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broken game balance Catchmoon and new way to increase difficulty with patch 24.1.1.1


N2h2
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Have you ever tryed to do somthing in that game without taking a nuke frame or weapon?

I mean doing 1h kuva survival run without frames that prevent any annemies ability to hit the harvester, doing it without frame that nuke all the map using one ability, without using a weapon that have 10m radius AOE, to sum it up without using cheesy mechanics that make 1 player "playing" and 3 other waiting?
You should probabily try. Yes it's quite hard, but there is challenge, and guess what bring entertainment and fun to the game. Yes challenge.

I used to like sorties some time ago, because they were challenge. I used to like MOT survival, because there was challenge. Not so long ago, it was possible to find players that were able to sacrifice some "efficiency" (or call it $&*&*#(%&ed OP weapon / frame) to get fun. I try to do it on weekly basis, finding players that want to find that fun again, and i can assure you each time, even if some have hard time, everybody left satisfied.

What the issue with that kind of weapons? or frames abuse?
1 clic to nuke everything.... 1 other clic to nuke again everything...

What does remain? nothing, except if you find entertaining starting a game and being "afk" for hours because some players "ENJOY" there one shot everything tools.

Here is the problem about balance. Not at any time i was thinking about a nerf to the ground, which would be totally stupid. But slowing a bit this exponential rush for damage may be a good thing for the community.

Some already told it well. Players come to the game > rush for the most powerfull weapon > get it > spoil themself all the challenge and fun > leave... that's a factor that may ruin the community.

(And about toxic players and "Idiotic asses", maybe thoses are not players you think theses are. What if toxic player were thoses who can't stand some people can have a different opinion and feels insulting them is mendatory??? think a bit about it)

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I am not sure why people cry out for nerfs the whole time?  It's not a pvp game.  How does nerfing benefit people?

Due to the riven's nerf, I just use less weapons now and focus on the ones which hit like trucks still.  So the attempted aim of rivens is to make people use less popular weapons, yet all it does in reality is reduce the number of top tier weapons which people use.  Decent riven dispo does not make a crap weapon great.  I am not a fan of spin2win, but if people like it, fair enough, yet nerfing rivens when this is still a thing is strange as hell. 

99.9% of content is so easy and repetitive why would I want to bring weapons which make it harder and take more time?  You play a game like this to become as strong as you can and play warframes you enjoy. 

So called end game content removes the use of warframes.  Arbitrations drone mechanic makes spin2win the best form of offence, warframes offensive abilities become redundant, I thought warframe was about warframes, not operators and spinning with a mellee weapon.  Even the difficulty of arbitrations was nerfed prior to release.  Elite sanctuary onslaught putting a timer on no4 ability why? All it means is we stop at round 8, we dont trya nd test ourselves.  Tridolons use very specific frames and the operator does most of the action.

If there was hard enough content without having to sit in MOT for 2 hours then maybe nerfs would not be necessary.

As for the catchmoon yeh its strong as hell, but has disadvantages like the shot doing nothing if it even grazes an obstacle of any form.  Also like the arca plasmor it does not scale against armoured enemies, as it does not strip armor effectively.  And yes spin2win is still way more powerful in every way.

But the catchmoon is fun as hell atm, we all like seeing these numbers (mostly reserved again for spin2win), would I use it after a nerf probably not.

 

Edited by Offskii
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On 2018-11-26 at 12:07 PM, N2h2 said:

Have you ever tried to do something in that game without taking a nuke frame or weapon?

I mean doing 1h kuva survival run without frames that prevent any enemies ability to hit the harvester, doing it without frame that nuke all the map using one ability, without using a weapon that have 10m radius AOE, to sum it up without using cheesy mechanics that make 1 player "playing" and 3 other waiting?
You should probably try. Yes it's quite hard, but there is challenge, and guess what bring entertainment and fun to the game. Yes challenge.

I used to like sorties some time ago, because they were challenge. I used to like MOT survival, because there was challenge. Not so long ago, it was possible to find players that were able to sacrifice some "efficiency" (or call it $&*&*#(%&ed OP weapon / frame) to get fun. I try to do it on weekly basis, finding players that want to find that fun again, and i can assure you each time, even if some have hard time, everybody left satisfied.

What the issue with that kind of weapons? or frames abuse?
1 click to nuke everything.... 1 other click to nuke again everything...

What does remain? nothing, except if you find entertaining starting a game and being "afk" for hours because some players "ENJOY" there one shot everything tools.

Here is the problem about balance. Not at any time i was thinking about a nerf to the ground, which would be totally stupid. But slowing a bit this exponential rush for damage may be a good thing for the community.

Did something like this. One hour kuva survival with two limbos (that kept dying and I had to revive them WITHOUT THE CATA UP after the 40 min mark since they keep forgetting the stasis. Thank god I had Soul Survivor) and playing as Nekros. I was using my Nikana Prime. I did all the damage and no, it was not fun. All I got was a host migration and 0 kuva when the host crashed. Hard was not the way to put it across, rather tedious and annoying is the right way to describe it. I personally can never appreciate endurance runs because they don't actually get harder - they just get more annoying and tiring, especially when the lag kept spiking.

Challenge only brings fun and entertainment if you are the kind to seek it out and have some sort of subconscious taste for masochism. IRL I am someone who prepares everything in advance and works my ass off beforehand so when I do anything there is no challenge since I already solved the problem before getting to actually doing something about it. To me, "challenge" is a tedious and annoying thing that people needlessly give to themselves for no reason other than unnecessary self frustration.

On 2018-11-26 at 12:07 PM, N2h2 said:

Some already told it well. Players come to the game > rush for the most powerful weapon > get it > spoil themselves all the challenge and fun > leave... that's a factor that may ruin the community.

Please, explain why I have not left the game even though all the non meta crap is what I have left to master. If you like the game, you won't leave. If you hate it, no amount of gameplay, challenge or overpoweredness will persuade you to stay. I know someone real life who quit Warframe BECAUSE he couldn't press 4 to instant win anymore. Some people play the game just to bomb everything and kill stuff. Not everyone is a glutton for punishment.

The "community" you speak of is not a homogeneous population of people who think in the exact same fashion as each other. Many may share your opinion, but equally many have contradictory views. Don't speak for all, because you do not have the right.

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On 2018-11-25 at 1:21 AM, Shiichibukai said:

Please stop talking about Balance so much in a pve coop game. Let ppl enjoy what they grind for without making a whiney thread about how "broken" something is.

I think its to do with the old problem of content being too easy, thanks to the insane levels of power attainable. Maybe OP is saying that giving players access to weapons like this is just exacerbating the problem?

I mean, how long can it stay fun to massacre hordes of enemies, with little to no effort?

Games that aren't challenging in some way tend to lose their appeal after a while...for me certainly.

 

Edited by FlusteredFerret
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vor einer Stunde schrieb FlusteredFerret:

I think its to do with the old problem of content being too easy, thanks to the insane levels of power attainable. Maybe OP is saying that giving players access to weapons like this is just exacerbating the problem?

I mean, how long can it stay fun to massacre hordes of enemies, with little to no effort?

Games that aren't challenging in some way tend to lose their appeal after a while...for me certainly.

 

As long as they dont change the broken mod system, that problem will never go away and as long as they dont, im gonna enjoy murdering hordes of enemies. Thats what warframe is about.

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vor 5 Stunden schrieb AXCrusnik:

Because in multiplayer games, when people abuse OP weapons, their fun becomes the reason the rest of the team/players aren't having any, at that point you can ask yourself, is it better to have 3 people not having any fun so that one guy can? or have one guy upset for some period of time to please more players. Do we want everyone to be using the same weapon because the rest of the stuff we make available to them just can't compete? Or should we make certain weapons good at certain tasks while being bad/ok at others to create an interesting variety and maybe even require a smidge of thought when selecting a loadout.

That doesnt apply to someone who plays solo only so no, still rather have them not nerf stuff to the ground because of some ppl in pugs getting outkilled.

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On 2018-11-25 at 2:01 PM, N2h2 said:

We have here a weapon more powerfull than arca plasmor with close mechanics, crit chances over 100% without any riven. More than 35K overall damages when built for radiation. fast reload, no ammo issue, And the "worst part" ability to kill a lvl 165 grineer with a single shot.
There are about no downside on this kitgun. It blow any NPC, anihilate any boss, punch through 15 NPC in an alley like they are paper sheet you shot with a nuclear missile.

What parts are you using with the catchmoon to make it this powerful? 

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28 minutes ago, Shiichibukai said:

That doesnt apply to someone who plays solo only so no, still rather have them not nerf stuff to the ground because of some ppl in pugs getting outkilled.

Do we want everyone to be using the same weapon because the rest of the stuff we make available to them just can't compete? Or should we make certain weapons good at certain tasks while being bad/ok at others to create an interesting variety and maybe even require a smidge of thought when selecting a loadout.

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Aren't kitguns one of the only things interesting from Fortuna? Enough that the 3 "sentinelcorpus" energy lab weapons were lackluster. I don't wait a year for meaningless content.

On the other hand i can understand concerns about the new kitguns being able to ruin the progression feeling of new players (as if a free vectis prime wasn't awful enough). So i wouldn't mind either introducing weaker parts for low MRs and locking the stronger parts beyond a high MR requirement. Just throwing an idea out.

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On 2018-11-26 at 8:20 AM, Arniox said:

 What parts are you using with the catchmoon to make it this powerful? 

He's pretty much talking out of his ass. Even with primed heated charge and my riven with 180% damage, my catchmoon doesn't break 26k radiation damage. He's also bullS#&$ting about grineer because if he actually used the weapon himself instead of watching simulacrum videos with AI disabled, he'd notice that shooting level 165 grineer without stripping any armor off first will do less than 2000 damage.

The catchmoon falls off really hard vs grineer heavy units. It is unable to strip armor fast enough through corrosive procs (if you choose to mod this route) and the low magazine capacity and medium reload speed means you will die before doing any damage. Of course if a 165 heavy unit gets its armor completely stripped off before you attack then yes it will do a lot of damage, but that applies to all weapons. This guy is just calling for a nerf without actually having used the gun.

Edited by Daughteru
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Il y a 14 heures, Daughteru a dit :

This guy is just calling for a nerf without actually having used the gun.

Probably....

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And I use to call for nerf when I never used a weapon, like it, I'm sure  I won't have any chance to enjoy it...
And that's not even with somthing boosting pistol damages. Which can be put a lot more higher using pistol amp, madurai, and some arcan dedicated to pistol damage...

So yes, one shot on griner is a fact...

And OFC I'm not speaking about heavy gunners, why? because no weapon can OS 20 of it  in a line without stripping their armor at lvl 165 without getting any huge damage buff.
Still after more than one hour kuva farming you keep wiping an entire alley with a single shot... nop, not even sniper can do that, becaust it have not enought penetration and bullet radius.

And yes damage diminution with range seems to be a real downside... Even if you still one shoting everything, numbers are disapointing 🤣

9lcZpZC.jpg

Edited by N2h2
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On 2018-11-26 at 9:05 AM, Offskii said:

How does nerfing benefit people?

It makes the overall game experience better by providing more challenging/active content that everyone doesn't mindlessly steam roll and quickly grow bored with. It also makes it easier to design content (don't have to worry about players one-shotting your new end game boss, etc.). Not difficult to understand.

There's too great a disparity in power between newer players and long time players that often find themselves in the same mission. Lack of balance and reasonable limitations is one of the reasons why Warframe will never have a *good* boss fight, why we have to use the doperator for Eidolons, and why Arbitrations are all about find Waldo the drone.

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On 2018-11-24 at 8:21 PM, Shiichibukai said:

Please stop talking about Balance so much in a pve coop game. Let ppl enjoy what they grind for without making a whiney thread about how "broken" something is.

this completely idiotic stance, and the fact this guy got so many upvotes is what makes me dislike the WF community, and lose hope in this game's longevity (for me). cuz if the majority of the community doesnt want balance and meaningful endgame content, then DE won't offer that service. just look at the pathetic state of Conclave, Arbitrations and ESO.

have a look at The Division, which is also a looter shooter. balance is very important in its PVE, and the game is incredibly fun as a result. for example, why would I want anything else but the kitgun, when it's 1-shotting lvl 120's? broken-ness removes variety from the game. Division 2 and Anthem will LIKELY take pve/coop balance very seriously, and WF will bleed a lot of players next spring if the community and DE espouse this idiotic attitude.

Edited by Ikyr0
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On 2018-11-26 at 5:50 AM, kyori said:

Catchmoon is a new weapon that I enjoy killing enemies quick and in numbers because of this horde shooter. I'd hate it if some idiotic asses whine about it and DE nerf it. Those idiotic asses are public enemies.

every hack and slash/shooter looter has challenging content. except Warframe. WF's content is completely trivial, and there's nothing TO DO with the broken weapons/frames. other than sit in Mot or Arby for 2+ hrs. without challenge at SOME level, there is no purpose to anything in this game. you just end up grinding because youre addicted.

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vor 40 Minuten schrieb Ikyr0:

this completely idiotic stance, and the fact this guy got so many upvotes is what makes me dislike the WF community, and lose hope in this game's longevity (for me). cuz if the majority of the community doesnt want balance and meaningful endgame content, then DE won't offer that service. just look at the pathetic state of Conclave, Arbitrations and ESO.

have a look at The Division, which is also a looter shooter. balance is very important in its PVE, and the game is incredibly fun as a result. for example, why would I want anything else but the kitgun, when it's 1-shotting lvl 120's? broken-ness removes variety from the game. Division 2 and Anthem will LIKELY take pve/coop balance very seriously, and WF will bleed a lot of players next spring if the community and DE espouse this idiotic attitude.

The moment you brought Division and Anthem into this you already lost. Warframe has plenty of balance, im not saying dont balance it, just dont be so damn anal about it in a pve game, its supposed to be fun and warframes fun has always been killing everything in the map as fast as possible, thats always been a thing and it'll always be like that even if they do nerf kitguns. Besdies, getting to the point where you actually meet 120+ enemies, takes awhile anyway, its quite the grind.

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17 minutes ago, Shiichibukai said:

The moment you brought Division and Anthem into this you already lost.

im not trying to win anything. it's a fact that Anthem will grab a ton of WF players, at least for a while IF they do a good job. the first DIvision is a hell of a looter shooter atm with hands down the best endgame in the genre, and the sequel looks amazing. albeit, I don't think its player population overlaps with WF's as much. my point is new looter shooters will take players away from WF due to competition, especially if it has no longevity beyond GRINDING new shinies. WF hasnt been able to maintain 100k+ player numbers in a long while, and the spike in pop from Fortuna has already tanked. as I said, no longevity. this is often the problem with f2p games. DE is frantically trying to pump out more shinies, with less focus on core gameplay elements like balance. so the games with more thought put into endgame will obviously be very tempting, especially for those seeking a less mindless pve experience.

Edited by Ikyr0
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Its my opinion that balance is just as important for a PvE game as a PvP game.


However the specific kitgun while quite strong and stands among the strongest secondaries (in the simulacrum at minimum) isn't all that incredible without a riven mod I think.

I am not MR27 so I cannot test against level 165 Grineer easily but without a riven it takes three shots for me to kill level 160 Grineer Elite Lancers (Weak vs. Radiation) the same as my non-riven'd Lex Prime (though with headshots) and it barely takes the shields off of an Elite Overtaker at point blank after 10 minutes in 'OV Survival' for me.

One of the biggest demerits against it is that it does not appear to get headshot modifiers making it worse vs. single targets compared to a Pyrana Prime.  And the huge hitbox causes it to get caught up on just about anything not in either a straight hallway or an open world map for me so it feels like its a double edged sword.

While strong and comparable to the best shotgun secondaries, there are weapons that do 10x+ the DPS of this gun the routinely get ignored. 

Still might deserve a nerf if instead of other shotgun pistols its compared against the Arca Plasmor though, this just blows past that thing in every way (except hitbox).  Its just kind of weird when a secondary version of something does literally 5x the DPS.

 

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il y a une heure, MiMiren a dit :

Can't see the pictures.

it's a couple of pictures where you see this gun can go up to 32k rad damage + 3k impact with 100% crit chance in arsenal. then pict with a frame without any pistol boosting mod shredding lvl 155 kuva lancer with 17K hit damage PER PELLET.
Fact is I used this gun, tweaked it in every way and it's way too much strong compared to any tool of it kind.

ofc, and I would say FORTUNATELY you can fin minimal downside to it when you put some effort. but it has not enought compared to the power it has. Range is an issue only in cetus and orb vallis, Hit box issue is easily tricked by aiming a bit higher over a fence or more on the side if you're close to a wall so it's not soo much an issue.

What the issue with it or the broken mechanic? I can't explain why atm, but this thing hit lvl 160 npcs as strong as lvl 30. it can OS a lvl 90 nox shooting it in the back instead of head. like if every shots where headshots whatever the angle of attack. Maybe removing that weird almost 100% headshot would be enought to fix it.

I'm not a weapon math caclulator player, so I won't tell what is broken for sure in this tool, but definitively somthing isn't working as usual weapons and rise damages far over what it should be on higher lvl npc.


BTW, did I spoke about eidolons and using a rank 10 pax seeker on it? Nop but i'll stop here, i said what I had to say. If this weapon is working as intended. let it like it is, but don't play with me with that gun. Being AFK farming is already enought boring thing with a saryn or a volt joining your sortie...

Edited by N2h2
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What kind of Riven mod do you have? 

Yours is doing almost 3 times more damage than my riven-less one, it feels like why its strong for you might be because of rivens more than the actual weapon (which make anything OP). 

Either that or I am totally missing something when it comes to modding this (just modding this like a normal secondary so I very well might be). 

From your picture we use the same kitgun parts but you have like ~400% base damage more than me.

As I said before, for me it takes the same number of shots to kill a level 160 Grineer Elite Lancer as a Lex Prime (though with headshots which this weapon doesn't get bonuses for) and I tried OV Survival at Temple of Profit like you suggested and it barely takes down the shields of an Elite Overtaker in a shot after 10 minutes of scaling.

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