What are you looking for from end game?

[SenariousNex]

2 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

Maybe we are giv ... about Warframe.

I disagree about the meta thing, I would not even bring corrosive proj/covert lethality into this. I think the game offers countless build possibilities to do that sort of content. Metas are far more evident in Eidolon hunts, because Eidolons are immune to almost everything so the possibilities of efficient teams are very low (make 'em immune to chroma's/rhinos dmg buff and volt shields and harrows 4 can no longer stop mag proc, and there you go no more metas). It's true that meta team comps will always emerge to optimize efficiency, but that is just a nature of people's herd mentality. 

[o0Despair0o]

Less nerfs.

[Loza03]

2 minutes ago, SenariousNex said:

I disagree about the meta thing, I would not even bring corrosive proj/covert lethality into this. I think the game offers countless build possibilities to do that sort of content. Metas are far more evident in Eidolon hunts, because Eidolons are immune to almost everything so the possibilities of efficient teams are very low (make 'em immune to chroma's/rhinos dmg buff and volt shields and harrows 4 can no longer stop mag proc, and there you go no more metas). It's true that meta team comps will always emerge to optimize efficiency, but that is just a nature of people's herd mentality. 

No, the game really doesn't. Again - oneshots. Even right now, levels 100-ish can wipe put a good half of the frames currently in a second or two, except with very specific setups for those frames. Of course, that good half are the ones on the squishier side so it makes sense, but now consider that at ten times that level, at level 1000+ as you suggest.

Lets consider regular Terra Plasmor Crewman, who have a base damage of 25. The formula for damage scaling is Base Damage * (1+(Current Level-Base level)^1.55 X 0.015). Assuming that, like all non-elite units, the base level is 1, the damage they'll deal is 16,749 damage per shot, which far exceeds the EHP of most tanks, at least if my calculations are correct.

Now lets look at another enemy type from conventional tileset gameplay. According to the Wiki, the lowest base Damage for elite lancers is 10 and the highest is 30 and have a base level of 15, so running that through the same formula, Elite Lancers would deal around 6,555 damage per shot at minimum and 19,665 damage per shot. Again, exceeding the EHP of the vast majority of setups if I haven't messed up my numbers, especially considering these attacks are hitscan.

So, yeah, the meta for endurance runs that prioritises staying in a single defensive position for the whole game would be the only option.

[SenariousNex]

36 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

No, the game really doesn't. Again - oneshots. Even right now... be the only option.

Did you account for the fact that enemies stop scaling in damage after a certain level? 

[Loza03]

7 minutes ago, SenariousNex said:

Did you account for the fact that enemies stop scaling in damage after a certain level? 

According to the Wiki, they do not. Do you have a source for this?

[SenariousNex]

13 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

According to the Wiki, they do not. Do you have a source for this?

I looked and for the life of me cannot find where I heard this from. 

[Loza03]

1 hour ago, SenariousNex said:

I looked and for the life of me cannot find where I heard this from. 

I did some digging myself and I found a thread earlier this year asking for a damage cap. You probably saw the thread and subconsciously registered it as a fact. Don't sweat it, it's a normal quirk of the human mind to generalise things we half-see like that.

That said, it seems that Warframe doesn't have a damage cap, so enemies would indeed one-shot most frames at those levels with a single bullet.

[MidnightRedDeath]

On 2018-11-24 at 11:29 AM, moostar95 said:

Railjack is what veterans needs now. Seeing that level of coop in the tenno con trailer is what ive been wanting for a long time. ESO is just not it at all.

A lot of the newer content has been labeled as "end game" and such but has yet to deliver. They keep catering to the new players and it has been that way for 5 years no sadly. Some vets just login for the daily reward and read update and log back off. 

[MidnightRedDeath]

5 minutes ago, moostar95 said:

Im now at the point where im not on at all. My feelings for the game have really changed for the past few years. Inconsistent warframe reworks, and updates not being relevant to endgame players. Im happy for the game and the good press its getting. But some vets and i are not feeling satisfied at de for not  fixing some of the older issues that plagues this game. 

once you have the endgame build you were after, there is nothing to try it on. Some warframe reworks have been hit or miss like ash ult. It used to be really good but now I don't even use it because to me its a waste of my energy and that isn't what a ultimate should feel like. Yes I am glad warframe is growing but if you don't have a way too keep the players that have played the most then your new players will eventually stop playing as well. 

[Legion-Shields]

What I really want is for DE to go down the Railjack rabbit hole until Warframe becomes a cross between Star Citizen and Eve Online.

[MidnightRedDeath]

Just now, Legion-Shields said:

What I really want is for DE to go down the Railjack rabbit hole until Warframe becomes a cross between Star Citizen and Eve Online.

xD tbh i was thinking that is where it is heading too 

[Kobrakai]

End game for me is reaching the point where I'm strong enough that all of the content becomes trivial so that I can move onto other games while waiting for new content. 

The opposite of end game would be difficult scaling content that couldn't be easily beaten with the items available in the game. That would be frustrating as hell and I would lose any motivation to play if that's what was waiting for me at the end.

[(XBOX)PhoenixReviving]

It looks to me like DE is also trying to figure out what end game activities would actually look like. So far we've seen raids, eidolons, ESO, arbitrations, and (soon) the orb mothers (if those will actually qualify as end game - we will see). Railjack is also in the future.

There's a trend here - see how many of those activities have dropped kinda recently, relative to the life of the game? Based on this, I think that DE is aware of the problem with end game and trying to fix it. The issue is that they haven't quite nailed it, at least not for everyone. Eidolons? Those were hard until everyone figured out what weapons and frames worked best (the meta). Now, the only challenge is the time limit, and I find the race against an artificial day/night cycle to be merely irritating. ESO? The KPS requirement is so high that it's basically a saryn-fest. Not that it isn't occasionally fun and useful as a game mode - focus and xp gains are nice, and it drops some unique weapons - but personally, I'd rather eat glass than spend any significant amount of time actually grinding it. It's insanely boring to me. 

Arbitrations? I actually like them, mainly because I still need endo and I find the gameplay tweak of the drones to be engaging. Many people don't need the rewards, though, and find them boring as well. However, I think they're a step in the right direction with the one-life mechanic, the defensive drones, and the scaling. 

End game isn't simply upping the enemy level. I once read someone suggest a starchart 2.0 - where you get to grind out the starchart the second time, except enemy levels start out at a higher initial value. I still see people suggesting similar things in other contexts - endless defense/survival/whatever with enemies starting at level 100,110,150 - but that's not going to work as a satisfying and replayable endgame. Why? Because of warframe's player base. We are all about optimizing the grind, and we have a ton of experience doing so. Higher enemy levels? We'll create a meta and blow through the content. 

For that reason, I think DE will need to move toward more complex and engaging mechanics, instead of bullet sponges or enemy level increases. This may not completely solve the problem, but it should at least help. I still enjoy arbitrations and tricaps because of the unique mechanics, but I hate ESO because it's pretty much the exact same gameplay as a normal survival, except for my inability to use my abilities as I please. 

 

[Loza03]

21 minutes ago, (XB1)PhoenixReviving said:

It looks to me like DE is also trying to figure out what end game activities would actually look like. So far we've seen raids, eidolons, ESO, arbitrations, and (soon) the orb mothers (if those will actually qualify as end game - we will see). Railjack is also in the future.

There's a trend here - see how many of those activities have dropped kinda recently, relative to the life of the game? Based on this, I think that DE is aware of the problem with end game and trying to fix it. The issue is that they haven't quite nailed it, at least not for everyone. Eidolons? Those were hard until everyone figured out what weapons and frames worked best (the meta). Now, the only challenge is the time limit, and I find the race against an artificial day/night cycle to be merely irritating. ESO? The KPS requirement is so high that it's basically a saryn-fest. Not that it isn't occasionally fun and useful as a game mode - focus and xp gains are nice, and it drops some unique weapons - but personally, I'd rather eat glass than spend any significant amount of time actually grinding it. It's insanely boring to me. 

Arbitrations? I actually like them, mainly because I still need endo and I find the gameplay tweak of the drones to be engaging. Many people don't need the rewards, though, and find them boring as well. However, I think they're a step in the right direction with the one-life mechanic, the defensive drones, and the scaling. 

End game isn't simply upping the enemy level. I once read someone suggest a starchart 2.0 - where you get to grind out the starchart the second time, except enemy levels start out at a higher initial value. I still see people suggesting similar things in other contexts - endless defense/survival/whatever with enemies starting at level 100,110,150 - but that's not going to work as a satisfying and replayable endgame. Why? Because of warframe's player base. We are all about optimizing the grind, and we have a ton of experience doing so. Higher enemy levels? We'll create a meta and blow through the content. 

For that reason, I think DE will need to move toward more complex and engaging mechanics, instead of bullet sponges or enemy level increases. This may not completely solve the problem, but it should at least help. I still enjoy arbitrations and tricaps because of the unique mechanics, but I hate ESO because it's pretty much the exact same gameplay as a normal survival, except for my inability to use my abilities as I please. 

 

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Even DE seems to have realised this in the long run. Consider Fortuna dropping in mini-bosses that counter our CC and have fairly meaty HP, but more notably unique attack patterns that force different strategies when dealing with them alongside regular enemies. A full-melee miniboss that forces constant movement, a machine-gun packing mid-range fighter that requires you get away and a ranged area control bombarder makes you have to carefully consider positioning and tactical options like cover or the high ground.

Alone, they're pretty easy but they make things actually quite hectic alongside the regular enemies. These already make Fortuna a fair bit more challenging than anything on the starchart. Even PoE has Tusks with meaningful abilities like the Mortar attacks or jetpacks to send them careening across the battlefield at a similar speed to us. I know that a rework for all enemies to give them the potential to do stuff like this is a bit of a pipe dream since it'd take so much time, but I can dream damnit.

[(XBOX)PhoenixReviving]

You know what I'd like to see? Player-chosen modifiers. Something like arbitrations, with rotating buffs, enemies, and mode, but with the ability for the player to choose a sortie mechanic to add in. Or even have a single rotating sortie challenge in the mix. You could choose to play without it, but the rewards increase if you take on the additional challenge. An elemental damage infested defense? Corpus with slash? Interception with energy reduction? Grineer with reinforcements, so you get absolutely swarmed with bombards after a few waves? 

And what about buffing warframe stats other than power strength? Who'd like to see duration or range in there? Those things would make me want to tweak my builds before going in, and play the frame differently. 

My ideas focus on changing the way I approach a mission. Arbitrations are a step in the right direction, and I'd love to see DE run with this kind of idea. 

[DreisterDino]

Am 24.11.2018 um 18:29 schrieb moostar95:

Railjack is what veterans needs now. Seeing that level of coop in the tenno con trailer is what ive been wanting for a long time. ESO is just not it at all.

Wouldnt put too high hopes on that 😉

Trailer looked great, but you could probably create a trailer like that about the Kuva fortress Assault mission aswell.

 

for me, the worst case scenario would be that:

- its just an easy, slightly longer sabotage mission that you can rush through like any other basic mission in Warframe

- the coop aspects are there, but it wont be more than shown in the trailer and the only real interaction between players is "ok hack the door now"

- none of the enemies is a real threat, stuff like extinguishing fire is just there and as challenging as mining a gem^^

 

best case scenario:

- the mission doesnt have to be super hard, but everyone should be at least doing his tasks if you dont want to fail (this means, you can fail!)

- the interaction between players must be timed well, so you really have to coordinate your team. I know many people didnt like the Raids, and they surely had flaws, but the one thing i liked there and what kept us playing was that you actually have to talk to each other every now and then to proceed through certain stages (or at least have to pay attention to what the other players are doing). It felt like we were really playing together and each of us had different tasks, while in most missions you can completly ignore all other players. Yes, raids havent been really difficult, especially if you were running with Meta-setups, but even then you had to talk or pay attention to get to the next stage.

- there is a variety of some missions and tasks, so you dont just speed through one mission over and over again

- 8 players !!! please 😄 this was the best part of raids, hell even 6 would be nice!

 

So for me, Railjack doesnt have to be "Endgame" in terms of really high difficulty, but it should be designed in a way that if you dont pay attention to what the other players are doing, you can fail the mission. Because, if the mission is so easy that you cant even fail because enemies are no threat at all and because there is no "real" interaction between players - yes it might look nice in a trailer and it the first few rounds, but after a few runs all the shiny effects wont matter anymore and some stuff like flying through space will just feel like a time-stretcher that doesnt add anything of value to the mission.

 

Raids had lots of flaws, the gameplay was boring as hell at certain passages, not many people played it because of weird mechanics and so on.

BUT, there has been stuff that made Raids enjoyable for some people, like the true feeling of coordinating your team and really playing together.

If Railjack manages to do that while offering better gameplay, it could become awesome.

 

Edit: And all this had nice side-effects, for example: I really got to know some people from the clan/alliance because we actually met and talked to each other, and some of those are the players i play with until today for the most part and that keep me enjoying the game.

Edited November 26, 2018 by DreisterDino

[MidnightRedDeath]

On 2018-11-26 at 3:14 PM, DreisterDino said:

And all this had nice side-effects, for example: I really got to know some people from the clan/alliance because we actually met and talked to each other, and some of those are the players i play with until today for the most part and that keep me enjoying the game.

yea, it would have to feel co operative for it to be multiplayer. Around 95% of content is solo able and at the time raids were the only thing that you couldn't do alone. Even Eidolons you can do solo. 

[seprent]

hmm personally engame wise hmmm well why not races ? like in kotor swoop racing but for K Drive just go AFAP  in a straight line on a variety of themed maps and compete for who can do it the fastest 

maybe fishing tournaments  hmm might be boring now that i think about it some people dont like fishing 

ummm maybe a shooting contest that tests various things like accuracy speed and such 

playable komi not really end game but id be all over that and you could play other people so who knows might become like a sport like chess is hosted by other players for rewards 

idk really im looking at conclave tbh and seeing how it could be entertaining since since people are not all that interested in directly fighting each other why not have competitions for a leader board and alot of these could be open ended to player held so the rewards are something players pick to put into the reward pool kinda like poker its your own stuff plus other players stuff in the pot

 

[MidnightRedDeath]

On 2018-12-01 at 10:44 PM, seprent said:

hmm personally engame wise hmmm well why not races ? like in kotor swoop racing but for K Drive just go AFAP  in a straight line on a variety of themed maps and compete for who can do it the fastest 

maybe fishing tournaments  hmm might be boring now that i think about it some people dont like fishing 

ummm maybe a shooting contest that tests various things like accuracy speed and such 

playable komi not really end game but id be all over that and you could play other people so who knows might become like a sport like chess is hosted by other players for rewards 

idk really im looking at conclave tbh and seeing how it could be entertaining since since people are not all that interested in directly fighting each other why not have competitions for a leader board and alot of these could be open ended to player held so the rewards are something players pick to put into the reward pool kinda like poker its your own stuff plus other players stuff in the pot

 

Minigames would be a cool filler like how we have flappy zephr and frame fighter but idk if that would be good as a whole. I know I wouldn't play them that often. Not saying that it wouldn't be a great idea to pass the time especially if it had decent rewards for playing.