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My perception / how arbitrations should've been


W4RM3CH4N1C
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In no particular order:

Starting enemy level, potentially higher than what we can spawn in simulacrum 160ish, or maybe at least post sortie level, starting 100ish.

Remove the arbitration drones, i'm not salty, just not a fan of artificial difficulty.

Give us rotations of factions, have grineer turn up with napalms one minute and give us techs the next minute, make it so everyone in the team can bring something different to the party and feel useful maybe?

Allow team revives, still keep it that when you're down you're out, but with the zero damage bug etc atm it's making it feel like pure luck rather than dropping the ball and getting knocked out for it.

Pile on the enemies, even if you want to do a reduced xp modifier to save extreme farming tactics!

I guess this was all brought on by this amazing feel we had with the alert level 4 pre-nerf fortuna enemies. A bunch of us salty vets felt we could use all our shiny gear and still get our collective behinds (kinda) handed to us, it was fun, it was refreshing, it was chaos, it was OTT at time, and guess what?

We freaking loved it! I can totally understand toning down newer planets for the newer players, but make arbtrations be what we all crave, what we hoped it would be, what we needed it to be, what we deserve haha just some dirty, chaotic, power creeping mayhem haha

TL;DR?

Remove drones, PILE on the enemies, higher starting level, have factions interchange randomly, 1 life in game, team can still revive though.

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1 life matter but do make it like it has been advertised in prelounch videos when it was said that party members can revive downed one( what it the point of oberon skills or some mods that increases downed state time/dmg/... ? if even in arbitration missions are usless 😞 )

faction rotations - that is an intresting ideea 🙂

some missions type take like forever from time perspective even with a speed nova in party

drones - nobody likes drones real life one or in games one 🙂

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I like having no revives.  It makes survival dependent on tanking or being able to dodge, and not being a dps/power scrub who relies on a teammate to pick up their Ember, Saryn, or Mesa every other couple of minutes.

The drones are negligible too, artificial difficulty is starting at 100-150 and using cheese builds to do all of the work.  My gripe is them exploding and taking out enemy crowds, but at the 130 mark that becomes useful.

I like the 300% strength bonuses, but to be honest I could live without them.  My only gripe is the Arbis sandwich drones getting armor buffs from Infested buffer units, which alone makes killing drones absolutely annoying.  I also can't stand defense targets losing their health bonuses if a host change occurs or how often you get DCed past 20 minutes because half the lobby always quits out.

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My issue with Arbitration is that it's very slow. Why is a game mode that new players won't even get to even see unless they stick around for a while so slow to ramp up in difficulty?

Because DE decided to spread-up rewards at half the pace and scaling is tied to mission progress/wave/time.

It makes the game mode more tedious than it should. They did great on keeping the infinite C rotation, but giving the rewards at normal progress rate while doubling base enemy level would be much appreciated. 1 hour Survival feels like the difficulty it should have after 20 minutes.

Additionally, throw in a randomly spawning enemy Warframe specter into the mix instead of the drone. That will further increase the tension.

Other than that I'm happy with the mode.

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17 hours ago, W4RM3CH4N1C said:

Remove the arbitration drones, i'm not salty, just not a fan of artificial difficulty.

What does "artificial difficulty" even mean? Googling and checking a Reddit resource gave the example of "massive health pools or bosses that throw tons of normal enemies at you", and the drones are neither.

17 hours ago, W4RM3CH4N1C said:

Pile on the enemies, even if you want to do a reduced xp modifier to save extreme farming tactics!

I doubt this will happen due to performance. More enemies means more data for the host PC means people need better computers, etc. etc. etc...

DE wants the game to be accessible to lower-end machines, or at least accessible enough not to need to overclock one's GPU and lead to subsequent fire hazards. They can go only so far with enemy spawns.

17 hours ago, W4RM3CH4N1C said:

I guess this was all brought on by this amazing feel we had with the alert level 4 pre-nerf fortuna enemies. A bunch of us salty vets felt we could use all our shiny gear and still get our collective behinds (kinda) handed to us, it was fun, it was refreshing, it was chaos, it was OTT at time, and guess what?

Okay, I am lost. Do you want pre-nerf Orb Vallis, or a harder version of ESO? They're different beasts. Enemies in Orb Vallis are tooled for the open environment: they're faster, more mobile, more varied than previous Corpus units, better able to take advantage of Warframe range deficiencies, with unique methods of difficulty (knocking around players without rendering them powerless, e.g.). ESO uses the same Starchart units and tilesets and, by my recollection, never spurred a reaction of "chaotic, refreshing fun".

Your words are saying "Orb Vallis!" but your idea is saying "ESO+!" Which is it?

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Since I got Adaptation, I haven't even done Arbitration anymore. I have like 50 something Vitus Essence and nothing worth spending them on. Just got bored with it, mainly from a solo player it wasn't really entertaining. Personally I'd rather go to zone 10 or so of ESO and have more fun.

I do agree with the enemy levels. Right now, they don't have much of a challenge and even at an hour, they're at 130. Granted I don't think I can spawn those levels in the simulacrum because of MR but still, it's not much of an issue.

I don't mind the drones, my Sobek takes care of them pretty easily.

I can support the idea of rotating factions. I think that's why I prefer ESO so much. It's not just one faction over and over for the duration of the mission.

Enemies, yes please or at least give solo players and option to toggle on more spawns. The real enemy of Arbitration is the lack of enemies and life support than dying/killing.

I like that there isn't revives, but I guess I would still get that since there is no team to revive me in this suggestion. 

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While starting levels could be higher they're more artificial difficulty than the drones are.

Rotating factions, removing drones, and adding revives? Sounds like you want it to be a copy-paste of Onslaught.

The entire point of the mode is that you have one chance to not mess up and you can't rely on your abilities 100% of the time. Removing these features from it removes the point and purpose of the mode.

Especially the Arbitration drones, people can hate on them all they want but without them we'd literally be playing Onslaught on a fixed map.

 

If anything we need Elite Arbitrations with different rewards than the current one (like some cosmetic ones DE said would be the reason for end-game players to play them?).

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9 hours ago, (XB1)Turaglas said:

I like having no revives.  It makes survival dependent on tanking or being able to dodge, and not being a dps/power scrub who relies on a teammate to pick up their Ember, Saryn, or Mesa every other couple of minutes.

 

55 minutes ago, Brandt1 said:

I like that there isn't revives, but I guess I would still get that since there is no team to revive me in this suggestion. 

 

16 minutes ago, trst said:

The entire point of the mode is that you have one chance to not mess up and you can't rely on your abilities 100% of the time. Removing these features from it removes the point and purpose of the mode.

Just to address these points my aim is not to subvert the entire endeavour by allowing people to cheese revives, it's more that due to a current bug which doesn't seem to be going away anytime soon and given the initial perception was that 1 life but team comp for revives. Lets not forget sometimes that performing a revive can sometimes cause as much stress on a team. I've got absolutely nothing against people and how they wanna play, I just apparently wrongly perceived this was gonna be the case as it felt more natural and fluid for gameplay.

9 hours ago, (XB1)Turaglas said:

The drones are negligible too, artificial difficulty is starting at 100-150 and using cheese builds to do all of the work.  My gripe is them exploding and taking out enemy crowds, but at the 130 mark that becomes useful.

 

59 minutes ago, Brandt1 said:

I don't mind the drones, my Sobek takes care of them pretty easily.

 

20 minutes ago, trst said:

Especially the Arbitration drones, people can hate on them all they want but without them we'd literally be playing Onslaught on a fixed map.

 

1 hour ago, Tyreaus said:

What does "artificial difficulty" even mean? Googling and checking a Reddit resource gave the example of "massive health pools or bosses that throw tons of normal enemies at you", and the drones are neither.

Hey look I'm not there to try and change anyone's mind about how things are or should be, this is all for the sake of the debate. I wanted to go back to playing the gamemode as it was perceived in my head (and I was genuinely excited for) however the reality seemed rather bland and inert by comparison and I'm just not returning to it and feel a few simple but broad changes would make all the difference.

Just for the sake of clarity, different schools of gamers etc, but artificial difficulty has always meant to me things like invulnerability phases in boss fights etc no tactics just a straight up "no"

it was purely that these drone feel like a) something that was never mentioned prior to release, I keep (relatively) up to date with WF news but I don't recall seeing anything. b) a fake tach-on to falsely hinder the playstyle we come and stay here for.

1 hour ago, Tyreaus said:

Okay, I am lost. Do you want pre-nerf Orb Vallis, or a harder version of ESO? They're different beasts. Enemies in Orb Vallis are tooled for the open environment: they're faster, more mobile, more varied than previous Corpus units, better able to take advantage of Warframe range deficiencies, with unique methods of difficulty (knocking around players without rendering them powerless, e.g.). ESO uses the same Starchart units and tilesets and, by my recollection, never spurred a reaction of "chaotic, refreshing fun".

Your words are saying "Orb Vallis!" but your idea is saying "ESO+!" Which is it?

Okay so essentially it's a case of wanting all of it 😉

The mention of Orb Vallis was to provide some context as to the intensity and rewarding style of gameplay (enemies being chucked at you, all sorts of different CC, ranged gunfire) which started to hurt early on. I think you've drawn a false equivalency in that I'm talking about the action, the pace etc, rather than specifically the gamemode. I guess from that point we should talk that arbitration would be great on the open world areas, or that we go back to larger maps on SO/ESO, and rotate factions within the current round/wave. Maybe it's time for some of these newer enemies to make it into the mainstream tilesets? Albeit in some kinda modified form?

I also regard DE very highly in the optimising of their game engines and having seen the Orb Vallis pre-nerf, I noticed no real framerate drops even when the screen was in chaos and I'm only running a dated/modest little desktop at the best of times hehe

Hopefully I've not quoted anyone too out of context!

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The Defense Arbitrations either need to be reworked or removed entirely.  The last one I did took 30 min to get through 1 rotation w/ a premade group.  The fact that that's even possible is disgusting.  This may well have something to do with the enemy pathing issues that have been present since Chimera, but either way,  I wont be running a defense arby again with it in it's current state.

Edited by (XB1)Shad0wfire99
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Just now, (XB1)Shad0wfire99 said:

The Defense Arbitrations either need to be reworked or removed entirely.  The last one I did took 30 min to get through 1 rotation w/ a premade group.  The fact that that's even possible is disgusting.

Was it the old defense tile on Uranus?  The one that has four cryopods, and when it's a normal defense it cycles between them every wave?  I bet it was, wasn't it?

Even if it wasn't, that tile has either got to be removed, or the AI/pathfinding fixed because it's some of the worst in the game.  Practically every wave ends with the players having to hunt down the enemies that spawned into random alcoves unalerted, or the guy who spawned up on a wall, or sometimes there's even a whole crowd of people jammed up in one of the little corridors.  That last one is probably the worst because the game looks at the number of enemies, sees that there's still like 30 left, and doesn't mark them like it does when you're down to the last handful.

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4 minutes ago, (PS4)Lollybomb said:

Was it the old defense tile on Uranus?  The one that has four cryopods, and when it's a normal defense it cycles between them every wave?  I bet it was, wasn't it?

Even if it wasn't, that tile has either got to be removed, or the AI/pathfinding fixed because it's some of the worst in the game.  Practically every wave ends with the players having to hunt down the enemies that spawned into random alcoves unalerted, or the guy who spawned up on a wall, or sometimes there's even a whole crowd of people jammed up in one of the little corridors.  That last one is probably the worst because the game looks at the number of enemies, sees that there's still like 30 left, and doesn't mark them like it does when you're down to the last handful.

It was the Kala-Azar tileset on Eris.  Infested.  Which makes it even more baffling that it took as long as it did.

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vor 2 Stunden schrieb Tyreaus:

What does "artificial difficulty" even mean? Googling and checking a Reddit resource gave the example of "massive health pools or bosses that throw tons of normal enemies at you", and the drones are neither.

Lots of people use that word when they talk about the drones and say "its only annoying - not difficult".

But thats the point, they have to be "annoying" and imo they are the main factor that makes this gamemode somewhat challenging.

We need stuff like Nullifiers, those Drones, scrambus etc to a certain degree, because otherwise, we can simply CC the whole map the whole time.

 

vor 20 Stunden schrieb W4RM3CH4N1C:

Remove the arbitration drones, i'm not salty, just not a fan of artificial difficulty. 

I am really curious, how would you implement difficulty in this gamemode, if not with drones?

Dont answer with: "raise the lvl" btw, because when we can CC everything, it doesnt matter if the enemy is lvl 50,500 or 5000, if they are stunned by Nezha's Spears, Volt's Discharge, Nyx' Chaos, Lokis Radial Disarm, Mags CounterPulse etc etc etc the lvl doesnt matter at all.

In Arbitrations, Interception was interesting and challenging for the first time more or less because of these drones. Because no Nova can slow them down to snail speed the whole time, no Limbos can cover all points and rifts and so on. Without drones, it will be a CC-spam immediatly again. You can still CC some units, but there will be always other enemies you have to fight differently because you cannot CC them. Thats a good balance imo, not everything is immune, but there are always some immune to abilities.

 

Edit: If "pile on the enemies" shall be the answer, it also wont make it more difficult. Some frames even would be happy if there are bigger groups of enemies and then can deal even more damage, Volt and Saryn for example.

Edited by DreisterDino
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Those drones! I would never die if they didn't exist. They're fine up to like 50 minutes in a survival, but after that you're lucky if you can find them in all that screen pollution. Meanwhile, the enemies can shoot the living daylights out of you while you're still trying to take out a tiny flying object! It's frustrating when you are fighting an enemy and all of a sudden the enemy gets that pink glow around it. I've started combating the drones by using Bombard + Heavy Gunner + Shield Osprey+Ancient Healer specter army.

On the Draco Interception arbitration, I've decided that it's okay if I do not do the most damage or get the most kills. I go immediately to that capture point in the back with the protective wall, set up my army. I justify this by the fact that there is usually another more eager Saryn in the squad and my spores will help to weaken the enemies.

Also, the survival spawns are strange. It's either a ghost town or it's mid-day Manhattan!

Overall, it's been a rewarding experience and I finally have use for my specters! I don't know if my problem with the drones is a matter of getting 'gud' or maybe they need some tweaking. It's supposed to be difficult, but it feels almost impossible sometimes.

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vor 5 Minuten schrieb (PS4)supernova_girlie:

Those drones! I would never die if they didn't exist. They're fine up to like 50 minutes in a survival, but after that you're lucky if you can find them in all that screen pollution.

Thats the one thing i would agree with, Drones shouldnt be removed,

but it wouldnt hurt if they would become a little bigger so you dont have to try to find them in a group of enemies first.

 

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1 hour ago, DreisterDino said:

I am really curious, how would you implement difficulty in this gamemode, if not with drones?

Dont answer with: "raise the lvl" btw, because when we can CC everything, it doesnt matter if the enemy is lvl 50,500 or 5000, if they are stunned by Nezha's Spears, Volt's Discharge, Nyx' Chaos, Lokis Radial Disarm, Mags CounterPulse etc etc etc the lvl doesnt matter at all.

It's a tough answer as we all know, but my points would be along these lines.

1) The increased level was more an indication, i.e. enemies start off immediately a threat and take a beating not the comedic laughing stock we have to sit through for 40mins until we remotely get there. Wasn't this the idea in the first place?

2) I would remove the drones because we already have units which cover this requirement as you mention (the Nullifiers and scrambus etc) however their tagging is pretty random they can sometimes operate at huge (bugged?) range, and their hit box is wonky at best. So going back to my idea of just chucking completely random units at us, have plains mobs turn up with nullis, have Bursas turn up with Infested MOA's etc throw us off our guard wherever possible, we have so many mobs why not make more of the synergy of the enemy in the same way we do with frame powers/the weapons and the team comp?

3) This gamemode essentially promotes even less fun playstyles (arguably subjective) such as bayblading, and "almost" required weapons such as the good ol' arca plasmors etc (note, I'm fully aware/support the fact we could bring other weapons), because of the drones. However, even weapon choices to oneside as someone mentioned earlier, you've got a hoard of enemies in front of you and you're hunting for a tiny drone which will hopefully kill them all when you kill it? Doesn't this seem a touch counter intuitive?

Again just ideas, and it does seem that opinion is divided

(also, pile on the enemies hehe)

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3 hours ago, W4RM3CH4N1C said:

1) The increased level was more an indication, i.e. enemies start off immediately a threat and take a beating not the comedic laughing stock we have to sit through for 40mins until we remotely get there. Wasn't this the idea in the first place?

Without the drones, they could be level 1000 and not pose a threat.

3 hours ago, W4RM3CH4N1C said:

(also, pile on the enemies hehe)

How many players with not great computers are you willing to sacrifice to get more enemies?

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Please just cut down the time in half. The reason people don't like endgame in this game is because it takes too long to get to so they went and did the exact opposite of what the community wanted which was make the mission take TWICE AS LONG i honestly DO NOT UNDERSTAND what goes on in the devs' heads. If anything they should make the content of 5 defense waves come all in ONE, and then give one reward per wave. Now THAT'S some intense endgame that i'd be excited to play.

ALSO make it like Junkenstein's Revenge in OW and add a timer to each wave, once the timer expires THE NEXT WAVE COMES REGARDLESS YOU CLEARED THE CURRENT ONE OR NOT. BOOM instant incentive to clear enemies as fast as you can cus if you don't you get either death or unbearable lag

Also pls remove the drones they make the mode incredibly exclusive in playstyle and weapon/warframe choice

Edited by Learicorn
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29 minutes ago, Legion-Shields said:

All of them.

Then DE will not entertain the idea.

28 minutes ago, Learicorn said:

Also pls remove the drones they make the mode incredibly exclusive in playstyle and weapon/warframe choice

The drones are the only reason the mode exists. Without them, there is literally no difficulty.

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"Starting on higher levels than sortie"
 

This is the problem, there is the New players, There is the Inter-, medium, and the Veterans,

New players are already pleased with what they got,but imagine making the Arbitrations to start at levels like 120,non-powerful riven non meta wont stand a chance and wont like it,only the super veterans

 

in resume I mean 

New players are already pleased

If they level up level in arbitration as you say,Veterans will be pleased

but then what happens to the inter medium?

Btw the rotations and rewards are so damn lame,

30 Minutes for some cheap ayatans that we dont even need? jeez change this first.

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- it would be nice if we could revive players in arbitrations, if you bleed out then it's perma death.

- it would be nice if the +300% damage increase for X frame also include some sort of defensive modifier to help the squishier frames.

Edited by iuki.
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