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We have too many types of resources


Tazdingoo
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I feel that with every new update, we get more and more new resources. Resources that were not available in the game yet and you have to farm from these from the content that was added in the update. Why can't we have the resources to be more streamlined? I have tons of orokin cells and nano spores that I don't know what to do with them.

Once in a while, I come across a blueprint that needs these overloaded resources and I'm like "Yay, finally. Something to clear these." but then there's always that one particular resource in the blueprint that can only be retrieved from a certain content on the map. Be it archwing, fortuna or the plains.

Why can't we have all the materials work in like a tree method? Where to craft a type of material, it requires you to have a set of other materials?

Let's take your generic mmo for example. Or in this case, Guild Wars 2 since that's one mmo I'm familiar with.

 

You get leather from killing enemies, after gathering 10 leather, you can split it into 20 leather strips, once you have 20 leather strips, you can craft a leather brace.

You get iron ore from killing enemies, after gathering 10 iron ores, you get iron tins. Once you have 10 iron tins, you can craft an armor plate.

Put the armor plate and leather brace together and you get a gauntlet.

If you want that new armour that came with a recent update, you still use the same recipe but with a bit of variation in terms of what material you need.

 

In the same way, warframe could have different tiers of resources. Where each higher tier material would need a large amount of the lower tier material (Looking at how I'm sure some of us have almost 500k of these things). 

Now, I know some of you would be thinking that it would just make people zoom to new gears easily. One way I can think of managing this is DE would have to increase the amount needed for each resource. Maybe to the point where you may need 5 million of a low tier resource to craft lets say 10 of a higher tier.

Also, some of the materials would have to be time-gated. Meaning some materials can only crafted once a day or takes 2 days to craft into a higher tier resource. Similar to how ascended materials in Guild Wars 2 are controlled.

 

Just some suggestions for DE instead of introducing a new resource to farm in one spot with every content drop.

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34 minutes ago, Tazdingoo said:

Maybe to the point where you may need 5 million of a low tier resource to craft lets say 10 of a higher tier.

People are sitting on millions of the "old" resources from farming the game for over 5 years. If that were used for new content, new players would be at an insurmountable disadvantage in crafting new weapons and frames.

Either new players have a decent time in crafting things or they get completely locked out.

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There are two competing forces here: everyone should be able to get each new item in a reasonable amount of time (Hema notwithstanding); and people shouldn't get new items too fast (unless they pay platinum). Make new items cost millions of nano spores? You've just shut out new players. Make new items only cost nano spores? You've ensured that everyone MR3 and above is getting the new weapon on release day, and no one's buying it with platinum.

Solution: make new item cost new resources. Everyone takes the same amount of time to get the new item: veterans have to grind for it, and it's within the grasp of new players as well. In practice, it's still skewed towards veterans, as they have the infrastructure and experience to farm more efficiently than a new player, but it's much more balanced than the alternative.

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I think "resource sinks" in the style of what Ticker provides would be great to have more of.

Also, the way rebuilding the Strata Relay was done is still a bit of a disappointment to me,
I was hoping it'd be a competition to see who can contribute the most resources (of already existing types),
with the top 20 or so getting immortalized via ... dunno, maybe some kind of gold plaque
(or, three of those, one each for Clan / Alliance / single contributor) by the entrance or something.

The dream would of course be if we could somehow channel Nano Spores & co into Conclave Standing lol.

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5 hours ago, GrayArchon said:

Solution:

Solution: Detach killing enemies and resource drops. We have lockers and special resource nodes in missions, that serve alsmost no purpose in game. Let resources drop only from those. With this change a player that has killed 100k enemies won't have stockpiled resources if he does not dedicated resource activities.

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1 hour ago, ShortCat said:

Solution: Detach killing enemies and resource drops. We have lockers and special resource nodes in missions, that serve alsmost no purpose in game. Let resources drop only from those. With this change a player that has killed 100k enemies won't have stockpiled resources if he does not dedicated resource activities.

The game's core gameplay, outside of the Landscape areas, is run-and-gun: killing enemies and killing them fast. Anything you need to obtain in the game, you do by killing enemies. Breaking up this formula is a bad idea, I think.

Also, this wouldn't do anything to get rid of the millions of players who currently have stupid amounts of nano spores and alloy plate.

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2 hours ago, ShortCat said:

Solution: Detach killing enemies and resource drops. We have lockers and special resource nodes in missions, that serve alsmost no purpose in game. Let resources drop only from those. With this change a player that has killed 100k enemies won't have stockpiled resources if he does not dedicated resource activities.

That is a dangerous idea.

Warframe is a looter and the entirety of the game revolves around getting stupid amounts of resources and proceed to spend said resources on better gear to earn more resources.

If you restrict looting to lockers only, you break that chain. The meta would shift to "complete the objective as fast as possible and run around the map spamming the X button for the next 10 minutes". Weapons mean nothing anymore to efficiency farmers.

I forsee a mass exodus of players if this idea gets implemented. This kind of thinking should not be allowed to bud in the community.

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17 hours ago, GrayArchon said:

Breaking up this formula is a bad idea, I think.

17 hours ago, Cephalycion said:

That is a dangerous idea.

Guys, it is already here. It came with PoE. Fish and gems do not drop from enemies. Alertium is another example.

17 hours ago, Cephalycion said:

If you restrict looting to lockers only, you break that chain. The meta would shift to "complete the objective as fast as possible and run around the map spamming the X button for the next 10 minutes".

This did not happen and will not happen. Enemies will still drop mods and Endo, currency much more valuable than ferrite or controle modules. The core gameplay will not shift, it will just create a side activity to gather resources precisely when you need them - just like fishing or miming.

OP complained about huge stockpiles and persistent reintroduction of new currencies. Implemented from the beginning, this gathering mechanic would not devalue old currencies and greatly reduce stockpiling potential, without necessity of huge sinks in the game. Can it reduce already existing stockpiles? No, and neither does the actual course of the game. The problem is deterioration and I do not see even one post adressing it.

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2 hours ago, ShortCat said:

Guys, it is already here. It came with PoE. Fish and gems do not drop from enemies. Alertium is another example.

This did not happen and will not happen. Enemies will still drop mods and Endo, currency much more valuable than ferrite or controle modules. The core gameplay will not shift, it will just create a side activity to gather resources precisely when you need them - just like fishing or miming.

OP complained about huge stockpiles and persistent reintroduction of new currencies. Implemented from the beginning, this gathering mechanic would not devalue old currencies and greatly reduce stockpiling potential, without necessity of huge sinks in the game. Can it reduce already existing stockpiles? No, and neither does the actual course of the game. The problem is deterioration and I do not see even one post adressing it.

Imagine if you had to go fishing for orokin cells and it no longer drops from enemies.

Limiting the acquisition of any material to "side activities" will make it a mindless grindfest.

Again, mass exodus of players, dangerous idea, should be crushed at birth.

Edited by Cephalycion
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3 hours ago, Cephalycion said:

Imagine if you had to go fishing for orokin cells and it no longer drops from enemies. 

Since enemies would not drop resources, drop chance from lockers or spawn rate of special nodes should be increased naturally. Now one missin could yeld enough ressources for one weapon if you dedicate one run to it. Right now, only new players open all lockers, because they do not know it better. If big part of players ignore them, they might as well not exist in the first place. It would give them purpose.

4 hours ago, Cephalycion said:

Limiting the acquisition of any material to "side activities" will make it a mindless grindfest.

Again, mass exodus of players, dangerous idea, should be crushed at birth. 

I do not see people complaining or leaving Warframe on mass deu to gem or fish grind. It is the exact same principle. It is already partially here, what are you talking about? Do you have more of those hypothetical doomsday non-arguments? You are also free to present a better solution to prevent stickpiling and deterioration.

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13 hours ago, ShortCat said:

This did not happen and will not happen. Enemies will still drop mods and Endo, currency much more valuable than ferrite or controle modules. The core gameplay will not shift, it will just create a side activity to gather resources precisely when you need them - just like fishing or miming.

If I need polymer bundles or neural sensors or rubedo, I don't go farm it. I haven't farmed those things in years. I just draw on my stockpile I've acquired from killing enemies in the course of normal gameplay. I haven't been running many missions on Saturn or Ceres, so now I have to go farm Orokin cells since every Prime weapon takes like 10 O-cells, and it's super annoying. If I had to farm for resources on a regular basis, it would drastically affect my enjoyment of the game. The focus right now is on killing things, not gathering resources. You get resources as a bonus. Even dedicated farming doesn't involve opening lockers really; it involves killing enemies efficiently and adjusting the drop chances with Nekros, Hydroid, Atlas, etc. It's very different from mining and fishing, because:

1) Those are dedicated minigames made exclusively for gathering resources. They were designed to provide a modicum of enjoyment in the act of doing them. Opening a locker is not a minigame; it's pressing X.

2) The PoE and OV resource grinds are fairly closed circuits. You only need Plains resources for Zaws and Amps, and only need Vallis resources for Kitguns and Moas. Sure, there's some mastery there, and a non-Mote Amp makes a world of difference in Operator combat, but if you ignored those for the whole game you'd see no change to your game experience, other than some annoyance during a couple story quests (not elaborating for spoiler reasons).

6 hours ago, ShortCat said:

I do not see people complaining or leaving Warframe on mass deu to gem or fish grind. It is the exact same principle.

There were plenty of vocal complaints about how self-contained the PoE grind was back when it came out. It's died down now as people sort of accepted it, but again: you don't need to do PoE. Plenty of players just ignore the Landscape content because their CPUs can't run it, or they just don't like it, or they already finished the grind. They've still got the rest of the game to not worry about gathering resources. If that was taken away from them, maybe some would leave.

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I personally feel resources in their current implementation are fundamentally misaligned with Warframe: in a game balanced around linear progress and some finite completion time, being able to accrue and manage resources can work, because you'd be saving up and using resources for predefined moments, whether it be crafting valuable items or using a consumable for an important fight. In any game where content can be replayed without resetting one's playthrough, i.e. any game with grinding capabilities, that falls apart, because eventually you end up accumulating so many resources that they cease to matter: whichever items you need from them, particularly items that only need to be crafted once, end up no longer having any real restrictions, so the entire crafting system inevitably just boils down to pressing an extra button to get the item you want. This is the case with Warframe and most of its resources, and even with Fortuna, many players are now reaching a point where they have enough Vallis-specific resources for most crafting costs to not matter.

In the end, as much as resources in Warframe have some value in that they contribute to its world-building, and pose an initial gate to newer players, they eventually cease to present any useful function when they can be stockpiled infinitely, and obtained without even trying to collect them. Short of making every resource decay like Argon, a game in which players can accrue an unlimited amount of resources is a game where players eventually can craft whichever item they want without much of a time or effort requirement. This in turn creates a conundrum for DE: if they make crafting costs accessible enough for a newer player to be able to complete them in reasonable time, the item essentially has no crafting cost to veterans. If DE wants to make veterans work to craft or research an item, e.g. by slapping on some ridiculously high resource cost somewhere (such as 5k Mutagen Samples for the Hema or 30k Cryotic for the Sibear), that item's going to look ridiculously inaccessible to newcomers, and only impresses upon them the grindy nature of the game. Effectively, the game's resource and crafting systems are broken, as they are impossible to balance for all players at the same time, and do not fit the way the game is intended to be replayed almost endlessly.

Ultimately, I think progression through obtaining items will always be linear and finite, so DE may as well cut out the middle man and let us obtain full weapons, frames, etc. one way or another, through any of the game's myriad drop tables, or perhaps by adding some more time-consuming challenges to simulate resource accumulation and crafting costs. However, resources themselves could perhaps still play a role if each resource served a specific purpose, and always had a strong reason to be consumed as soon as it is obtained. Back when the Strata Relay was being reconstructed, for example, the event could have easily been changed to let players contribute infinite amounts of the resources that appeared then, and it'd be great for immersion if part of our missions involved obtaining resources one way or another, e.g. through excavations, raids on enemy bases or ships, excursions into the Void, etc., in order to satisfy a very specific goal (e.g. Cryotic to help cool the Vallis). What this means is that Warframe needs to readjust progression under a framework that makes each part of it into a meaningful challenge, adapted to the player's degree of mastery, whereas pervasive environmental elements should play into a less personal, and truly endlessly replayable system of gameplay and mission incentives.

Edited by Teridax68
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10 hours ago, GrayArchon said:

If I need polymer bundles or neural sensors or rubedo, I don't go farm it. I haven't farmed those things in years. I just draw on my stockpile I've acquired from killing enemies in the course of normal gameplay.

Thats kinda the point! If you never have to farm them, what purpose do those resources serve in a game? And...

17 hours ago, ShortCat said:

You are also free to present a better solution to prevent stickpiling and deterioration.

 

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40 minutes ago, ShortCat said:

Thats kinda the point! If you never have to farm them, what purpose do those resources serve in a game? And...

 

As much as we openly admit Warframe is a farming game, I myself personally don't appreciate the effort to make it even more "farming simulator" like. Warframe is already a farmfest as it is, and I can safely say that fishing or mining are not the most enjoyable parts of the game. In fact, I shy away from those activities because they remind me of the grind.

Warframe hides it farm-like nature with the disguise of a horde shooter where killing enemies feels good and satisfying, and it has pretty much succeeded so far.

I find killing enemies more fun than farming hardcore, and if you really want to click a button repeatedly and watch numbers go up then maybe you should buy farming simulator.

Edit: Also, if you hide valuable resources behind such a monotonous farmwall then players will see it as a frustration and never come back to that "gamemode" after they've acquired enough of the resource.

Edited by Cephalycion
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Pedastal Prime is a million credit sink. Baro needs to bring more ridiculous useless items like that which consume a million of some resource that vets have stockpiles of to craft. Prisma iron throne? One million alloy plate. Fancy prisma chandelier? One million nano spores. Heck, let's have a ridiculous statue that can be made that uses 100 argon crystals or something.

I'm actually going to go make this a separate thread too now I thought of it.

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On 2018-11-24 at 7:08 AM, peterc3 said:

People are sitting on millions of the "old" resources from farming the game for over 5 years. If that were used for new content, new players would be at an insurmountable disadvantage in crafting new weapons and frames.

Either new players have a decent time in crafting things or they get completely locked out.

I genuinely do not understand the mentality that new players shouldn't be at a disadvantage in a non-competitive game. 

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On 2018-11-24 at 8:08 AM, peterc3 said:

new players would be at an insurmountable disadvantage in crafting new weapons and frames.

Hema?

Vauban?

Rivens?

My question is: So what if new players are disadvantaged? Should every new player be gifted Maiming Strike so they could also slide-attack their way to level 300 mobs? They have to get there by farming or trading. And if they aren't spoiled or lazy, they'll get there eventually, just like all current veterans have right now.

If this game was PVP, I'd really understand this argument, but in this case, it's just argument for the sake of argument. Pointless.

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4 hours ago, deothor said:

Hema?

Vauban?

Rivens?

There are literally dozens of other weapons to get before Hema. Vauban's pieces are up to Alert RNG and Vauban P. is a long term goal vs. the random nature of his vanilla version.

Rivens have no place in a discussion about new players at a crafting resource disadvantage because there is 100%, absolutely, no content, especially not that which new players are playing, that requires Rivens to play or participate in.

5 hours ago, deothor said:

My question is: So what if new players are disadvantaged? Should every new player be gifted Maiming Strike so they could also slide-attack their way to level 300 mobs? They have to get there by farming or trading. And if they aren't spoiled or lazy, they'll get there eventually, just like all current veterans have right now.

If this game was PVP, I'd really understand this argument, but in this case, it's just argument for the sake of argument. Pointless.

This proposal is not merely a slight disadvantage. It would mean old players get things near instantaneously and new players have to farm as much as the old players did over a long time, in a much shorter amount of time to play the same content at the same time.

Invoking the fact the game isn't PvP to shield an idea from questions about balance and grind is, frankly, stupid, and requires that you ignore the actual, long term, health of the game vs. your "needs" as a player in the relative short term.

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@peterc3 I tried to come up with some reasonable reply, but anything I'd write you'd treat as an attack on your intelligence.

A system that has good and fair sinkhole is better for the game than catering everything to new players because they might have just a little bit too much to grind (and even then I'm guessing the grind they'd have to go through would be the same as veterans gone through).

 

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