Remake Dread bow, its prettybad longterm weapon.

[Ada_Wong_SG]

7 minutes ago, Arcira said:

It isn´t really the dps rather then the rng factor that bothers me. After some time you will have the same results in overall damage from slow and high fire rate if the base damage is the same. However you lack control over the distribution it´s much more impactful to "waste" your proc on a trash mob or lack them on a heavy unit compared to a weapon with smaller but more consistent hits.

Same for Multishot. 150% is a rather unfortunate value for bows as well because you just have a 50% chance for a 3rd projectile in which case your rng heavily affects your dps. At least Dread can have 100%+ crit chance easily. On some other bows you have to handle 3 layer of rng without riven mod which makes predicting or even testing your average damage output nearly impossible.

That's why Dread, i guess Paris Prime which have over 100% crit with Point Strike is good in my view for HM build,
the over 100% crit is what I am looking at, or on rifles I usually throw in Argon Scope 
So the multishot that 2 - 3 hits is all critical hits.

While using the 100% crit + multishot to iron out the RNG factor in Hunter Munitions
to make the damage output more consistent.

Which is also why I recommend punch through since you can shoot through multiple enemies 
and killing a heavy gunner behind a lancer without wasting those proc.

[rapt0rman]

1 hour ago, Ada_Wong_SG said:

Dread's slash proc by default does less damage than Hunter Munitions 
The Dread's normal slash proc is significantly weaker against armored unit, which IMO is the only weak aspect of this weapon
without a Hunter Munitions build.

Not sure where you're getting this from, all slash procs deal true damage and ignore armor. Hunter Munition's slash procs are functionally no different than any other slash proc other then the method of triggering it.

(That aside I do use HM on my Dread)

Edited November 26, 2018 by rapt0rman

[Ada_Wong_SG]

30 minutes ago, rapt0rman said:

Not sure where you're getting this from, all slash procs deal true damage and ignore armor. Hunter Munition's slash procs are functionally no different than any other slash proc other then the method of triggering it.

(That aside I do use HM on my Dread)

I just tested this out, the slash proc with and without hunter munitions on Dread seems to be true damage.
And a significant drop in slash proc rate on Paris Prime as opposed to Dread.

I do notice that there is slight difference in the number, maybe because dread main damage on slash that
a Hunter Munitions slash proc just add too little damage from puncture and impact.

meaning a regular slash proc vs HM slash proc number didn't really have a huge gap.

on weapons like Tiberon Prime where slash damage is not the highest number 
the regular slash proc does register a lower number compared to HM

It is however noted that without Hunter Munition the bleeding is not as profuse on Dread
so I just love the Dread even more now *kisses dread* 

Edited November 26, 2018 by Ada_Wong_SG

[rapt0rman]

3 minutes ago, Ada_Wong_SG said:

I just tested this out, the slash proc with and without hunter munitions on Dread seems to be true damage.
And a significant drop in slash proc rate on Paris Prime as opposed to Dread.

I do notice that there is slight difference in the number, maybe because dread main damage on slash that
a Hunter Munitions slash proc just add too little damage from puncture and impact.

meaning a regular slash proc vs HM slash proc number didn't really have a huge gap.

on weapons like Tiberon Prime where slash damage is not the highest number 
the regular slash proc does register a lower number compared to HM

It is however noted that without Hunter Munition the bleeding is not as profuse on Dread
so I just love the Dread even more now *kisses dread* 

I think you should probably read up on slash procs on the wiki https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/Damage/Slash_Damage (everything on that page is accurate and thourougly tested over the years)

The I/P/S distribution of a weapon has no effect on a slash procs damage (whether from Hunter Munitions or otherwise), it does however effect it's chance to proc slash through status chance (which is why Paris Prime has a much lower chance to proc slash normally)

[Arcira]

1 hour ago, Ada_Wong_SG said:

That's why Dread, i guess Paris Prime which have over 100% crit with Point Strike is good in my view for HM build,
the over 100% crit is what I am looking at, or on rifles I usually throw in Argon Scope 
So the multishot that 2 - 3 hits is all critical hits.

While using the 100% crit + multishot to iron out the RNG factor in Hunter Munitions
to make the damage output more consistent.

Which is also why I recommend punch through since you can shoot through multiple enemies 
and killing a heavy gunner behind a lancer without wasting those proc.

I did some calculations. It can be slightly higher but also lower dps depending on which mod you switch. I think it´s clear Serration and multishot and crit mods are not debatable so I ignored them for the calculations. Same for corrosion elementals.

That leaves 2 slots one of which should be a fire rate and the other one an additional elemental mod. I can´t recommend switching the fire rate mod because even the worst one does provide more total dps. Theoretical the hunter mod provides ~ 8% more dps compared to a +90% elemental but wheter you want more consistent damage or bet on your luck is a matter of taste I guess. Actually If you are very lucky you can have more than average damage compared to the regular build because you have more rng elements. However it could be the other way around as well.

Nonetheless if you have access to a riven mod there isnt really a reason to use hunter munition even if you are blessed by rngesus.

Edited November 26, 2018 by Arcira

[Ada_Wong_SG]

5 hours ago, rapt0rman said:

I think you should probably read up on slash procs on the wiki https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/Damage/Slash_Damage (everything on that page is accurate and thourougly tested over the years)

The I/P/S distribution of a weapon has no effect on a slash procs damage (whether from Hunter Munitions or otherwise), it does however effect it's chance to proc slash through status chance (which is why Paris Prime has a much lower chance to proc slash normally)

Thanks, that explained a lot why putting slash mods in does not seems to buff up the damage, 
as well as why sometime the number seems higher than it should for some weapons when slash proc occurs.

And also how to go about building weapons for slash procs especially secondaries since
there is no hunter munition for pistol.

[DatDarkOne]

9 hours ago, rapt0rman said:

I think you should probably read up on slash procs on the wiki https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/Damage/Slash_Damage (everything on that page is accurate and thourougly tested over the years)

The I/P/S distribution of a weapon has no effect on a slash procs damage (whether from Hunter Munitions or otherwise), it does however effect it's chance to proc slash through status chance (which is why Paris Prime has a much lower chance to proc slash normally)

This is why I consider Hunter's to be somewhat redundant on the Dread.  

No offense meant Ada.  😁 It's just that the Dread is already innately a Slash Proc weapon.  So, doesn't really need Hunters to make it do slash procs like other non slash based weapons.  

[rapt0rman]

46 minutes ago, DatDarkOne said:

This is why I consider Hunter's to be somewhat redundant on the Dread.  

No offense meant Ada.  😁 It's just that the Dread is already innately a Slash Proc weapon.  So, doesn't really need Hunters to make it do slash procs like other non slash based weapons.  

Here's the thing though, neither through status chance or HM is it possible to reach 100% status chance on the Dread. And even if you could, it still wouldn't be 100% chance to proc slash. And on slow(ish) firing, slash based weapons like the Dread, every time you don't proc slash you aren't doing optimal damage.

While there's some overlap when both your status chance and HM try to proc slash on the same bullet (which is impossible sadly), it really does help fill in the gaps when one or the other doesn't proc. Especially if you have an element in the mix like Viral, since you can proc that and slash on the same bullet with a status proc/HM proc combo.

[DatDarkOne]

3 hours ago, rapt0rman said:

While there's some overlap when both your status chance and HM try to proc slash on the same bullet (which is impossible sadly), it really does help fill in the gaps when one or the other doesn't proc. Especially if you have an element in the mix like Viral, since you can proc that and slash on the same bullet with a status proc/HM proc combo.

I use multishot to overcome that little problem.  😁

Using the Daikyu alot showed me how to get multiple status effects with one shot using multishot.  

In all honesty though, I'm usually doing so much single shot damage when using bows in combo with Prowl's headshot bonus that the bleed damage is usually irrelevant.  This is taking into account that I rarely face enemies over level 110+ without using combination tactics such as sleep, melee, stealth multipliers, etc anyway.  

Edited November 26, 2018 by DatDarkOne

[rapt0rman]

1 hour ago, DatDarkOne said:

I use multishot to overcome that little problem.  😁

Using the Daikyu alot showed me how to get multiple status effects with one shot using multishot.  

In all honesty though, I'm usually doing so much single shot damage when using bows in combo with Prowl's headshot bonus that the bleed damage is usually irrelevant.  This is taking into account that I rarely face enemies over level 110+ without using combination tactics such as sleep, melee, stealth multipliers, etc anyway.  

This is taking multishot into consideration (Split Chamber and Vigilante Armaments), the difference between Daikyu and Dread is the 50% vs 20% base status chance. Even utilising multishot, status chance, and HM, its still not unusual for me to not proc anything at all.

I guess to specify, if you are specifically building the Dread for slash procs, HM is a perfectly viable choice.

Edited November 26, 2018 by rapt0rman

[DatDarkOne]

15 minutes ago, rapt0rman said:

I guess to specify, if you are specifically building the Dread for slash procs, HM is a perfectly viable choice.

To me, using HM on the Dread is like adding more status chance to a weapon that already has 100% status (this is just an analogy for reference).  Diminishing returns kinda thing.  

[rapt0rman]

42 minutes ago, DatDarkOne said:

To me, using HM on the Dread is like adding more status chance to a weapon that already has 100% status (this is just an analogy for reference).  Diminishing returns kinda thing.  

Ok but that's a weird analogy to use considering it's directly relevant and specifically not what's happening. The combined multishot and status chance is at most only a buffer to make it more likely to get at least one slash proc per shot, there's still no guarantees of anything, let alone the probability of a second or third slash proc from the same shot.

The amount of slash procs you get on average from a non-HM Dread simply isn't its peak efficiency, if slash procs are what you're building for, it really does have the potential to do better.

Edited November 26, 2018 by rapt0rman

[(PSN)Lei-Lei_23]

To be honest, Hunter Munitions on the Dread is perfectly viable. Here you have a second instance in which you can proc Bleed, which is crits, and multishot can crit. So outside of however much status chance you have on the Dread, you’ll have more instances in which you can apply more Bleed procs.

I don’t see any diminishing returns on this matter as long as you have enough overall damage outside of elementals to compensate for the Bleed procs. It only goes to show how many more possibilities you can apply more Bleed procs into the enemy, which is a good thing.

Remember, it’s not a matter of only applying a single Bleed proc on the enemy. You can always apply more than one on them, and they’ll die faster. It’s not like Viral status where you extend the timer of halving enemy’s overall health, Bleed procs behave like Corrosive where multiple can be active in tandem with one another.

Hunter Munitions is a boon regardless of what you’re taking out, as long as you have all of the required mods equipped.

[Bipp]

Hunter munitions is bad but hammer shot isn't?

>An extra, completely independent 30% chance to roll slash for every arrow that you fire that doesn't compete with viral or slash damage weight already modded onto the weapon
>an extra 8% status chance from hammer shot and measly 60% crit damage

???

 

Edited December 2, 2018 by Bipp

[DatDarkOne]

17 minutes ago, Bipp said:

Hunter munitions is bad but hammer shot isn't?

>An extra, completely independent 30% chance to roll slash for every arrow that you fire that doesn't compete with viral or slash damage weight already modded onto the weapon
>an extra 8% status chance from hammer shot and measly 60% crit damage

???

The idea is that because the Dread already has massive Slash as it's base damage and fairly good status chance, then just it's status chance would proc bleed at about the same rate as using Hunter's Munitions on it.  Some feel that the increase using Hunter's is worth it, while others like myself feel that it's redundant.  Neither is wrong, but more so options on how one chooses to build to fit them. 

I do appreciate those giving me reasons for why they use it.  Ones that actually make sense. 😄 

[Bipp]

8 minutes ago, DatDarkOne said:

The idea is that because the Dread already has massive Slash as it's base damage and fairly good status chance, then just it's status chance would proc bleed at about the same rate as using Hunter's Munitions on it.  Some feel that the increase using Hunter's is worth it, while others like myself feel that it's redundant.  Neither is wrong, but more so options on how one chooses to build to fit them. 

I do appreciate those giving me reasons for why they use it.  Ones that actually make sense. 😄 

Choose the obviously worse option then. Just don't go around suggesting it's actually good 😄

[BloodAppraiser]

On 2018-11-26 at 1:16 AM, DatDarkOne said:

Why the heck are people putting Hunters Munitions on the Dread?  It's a wasted mod slot IMO.  The Dread already innately does about the same amount of slash procs with it's default status chance.  

Just increase it's status chance with Hammer Shot or 60/60 elementals if you're including elementals in your build.  Either of those would give a better result than hunters on the Dread.

Woah there! Let us crunch the numbers first before we jump to conclusions mate. Don't worry! I'm a math geek so I'm confident to keep this simple.

So the base stats :

crit chance: 50%

status chance: 20%

damage: 130

> impact: 6.5

> puncture: 6.5

> slash: 117

Now assuming that we slap on Point Strike and 2 60/60 elemental mods.

The current stats will be :

crit chance: 125%

status chance: 44%

damage: 286

> impact: 6.5

> puncture: 6.5

> slash: 117

> [elemental type]: 156

So the odds of proccing slash per arrow will be :

Equation: (slash * 4) / (IPS_damage * 4 + elemental_damage) * status_chance

(117 * 4) / (130 * 4 + 156) * 44%

= 30.46%

On the other hand, Hunter Munitions will have a 30% chance to proc a slash proc whenever the weapon crits and due to the fact that a single Point Strike would bring Dread's crit chance over 100%, meaning that Hunter Munitions will always grant 30% chance to proc slash damage per arrow.

It's all clear now. Hunter Munitions alone or 2 60/60 elemental mods have almost equivalent chances of proccing slash per arrow. But Hunter Munitions only takes up one mod slot while 2 60/60 elemental mods are required to meet the same potential.

P.S: 

I forgot to add the slash proccing potential per arrow of the base status chance to Hunter Munitions. The odds of proccing slash at base status chance wil be :

(117 * 4) / (130 * 4) * 20%

= 18%

So the combined pontential of proccing slash per arrow with Hunter Munitions and Dread's base status chance will be :

18% * 30% + (1 - 18%) * 30% + 18% * (1 - 30%)

= 42.6%

That's 12% higher than the 30.46% when utilizing 2 60/60 elemental mods. Well, I think it's quite clear now that Hunter Munitions is way more viable than 60/60 elemental mods on Dread. 🙃

Edited December 3, 2018 by BloodAppraiser
I forgot to add the slash proccing potential per arrow of the base status chance to Hunter Munitions

[Arcira]

I don´t see a practical use for bows. the combination of armor strip (corrosive) and base damage is far more efficient against high level enemies than building for slash procs. For regular content it doesn´t really matterwhat weapon you are using. In both cases weapons with fast fire rate are much more efficient. Against strong single targets like eidolons sniper rifles are far stronger because of there multiplier and hit scan properties.

Also aside from the fact that hunter munitions is kinda overrated in terms of dps slash damage in general has another disadvantage. Procs may ignore armor however some enemies are immune to status effects. Corrosive procs may not reduce the armor as well but the damage multiplier does apply. While slash has a negative multiplier corrosive on the other hand is quite strong agaisnt most armor types.

Anyway no matter in what situation Bows are inferior due to there low fire rate, projectile flight speed and average dps. In my opinion the way status works has to be changed drastically and the damage increased a little bit in order to bring them in line with other weapon types.