"Robotic" armor type? Slash dmg on Raknoid

[fjorn_lodbrok]

https://streamable.com/p4981

level 155 Raknoid takes 297 slash damage per tick 

edit:"I stripped 100% of the Raknoid's armor, my slash ticks went from 297 dmg to 7152, slash is not bypassing armor as it should be"

level 155 heavy gunner takes a massive 28610 damage

Am I missing something here? Is this a bug or working as intended?

If you look at the enemy info on the codex its armor type is listed as "Robotic", its neither ferrite nor alloy, whats up with that? Same seems to apply to hyenas, they take almost no damage from slash.

 

 

Edited November 22, 2018 by fjorn_lodbrok
refined some of the information

[Firetempest]

https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/Damage#Corpus

Slash does -25% damage to corpus robots.

Grineer has -15% resistance in armor but its also +25% damage to clone flesh when the armor value is decreased.

the doubling of robot health type as armor might make that -50% slash. I don't think I've seen the same health type doubled as armor before.

Its base armor value is 200 decreasing incoming damage by 40% in its wikipage. so its 155 version is pretty high with its overall slash reduction.

Heavy gunner base armor is higher, but you are using corrosive that is highly effective to ferrite.

Edited November 22, 2018 by Firetempest

[fjorn_lodbrok]

24 minutes ago, Firetempest said:

https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/Damage#Corpus

Slash does -25% damage to corpus robots.

Grineer has -15% resistance in armor but its also +25% damage to clone flesh when the armor value is decreased.

the doubling of robot health type as armor might make that -50% slash. I don't think I've seen the same health type doubled as armor before.

Its base armor value is 200 decreasing incoming damage by 40% in its wikipage. so its 155 version is pretty high with its overall slash reduction.

Heavy gunner base armor is higher, but you are using corrosive that is highly effective to ferrite.

That does not add up. The -25% damage resistance that comes from robotic health type is not supposed to work if the enemy's armor is up, for instance, thats the exact reason why you need to strip the hemocyte armor if you wanna deal corrosive damage to it as opposed to killing it with radiation.

I did some further testing, stripped 100% of the Raknoid's armor, my slash ticks went from 297 dmg to 7152 dmg. That is a huge difference that cannot be explained by -25% slash resistance providade by it's armor.

This has to be somehow related to this doubling of robot health as armor, its like slash wasn't programmed to work/bypass this type of "armor" because it isn't meant to exist in the first place.

If they really intended to create a new armor type why not call it something else instead of confusing us by using the health name twice and making slash completly useless in the process?

[Ailyene]

I'm getting similar results from Ghouls who have Cloned Flesh as both Armor and Health types (Weak vs. Slash).  Slash proc damage is getting reduced to almost nothing on them as well in high level tests.

OP seems correct, its like having a non-standard armor type is the issue.

 

Edit:

Tried vs. Hyena and it turns out the OV ones I can find are just plain immune to status effects.

Jackal and Kyta Raknoid though have special mechanics that negate Slash procs and divert Toxin damage to their shields until the shields are destroyed.

Edited November 22, 2018 by Ailyene
More testing

[taiiat]

yes, some Enemies are crunching math really hard to make other Damage Types be relevant and even desired.

take a gander at the Kyta Raknoid even, which including its Overshields on top of its other features, spits in the face of casual eyes closed Modding.

53 minutes ago, fjorn_lodbrok said:

That does not add up. The -25% damage resistance that comes from robotic health type is not supposed to work if the enemy's armor is up

incorrect. while there may be some interesting stuff going on in the backend, allow me to explain how Damage is applied to Enemies:

 

let's go with....a Heavy Gunner to keep it simple.
your Damage hits the Armor of the Enemy. it is increased or decreased by Damage Type Modifiers, then divided by the Damage Reduction of the Armor.
next, the Damage after passing through the Armor, hits the Health where it is increased or decreased by Damage Type Modifiers again, of the Health.
finally, the Enemy takes the resulting Damage value to their Health.

so in play, that can be viewed as Slash Damage passes through -15% on the Ferrite Armor, then is reduced by Armor Damage Reduction, then passes through +25% on the Health.

[LightZodiac]

So slash procs can't rekt everything?

 

I'm OK with that.

[NaoEthelia]

Robotics are by default immune to Slash Proc, I thought.

[fjorn_lodbrok]

24 minutes ago, taiiat said:

yes, some Enemies are crunching math really hard to make other Damage Types be relevant and even desired.

take a gander at the Kyta Raknoid even, which including its Overshields on top of its other features, spits in the face of casual eyes closed Modding.

incorrect. while there may be some interesting stuff going on in the backend, allow me to explain how Damage is applied to Enemies:

 

let's go with....a Heavy Gunner to keep it simple.
your Damage hits the Armor of the Enemy. it is increased or decreased by Damage Type Modifiers, then divided by the Damage Reduction of the Armor.
next, the Damage after passing through the Armor, hits the Health where it is increased or decreased by Damage Type Modifiers again, of the Health.
finally, the Enemy takes the resulting Damage value to their Health.

so in play, that can be viewed as Slash Damage passes through -15% on the Ferrite Armor, then is reduced by Armor Damage Reduction, then passes through +25% on the Health.

I don't know exactly how modifiers interact with every single damage type but I can tell you this much, that -25% Slash resistance provided by the heavy gunner's ferrite armor does not reduce my slash damage procs one bit.

With or without armor I do the same slash proc damage to any heavy gunner, I assume the same should apply to the spider however it doesn't because the "robotic armor" is mitigating slash damage to an insane degree when it really shouldn't.

I also ran some tests on kuva bombards. With or without armor the slash damage proc is exactly the same.

Edited November 22, 2018 by fjorn_lodbrok

[Ailyene]

23 minutes ago, NaoEthelia said:

Robotics are by default immune to Slash Proc, I thought.

Robotics are effected by slash procs just like anything else, its never made much sense how they 'bleed' but they do.

Feels like the new mobs have some intentionally designed counters to Slash proc tactics though.

 

There also seems to be some confusion on Slash procs from the posts here. 

Slash procs are their own damage type usually called: "Finisher\True Damage" and ignore all health type modifiers and armor, none of them matter against it usually.

Edited November 22, 2018 by Ailyene

[fjorn_lodbrok]

3 minutes ago, Ailyene said:

Robotics are effected by slash procs just like anything else, its never made much sense how they 'bleed' but they do.

Feels like the new mobs have some intentionally designed counters to Slash proc tactics though.

 

There also seems to be some confusion on Slash procs from the posts here. 

Slash procs are their own damage type usually called: "Finisher\True Damage" and ignore all health type modifiers and armor, none of them matter against it usually.

Maybe they bleed oil and the toxin applied to them is acid? Thats how I always made sense of it in my head.

"Slash procs are their own damage type usually called: "Finisher\True Damage" and ignore all health type modifiers and armor, none of them matter against it usually."

Thank you. It's good to have a solid confirmation about that, beyond what I have seen testing it myself.

Edited November 22, 2018 by fjorn_lodbrok

[----Legacy----]

7 minutes ago, Ailyene said:

Robotics are effected by slash procs just like anything else, its never made much sense how they 'bleed' but they do.

When machines lose liquids, be it lubricants, coolant, fuel, etc. It doesn't matter if it's because someone is draining from a container with the purpose of making some maintenance or because some damage made it leak, it's also called "bleeding". So yup, it makes sense for a machine to bleed.

[--RV--Dopekoke]

damage over time effect that deals 35% of the source's innate damage per tick for 7 ticks over 6 seconds.  basically it means that the tick dmg itself will bypass armor but it depends on how much dmg you did in the first place since it will take 35% of that.

Edited November 22, 2018 by Dopekoke

[Zsword]

12 minutes ago, Dopekoke said:

damage over time effect that deals 35% of the source's innate damage per tick for 7 ticks over 6 seconds.  basically it means that the tick dmg itself will bypass armor but it depends on how much dmg you did in the first place since it will take 35% of that.

'Source's innate damage' means the damage before factoring in resistances/weaknesses.

[--RV--Dopekoke]

1 minute ago, Zsword said:

'Source's innate damage' means the damage before factoring in resistances/weaknesses.

in reference when op stripped armor.

[GPrime96]

4 hours ago, fjorn_lodbrok said:

https://streamable.com/p4981

level 155 Raknoid takes 297 slash damage per tick 

edit:"I stripped 100% of the Raknoid's armor, my slash ticks went from 297 dmg to 7152, slash is not bypassing armor as it should be"

level 155 heavy gunner takes a massive 28610 damage

Am I missing something here? Is this a bug or working as intended?

If you look at the enemy info on the codex its armor type is listed as "Robotic", its neither ferrite nor alloy, whats up with that? Same seems to apply to hyenas, they take almost no damage from slash.

 

 

The Raknoids can be Tanky. I remember fighting those Raknoids at lvl 60 - 80+ and my Tigris Prime was using shell after shell until i managed to kill it finally. The same Tigris Prime that can one shot lvl 125 Bombards and Napalms. I wondered if those Guys have a lot of health but i guess they have a high DR.

[Ailyene]

30 minutes ago, Dopekoke said:

damage over time effect that deals 35% of the source's innate damage per tick for 7 ticks over 6 seconds.  basically it means that the tick dmg itself will bypass armor but it depends on how much dmg you did in the first place since it will take 35% of that.

This sounds like you are saying that it scales off of the actual damage done when this isn't actually how it works; I do the same slash proc damage on a level 160 Bombard as I do on a level 15 Bombard.

It takes the raw slash damage number (post-Base damage mods) and works from that, doesn't matter even if the damage done was reduced all the way to 1.

Like I hit for 5 damage on a level 160 Bombard with my Soma Prime but the slash proc still hits for 117.

 

Its still modified by body part modifier/critical level/critical damage/buffs/debuffs/ect. though which is the reason why in the opening post the H.Gunner still takes 4x the slash proc damage even after the Scyto got armor stripped (Raknoids take reduced damage across the majority of their bodies).

[--RV--Dopekoke]

unmodded Dread, lvl 20 Scyto Raknoid.  Waited for a crit hit and a slash proc for a bleed effect.

Now with no armor, same thing, waited for a crit hit with a bleed effect.

you can see 75 vs 140.

Edited November 22, 2018 by Dopekoke

[--RV--Dopekoke]

5 minutes ago, Ailyene said:

This sounds like you are saying that it scales off of the actual damage done when this isn't actually how it works; I do the same slash proc damage on a level 160 Bombard as I do on a level 15 Bombard.

It takes the raw slash damage number (post-Base damage mods) and works from that, doesn't matter even if the damage done was reduced all the way to 1.

Like I hit for 5 damage on a level 160 Bombard with my Soma Prime but the slash proc still hits for 117.

 

Its still modified by body part modifier/critical level/critical damage/buffs/debuffs/ect. though which is the reason why in the opening post the H.Gunner still takes 4x the slash proc damage even after the Scyto got armor stripped (Raknoids take reduced damage across the majority of their bodies).

corpus vs grineer, flesh vs robotic, theres a difference.

[JohnKable]

51 minutes ago, Dopekoke said:

corpus vs grineer, flesh vs robotic, theres a difference.

if we are talking about the slash procs (not damage) then no, there hasnt been any difference so far. Looks like those raknoids have some innate damage reduction bound to their armor that reduces even slash procs.
Maybe its intended, maybe it isnt. We dont know, but for sure they dont get slash procs like everything else

[--RV--Dopekoke]

12 minutes ago, JohnKable said:

if we are talking about the slash procs (not damage) then no, there hasnt been any difference so far. Looks like those raknoids have some innate damage reduction bound to their armor that reduces even slash procs.
Maybe its intended, maybe it isnt. We dont know, but for sure they dont get slash procs like everything else

lets go back what i said before

 

1 hour ago, Dopekoke said:

in reference when op stripped armor.

and even further back
 

2 hours ago, Dopekoke said:

damage over time effect that deals 35% of the source's innate damage per tick for 7 ticks over 6 seconds.  basically it means that the tick dmg itself will bypass armor but it depends on how much dmg you did in the first place since it will take 35% of that.

So lets all combine what happened with op and what I said.

Op was doing more dmg when there was no armor vs with armor because, with armor, the slash tick was dependent on the dmg done along with the dm reduction it had, but when you take off the armor, no damage reduction. etc etc etc, and now we are here.  Where I provided proof time and time again against the enemy op has stated instead of making a comparison against a heavy gunner or a bombard, which is not the enemy in question.

6 hours ago, fjorn_lodbrok said:

https://streamable.com/p4981

level 155 Raknoid takes 297 slash damage per tick 

edit:"I stripped 100% of the Raknoid's armor, my slash ticks went from 297 dmg to 7152, slash is not bypassing armor as it should be"

level 155 heavy gunner takes a massive 28610 damage

Am I missing something here? Is this a bug or working as intended?

If you look at the enemy info on the codex its armor type is listed as "Robotic", its neither ferrite nor alloy, whats up with that? Same seems to apply to hyenas, they take almost no damage from slash.

 

 

Notice how he put in edit, i stripped 100% of armor, slash ticks went up.  So basically his question was why did it do more damage when the armor was off

[--RV--Dopekoke]

Lets go a little further, 

 True damage, while also bypassing Shields. This enables it to ignore the major defense stats of both Grineer (armor) and Corpus (shields).

 

and then if you go into true damage, there are no modifiers for corpus, it ignores grineer armor.  So when op damaged the raknoid, it had armor which it did not bypass because for corpus, it only bypasses shields, but once the armor was off, no damage reduction, nothing.  Again, everything I have posted was in reference to OP and the enemy type.  I dont know why some people bring up what they can do against heavy gunners or bombards when it's not relevant.  

[OvisCaedo]

I'm really confused by what point you think you're making, here. Yes, we can all see that they are taking reduced damage from slash procs while their armor is in effect. Nobody is doubting that. What people are pointing out is that this is very starkly different from all prior examples of how armor interacts with slash procs. Including, for example, all previous armored corpus enemies! They are pointing out that this is mechanically inconsistent and you seem to be trying to repeatedly argue "but look it's doing it"

what's interesting to me is the poster who claimed that Ghouls seem to exhibit the same issue, making it seem less like a deliberate spider-bot choice and more like a bugged interaction with health types being set as armor types

Edited November 22, 2018 by OvisCaedo

[--RV--Dopekoke]

21 minutes ago, OvisCaedo said:

I'm really confused by what point you think you're making, here. Yes, we can all see that they are taking reduced damage from slash procs while their armor is in effect. Nobody is doubting that. What people are pointing out is that this is very starkly different from all prior examples of how armor interacts with slash procs. Including, for example, all previous armored corpus enemies! They are pointing out that this is mechanically inconsistent and you seem to be trying to repeatedly argue "but look it's doing it"

All previous armored corpus enemies have alloy armor, this has robotic armor.

Edited November 22, 2018 by Dopekoke

[--RV--Dopekoke]

280 slash on a PREVIOUS CORPUS ENEMY

Would you look at that, slash bleed doing exactly as intended since its ALLOY armor as opposed to ROBOTIC armor

[--RV--Dopekoke]

OP even states in his title, "robotic" armor type, did nobody really do any research before posting?