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A List of Simple Solutions for Leechers on Open World Bounties / Jobs.


MysticDragonMage

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Some of these issues people have like with playing with a friend in a specific way would also be more effectively solved by having the "leechers" rewards be shared. In fact that would incentivize squads from clans/alliances or friends to go in together and encourage more co-op play by plan, which would by definition discourage leechwork bc more planned full/locked squads means less open ones to join in. But that argument is retroactive.

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seeing as there have been a lot of comments with ideas to share loot once the bounty is complete, i'd like to share my own input as to why i strongly disagree with this idea.

it would be inconsistent with how the game currently works.

players dont share loot at the end of regular missions because it encourages even leeches to at least move around and collect items on their own in order to get the optimum reward. while it could be said that it would be nice for one friend to collect while the other to plays the objective, there is nothing stopping a player from doing both while the other continues to leech the optimum reward by doing nothing. not everyone is going to have a friend available and the devs need to take casual players into account weather some like it or not.

this concept will encourage more leeching than it is now, because then leechers would have an excuse. the goal here is to have everyone participate in the bounty they have chosen like every other regular mission.

regardless of it being an open world, the game you play is still warframe. when you have physically chosen a mission, commit to that choice and do that mission. nothing else is necessary and i personally dont care if i get extra fish or rep because of loot sharing. i care about players participating in the missions they have physically chosen.

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The amount of people who think this is a non-issue simply because they take turns with their friends and clanmates going off to mine and fish during bounties is ridiculous, so let's just separate them from the equation by doing something like this.

Is the squad a public instance? > Disable all non-essential mission equipment during bounties (IE: mining, fishing, conservation, etc).

Is the squad a friends-only or Invite-only instance? > Let them do whatever they want

 

Then add this:

If a player spends a bounty stage outside the designated bounty zone, they get a chat message reminding them that a bounty is in progress. If they spend a second stage outside the area, they get another message and a penalty to rewards (like 50% less standing or no item rewards like kuva, relics, etc). If they spend a third bounty outside the stage, the rest of the squad gets a notification to vote kick, selecting yes or no, majority votes win and the leecher is automatically kicked and stripped of rewards.

For bounties without a designated area this does not apply, and I don't know if bounties with less than 5 stages should still give 3 "strikes" or scale them down. For now this is what I have.

Opinions?

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7 hours ago, Kuestenjung said:

You obviously don´t know how to efficiently collect credits, it´s not by killing enemies, it´s by cracking containers.

If the containers are near what you are killing - IE inside the buildings at the grow sight - then more power to ya... there's mobs near there. But your comment is a distraction... apply that logic to killing 65 Moas... you cant so just stop.

 

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To be fair I was addressing the clan/squad players for their sake. I'm a casual friendless player myself, and I still think this is a good idea. 

3 hours ago, MysticDragonMage said:

players dont share loot at the end of regular missions because it encourages even leeches to at least move around and collect items on their own in order to get the optimum reward. while it could be said that it would be nice for one friend to collect while the other to plays the objective, there is nothing stopping a player from doing both while the other continues to leech the optimum reward by doing nothing. not everyone is going to have a friend available and the devs need to take casual players into account weather some like it or not.

this concept will encourage more leeching than it is now, because then leechers would have an excuse. the goal here is to have everyone participate in the bounty they have chosen like every other regular mission.

We may have to agree to disagree here. You seem to be saying this solution is detrimental bc it encourages leechers, but id argue where is the detriment. If I'm doing a fortuna bounty (when it's out) and some random decides to catch fish instead and I don't particularly need his help (more mobs for me to test my builds on) then by all means. He's not a leech anymore, he's a favorable business partner.

Correct me if I'm wrong but it seems like ur primary rejection reason is out of principal, like following through on a mission. 

Bottom line, if people are going to find ways to leech anyway, if we implement this and if we don't, at least take this route and give the honest players some benefit too.

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26 minutes ago, (PS4)negativ21 said:

To be fair I was addressing the clan/squad players for their sake. I'm a casual friendless player myself, and I still think this is a good idea. 

We may have to agree to disagree here. You seem to be saying this solution is detrimental bc it encourages leechers, but id argue where is the detriment. If I'm doing a fortuna bounty (when it's out) and some random decides to catch fish instead and I don't particularly need his help (more mobs for me to test my builds on) then by all means. He's not a leech anymore, he's a favorable business partner.

Correct me if I'm wrong but it seems like ur primary rejection reason is out of principal, like following through on a mission. 

Bottom line, if people are going to find ways to leech anyway, if we implement this and if we don't, at least take this route and give the honest players some benefit too.

If you want to test your build, solo it. If you want to complete as quickly as possible so that you can do other things, having them not help kills that. Kicking them gets the message across. Nothing more annoying than to try and get things done in a limited amount of time than having some one drag things down. I have no life. Im retired. I have all day to play games. But I was a business owner and with the limited gaming time I had as a business owner and a dad, people slowing things down was unacceptable. Alerts, Bounties, Invasions, Fissures, Sorties... these are meant to be done fast. If you want to slow down and fish, min or break open containers, go solo directly to Orb Vallis or the Plains of Eidelon or a Syndicate mission or even a mission anywhere else on the map. Then take your time and do whatever your heart desires. It's Rude to waste people's time. And last I checked, this is an 18+ game and most of you have jobs.

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30 minutes ago, (PS4)negativ21 said:

To be fair I was addressing the clan/squad players for their sake. I'm a casual friendless player myself, and I still think this is a good idea. 

We may have to agree to disagree here. You seem to be saying this solution is detrimental bc it encourages leechers, but id argue where is the detriment. If I'm doing a fortuna bounty (when it's out) and some random decides to catch fish instead and I don't particularly need his help (more mobs for me to test my builds on) then by all means. He's not a leech anymore, he's a favorable business partner.

Correct me if I'm wrong but it seems like ur primary rejection reason is out of principal, like following through on a mission. 

Bottom line, if people are going to find ways to leech anyway, if we implement this and if we don't, at least take this route and give the honest players some benefit too.

if a random joins the same bounty you have chosen, then that means said player has also physically chosen that bounty.

like any mission on the star chart, they should commit to this choice and participate in completing the mission, regardless on weather or not other players need the help.

nothing else should be necessary while a bounty is active. you do not choose bounties to fish, mine, or hunt. you choose the bounty to do the bounty.

if you feel as if you dont need help during a bounty, then solo it. you should not get fish if you dont fish in the first place. you should not get mining materials if you dont mine in the first place. you dont deserve any rare item someone picks up if you dont want to walk over and pick it up yourself.

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24 minutes ago, MysticDragonMage said:

if a random joins the same bounty you have chosen, then that means said player has also physically chosen that bounty.

like any mission on the star chart, they should commit to this choice and participate in completing the mission, regardless on weather or not other players need the help.

nothing else should be necessary while a bounty is active. you do not choose bounties to fish, mine, or hunt. you choose the bounty to do the bounty.

if you feel as if you dont need help during a bounty, then solo it. you should not get fish if you dont fish in the first place. you should not get mining materials if you dont mine in the first place. you dont deserve any rare item someone picks up if you dont want to walk over and pick it up yourself.

WE HAVE A WINNER! I would add in that not joining in the completion of a mission, makes it take longer for the rest and wastes everyone's time.

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20 hours ago, (PS4)negativ21 said:

Could you be more clear as to why this is a bad idea. Your saying that be it will in effect encourage "leeching", except that by that point it won't be leeching anymore, since everyone benefits from everyone's actions. It would be redefined as cooperation at that point.

It's really simple. By sharing the rewards, you have now set up a new avenue to leeching, that is, the guy flipping out on his K-Drive outside of Fortuna's elevator is now the smartest A****** of the bunch. He no longer needs to play the game to get gems or fish or bounty rewards, all he needs to do is hop into a Free Roam squad and go AFK. Sounds pessimistic? If the world was a wonderful place, we wouldn't even be discussing the topic so you know this is how it is going to be abused.

The other is exactly what you're suggesting is a great benefit to of such a "solution". The effective way to play Bounties from then on, is to have 1 person tryhard all the Bounties with 3 other players fishing and mining. This is not going to confine itself to just pre-made squads, it's going to bleed into public matchmaking because, "You're an idiot and I'm helping you make a better use of your time" mentality will show up. They're going to do nothing but mine and fish because much like you, they will view it as the best way to play the game.

Ultimately, much like @ChaosSabre, the problem is viewed entirely from a personal perspective that getting anything and everything will quell your personal pet peeve with leeching, that that other guy is getting away with more than you. You aren't affected by the side-effects which is why the solution works for you. However, the solution doesn't work for everyone, the value of what they contribute is not a consolation that allows them to skip playing the mission they selected.

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Y'all seem pretty pissed off and maybe bc u think I am a leecher or something, but either way I'ma make this my last post. 

First, I don't see anything wrong with testing my build in a squad. 4 players means more enemy spawns means more bad guys for me to test my mob killing builds on. This outside of simalcrum it is a grea

9 hours ago, Flandyrll said:

Idk how to rid this

t way to test those builds. And as you say, I have a life and not a lot of time, so testing my build while also farming bounties is quite nice, and if a random decides to awol I just get more baddies to kill, should I please. Yes, this won't be every time I want this, but some is better than none.i have the freedom to do that and many many people do.  Mind y'all testing my build is just a minor side benefit of this proposal. 

21 hours ago, ThumpumGood said:

If you want to test your build, solo it. If you want to complete as quickly as possible so that you can do other things, having them not help kills that. Kicking them gets the message across. Nothing more annoying than to try and get things done in a limited amount of time than having some one drag things down. I have no life. Im retired. I have all day to play games.

So there may have been some confusion. I didn't say anything about going fast or slow. If I'm farming then fast is the way to go. But like with many star chart missions, most of the time lost is travelling and waiting for timers or ish, which is compounded in POE (have yet to play fortuna). Having some random run an invasion/etc with me at my level likely won't change the speed if im serious, in my experience.

Disclaimer: I have yet to play fortuna, and the only mission I see participation or lack there of effecting play time is defense/interception and the like. If fortuna has such bounties, then I am unaware. Then again there never is a solve all. 

I'm proposing a system where leechers actions are less harmful to everyone by a shared system. It's more efficient by nature. Like one guy said, this just lessens the harm, not rids it, and some people are not satisfied with that. I'm open to a kick vote or alternate solution, but im pretty sure this is the solution with the most surplus overall. Literally everyone wins. Some more than others, but in net the benefit is greater than a solution that forced people to stop. That's the hard logic there. 

21 hours ago, MysticDragonMage said:

like any mission on the star chart, they should commit to this choice and participate in completing the mission, regardless on weather or not other players need the help.

nothing else should be necessary while a bounty is active. you do not choose bounties to fish, mine, or hunt. you choose the bounty to do the bounty.

Most of these, like any should statement, is subjective. People should, but will they? We know that irl people don't gaf. I propose to coerce and control the leechers instead of fightng them. A far more efficient solution. As I said I don't really mind, but u seem to be rejecting my proposal on principal and (dare I say it) personal feelings rather than benefit and effect. 

9 hours ago, Flandyrll said:

's really simple. By sharing the rewards, you have now set up a new avenue to leeching, that is, the guy flipping out on his K-Drive outside of Fortuna's elevator is now the smartest A****** of the bunch. He no longer needs to play the game to get gems or fish or bounty rewards, all he needs to do is hop into a Free Roam squad and go AFK. Sounds pessimistic? If the world was a wonderful place, we wouldn't even be discussing the topic so you know this is how it is going to be abused.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. As you say, their is some perceptional aspect to it. To me, having a random or 3 doing other things while I do the bounty (keep in mind I only done POE) is pretty literally only beneficial to me, as long as I don't need their help. If I do, and usually the game has cues for if a vault or specific thing is going badly, they may fly over to help, or risk losjng everything. Im mature (and jaded?) enough to not be miffed about the fact they are clearly taking advantage of me bc I know it's better than the alternative. Sure I could kick them, but then I'd get nothing. To some people the idea of that is not acceptable.

Lastly, as far as the community and public matches goes (which is actually what I was talking about, as I said I do public matches usually) the community will adjust. Peeps will learn, and act accordingly. Now I do see how this could get out of hand, but I'm sure the numbers can be adjusted or the function to make it fair for everyone. As I said earlier, I'm open to any solution for the end result though, this just seems more efficient. 

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9 hours ago, Flandyrll said:

It's really simple. By sharing the rewards, you have now set up a new avenue to leeching, that is, the guy flipping out on his K-Drive outside of Fortuna's elevator is now the smartest A****** of the bunch. He no longer needs to play the game to get gems or fish or bounty rewards, all he needs to do is hop into a Free Roam squad and go AFK. Sounds pessimistic? If the world was a wonderful place, we wouldn't even be discussing the topic so you know this is how it is going to be abused.

The other is exactly what you're suggesting is a great benefit to of such a "solution". The effective way to play Bounties from then on, is to have 1 person tryhard all the Bounties with 3 other players fishing and mining. This is not going to confine itself to just pre-made squads, it's going to bleed into public matchmaking because, "You're an idiot and I'm helping you make a better use of your time" mentality will show up. They're going to do nothing but mine and fish because much like you, they will view it as the best way to play the game.

Ultimately, much like @ChaosSabre, the problem is viewed entirely from a personal perspective that getting anything and everything will quell your personal pet peeve with leeching, that that other guy is getting away with more than you. You aren't affected by the side-effects which is why the solution works for you. However, the solution doesn't work for everyone, the value of what they contribute is not a consolation that allows them to skip playing the mission they selected. 

Well those are extreme cases. You'll always have those jerks around who don't want to do anything. No solution will ever be perfect.

Besides removing mining and fishing all together and making those resources purchasable with faction standing.

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5 hours ago, ChaosSabre said:

Well those are extreme cases. You'll always have those jerks around who don't want to do anything. No solution will ever be perfect.

Besides removing mining and fishing all together and making those resources purchasable with faction standing.

It's not an extreme case when it can happen a few times in a row. The reason why people are fishing and mining during bounties is because they want the bounty reward but they don't see any value in actually playing the game mode they selected but they can't leech their fish and gems so they don't have a choice but to do it. 

Either way, sharing the reward will not push them to playing the game. It pushes them away from playing the game because once again, if the goal is to get resources without participating, they will move on to leeching fish and gems while farming Toroids/K-Drive standing on their own. It's not hard to imagine, just view the game from a purely practical standpoint where you have "something more important to do", the next logical choice if fish and gems are shared is to leech those too.

5 hours ago, (PS4)negativ21 said:

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. As you say, their is some perceptional aspect to it. To me, having a random or 3 doing other things while I do the bounty (keep in mind I only done POE) is pretty literally only beneficial to me, as long as I don't need their help. If I do, and usually the game has cues for if a vault or specific thing is going badly, they may fly over to help, or risk losjng everything. Im mature (and jaded?) enough to not be miffed about the fact they are clearly taking advantage of me bc I know it's better than the alternative. Sure I could kick them, but then I'd get nothing. To some people the idea of that is not acceptable.

Lastly, as far as the community and public matches goes (which is actually what I was talking about, as I said I do public matches usually) the community will adjust. Peeps will learn, and act accordingly. Now I do see how this could get out of hand, but I'm sure the numbers can be adjusted or the function to make it fair for everyone. As I said earlier, I'm open to any solution for the end result though, this just seems more efficient. 

If the solution is beneficial to you but damages the entire community and hurts a large number of people, is it really an efficient solution? The core issue is not that they are taking advantage of other players, that's a very superficial analysis of the problem. The reason why you cannot push for such a solution to combat leeching is a foundational one, which is that you are setting up a way for people to select game modes and not play them. In the long run, you're setting up to worsen the situation. 

Imagine you were playing a MOBA, and the most efficient way to earn game credits is for 1 player to actively not participate in the game and instead, play a minigame in the spawn point. Whether or not he is getting more rewards than you or if the rewards is being shared, you have set up a situation where it is the "correct way" to have people not playing the game.

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17 minutes ago, Flandyrll said:

not an extreme case when it can happen a few times in a row. The reason why people are fishing and mining during bounties is because they want the bounty reward but they don't see any value in actually playing the game mode they selected but they can't leech their fish and gems so they don't have a choice but to do it

I guess from my POV it would not have such a serious effect. There are two ways to look at this.

First, warframe is a fighting game, farming is something people do so they can fight more effectively (better/more gear), and they receive a fun factor from that. In the short term yes my solution will cause what you are saying, which is that people won't ever play bounties truly, just join and do other stuff. But we know foundationally that this is limited. There is not infinite things to obtain in either POE or Fortuna. People will abuse this system yes, then they will get back to playing the game as they always have. Actually, even while this is initially implemented, many people will still utility maximize by playing instead of abusing, yet they won't care bc they also get benefit, or care less. Once people have all of the resources, and mainly feel less pressured to farm to keep up with the ridiculous grind presented to them, they will be more inclined to participate in the bounty more conventionally. And they will probably enjoy doing so too.

This argument goes hand in hand with the second way to look at all of this, which I hope you will agree with. The whole problem of leechers in bounties POE/fortuna is a symptom of the ridiculous grind both open worlds present. Now you may have already obtained everything there is to get, but many haven't. The fact that bounties are crazy laggy, repetitive, and overall boring with how many things are placed behind them doesn't help. Leechers existed before POE too, but people didn't seem to care as much. DE is building the grind wall too high, and people are responding as they naturally will and trying to circumvent it. 

We could fight them, and prevent leeching with kicks and stuff, but the core problem won't disappear. My solution won't change the leechers, and it may cause some short term disequilibrium, but it does address the root problem. It will allow people to alleviate the grind for themselves and for others, while even encouraging co-op play (imagine posting for a tier 4 bounty + murkray farm in the recruiting chat). And when people, leechers and honest players alike, have what they need, they'll go back to playing how they usually do, and wanted to do in the first place. 

Now if you argue that "I worked hard and farmed all the stuff, so they should too", well I would have nothing to say. We can talk all we want about what people "should" do or be, but the fact is they don't, and peeps always do wats best for themselves. It's best to manipulate that and meet everyone's needs, hence my proposal. 

Disclaimers: My solution assumes that WF doesn't in the near future have a ridic injection of new players, preventing the now "green" majority of the community from moving on from bounties in any world. 

It also assumes that the smaller an individual percieves his/her grind wall, the less pressured they will feel to find such dishonest solutions. This both means players will stop leeching late into their plains/fortuna grind as they are almost done, and it means the solution will almost solve it's problem just by existing. Both theoretically, though within my experience this is accurate statement.

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49 minutes ago, (PS4)negativ21 said:

First, warframe is a fighting game, farming is something people do so they can fight more effectively (better/more gear), and they receive a fun factor from that. In the short term yes my solution will cause what you are saying, which is that people won't ever play bounties truly, just join and do other stuff. But we know foundationally that this is limited. There is not infinite things to obtain in either POE or Fortuna. People will abuse this system yes, then they will get back to playing the game as they always have. Actually, even while this is initially implemented, many people will still utility maximize by playing instead of abusing, yet they won't care bc they also get benefit, or care less. Once people have all of the resources, and mainly feel less pressured to farm to keep up with the ridiculous grind presented to them, they will be more inclined to participate in the bounty more conventionally. And they will probably enjoy doing so too.

Falls apart the moment they place anything into bounties for a limited time. People move back to it to farm for Vaulted relics because it makes money, they will use the opportunity to stock up on them to sell them later. With this solution, you've set up a situation where they can mine a few rocks and fish and it's "fine because I'm contributing something". As you said, people will eventually obtain all they need from POE and Fortuna, so now, the solution is pointless because when everyone has reached that point, giving everyone 50 more Goblite is not worth anything.

49 minutes ago, (PS4)negativ21 said:

This argument goes hand in hand with the second way to look at all of this, which I hope you will agree with. The whole problem of leechers in bounties POE/fortuna is a symptom of the ridiculous grind both open worlds present. Now you may have already obtained everything there is to get, but many haven't. The fact that bounties are crazy laggy, repetitive, and overall boring with how many things are placed behind them doesn't help. Leechers existed before POE too, but people didn't seem to care as much. DE is building the grind wall too high, and people are responding as they naturally will and trying to circumvent it. 

How you perceive a "grind wall" is not excuse. Things aren't really placed behind bounties, more things are placed behind mining and fishing. If this grind wall issue is such a problem, it wouldn't be spilling over to Bounties because the rewards aren't particularly difficult to get and within a week or two, you would have gotten everything you need from bounties. The reason why people still do it though is because it's "free stuff while I mine and fish". Leechers were a thing before and they were a problem then, but people weren't coming up with solutions on how to pretend they're contributing to the squad based on subjective value of a few resources. 

49 minutes ago, (PS4)negativ21 said:

We could fight them, and prevent leeching with kicks and stuff, but the core problem won't disappear. My solution won't change the leechers, and it may cause some short term disequilibrium, but it does address the root problem. It will allow people to alleviate the grind for themselves and for others, while even encouraging co-op play (imagine posting for a tier 4 bounty + murkray farm in the recruiting chat). And when people, leechers and honest players alike, have what they need, they'll go back to playing how they usually do, and wanted to do in the first place. 

Once again, the idea that it'll encourage co-op play is only tied to organized groups. Even then, it's on DE's discretion as to whether or not they want people to be able to completely bypass specifically implemented resources. The problem I'm saying this will bring is that that mentality will bleed into public games and be enforced by people with your line of thinking, that it is "a more effective way to play the game". And no, the root problem is bad behavior. The metric of "grind wall" is not a less than 5 is bad, greater than 5 is acceptable. It's something you can't realistically quantify to suddenly move something that is in the wrong into a gray area where you can wiggle your way around punishment. If a person only has 2 hours to play Warframe a day, is the grind wall suddenly an accepted reason why he can leech, what about a person with 8 hours, can he leech while mining and fishing because "grind wall".

49 minutes ago, (PS4)negativ21 said:

Now if you argue that "I worked hard and farmed all the stuff, so they should too", well I would have nothing to say. We can talk all we want about what people "should" do or be, but the fact is they don't, and peeps always do wats best for themselves. It's best to manipulate that and meet everyone's needs, hence my proposal. 

Which is essentially capitulating to the bottom of the barrel with a poor consolation to people obsessed with obtaining every resource. Realistically, no one but the leecher wins when a solution that provides excuse and open avenues is pushed. As said, you get to bypass fishing and mining for now but once you're done, you don't need someone fishing and mining in bounties. When they're done, they just move on to the next thing they can cheese or cheat out. You set a precedent that it's acceptable to queue for bounties for any reason because "it's contributing" which will come back to bite us when you exclusive rewards back into these bounties.

49 minutes ago, (PS4)negativ21 said:

It also assumes that the smaller an individual percieves his/her grind wall, the less pressured they will feel to find such dishonest solutions. This both means players will stop leeching late into their plains/fortuna grind as they are almost done, and it means the solution will almost solve it's problem just by existing. Both theoretically, though within my experience this is accurate statement.

No, it falls apart whenever anything exclusive gets added back into those areas. Once again, if mining and fishing was the real "grind wall", they would be trying to leech of that, which isn't currently possible. You're giving people too much credit.

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30 minutes ago, (PS4)negativ21 said:

There is not infinite things to obtain in either POE or Fortuna.

except fish, animal dung, and the enemies that spawn plus the resources they drop.

31 minutes ago, (PS4)negativ21 said:

Once people have all of the resources, and mainly feel less pressured to farm to keep up with the ridiculous grind presented to them, they will be more inclined to participate in the bounty more conventionally. And they will probably enjoy doing so too.

this hypothesis is completely flawed. you cant simply assume that people being as human as they are will take on a specific tasks after completing another. there is just no way to predict that.

players dont need to leech in order to get past the grind these open worlds present. we dont need PoE or Fortuna to be easier to the degree loot sharing would offer.

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9 hours ago, MysticDragonMage said:

except fish, animal dung, and the enemies that spawn plus the resources they drop.

this hypothesis is completely flawed. you cant simply assume that people being as human as they are will take on a specific tasks after completing another. there is just no way to predict that.

players dont need to leech in order to get past the grind these open worlds present. we dont need PoE or Fortuna to be easier to the degree loot sharing would offer.

Ur first statement seems to miss my point. All those resources are for something. Y would I farm dung and fortuna mats when I don't need them to build anything. 

The hypothesis is not flawed. Its actually just that, a hypothesis. I can say that. I'm not and was not saying it's necessarily true, but im fairly sure it holds true to a solid extent. Dismissing it out of hand is flawed. 

U don't NEED anything man. U don't even NEED leechers to stop. They aren't full stopping you gameplay. All of this is discussion on suggestion. Shutting down ideas without seriously considering doesn't really have a place here. 

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12 hours ago, Flandyrll said:

Falls apart the moment they place anything into bounties for a limited time. People move back to it to farm for Vaulted relics because it makes money, they will use the opportunity to stock up on them to sell them later. With this solution, you've set up a situation where they can mine a few rocks and fish and it's "fine because I'm contributing something". As you said, people will eventually obtain all they need from POE and Fortuna, so now, the solution is pointless because when everyone has reached that point, giving everyone 50 more Goblite is not worth anything.

How you perceive a "grind wall" is not excuse. Things aren't really placed behind bounties, more things are placed behind mining and fishing. If this grind wall issue is such a problem, it wouldn't be spilling over to Bounties because the rewards aren't particularly difficult to get and within a week or two, you would have gotten everything you need from bounties. The reason why people still do it though is because it's "free stuff while I mine and fish". Leechers were a thing before and they were a problem then, but people weren't coming up with solutions on how to pretend they're contributing to the squad based on subjective value of a few resources. 

Once again, the idea that it'll encourage co-op play is only tied to organized groups. Even then, it's on DE's discretion as to whether or not they want people to be able to completely bypass specifically implemented resources. The problem I'm saying this will bring is that that mentality will bleed into public games and be enforced by people with your line of thinking, that it is "a more effective way to play the game". And no, the root problem is bad behavior. The metric of "grind wall" is not a less than 5 is bad, greater than 5 is acceptable. It's something you can't realistically quantify to suddenly move something that is in the wrong into a gray area where you can wiggle your way around punishment. If a person only has 2 hours to play Warframe a day, is the grind wall suddenly an accepted reason why he can leech, what about a person with 8 hours, can he leech while mining and fishing because "grind wall".

Which is essentially capitulating to the bottom of the barrel with a poor consolation to people obsessed with obtaining every resource. Realistically, no one but the leecher wins when a solution that provides excuse and open avenues is pushed. As said, you get to bypass fishing and mining for now but once you're done, you don't need someone fishing and mining in bounties. When they're done, they just move on to the next thing they can cheese or cheat out. You set a precedent that it's acceptable to queue for bounties for any reason because "it's contributing" which will come back to bite us when you exclusive rewards back into these bounties.

No, it falls apart whenever anything exclusive gets added back into those areas. Once again, if mining and fishing was the real "grind wall", they would be trying to leech of that, which isn't currently possible. You're giving people too much credit.

Well I disagree with it being pointless now. If people already had what they wanted to fish/mine leechers would no longer be a problem either. 

"How u percieve a grindwall is not an excuse" doesn't really matter. Ur gonna pm a leecher and roast them that they are lazy and need to put in the work? No, cuz they don't give a gaf. I'm saying people will be manipulative whether it's reasonable or not, and the massive grand wall in both open worlds is the cause of that. 

Which it is. If farming all that stuff and getting everything u need in fortuna took you only 2 weeks then WOW. You are phenomenal my friend. Or I'm just bad. U can't change the fact tho that people percieve the grind wall differently based on their time, level of play, and conception of the payoff. Whether it should be some way or another, it isn't, in reality. 

The fact is, the large grind walls presented by POE and fortuna put pressure on casual players and hardcore ones alike to get what they want. It's natural for them to want, and as you say people's bad behaviour comes out when they percieve that goal to be unnecessarily hard to achieve. This doesn't have to be right or fair or reasonable, it's natural. That's why the root cause is the grind (fair or not) bc there will always be those players in this game who find a dishonest way to obtain, if they didn't exist it wouldn't be humanity lol. I'm just saying let's not fight that bc they will always be there biding their time till the next grind, unless you want them to leave the game. 

I don't think it will be limited to clan/friends play. Like I said just post in recruit chat for a tier 5 bounty + fish game and boom. After this is implemented people will share the news, and a new farming meta will develop. The point is that, the more people find a legitimate avenue for their leeching, now defined as a dedicated squad, the less it 1) becomes leeching, and 2) harms others, bc less go into pub. I mean its not hard to imagine a dedicated squad performing better as far as fishing/mining/killing than a hodgepodge of randos in a public squad doing the same. 

And yeah there's no realistic gray area for where the grind wall should go, but there's an estimate. DE should have some grasp on this, and to a lesser degree experienced/well connected players. In the first place the only thing a game can ever do is try to appeal to it's target majority, not please everyone. The target majority here is casuals, who I'd bet are most likely to leech (Imho).

Generally speaking, leechers will still exist after this change. But they do now, and unless u str8 push them out of warframe, they will continue to do so. But id say it's reasonable to assume that after a period of time their frequency would be reduced, and their damage too, as less leechers and players alike are incentivised to play bounties because they are done with them. What I'm saying is that in net, we will be better off overall with this change. 

As for your last two paragraphs, I'll go back to my original argument a few posts ago. U would define it as pandering to the bottom of the barrel if we let them do this, but I'd say: After this change, it would be largely redefined. If this proposal changes the farming meta, it wouldn't even defined as bad anymore. Yes in the short term it'd be like we capitulated, but its a long term solution. 

And yes they will occssionally put exclusive rewards into the bounties, but from that point this just means the grind will be easier. If anyone still is farming resources by that point they are a relatively new player, which there will always be some of. The bounty will reward the same relics, same chance, but some newbie (relatively) will be better off. And either way, the leechers exist now for the reasons you or I have stated, and likely won't stop. If they are gonna leech anyway, we could fight and push them out, or co-opt their efforts.

As for the slippery slope aspect, I guess I trust DE to put and keep their foot down after this change as far as capitulating to people's relative lack of effort. 

Edit: I guess im saying what I have been. That this change will redefine what is wrong or right when it happens. When/if it does, it won't be considered circumventing the grind to mine in a bounty. It's just the new way to play the game, and will thus lose that negative connotation and any side effects associated with it. It would mainly hinge on how DE presents the solution if they implement this or any permutation. If they present it as a functional change to ease the grind, it will be taken as such. If they present as a leecher solution, it will be deemed as capitulation.

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We don't need solution for leechers.
We need solution for ppl that cry about leechers.

 

Anyway

Look at you guys.



You don't wan't fairplay here, you wan't punishment for others.
And i say, why make someone get less or nothing or punish him if we could get more?

Like we are not doing bounties for ourself, we do it for our squad.
So why does someone in squad fish or mine only for him self and not for squad?
 

It should be like that if i make bounty and you get the reward for it even so you did not help, then why i should not get same fish you catch? Or stone you mined?
Why you don't demand fair distribution, but you do demand limited distribution?

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at the risk of upsetting a few peeps - posts like this advertising everything that makes a leecher is only adding to the pile of people who think its a good idea. The first post here highlights several things that some players will look at and think - "ooh i'll try that - mission rewards and free roam rewards"

In the absence of DE doing anything the best thing we can do is not to advertise how to be a leecher - IMHO

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On 2018-11-28 at 3:54 PM, (PS4)negativ21 said:

Lots of stuff

First, I abbreviated the quote because there was too much. I only want to respond to what was said to me... As I have stated, I make exception for low level players. I know they aren't going to be as fast. Im talking about people how farm during what is supposed to be speed missions. When Im in an Excavation or survival, I always go at least rotation C.  If the group is having trouble after rotation C, Im not going to let people die and lose affinity. A good example of what Im talking about is the guy that's farming canisters when everyone else is at exit. Or the guy in Fortuna that doesnt help with the missions and is fishing or mining. I solo content when Im looking for things like that.

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On 2018-11-28 at 4:54 PM, (PS4)negativ21 said:

Most of these, like any should statement, is subjective. People should, but will they? We know that irl people don't gaf. I propose to coerce and control the leechers instead of fightng them. A far more efficient solution. As I said I don't really mind, but u seem to be rejecting my proposal on principal and (dare I say it) personal feelings rather than benefit and effect. 

but then we are back to these points ive already made before:

  • leeching is intolerable in any game. anyone who leeches thus far does not deserve a solution that benefits themselves and people who are participating in the bounty. the people participating in the bounty do not deserve any fish, resources, or animals Leechers pick up because they did not pick a bounty to obtain those things.
  • loot sharing is inconsistent with how the game currently works. if you want something, you do it yourself. if a rare item drops somewhere, hope to some higher power or science that someone marks it so that you can pick it up yourself. if you want fish, you fish yourself. if you want to mine, you mine yourself. if you want to save animals, you save animals yourself. the only thing that should be shared is the completion rewards, which is completely different.
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3 hours ago, ThumpumGood said:

First, I abbreviated the quote because there was too much. I only want to respond to what was said to me... As I have stated, I make exception for low level players. I know they aren't going to be as fast. Im talking about people how farm during what is supposed to be speed missions. When Im in an Excavation or survival, I always go at least rotation C.  If the group is having trouble after rotation C, Im not going to let people die and lose affinity. A good example of what Im talking about is the guy that's farming canisters when everyone else is at exit. Or the guy in Fortuna that doesnt help with the missions and is fishing or mining. I solo content when Im looking for things like that.

So i do actually understand where you are coming from. I have had leecher's in bounties before, and have been frustrated. But you can't really do anything about those people ya know. Its just like irl, people will be ill-natured because they are and they will be adamant about it. I just don't think fighting them is the best solution. Also there's the whole argument about the steep POE/Fortuna grind which is subjective I guess but also telling. 

For me, someone holding up a mission when I am trying to rush is a pain, but that doesn't really happen that often, and if it does its not in bounties but alerts and the like. For me time has never been the main factor when it comes to leeches, just the feeling of being taken advantage of. 

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