Virulence and Larva isn´t damage but some kind of utility. Also using Larva is more efficientbut doesn´t prevent you from spamming. A real anti spam mechainc would be if a target could only be affected a specific amount of times and if the target is affected by Larva you get the maximum amount instantly.

For Saryn and Trinity these mechanics actually prove my point. Similar to your NIdus example those kind of abilities are just more effective (essentially the next step from spamming) and the reason things like Arbration drones exist. The point isn´t to relieve your forfinger but decrease power (especially from cc) to remove the purpose of immunities.

1 hour ago, Thaylien said:

The point I've been making is that it's not the limitations on spam from the cost, it's the limitations on spam by making players want to use them when they should.

That´s a similar thing like soft caps you could go further but most of the time there isn´t really any reason to do so. Pretended freedom of choice.

Edited November 21, 2018 by Arcira

[Birdframe_Prime]

2 hours ago, Arcira said:

Not really what actually happens is most of them are changed them to some kind of buff or support tool.

I'm sorry, but you're looking at this game from a perspective that I just can't see.

Damage abilities in this game are not turned into Utility in any way. Some have a utility function to them, but if you're going to put it that way, then yeah, every ability is a Utility cast.

We are going to walk around and around the same point until one of us gets angry with the other. And it doesn't matter in the long run.

What I've told you is what we've been told in turn at the time by DE. The actual Plan, capital P plan. DE are changing abilities to make them more tactical, not less damaging or less fun, just ones that work better when you think about the results and cast them in conjunction with other effects, and Cooldowns were deliberately removed both because they slow the game down and because people were finding ways to play that were not the intended method of abilities and gunplay as balanced alternatives to each other.

The problem of Immunities, for example, is not because of Spam. It is, in fact, because the ability combos that we can create are literally too powerful. By combining our utility debuff casts, our damage casts deal with enemies almost infinitely. CC is just how we stay alive long enough to put that damage down.

Warframe's scaling is a false power-fantasy. You look at other games and attempting a level 30 mission when you're level 20 is either a serious struggle or functionally impossible. Warframes reach level 30 and then can take on level 100-200 without actually any real trouble, and that's because the actual game scaling of enemy power versus our power went out the window long ago.

It leaves us with either two choices; nerf the Warframes, or completely rework the entire game's handling of enemies, scaling, damage, functional handling of hordes and so on. While working on either of those two functions, though, the simplest method of curbing our overwhelming ability power is to simply invent a couple of enemies that grant immunity to abilities and force us to use weapons as utility instead.

But back on topic, if you're looking to prevent Spam, cooldowns aren't it chief, they were tried and discarded like the Stamina Bar and Parkour 1.0.

[Arcira]

 

11 hours ago, Thaylien said:

What I've told you is what we've been told in turn at the time by DE. The actual Plan, capital P plan. DE are changing abilities to make them more tactical, not less damaging or less fun, just ones that work better when you think about the results and cast them in conjunction with other effects, and Cooldowns were deliberately removed both because they slow the game down and because people were finding ways to play that were not the intended method of abilities and gunplay as balanced alternatives to each other.

The problem of Immunities, for example, is not because of Spam. It is, in fact, because the ability combos that we can create are literally too powerful. By combining our utility debuff casts, our damage casts deal with enemies almost infinitely. CC is just how we stay alive long enough to put that damage down.

Thats the same thing. If I change a spam ability into something I have to activate only once in a while the actual problem isnt fixed. Its more like a qol improvement because the real problem isnt that ability combinations can be powerful its (as you said) about almost infinitely chaining (spamming) them.

11 hours ago, Thaylien said:

Warframe's scaling is a false power-fantasy. You look at other games and attempting a level 30 mission when you're level 20 is either a serious struggle or functionally impossible. Warframes reach level 30 and then can take on level 100-200 without actually any real trouble, and that's because the actual game scaling of enemy power versus our power went out the window long ago.

There are 2 reasons why there isnt any real difference in difficulty.

1.) cc is absolute, which is a problem in a lot of games in my opinion but most of them handle cc limitations in another way. And infinit cc is incontestable. If an enemy doesnt have immunities there is literally nothing he can do whether he is lv 1 or lv 1000. But instead of some kind of rpg scaling, cap or whatever mechanic there is just another absolute counter mechanic to anything that has the tag "ability" whether its a problematic one or not.

2.) Weapon damage power creep. More a "soft" reason because if you cant kill enemies in a reasonable amount of time it isnt efficient anymore. However against a lot of enemies you cant even tell whether he is lv1, lv50 or even lv100 because they are one shot or die almost instantly.

11 hours ago, Thaylien said:

It leaves us with either two choices; nerf the Warframes, or completely rework the entire game's handling of enemies, scaling, damage, functional handling of hordes and so on. While working on either of those two functions, though, the simplest method of curbing our overwhelming ability power is to simply invent a couple of enemies that grant immunity to abilities and force us to use weapons as utility instead.

But back on topic, if you're looking to prevent Spam, cooldowns aren't it chief, they were tried and discarded like the Stamina Bar and Parkour 1.0.

There are definitely more than 2 possibilities even without cooldowns for example increasing cc resistance each time an enemy is affected or scaling resitances and bunch of things I cant even think about currently for sure. Its a question about how much effort you are willing to put into a system. A cooldown timer can be quite efficient in this regard and offers the opportunity to balance individual abilities.

Id like to see changes for armor and damage scaling but I dont see a direct correlation to this problem. Sure there would be a shift in difficulty and some adjustments need to be done but reinventing the whole game is definitely over the top. For a lot of Warframes it wouldnt even make any difference at all either because cooldowns dont make sense for them or they relay more on there base stats than abilities anyway.

And yes, sometimes immunities are inevitable but it should be the last tool in your arsenal when anything else doesnt work anymore.

Edited November 22, 2018 by Arcira