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Enemies.. New players said too hard, Vets said too easy


WSPY
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As title said, i really think it's time for DE to rework enemies.. People can solo tridolon some even 3x tridolon, solo sorties like normal low level missions, solo arbitration, solo MOT survival for hours... Dont you guys think it's too easy?

I suggest that enemies' level should be more to just having more sponge and deal more damage.. Many are just dumb and reacting too slow even we have bullet jumped to their backs but they seems blind...

Examples:

Level / Skill

1-5 = 0 skills

6-10 = 1 skill

11-20 = 2 or 3 skills

21-30 = 3 or 4 skills

31-50 = 4 skills and slightly better reaction time

51-80 = more frequent usage of their skills and faster reaction time to our warframe's super mobility

81-100 = slightly better aiming accuracy

100+ = double their skill usage frequency

200+ = even better aiming accuracy (at least like Counter-Strike offline bots' Hard difficulty)

300+ = Counter-Strike pro players reaction time and aiming accuracy

500+ = The second you see the enemy you get headshot... Even you are Volt bullet-jumping max speed mid-air

This will actually soothen new players ranting about the difficulty and also giving vets more challenge.

Edited by WSPY
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My concerne is about Eximus ennemies not being fun..... they are the same or all factions , are they place holders?

 

Them AUra make me , just kill everything fast without watching ,just kill the Energy drainer basterd

Edited by Tsoe
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29 minutes ago, Tsoe said:

My concerne is about Eximus ennemies not being fun..... they are the same or all factions , are they place holders?

 

Them AUra make me , just kill everything fast without watching ,just kill the Energy drainer basterd

Yep.. It's getting dull when we spent more time in this game.. We literally just dont care, just slide and roll and kill...

Warframe is a great game.. But the enemies are the same from the start till end... Just more sponge and damage.. Their accuracy and reaction time still sucks if we move around a lot..

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34 minutes ago, (PS4)Equinox21697 said:

Wouldn't reworking enemies  and adding more unique ones help more in the long run rather than giving high level ones god mode?

Ha... I've mentioned this months before... But many just said there are enough types of enemies..

I've even suggested an enemy with a visible sonar backpack to detect stealth warframe (visible sonar waves for us warframe to locate him).. But no one cares about "adding more unique enemies"

Edited by WSPY
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1 minute ago, WSPY said:

Ha... I've mentioned this months before... But many just said there are enough types of enemies..

I've even suggested an enemy with a visibile sonar backpack to detect stealth warframe.. But no one cares about "adding more unique enemies"

he mean  make the existing one more unique

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But with a ton of eximi around, I still find it challenging...

Well, for the most part in Orb Vallis, The melee Terra guys and MOAs that hook themselves towards your frame as eximi is my current pain in game. From far away, energy leecher and arctic eximi... suddenly charging towards your location.. 

And for a bonus, that Bursa that has those Vauban trampolines... :crylaugh:

But hey, that's just me. To scale the AI of the enemies to have certain skills as an endurance run progresses means that they have to add another set of codes for that learning curve.

Challenging content is fine, but I'd rather they fix what is currently broken right now... like the reactor and boosters of K-drives being too far into the board. xD

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58 minutes ago, (PS4)Equinox21697 said:

Wouldn't reworking enemies  and adding more unique ones help more in the long run rather than giving high level ones god mode?

High level ones like 200+ should be harder and better... What i mentioned for level 100 and below are just some slight buff which will provide a little more challenge in sorties and stuffs while not making them unplayable... 

If you play 2 hours in MOT... What do you expect?

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i think adding unique enemys based on level is a bad idea. it's just confusing. the current way that enemy spawns work is perfectly fine, with stronger basetypes (eximus for example) being delayed a bit (behind capture target, after wave 9 etc depending on mission)

adding more units in general whould be nice but making them exclusive whould just cause a lot of complaining from all the people who never get to fight them because they arent interested in high "level" content. One of warframes biggest draws to many is that you can see pretty much everything at lower levels. this plays very well with the delayed unit spawn that i mentioned.

i'm a lot more interested in ideas like the elite starchard and similar ideas. it's easyer for the developers aswell to implement something liek that since they already have a working level scaling system.

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You know it wouldn't be hard to implement higher level hit squads from each faction like we see from the syndicates when the players in the missions kill X amount of enemies in a small amount of time like how the Juggernaut functions...placing in like eight or more high level NOX units (as an example) swarming the better kitted player will slow them down while the newer players are mopping up the lower level mobs or running interference against the tougher foes... 

I swear that one Proxy Rebellion event where the Corporus Moa were supported by Hyenas and Bursa was a ton of fun a few months ago...

Edited by (PS4)FriendSharkey
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The problem with difficulty is the players, not the enemies.

Players have tools which allow them to completely negate enemy AI at-will, and permanently.

It doesn't matter how good Grineer AI is if players can just CC-lock, go invisible, disarm, etc. and render enemies helpless.

A large part of the problem is that DE tries to balance against veteran builds while the power gap is simply too large. Warframe's progression curve needs to be compressed a bit.

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vor 18 Minuten schrieb DiabolusUrsus:

The problem with difficulty is the players, not the enemies.

Exactly.

vor 19 Minuten schrieb DiabolusUrsus:

It doesn't matter how good Grineer AI is if players can just CC-lock, go invisible, disarm, etc. and render enemies helpless.

In particular because we're able to do these things virtually 24/7 due to a broken energy economy. Imo.

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9 hours ago, LasarraSelendis said:

Well, for the most part in Orb Vallis, The melee Terra guys and MOAs that hook themselves towards your frame as eximi is my current pain in game. From far away, energy leecher and arctic eximi... suddenly charging towards your location.. 

This is something I've been thinking about. We have these enemies that can scale to bullet-sponge one-shot territory, but no matter their level, they always move at the same pace. But part of what people seem to like about OV is that enemies can cover ground faster.

Like, what if, with increases in levels, enemies increased in movement and attack speed with much smaller increases in damage output (or even a cap in damage output so there's much less one-shot potential)?

Granted it might not help a ton with the problems Diabolus mentions about being to CC and invis everything, but do that speed thing and maybe tack on only a couple of units to counter some of those tactics (analogous to Corpus Nullifiers) and who knows? It's a bit more difficult to nuke things if they're fast enough to attack you in-between casts.

Edited by Tyreaus
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6 hours ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

Warframe's progression curve needs to be compressed a bit

 

5 hours ago, Tyreaus said:

This is something I've been thinking about. We have these enemies that can scale to bullet-sponge one-shot territory, but no matter their level, they always move at the same pace. But part of what people seem to like about OV is that enemies can cover ground faster.

Like, what if, with increases in levels, enemies increased in movement and attack speed with much smaller increases in damage output (or even a cap in damage output so there's much less one-shot potential)?

Granted it might not help a ton with the problems Diabolus mentions about being to CC and invis everything, but do that speed thing and maybe tack on only a couple of units to counter some of those tactics (analogous to Corpus Nullifiers) and who knows? It's a bit more difficult to nuke things if they're fast enough to attack you in-between casts.

That's my point of view... Gosh... Finally someone has the same thoughts..

My original post are just some examples or ideas to improve enemies.. There are few more ways to do so like what mentioned by @(PS4)FriendSharkey adding syndicate-like hit squads, or a few Knave spectre hit squad..

But their reaction time and accuracy should be slightly improved in high levels... Tbh, even with slightly improved reaction time and accuracy, with Nova MP slow-af they still wont post a threat...

Edited by WSPY
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21 hours ago, WSPY said:

As title said, i really think it's time for DE to rework enemies.. People can solo tridolon some even 3x tridolon, solo sorties like normal low level missions, solo arbitration, solo MOT survival for hours... Dont you guys think it's too easy?

No one's forcing anyone to play whatever hyper-optimized meta crap trivializes these challenges. There are 37 frames. You're allowed to hunt Eidolons with any one of them if Chroma or Volt makes it too easy.

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19 hours ago, LasarraSelendis said:

Well, for the most part in Orb Vallis, The melee Terra guys and MOAs that hook themselves towards your frame as eximi is my current pain in game. From far away, energy leecher and arctic eximi... suddenly charging towards your location.. 

And for a bonus, that Bursa that has those Vauban trampolines... :crylaugh:

Trenchers and Embattor Moas, those guys are annoying but they makes me shoot them first before killing the rest. But the way Corpus brings Reinforcements in Fortuna with 4 Reinforcement beacons active and having the Profit taker Orb attack you at the same time if you are in it’s Area, that’s something i want to see more since Survivals, in endurance, just having scaling health, Armor, and damage. No different enemies or mechanic in every minute like a fully alerted Orb Vallis. But those Bursas though, yeah forget them.

Edited by GPrime96
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2 hours ago, andrewd084 said:

No one's forcing anyone to play whatever hyper-optimized meta crap trivializes these challenges. There are 37 frames. You're allowed to hunt Eidolons with any one of them if Chroma or Volt makes it too easy.

So do you mean that an elite F1 driver feels unchallenged being a champion for so long and he had to opt to a mini saloon car while race with others' F1 car just to find the challenge?

What we wish here IS when we are equipped with our best gear while still be able to feel challenged....

Edited by WSPY
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I think new players struggle more figuring out what to do with themselves and how to progress at a certain point (modding, which one’s are good, where to farm them), to join a dojo, what you get from them.

Although completing the star chart is a distant blur for me, there is no real “whole” impetus for the quests as they are unlocked through junctions. After so many years and changes, the lua challenge rooms, the void etc feel like frayed elements of a universe in game.

I’d say a lot would be done for the game in weaving the ends back into a story line for people clearing the star chart.

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5 hours ago, GPrime96 said:

Trenchers and Embattor Moas, those guys are annoying but they makes me shoot them first before killing the rest. But the way Corpus brings Reinforcements in Fortuna with 4 Reinforcement beacons active and having the Profit taker Orb attack you at the same time if you are in it’s Area, that’s something i want to see more since Survivals, in endurance, just having scaling health, Armor, and damage. No different enemies or mechanic in every minute like a fully alerted Orb Vallis. But those Bursas though, yeah forget them.

The Fortuna escalation is the currently best in scaling in terms of it's Reinforcement style especially when out in the open, IMO. The random Orbs, Jackals, and a Profit-Taker or Exploiter here and there keeps me on alert of what could possibly hit me from anywhere. So escalating the global alert outside in the Vallis is both fun and a challenge.

Maybe, apart from scaling the enemies into sponges, they should implement a similar set of enemies onto certain endurance runs. Like, for this example, running a survival with the Corpus hitting around the 40min mark would yield Lynxes or Jackals. Then hitting an hour or so, the Shield Ospreys would be armed like the Vallis types... all the way until a bunch of Raptors show up as well. Then the Vauban Bursas  would show up and ill be "screw this in particular" and then extract. :crylaugh: Maybe this one can be easier to implement. For the Grineer... the only I can think of are Bombard Manics, but Regor need a continuation towards the lore for that. 

Damn those Bursas.

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5 hours ago, WSPY said:

So do you mean that an elite F1 driver feels unchallenged being a champion for so long and he had to opt to a mini saloon car while race with others' F1 car just to find the challenge?

What we wish here IS when we are equipped with our best gear while still be able to feel challenged....

But an elite F1 driver is always challenged... by other drivers that could one day either stand to where they are now or overtake them completely. That seems like more of PvP than PvE. Also we have that issue between team sponsors, vehicle engineering, pit crew efficiency, and tires! Especially the tires, man. xD

If and when we're also equipped with our best gear, and still feel challenged, doesn't that mean that our gear ain't best yet? #noendgameconfirmed #yes! xD

Edited by LasarraSelendis
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16 hours ago, LasarraSelendis said:

If and when we're also equipped with our best gear, and still feel challenged, doesn't that mean that our gear ain't best yet? #noendgameconfirmed #yes! xD

I have no idea what the "F1 driver" analogy is supposed to mean. But as far as challenge and gear level go, a lot of WF players demonstrate a fundamental lack of understanding of what they're even asking for when they talk about "challenges" and "endgame."

WF isn't WoW. We don't spend years keeping up with the ever-increasing power cap (level 120, best gear for your class, etc) in order to play the end game. We can reach the "power cap" in this game in like a month. Once you've used a few forma on a single warframe and a couple good weapons, and leveled up your important mods to a decent rank, you don't get any stronger. Ever. A couple extra bells and whistles come along eventually to make things a little better - arcanes, rivens, primes, whatever - but they're minor upgrades in the scheme of things. You will find new warframes that are better suited to certain types of missions or play styles, but those are sidegrades. You're unlocking new abilities and new approaches to the game, not unlocking new levels of strength. Some of those abilities will combine to create remarkably powerful effects, especially in very specific circumstances (see: tridolon meta), but in broad terms one warframe is as strong as the next*.

So the question is.. do you balance your "endgame" around a pre-made team of hyper optimized warframes using borderline game exploits? Or do you balance it around a group of four players with fully modded gear and a decent understanding of the game, just playing their favorite frame/weapon**? Because if you make Eidolons "challenge" that volt/chroma/trinity/harrow team with 3000p Lanka rivens and whatever the current maximum efficiency Amp happens to be, all you're doing is making that fight literally impossible for anyone else. Not challenging, or interesting, or cool - straight up impossible.

When people complain about the lack of challenge or "endgame," they almost always bring up the meta trivializing content as an argument that the content is somehow too inherently easy. Solving that problem doesn't make it any harder - it only makes it as hard as it ever was while freezing out 90% of the stuff they're selling to players in the first place. So sure, anyone can bring Saryn/Volt to ESO if they're compelled to do so, but it'd be nice if they'd accept that they're the ones making it boring for themselves.

*/** except Wukong

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