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As a new player I am little tired of "dumb" gameplay mechanics like Saryn - press 4 to kill map...


Marakai
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As terrible saryn player-I, unfortunately, cant make entire map die. I couldnt care less about dps either. So even if I get matched with 3 other saryns that do better job than me-Im ok.

If you want unnecessary challenge-go play solo or with friends who agreed upon frame choice. And stop asking to nerf things that dont need to be nerfed just because you dont like them. 

On 2018-11-25 at 11:13 AM, Marakai said:

Many times me and other 3 players on Onslaught or Survival/Defense just stand and hope we can kill something or use our "non-AOE-map nuke-press-one-button" abilities before Saryn kills whole map using so much skill as pressing 2 buttons.

So... which one of you is saryn then?

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On 2018-11-25 at 5:24 PM, Voltage said:

If you dislike how others play the game, you can form a squad with specific players or play alone. Saryn and Equinox are not the problem, you just dislike efficient players being matched with you as they will rush the mission whether it is Capture, Exterminate, Defense, etc. You simply can't impose your way of playing on other people.

This is an endless loop of discussion as there are two sides that are not in the wrong, and Digital Extremes cannot do much to combat this. We have seen changes to Mag, Saryn, Ash, Ember, Mesa, Excalibur, Frost, Limbo, and more. Nothing will stop an efficient player from speed-running, nuking, or other gameplay styles that quickly finish missions.

Any changes they've made to those Warframes have either made them stronger or pushed them into utter obscurity. In Saryn's case, they've made her stronger with every attempt to "fix" her. [DE] puts the limit on what efficient players can work with, but they make no effort to. You're bound within the confines of the game, and right now, anyone near Warframe balance has no idea what they're actually doing.

The more this community parades on about the idea of not balancing anything because muh PvE and muh playstyle, the sooner we're going to end up with a Clicker Heroes: 3D version.

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Each frame has their niche, where they excel when other frames can't. They elitist try hard argument isn't a good argument. This is a half baked assumption that you, and people like you have. Warframe is an extremely casual game. The try hards are more likely to be doing something that actually benefits them, then waste their time in a mission with you. The only place you are realistically likely to run into these people is in leveling missions, where they want to level up a weapon as fast as possible, so they can get on to the next forma as fast as possible. (Multiple forma-ing weapons gets boring fast.) 

It's not a niche if they dominate 90% of the game's mission types.

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10 hours ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

Playing with other players is not really a core aspect to the game.  The only thing that out right encourages it is the fact that there are more resources going around when you do.  Frames do not play well with other frames and synergies are few and far between.  It's not a coop game.  People do not work together in the average mission.  It's merely 4 players playing in the same space.  It is not convoluted at all in order to make your own group.  I've made more than a handful of them JUST looking for others with the same relic to crack open.  Takes all of maybe 5 minutes to accomplish. 

Um, no, Warframe is a massively multiplayer game, and multiplayer is a core part of its design. You cannot seriously claim that it isn't when many different portions of content, e.g. Relic runs, Tridolons, ESO -- where Saryn is queen, by the way -- are expressly designed to be played in teams, where significant emphasis is placed upon the community and community interaction, and where some mission types don't even work properly when playing solo (e.g. Excavation). Whether it's "4 players playing in the same space" or not is irrelevant, the end result is still that you have 4 players playing alongside each other towards a common objective. As such, the game needs to prevent players from actively ruining each others' fun. I can agree with you that the game should be soloable from start to finish, or should at least be fully functional when playing solo, but even then, that is not an excuse for poor multiplayer gameplay in a multiplayer game, and does not justify actively discouraging players from playing multiplayer when they want to.

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Your problem is that you assume that something is wrong when something isn't fun.  It's also not an excuse.  it's literally how it is.  It's been DE's point whenever it's been brought up.  They give us these tools for a reason.

I'm sorry, what? So if I advocate for this frame you like to be made healthier, it shouldn't happen because you'd consider the frame less fun by default, but if players don't enjoy their play because your frame is actively sucking the fun out of their session, that's somehow fine? This is a rather interesting double standard, not to mention one that doesn't quite seem to understand what the purpose of a video game like Warframe is. Warframe is meant to be a fun game, and if it isn't offering that fun, why should anyone play it? More generally, why should anyone engage with a piece of entertainment that fails to deliver any entertainment or artistic value? If a game meant to offer fun isn't offering fun, something is wrong, by definition, and if you really think players making their own fun is a valid excuse to ignore real gameplay issues, you should perhaps take a look at Fallout 76. 

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Saryn needs allies to help her keep her spores going.  She can't be everywhere.  If she doesn't keep them up evenly then they smother out and stop spreading.  her spore ability is built like this on purpose so her team can help her.

Okay, so a few things here:

  • First of all... no. Saryn does not have trouble spreading or maintaining her spores unless she plays especially poorly, and even if she cannot cover the literal entire map, she doesn't need to. Even if her spores aren't spreading, they're killing enemies at a distance, and even if her entire plague dies, she can instantly start a new one and resume killing enemies better than most other frames in the game.
  • I'm getting the impression that there's a running theme here, where there's this implicit assumption that it's okay for other players to be expected to work and lessen their own enjoyment for the sake of a Saryn player, but the reverse is somehow unacceptable. Why can't she help her team instead? Not only would it make her significantly more fun to play with, it could likely be better for the Saryn player as well, who'd get along much better with their allies. I do not understand how you can legitimately call Saryn a team-reliant frame, while simultaneously claiming that multiplayer isn't an important aspect of Warframe: there is a fundamental contradiction between these two opinions, and ultimately what you're advocating for is to encourage players to not play with Saryn, which according to you is detrimental to Saryn, in addition to the players who have to constantly inconvenience themselves for her sake.
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 Limbo plays well with others.  He can act as a choke point, a second layer of defense for the objective, he can isolate pockets of enemies or a problem target.  Limbo is only bad for his team in the hands of someone who doesn't know how to use him.

Sure, Limbo can play well with others, and in most situations he does, but the very fact that he can actively hamper his team's enjoyment if he plays poorly (or trolls) is a problem already. If an Excalibur messes up, he's not going to directly harm his allies. If an Oberon plays poorly, perhaps some players might die when expecting to be healed or resurrected, but in the end he's not going to be interfering directly with their play. By contrast, even a single misplaced Banish can be enough for another player to suddenly become unable to play the game normally, and be forced to work around Limbo just so that they can resume their play (and this is assuming the player gets Banished, not the enemy, who may become impossible for that player to kill). Limbo gets a lot of flak for a reason, and that reason is that he interferes with how others play the game.

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 Equinox is also very much a team player.  She has a panic heal for her team.

So first off, the ability's not a "panic heal", it's a heal that takes time to charge up in one of her forms. Second, it is not an ability that is typically used, because most Equinoxes instead use Maim, which directly conflicts with Mend, and if they wanted a healing ability, they would've likely picked a Trinity, whose Blessing is significantly better in every respect.

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 She can boost team defenses.  and she can mass sleep things for her allies to get extra damage multipliers on.  She's just seen as a "nuker" because people misrepresent her and only use her nuke ability.  That's not the frame's problem.

Except it is. By your own admission, players typically use her Day form only, and while that in itself is fine, the problem with her Day form is that it's got an ability that kills enemies through walls, and can thereby rob other players of interaction with the mission they're playing. It is that simple.

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Ember can also be quite the support player with good CC and buffs on allies.

She can be, but that's also irrelevant to her problems, because she's known for literally blazing through low-level missions and killing everyone in a radius without even having to target them, thereby robbing other players of interaction with the mission they're playing. Making excuses for all of these frames and talking about how they can do good things for their team has strictly no relevance to the real problems they have, which countless players have pointed out over the years, and which need to be addressed for the simple reason that they exist. Moreover, making excuses for literally every single frame that got called out here, beyond just Saryn, comes across as fairly strange, and more of a blanket defense of the status quo than a real attempt at having a meaningful discussion on the state of the game's current design (and it's not perfect, so it does need to change whether you personally like it or not).

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Saryn doesn't need to change.  If her spores are the primary source of things dying then her spores are not spreading.  Which means eventually she has to start her cycle again.

... and thereby continue killing enemies across the map through walls, which is made even easier by Miasma. You are not describing any downtime to Saryn's problematic mechanics here.

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 If her spores ARE constantly everywhere then that means her team is helping them do so by popping them to spread them or killing the enemies to spread them (but in a smaller radius.)  There are other frames out there that already enable allies to kill.  Saryn does this a bit her self with both viral procs and corrosive procs.  She just happens to be able to kill things as well.

Except by your own admission, Saryn can single-handedly kill enemies, so she isn't so much of a kill enabler as she is a kill stealer, in the sense that she is capable of killing enemies before anyone else can reach them, thereby causing her allies to travel through a virtually empty map and fail to engage at all with major core gameplay elements. This is a problem players have pointed out, and so it is a problem that needs to be resolved. If you think being a kill enabler is part of Saryn's theme, then it seems we're in agreement, and in which case I don't really see why it you'd disagree to preventing her Spores from dealing lethal damage.

Edited by Teridax68
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... yeah, rework saryn. So she will be the next unplayable frame.. ember is already scum, nezha cant be played any more without "hitting this this this button and uh i have to swing the ring soorry where i have to go", so kill one of the last good frames for non newbies. 

This whole tread is useless. The problem isnt the frame. The problems are player who play solo nuke on low level. But as already wrote before, solution is simple: create your own group. Or player just should be nice to lower lvl players. 

To bash frame just because they are able to mass destructe is just stupid. How do you want survive high levels if you do not have such frames around you. I'll give you the answer: you wont. So go on, kill the last existing frames, for this purpose and noone will be able to play elite missions any more... 

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On 2018-11-26 at 1:22 AM, WhiteMarker said:

You don't like the nuke-playstyle. Nukes may don't like your "boring" playstyle. Accept the fact that everyone has their own way of playing. Don't try to force your way on to others.

That's not what OP was saying. Saryn being a mind-numbingly strong nuke isn't about gameplay choices or matchmaking, it's about messing with the experience that the game is "supposed" to give to players. There's no "right" answer one way or the other -- some players like the feeling of easy power, some prefer the feeling of power got via effort -- but what OP is saying is that one particular player option is so strong that it basically removes the second style of gameplay for players unless they take that extra time to make a squad for the mission. It's not about matchmaking preferences. It's the idea that if a player wants Warframe to provide gameplay that rewards effort, or wants the game to offer any kind of co-operation incentive, one-button wins like nuke Saryn shouldn't exist in the game. It's a design issue.

Edited by SenorClipClop
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There are many Warframes that have AOE attacks, and if you build them just right they could as powerful or more powerful then Miasma. I say no to nerfing, because there is no point to do so. The game isn't supposed to equal on everything. There is always going to be a more powerful frame, weapon, sentinel, or whatever. 

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I do like Saryn, but I have used other frames, and I see them as very powerful as well, maybe even more powerful. Like I said it just depends how you build it. We shouldn't be punishing Saryn mains because they found out how to place a good set of mods.

Edited by GrayFrequency
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5 minutes ago, GrayFrequency said:

There are many Warframes that have AOE attacks, and if you build them just right they could as powerful or more powerful then Miasma.

That's (arguably) accurate, but the difference is that I'm not sure there's a frame who can match Nuke Saryn in both her high power and low effort. There's no problem with frames dealing insane damage over wide areas, but the fact that Saryn can do so just by standing there and pressing 2 buttons over and over means that the game is overly rewarding of minimal engagement. The presence of such a low-effort yet high-power setup both cheapens the high-action gameplay DE has developed for Warframe and, in this case, regularly removes that gameplay for all 4 people in a Saryn's squad.

 

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vor 13 Stunden schrieb (PS4)UltraKardas:

False. This is defeatist attitude on your part. You make every other player not Saryn out to be some kicked mewling dog on the ground

This is either a blatant lie, or you lack basic reading comprehension

Am 30.11.2018 um 13:02 schrieb W3zeer:

OP writes for a low level environment, where press 4 to win still works perfectly fine. I agree though because other frames absolutly outshine her in that regard 😄

At no point have I made that argument you claim I did, it's the same thing I've criticized you for earlier. You make up strawmen and fire walls of text against them.

vor 13 Stunden schrieb (PS4)UltraKardas:

Oh the horror. We should also get rid of the ignis, ember as concept,

Same here, I have clearly stated that I am not using that excessivly in gorups. I outright said it is fine if you want to do it. Telling I implied otherwise is dishonest on your part.

And you still don't get the entire "choice" thing, which is sad at this point. Tell me how you choose to interact with something that is not there anymore? The choice has been made before you're in a position to choose. This is basic logic and this will be the last time I'm going to adress this.

The rest is just more blah blah that entirely misses the point. The funny thing is you actually don't see that acknowleding my position would actually help yourself. I have no problem with Saryn or how you play personally. I have long found my niche I'm happy in. But apparently you're pissing off enough ppl to make this discussion very prevalent in the forums. What happend in the past when that occured? DE at one point stepped in and took your toys away. And I always read the same arguments of "don't tell me what to do!". How often has this defense helped you yet? Let me tell you the answer: Never. You want to know one definition of insanity? Trying the same thing over and over again, expecting different results.

The thing I was going at with low MR players is this: when I'm in a group with others, I'm always ready to carry the group on my own, but I always try to let others participate when I have the feeling they want to. Now you don't have to follow that philosophy, I don't know how often I have to tell you, I'm not here to dictate anything, although you're accusing me otherwise. If you could at least understand why I'm doing that you might have a better chance at understanding why your so called arguments will never make your opponents stop attacking your playstyle. Just see that you're doing exactly what you're accusing others of and maybe you can go forward, or you'll be doing the same song and dance for the next years, every time your newest nuking strategy gets attacked. What you don't seem to get is that you're barking up the wrong tree. I'm not saying nerf Saryn and all the AoE things with her right now. What I'm pointing out is dishonesty. I just see "me me me" and at the same time you expect others to be altruistic. In the end it will be as always, if the players can't behave themselfs, the Devs will bring out the nerf bat, and you will only have yourself to blame.

 

vor 11 Stunden schrieb (XB1)Knight Raime:

- snip

I'm don't want this post to become too long, so I'm trying to give you a short answer. I agree with you on many points, Warframe is a looter at its base, i never denied that. The only thing I said in that direction is that I don't think the grid would become worse if missions would take longer, because the numbers would be adjusted according to a time gate. The problem I have with support is that it's irrelevant for 90+% of the game, it makes no difference if you can heal or buff, when every single player can kill everything on the map while passing by, but that's a whole different story and doesn't really belong here. I can enjoy it though in very high level environments it's just that this only affects very select few missions.

What I've tried to say in admittedly less polite words (because I hate it when someone is trying to misrepresent what I said) to your collegue in the above section is that I'm indeed interested of finding a middle ground, but that can't even start, when one side isn't even acknowledging the fact that their playstyle takes away from others and that the wishes of those others are just as important as their own. In a perfect world, no nerfs would be neccessary, but we don't have that, we have collections of very egoistical players that will put their fun before others any day. And I don't blame them for that, I have never attacked a Simulor Mirage or an old bladestorm Ash or anything like that. One of my favourite Clanmates was an Ultra-Tonkor user and I still played with him daily, although I had much less to kill ;). But I also can understand the mass of players with less sophisticated gear and knowledge of the movement system that get frustraded when they can't even see anything to shoot. Let me make this clear one last time: I'm not trying to take something from you, I'm not trying to tell you how to play. Even if one see's their teammates as nothing more than additional drops and more relic choices than that's fine aswell. Just know that they do have a voice and don't complain when they make themselfs heared. I have no problems when you defend your way of having fun, it's subjective. But don't use double standards. Even if something is really fun to you, maybe at one point you could take the time and look at how others around you might be affected.

In the end, the game is about making its company money. If only 1 person out of 4 can have fun that's potentially a ratio of 75% disappointed player. Ofc the people in charge will step in. Solo and premades are not a solution, claiming they are and thus locking new players out of the community from the start, in a game that's advertized as a cooperative multiplayer shooter is ridiculous.

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13 minutes ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

Then tell me, how helpful is Saryn against Eidolons? How does her killing potential aid in spy and rescue missions? How does she help destroy hive missions?

These types you mention (Rescue, Spy, Eidolons) are the niche missions. Missions where you need to work out a particular setup that isn't as effective as others if taken out of those contexts and into the majority of mission types. Saryn isn't that effective in those niche mission types, but she's stupidly braindead powerful in everything else. Saryn is not niche, because her strength (killing many enemies at once) is the most effective strength to have in most of Warframe's game modes.

17 minutes ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

Strip the AoE off Saryn's abilities. Make Spores only affect a cone in front of her and not spread to anything else. Make Miasma only pop spores for damage. How good a warframe is Saryn then? Terrible. Damage is her niche, or in other words her strong suit. It is all she has been based around, and without completely throwing away her identity, and everything that ever made her Saryn, there is no way to change her.

It's okay for Saryn to deal insane damage. It's okay for her to have huge AoE. There's nothing wrong with that. What's frustrating about Saryn is that she gets to deal her insane damage over large areas with almost zero build-up and almost zero effort. The fact that she gets to be so strong while at the same time making that damage so easy to achieve (stand there and press two buttons) means that leaving her design as-is turns the action combat of Warframe into idle-game levels of engagement very quickly. Saryn can easily be changed without touching her insane damage or giant AoE: simply make that harder to do. Require some kind of skill or effort of the player in order for her to wipe the map, so she can't do it every 5 seconds unless the player is really good at playing the frame. Right now being "good" at Saryn means having Overextended and some Strength mods on, and pressing two buttons. Good design in an action game is when skill and engagement are rewarded with greater effectiveness. With current Saryn, the opposite is true.

22 minutes ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

she will always be strong damage, but any other tweaks is just casting her in the garbage, for another frame to take her spot. 

This makes it sound as though you only like Saryn because she wipes the map with zero effort. If that's the case, my previous paragraph might be lost on you.

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1 minute ago, SenorClipClop said:

It's okay for Saryn to deal insane damage. It's okay for her to have huge AoE. There's nothing wrong with that. What's frustrating about Saryn is that she gets to deal her insane damage over large areas with almost zero build-up and almost zero effort.

There is nothing wrong with that, as a base level 30 Saryn can't do that. It doesn't take effort to use a level 30 Saryn with multiple forma on her to nuke everything. It does take effort to build Saryn up to that level. This is why I am fine with it. 

De has already nerfed Saryn's Miasma in half. 
Unless you want to nerf Miasma again, and make it do 8x damage on spored enemies...

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7 minutes ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

There is nothing wrong with that, as a base level 30 Saryn can't do that. It doesn't take effort to use a level 30 Saryn with multiple forma on her to nuke everything. It does take effort to build Saryn up to that level. This is why I am fine with it. 

This is where we disagree then, as I'm not fine with how it's expressed in the current game. Rewarding players' efforts to Forma their stuff for added power is good, but if a frame is so high-power and low-effort that it allows a player to be Candy Crush levels of involved in the game, while at the same time removing all gameplay for an entire squad*, there's a design problem. And as I said before, I think it's okay for Saryn to nuke, but I dislike that her most effective setup is her most boring one from a gameplay perspective, and that she removes gameplay from most missions by destroying every enemy in their spawn closets within a few seconds of them appearing.

*Let's get specific here and talk about this at say T3 levels and beyond. Any frame with passive area damage of any amount is going to wipe missions below Level 20, so there's not much point arguing about them. T3+ missions are a level around which a lot of the game is played (Bounties, Fissures, standard SO, most Alerts, etc.) and the everything-is-instantly-dead issue is prevalent yet fixable here.

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41 minutes ago, SenorClipClop said:

*Let's get specific here and talk about this at say T3 levels and beyond. Any frame with passive area damage of any amount is going to wipe missions below Level 20, so there's not much point arguing about them. T3+ missions are a level around which a lot of the game is played (Bounties, Fissures, standard SO, most Alerts, etc.) and the everything-is-instantly-dead issue is prevalent yet fixable here.

The problem is that any number of weapons, and combos can do this. No real solution that doesn't detract from the game as a whole. Excalibur's level 3 base radiant javelin can one shot a corpus crewman at level 20. Then basically any other frame with an AoE as well...

I'm all for optional fixes for this. Like the option of going solo, or the option of playing with players near your level added as a match making that you host. 

Edited by (PS4)UltraKardas
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On 2018-11-30 at 4:43 PM, W3zeer said:

There is no false equivalency, this is what you said, do what I say or get out of my group. Also, do you seriously expect a brand new player who's in the process of clearing the earth nodes to put together premade groups?  And furthermore, you force them to not shoot at anything because everything is dead before they see it, this is not letting them play at their pace because they wont do anything when you're leaving nothing. Again you're forcing a specific playstyle on them. Like I said earlier, there's nothing wrong with that per se, but don't try then to argue they can't do the same to you by getting a higher authority (the Devs) involved.

 

As I've said, I have absolutely no problems with them being in my group. At all. So, no, this is not a "do what I say or get out of my group" situation, this is a "here's a workable alternative because you might not enjoy being in a group with me." situation. They are not the same. I'm not asking that they "do" anything specific.

Personally I did most of my early missions solo or with a couple of friends to avoid this exact issue. And, as a veteran player, I can't remember the last time I've randomly done a star chart mission on public or even seen someone below MR12. I don't think there's much overlap between the content that new and old players do. 

 

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18 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

Um, no, Warframe is a massively multiplayer game, and multiplayer is a core part of its design. You cannot seriously claim that it isn't when many different portions of content, e.g. Relic runs, Tridolons, ESO -- where Saryn is queen, by the way -- are expressly designed to be played in teams, where significant emphasis is placed upon the community and community interaction, and where some mission types don't even work properly when playing solo (e.g. Excavation). Whether it's "4 players playing in the same space" or not is irrelevant, the end result is still that you have 4 players playing alongside each other towards a common objective. As such, the game needs to prevent players from actively ruining each others' fun. I can agree with you that the game should be soloable from start to finish, or should at least be fully functional when playing solo, but even then, that is not an excuse for poor multiplayer gameplay in a multiplayer game, and does not justify actively discouraging players from playing multiplayer when they want to.

Just because activities exist that are built around playing with people does not mean the game actively supports such a true cooperative experience.  And it's not irrelevant.  I made that distinction for a very specific reason.  To outline the nature of the game.  You and others are arguing that the game is coop.  In my mind a cooperative experience holds a much bigger emphasis on team work and synergy.  You actively get pushed to and rewarded for working with your allies.  This is not the case for Warframe.  Every piece of content that currently exists is soloable.  A player is even capable of doing this when having 3 other players in their game doing little to nothing.  This is an important part of my discussion and you can't simply brush it off.  Also, i'm not discouraging people from playing multiplayer.  Making your own group is still multiplayer.  I'm specifically stating if they want a very specific experience they're supposed to use the tools for doing so.  To make such broad strokes with responses at me is disingenuous.

18 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

I'm sorry, what? So if I advocate for this frame you like to be made healthier, it shouldn't happen because you'd consider the frame less fun by default, but if players don't enjoy their play because your frame is actively sucking the fun out of their session, that's somehow fine? This is a rather interesting double standard, not to mention one that doesn't quite seem to understand what the purpose of a video game like Warframe is. Warframe is meant to be a fun game, and if it isn't offering that fun, why should anyone play it? More generally, why should anyone engage with a piece of entertainment that fails to deliver any entertainment or artistic value? If a game meant to offer fun isn't offering fun, something is wrong, by definition, and if you really think players making their own fun is a valid excuse to ignore real gameplay issues, you should perhaps take a look at Fallout 76. 

Healthier to YOU.  Don't try to pass off your perspective as the correct one.  I'm not even saying my perspective is the proper one.  As i've already said.  I'm simply saying how things are based on DE's past actions.  There is no double standard here.  You're making me to be the villian and misrepresenting my side of the argument to make yours sound better.  I will make this point clearer to you with an analogy from a seperate game.  CC in overwatch.  CC is not fun to be hit with.  It however exists to keep a players offensive powers in check.  By your logic because nukers are not fun to be playing with you say nukers are a problem.  Without frames being able to cc/kill efficiently in a horde based game things become very difficult to accomplish.  You could argue that by the power of "team work" they could surmount this.  However I would counter your point by bringing up what i've already brought up.  This game is not designed at it's foundation to support that kind of gameplay.  If you want to see that as a problem that is your right to do so.  That doesn't make it factually a problem though.  Which loops back to the beginning of this.  Yes some frames are unfun for you to play with.  But that doesn't factually mean said frames are problems.

18 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

Okay, so a few things here:

  • First of all... no. Saryn does not have trouble spreading or maintaining her spores unless she plays especially poorly, and even if she cannot cover the literal entire map, she doesn't need to. Even if her spores aren't spreading, they're killing enemies at a distance, and even if her entire plague dies, she can instantly start a new one and resume killing enemies better than most other frames in the game.
  • I'm getting the impression that there's a running theme here, where there's this implicit assumption that it's okay for other players to be expected to work and lessen their own enjoyment for the sake of a Saryn player, but the reverse is somehow unacceptable. Why can't she help her team instead? Not only would it make her significantly more fun to play with, it could likely be better for the Saryn player as well, who'd get along much better with their allies. I do not understand how you can legitimately call Saryn a team-reliant frame, while simultaneously claiming that multiplayer isn't an important aspect of Warframe: there is a fundamental contradiction between these two opinions, and ultimately what you're advocating for is to encourage players to not play with Saryn, which according to you is detrimental to Saryn, in addition to the players who have to constantly inconvenience themselves for her sake.

Sure, Limbo can play well with others, and in most situations he does, but the very fact that he can actively hamper his team's enjoyment if he plays poorly (or trolls) is a problem already. If an Excalibur messes up, he's not going to directly harm his allies. If an Oberon plays poorly, perhaps some players might die when expecting to be healed or resurrected, but in the end he's not going to be interfering directly with their play. By contrast, even a single misplaced Banish can be enough for another player to suddenly become unable to play the game normally, and be forced to work around Limbo just so that they can resume their play (and this is assuming the player gets Banished, not the enemy, who may become impossible for that player to kill). Limbo gets a lot of flak for a reason, and that reason is that he interferes with how others play the game.

That's not how she works.  Her spores will spread far on their own based on how her kit works.  If her spores are killing off pockets of enemies away from her they're not spreading.  They specifically allow spores to be spread on death without popping so long as the spores were not the thing that killed them.  Which is where allies come in.  Her allies going around and killing infected enemies/popping spores keeps her infection going through out the map.  The only place this doesn't entirely hold true is ESO because the enemy density there is absurd.  Any other game mode and she struggles to maintain spores through out the map.  And semantics on both points.  If her spores are not everywhere she's not killing everything.  Meaning her allies are getting to do something.  So why complain then?  And "she can just start over"  is not a viable argument when you're playing higher content.  She's actively helping her team already by debuffing them with viral and corrosive.  But it's convienent to ignore that because it goes against your argument.  Once again I specified coop.  You're just hearing what you want to hear.

 

Nah see now you're just downplaying in order to make limbo look bad.  Limbo gets flak because he isn't played well by players.  Not because he's a problem frame.  If an excal is in the group he's either primary dps or secondary cc.  If he's not killing as much as he should he's effectively useless.  And someone could have chosen a different frame to be more helpful.  If he's secondary cc then messing up can kill people.  It's convienent for you to argue this because in star chart content anything is a push over thus making limbo's potential bad look worse than it is.  If you're doing content where you'd actually want other players anyone not doing their job well is a problem.

18 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

So first off, the ability's not a "panic heal", it's a heal that takes time to charge up in one of her forms. Second, it is not an ability that is typically used, because most Equinoxes instead use Maim, which directly conflicts with Mend, and if they wanted a healing ability, they would've likely picked a Trinity, whose Blessing is significantly better in every respect.

Except it is. By your own admission, players typically use her Day form only, and while that in itself is fine, the problem with her Day form is that it's got an ability that kills enemies through walls, and can thereby rob other players of interaction with the mission they're playing. It is that simple.

She can be, but that's also irrelevant to her problems, because she's known for literally blazing through low-level missions and killing everyone in a radius without even having to target them, thereby robbing other players of interaction with the mission they're playing. Making excuses for all of these frames and talking about how they can do good things for their team has strictly no relevance to the real problems they have, which countless players have pointed out over the years, and which need to be addressed for the simple reason that they exist. Moreover, making excuses for literally every single frame that got called out here, beyond just Saryn, comes across as fairly strange, and more of a blanket defense of the status quo than a real attempt at having a meaningful discussion on the state of the game's current design (and it's not perfect, so it does need to change whether you personally like it or not).

This is strawmanning.  You listed frames that were by your own admission poor team players (aka not fun to play with.)  My point was that each frame you listed can be extremely great with other players.  The issue lies within how people choose to play them.  Not the frames themselves.  This is easily seen in your example to tear down my point on equinox.  She's a very team centric frame regardless of how players choose to play her.  Modding allows us to play frames in a variety of ways, this is what allows us to focus on things.  So sure.  you CAN focus on nuking with equinox.  This doesn't mean she's only a nuker.  and that she's of poor design because she can nuke.  I'm not making excuses here bud.  You are.  You're trying to push your agenda of a problem that doesn't exist.  Being dismissive of things that are straight up counters to your arguments doesn't help your points.  At best you can say that said frames can be played in a way that's annoying to players.  Which I can't dispute.  But you're insisting the frames themselves are designed poorly because of this.  Which is reaching beyond your grasp.

18 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

... and thereby continue killing enemies across the map through walls, which is made even easier by Miasma. You are not describing any downtime to Saryn's problematic mechanics here.

Except by your own admission, Saryn can single-handedly kill enemies, so she isn't so much of a kill enabler as she is a kill stealer, in the sense that she is capable of killing enemies before anyone else can reach them, thereby causing her allies to travel through a virtually empty map and fail to engage at all with major core gameplay elements. This is a problem players have pointed out, and so it is a problem that needs to be resolved. If you think being a kill enabler is part of Saryn's theme, then it seems we're in agreement, and in which case I don't really see why it you'd disagree to preventing her Spores from dealing lethal damage.

It's not one or the other.  She does both.  Majority of frames out there are capable of "kill stealing" at star chart content.  The fact that you'd specifically call something kill stealing means you believe you have some kind of right to the enemy you didn't kill.  Which is silly.  If you didn't kill it that's your problem.  Not your allies.  If kills mean that much to you play a frame that's designed to kill very well.  I'm against it because it's a completely not needed change to a kit that works fine.  You're wanting change for the sake of change and dressing it up with a "problem" that is a player perceived one.  Not a legitimate one.  Saryn's power is properly in check as is.  She needs to keep her spores spreading to keep her damage going so she can continue to kill.  She needs her allies to help spread her spores in anything outside of ESO.  Why would I bother keeping my spores up if they can't kill?  I can just recast and have the same debuff ability at the same effectiveness.  It would go against her current design to make that change.  At that point i'd just play another frame who's arguably better at debuffing.

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18 hours ago, W3zeer said:

I'm don't want this post to become too long, so I'm trying to give you a short answer. I agree with you on many points, Warframe is a looter at its base, i never denied that. The only thing I said in that direction is that I don't think the grid would become worse if missions would take longer, because the numbers would be adjusted according to a time gate. The problem I have with support is that it's irrelevant for 90+% of the game, it makes no difference if you can heal or buff, when every single player can kill everything on the map while passing by, but that's a whole different story and doesn't really belong here. I can enjoy it though in very high level environments it's just that this only affects very select few missions.

If we're going to openly acknowledge that support is meaningless at start chart content then it shouldn't be a stretch to say x frame being able to kill very well is ultimately meaningless because everyone is effective/viable at said content in the first place.

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What I've tried to say in admittedly less polite words (because I hate it when someone is trying to misrepresent what I said) to your collegue in the above section is that I'm indeed interested of finding a middle ground, but that can't even start, when one side isn't even acknowledging the fact that their playstyle takes away from others and that the wishes of those others are just as important as their own. In a perfect world, no nerfs would be neccessary, but we don't have that, we have collections of very egoistical players that will put their fun before others any day. And I don't blame them for that, I have never attacked a Simulor Mirage or an old bladestorm Ash or anything like that. One of my favourite Clanmates was an Ultra-Tonkor user and I still played with him daily, although I had much less to kill ;). But I also can understand the mass of players with less sophisticated gear and knowledge of the movement system that get frustraded when they can't even see anything to shoot. Let me make this clear one last time: I'm not trying to take something from you, I'm not trying to tell you how to play. Even if one see's their teammates as nothing more than additional drops and more relic choices than that's fine aswell. Just know that they do have a voice and don't complain when they make themselfs heared. I have no problems when you defend your way of having fun, it's subjective. But don't use double standards. Even if something is really fun to you, maybe at one point you could take the time and look at how others around you might be affected.

As i've mentioned previously i'm not trying to silence players.  I'm trying to silence ignorance.  The fact that most people here that are against saryn's current design are straight up saying blatently false things about saryn and how she works are either dumbing down her gameplay for the sake of trying to make a point or are actually ignorant on how she works is the problem I have.  She's not an EZ nuker frame that mashes one or two buttons and constantly and consistently kills everything everywhere and is the best at it.  She has to manage her spores very well or her damage drops off.  She has to manage her spores very well or she can't keep the enemies on the map infested.  Meaning she's not actively able to help her allies kill other things as she's not viral/corrosive proccing everyone.  The fact here is that Saryn outside ESO REQUIRES her allies to actively kill things infested with spores where ever she's not.  This is because the spawns in everything but ESO are not dense enough and not constant.  They come in waves.  Which means if her spores reach a corner that enemies are not spawning at right at that second that side of the map becomes dead to her spores and she'll have to go manually apply them there again.  Which means she's not managing her spores else where.

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In the end, the game is about making its company money. If only 1 person out of 4 can have fun that's potentially a ratio of 75% disappointed player. Ofc the people in charge will step in. Solo and premades are not a solution, claiming they are and thus locking new players out of the community from the start, in a game that's advertized as a cooperative multiplayer shooter is ridiculous.

Solo/premades are a solution for players wanting a specific experience.  There will always be people complaining about not getting enough kills regardless of what DE does.  Excal after his rework was still complained about despite not being a nuker just because he could still kill things at range.  People often forget how bad things used to be in terms of powerful nukers.  Nothing we have now is even close to what we used to deal with.  And to argue that current Saryn is anything close to that level is just pure ignorance.  Intentional or not.  I would agree that Warframe is falsely advertized as a coop game.  I argue this point with another poster.  My point is for the most part once you become a seasoned player you care less about kills in the traditional sense like what's being argued here.  Kills become about affinity and resources.  Even vets like myself go solo for affinity grinding.  As that's the most efficient.  And we deal with pubs as they come when resource farming.  Because in this case it's better to have someone than no one.  If all people care about is actually playing the game then I'd always suggest solo/premade.  Because in any game controlling your experience leads to the best results.  I really don't understand why people find that to be so horrible.

If they don't care about being efficient or farming then the only reason they'd care about playing would be so they could play with other like minded players.  Which again you're better off finding said players than going and playing pubs to RNG the potential friends.  It just doesn't make any sense for a player who doesn't care about the actual reasons to be in a pub to complain about the situation when they don't have any real reason to be playing pubs when a solo/pre made experience gives them the exact situation they are wanting from the game.  It really just comes off as people not wanting to effort for what they desire.  They'd rather have the game do it for them.  Which imo is the players problem and not the games.

 

EDIT:  Just to reclarify a point.  The reasons for entering a pub are as follows:  To efficiently farm for resources. to have someone guide/carry you through some content, and to get something done quickly.  If you're there to efficiently farm something then it shouldn't matter what other players are doing as long as they're being efficient/helpful.  If you're there to have someone guide/carry you then you shouldn't be complaining how they're doing so.  If you're there to have something done quickly then you shouldn't care what the person is doing unless it's actively slowing down the game as a whole.  If you're looking to have a specific experience or to play with like minded players then pubs are not for that.  solo/premade is for that.

Edited by (XB1)Knight Raime
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37 minutes ago, W3zeer said:

 

@(XB1)Knight Raime

I actually think we're coming to an understanding here. See, I have no problem with you arguing from the standpoint that she's not as easy to play as others make her out to be. Your opposition might disagree with that, I don't. If that helps in very low level games is a different question. What I went against was only the notion that forcing others to accept a nuker that leaves the group with nothing to do was not infringing on their gameplay. Only after establishing that you can start to get to somewhere, but since I'm not affected too much by that I'm not the right person to discuss that with.

 

I understand that it's inevitable for new players to clash with experienced players due to how content is layed out.  Relic farming/opening alone forces players to be across the whole star chart instead of just being forced to one specific location.  Then you have the most optimal places for farming resources.  ETC.  I don't agree with high players going out of their way to go to lower content just to nuke things for random players under the false guise of trying to help carry them.  That's just trolling.  But I don't think that means certain frames are problems nor do I think there is a clean solution to this without majorly overhauling the game.

All I can say is i've never been one to shy away from clear balance problems.  I did speak out against mirage and the synoid combo.  I did speak out against excal nuking maps with jav alone.  and saryn being able to nuke the void just by spamming 4.  But I for the most part feel like DE has done a great job at addressing these problems with their reworks.  As while a lot of frames they've reworked are still powerful in their own right a lot more player interaction is now asked of the person using the frame.  Which I think is a fair trade off.  Some clearly don't.  And that's fine.  No one is truly right here.

I just think it's far more productive to go and tailor the experience for yourself than to try and make your dislike about efficient killers out to be something bigger than simply your own personal taste.  DE is quite good at responding to actual balance issues in the game.  So I feel like if Saryn was truly as big an issue as some in here make her out to be they would have easily seen this by now.  And they certainly wouldn't have released her as is.  They actually made quite a few tweaks to her post re-rework.  So the way she currently is 100% is intended by the devs.  At best she might be a balance problem for ESO.  And that MIGHT warrent yet another revisit to her down the line.  But right now there are many other frames that rightfully deserve their attention.

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9 hours ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

The problem is that any number of weapons, and combos can do this. No real solution that doesn't detract from the game as a whole.

Name one other combo, apart from Nuke Saryn, that allows a player to kill all Starchart enemies within 20 meters (plus mods, which can stretch the range to ~35m without negative effects) of the player in seconds, through walls, without line-of-sight, without moving the character, for the press of two buttons. (By the way, Radial Javelin requires line-of-sight on its targets.)

Edited by SenorClipClop
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Saryn was much worse before, same with Ember. Do NOT ever expect that DE will change Warframes --or hell, the main game-- to shape and conform to newer players like you. There are much more players than you think in this game, and prettymuch all of them have been nerfed in some way because of players like you who want to change stuff even if you don't have much experience in the game like you said. Do not ever expect a Saryn nerf, she is an all rounded frame. Like I said earlier, there are MANY more frames who can do her job just as well if not better than her. Like I also said earlier, get Saryn; she is locked from newer players as her parts are found on the last planet in the game, PLUS to fight the boss you need "Judgement Points", which are acquired after completing an Arena mission like Yam on Sedna. These "Arena" missions only give you 10-15 points, and you need 25 to fight the boss Kela De Thaym.

Veterans play Saryn because they had to grind a little to much to get to MR25 or so, they are just making it easier on themselves. It would be a little undermining if I said I have PTSD from farming so much. Saryn is a frame ONLY offered to ENDGAME players. Don't want to play with them? Don't. Simple.

DE has really bad matchmaking, like Overwatch and games like that; just deal with it. Who tf cares about how many kills you got after a mission. Don't like the player playing with you? Complaining won't fix it. Do NOT expect DE to baby you all the way to the Chimera quest, and do NOT expect them to change a loved warframe to fit your playstyle.

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58 minutes ago, SenorClipClop said:

Name one other combo, apart from Nuke Saryn, that allows a player to kill all Starchart enemies within 20 meters (plus mods, which can stretch the range to ~35m without negative effects) of the player in seconds, through walls, without line-of-sight, without moving the character, for the press of two buttons. (By the way, Radial Javelin requires line-of-sight on its targets.)

Lmao easy: Nova, Volt, Hydroid I guess, Mirage, Ember.

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4 hours ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

Just because activities exist that are built around playing with people does not mean the game actively supports such a true cooperative experience. 

I'm sorry, what? So what is the truth, then? Is the game multiplayer or is it not?

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And it's not irrelevant.  I made that distinction for a very specific reason.  To outline the nature of the game.  You and others are arguing that the game is coop.  In my mind a cooperative experience holds a much bigger emphasis on team work and synergy.  You actively get pushed to and rewarded for working with your allies. 

That's nice, but that is your own personal definition of a coop game, one that is much narrower than needs to be for an actual coop game to exist, again as evidenced by Warframe. Even if four players in a team completely ignore each other, they are nonetheless playing alongside each other in the same mission. Thus, the minimum requirement should be that these players do not actively harm each other's enjoyment of the mission, regardless of whether they're actually cooperating with each other.

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This is not the case for Warframe.  Every piece of content that currently exists is soloable.  A player is even capable of doing this when having 3 other players in their game doing little to nothing.  This is an important part of my discussion and you can't simply brush it off.

Um, no, not all content is soloable, and I cited multiple examples of pieces of content that becomes dysfunctional if one so attempts it in my above post. You cannot claim that I'm "brushing it off" when I have in fact comprehensively addressed your point, and when it is in fact you who are conspicuously ignoring my responses in order to attempt to repeat arguments that have been already refuted.

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 Also, i'm not discouraging people from playing multiplayer.  Making your own group is still multiplayer.  I'm specifically stating if they want a very specific experience they're supposed to use the tools for doing so.  To make such broad strokes with responses at me is disingenuous.

Making one's own group is more convoluted and time-consuming than simply joining a random public match, and is contingent upon other people agreeing to do the exact same thing as you, all of which is discouraging to a player who simply wants to press a button, immediately join a mission with a team, and have a fun session without having to worry about a particular frame killing their fun. I am not making any "broad strokes" here, I am merely elaborating upon your handwaving of the experience of people other than yourself, which carries more negative implications than you seem willing to admit.

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Healthier to YOU.  Don't try to pass off your perspective as the correct one.  I'm not even saying my perspective is the proper one.

So first off, it's not just healthier to me, as there are clearly far more people besides myself who have an issue with frames rendering entire missions completely uninteractive. Second, you are trying to pass your own perspective as the proper one, by pushing a ton of different (and questionable) opinions as if they were fact. That you do not personally consider it an issue if Saryn actively sucks the fun out of other people's play session does not invalidate the experience of these other players. I completely agree there there is no One True WayTM of making Saryn healthier, and here I'm just spitballing potential solutions, but at the end of the day, it is an objective fact that Saryn is rendering the game less pleasant for many players, and so due to the particularities of her own kit. Whether or not you personally feel the same is irrelevant.

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 As i've already said.  I'm simply saying how things are based on DE's past actions.  There is no double standard here.  You're making me to be the villian and misrepresenting my side of the argument to make yours sound better.

... where exactly did DE say this? If you're basing yourself off of what DE said, then please, by all means, point to where they said this. The fact that you didn't mention DE at all when making that bizarre claim makes this come across as an attempt at backtracking more than anything else, because your formulation of this opinion definitely made it look like that opinion came from you. Moreover, even if you were merely citing DE, you also expressed that opinion uncritically, as if it were fact, so even if it is not an opinion you came up with, it is certainly an opinion you endorse, which brings me back to the criticism you are attempting to evade here. It is a double standard to expect Saryn's teammates to sacrifice their fun for her sake, while refusing any change to Saryn that would compromise on whichever hypothetical enjoyment players get out of specific parts of her kit to make her more fun to play with. If you do not believe Saryn's teammates should have to sacrifice their play just to make her feel better, by all means, please state so clearly.

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 I will make this point clearer to you with an analogy from a seperate game.  CC in overwatch.  CC is not fun to be hit with.  It however exists to keep a players offensive powers in check.  By your logic because nukers are not fun to be playing with you say nukers are a problem.  Without frames being able to cc/kill efficiently in a horde based game things become very difficult to accomplish.  You could argue that by the power of "team work" they could surmount this.  However I would counter your point by bringing up what i've already brought up. 

Hold on there. Overwatch is a PvP game, whereas Warframe is a PvE game: any single thing a player can do in Overwatch can be said to be detrimental to the enjoyment of another player, by your own logic. It's not that fun to get CCed, but it's also not that fun to die, or to lose a match (at least, past a certain threshold anyway). All of that is considered acceptable, however, precisely because of the PvP nature of Overwatch, where players are specifically pitted against other players. The near-totality of Warframe does not do this at all, and as such there is no reason for any one player to make another player's experience less fun in any PvE mission. As such, your analogy is terrible, and absolutely does not fit a discussion on frames that diminish the experience of other players in PvE play. 

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This game is not designed at it's foundation to support that kind of gameplay.  If you want to see that as a problem that is your right to do so.  That doesn't make it factually a problem though.  Which loops back to the beginning of this.  Yes some frames are unfun for you to play with.  But that doesn't factually mean said frames are problems.

I'm sorry, which "kind of gameplay" does Warframe not support? If you're talking about PvP gameplay a la Overwatch, I wholeheartedly agree, Warframe is not made to be a PvP game and should probably stop trying. If you mean multiplayer PvE gameplay, I'd say that claim is laughable, as Warframe was built from the ground up to be played in coop. Even if it were somehow designed as a solo game initially, the fact is that the game is currently massively multiplayer, and so should hold to rules of a good multiplayer experience. Speaking of passing one's opinion as fact, you are yet again insisting upon the laughable notion that it's not a problem for frames to ruin the experience of other players: why? Why is this true? How can this be true in a game where the majority of people play multiplayer?

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That's not how she works.  Her spores will spread far on their own based on how her kit works.  If her spores are killing off pockets of enemies away from her they're not spreading.

So what is the truth, then? Do her spores spread far on their own, or do they have trouble spreading? It doesn't seem like there's the clearest understanding of Saryn's kit here.

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They specifically allow spores to be spread on death without popping so long as the spores were not the thing that killed them.  Which is where allies come in.  Her allies going around and killing infected enemies/popping spores keeps her infection going through out the map.  The only place this doesn't entirely hold true is ESO because the enemy density there is absurd.  Any other game mode and she struggles to maintain spores through out the map.

I didn't know pressing 4 was an insurmountably difficult task. Moreover, merely describing Saryn's kit does not justify how it impacts on the experience of other players. Whether or not allies help the spread of her Spores, Saryn can still single-handedly kill enemies and make her spores spread on her own (she has the tools for both), which frequently happens in missions she enters, even outside of ESO. The simple fact that she can do this, and in fact does do this, is what makes her unfun to play with, because a game in which Saryn uses Spores and Miasma to single-handedly kill enemies from long distances is a game where other players walk through an empty map, and couldn't help her if they tried.

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 And semantics on both points.  If her spores are not everywhere she's not killing everything.  Meaning her allies are getting to do something.  So why complain then?

... where? Which situation are you referring to? How exactly can you prove that Saryn never spreads her spores enough for her to actively dampen the play of her allies? As it stands, clearly she's doing enough of it for players to call her out on it, so you are wrong here, plain and simple. Alternatively, hundreds if not thousands of players are experiencing some mass hallucination all at the same time, and while I'm sure you'd be inclined to believe that if it meant never changing Saryn, you'd perhaps have to try to provide proof first, as that is indeed the claim you are making here.

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 And "she can just start over"  is not a viable argument when you're playing higher content.  She's actively helping her team already by debuffing them with viral and corrosive.  But it's convienent to ignore that because it goes against your argument.  Once again I specified coop.  You're just hearing what you want to hear.

Actually, it is, because what I'm saying is that even in the worst case scenario, where Saryn somehow messes up her plague, she can immediately get it back up and running, meaning there is zero real downtime to her mass-killing potential. If she plays properly, however, she wouldn't even need to do this, because Spores and Miasma are both enough to propagate her plague naturally throughout missions. You cannot honestly claim that I'm "just hearing what I want to hear" when I am the one directly addressing your arguments, and you are expressly ignoring them in order to repeat yourself. 

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Nah see now you're just downplaying in order to make limbo look bad.  Limbo gets flak because he isn't played well by players.  Not because he's a problem frame.

Downplaying what? I never denied that Limbo can be useful, I just said that he can and does make missions frustrating for players, and that in itself is a problem. Again, you are implicitly dismissing the criticisms of thousands more players because of your own personal opinion: you genuinely seem to believe that the entire state of the game can be judged purely based on whether or not you personally consider something a problem, which is impacting on your ability to debate sensibly in this conversation. Your opinion is not the only one that matters, and whether you like it or not, many players criticize Limbo for the same reasons I pointed out, so that criticism is indeed valid.

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If an excal is in the group he's either primary dps or secondary cc.  If he's not killing as much as he should he's effectively useless.  And someone could have chosen a different frame to be more helpful.  If he's secondary cc then messing up can kill people.  It's convienent for you to argue this because in star chart content anything is a push over thus making limbo's potential bad look worse than it is.  If you're doing content where you'd actually want other players anyone not doing their job well is a problem.

There is a critical difference you seem to be missing between a frame being "useless" and a frame actively damaging the experience of other players. Even if an Excal doesn't play well, so long as they're not doing anything deliberately trollish like wandering off in an Interception mission or leeching a bounty, they're not actively harming the experience of other players, who can simply play the mission normally from start to finish and have a good time. This is a conclusion you should have arrived to on your own, considering how you previously stated that multiplayer in Warframe is simply 4 players apparently ignoring each other (so, once more, there is a fundamental contradiction between the excuses you give out in defense of Saryn). By contrast, as mentioned above, if a Limbo accidentally Banishes the wrong target, that alone directly and negatively impacts on the experience of other affected players, and is enough to contribute to Limbo's negative overall reputation. Again, there is a reason why Limbo gets flak for being unfun to play with, and not Excal.

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This is strawmanning.  You listed frames that were by your own admission poor team players (aka not fun to play with.)  My point was that each frame you listed can be extremely great with other players.

And, as has already been pointed out, the fact that these frames can be great with other players is utterly irrelevant to the fact that they can and frequently do negatively impact on the experience of other players. There is no strawmanning to be had when I am pointing out simple facts about certain frames and the reason why these frames routinely get criticized. By contrast, this is but one more incidence of you deliberately ignoring or failing to understand an argument made previously, just so that you can repeat a previous argument of yours that already got refuted.

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The issue lies within how people choose to play them.  Not the frames themselves.  This is easily seen in your example to tear down my point on equinox.  She's a very team centric frame regardless of how players choose to play her.  Modding allows us to play frames in a variety of ways, this is what allows us to focus on things.  So sure.  you CAN focus on nuking with equinox.  This doesn't mean she's only a nuker.  and that she's of poor design because she can nuke. 

Again, this is irrelevant, because if poor play means a player actively makes the game less fun for others with some (and not all) frames, then there is a problem. Your attempts at downplaying this by pointing out to the potential good these frames can do is, once more, completely irrelevant to this fact, as the ability for a frame to do good is not incompatible with its ability to do wrong if its design is poor.

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I'm not making excuses here bud.  You are.  You're trying to push your agenda of a problem that doesn't exist.  Being dismissive of things that are straight up counters to your arguments doesn't help your points. 

Sweetie, your arguments have been nothing but excuses. It is also particularly delicious that you would accuse me of "being dismissive of things that are straight up counters to [my] arguments" immediately after dismissing the opinions and criticisms of hundreds to thousands more players on the matter, for the simple reason that you personally do not agree with them. Your rant here is psychological projection, pure and simple, particularly as I have taken great care to answer your arguments in detail, point by point. If you disagree, please point out how your claims here aren't hypocritical.

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At best you can say that said frames can be played in a way that's annoying to players.  Which I can't dispute.

Then perhaps stop trying to dispute that fact? It's like you can't stop yourself from contradicting every single argument made by someone you consider an opponent in this conversation.

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But you're insisting the frames themselves are designed poorly because of this.  Which is reaching beyond your grasp.

... why? Again, you seem to be relying on some assumption that you haven't yet made clear. Why exactly is a frame not poorly designed if its kit is capable of actively harming the experience of other players? I've made my case already in my above posts, yet you have yet to make yours here.

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It's not one or the other.  She does both.  Majority of frames out there are capable of "kill stealing" at star chart content.  The fact that you'd specifically call something kill stealing means you believe you have some kind of right to the enemy you didn't kill. Which is silly. 

I do believe that every player has the right to interact with enemies on the map, yes. If you personally believe that right should only go to Saryn, and that her allies should bend over backwards for her sake, that's your own problem.

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If you didn't kill it that's your problem.  Not your allies.

Ah yes, it is absolutely my fault that I didn't instantly teleport to the other side of the map and get a few kills before one of my allies murdered every opponent in the vicinity with the press of a button. How silly of me.

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If kills mean that much to you play a frame that's designed to kill very well. 

Except I'm not asking to get plenty of kills here, I'm just asking to have at least some interaction with enemies when I play a mission, which I don't think is a particularly contentious opinion. Apparently, it is to you when it means reining back Saryn's ability to kill enemies from long distances and through walls even a little. One shouldn't have to play a nuke frame to be able to get kills, and even damage frames like Ash, Excalibur, Mesa and so on are going to have trouble killing enemies if a Saryn's around killing enemies from beyond line of sight. What you're implicitly asking for is for players to a) exclusively play Saryn or a similarly broken frame, b) heavily constrain one's access to missions just to avoid playing with those frames, or c) play normally and experience degraded quality of play in missions where any problem frame is present. I don't know about you, but I wouldn't call any of these options appealing.

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I'm against it because it's a completely not needed change to a kit that works fine. 

... to you.

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You're wanting change for the sake of change and dressing it up with a "problem" that is a player perceived one.  Not a legitimate one.

... to you. Again, I am by no means the only player giving out this criticism, as noted by this very thread, so it's rather bizarre that you would attempt to pretend that I'm this isolated individual giving out opinions nobody else agrees with. I am certainly not advocating "change for the sake of change" here, as I clearly pointed out issues specific to Saryn that I think warrant changes, yet from the overall tone and framing of your replies, it feels like you're genuinely scared that my criticism may catch the attention of someone higher up and cause a change, which is why you're trying so desperately to dismiss opinions contrary to your own here. In a debate where the only two options are that either you're wilfully denying valid opinions and facts, or thousands of players are all being delusional in the same way at the same time, you still seem to stand by the latter, simply because you can't seem to stand the possibility of being wrong.

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Saryn's power is properly in check as is.  She needs to keep her spores spreading to keep her damage going so she can continue to kill.  She needs her allies to help spread her spores in anything outside of ESO.  Why would I bother keeping my spores up if they can't kill?  I can just recast and have the same debuff ability at the same effectiveness.  It would go against her current design to make that change.  At that point i'd just play another frame who's arguably better at debuffing.

Saryn is at her third redesign already, received multiple hotfixes after the last one, and is still considered a balance problem. This is also in an environment where DE nerfed Ember to the ground precisely because she was too good at killing enemies through walls. You cannot in good faith hold her current design or balance as absolute, particularly since Warframe is a game in constant evolution. Speaking of passing opinion as fact, here you are doing it again, by pretending that Saryn is perfect and flawless simply because you said so. As a side note, if Spores can't deal lethal damage, they can keep up automatically, so you wouldn't need to recast unless you somehow minimize your range. For all the talk around Saryn, it doesn't quite seem like you entirely understand how she works.

Edited by Teridax68
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4 hours ago, SenorClipClop said:

Name one other combo, apart from Nuke Saryn, that allows a player to kill all Starchart enemies within 20 meters (plus mods, which can stretch the range to ~35m without negative effects) of the player in seconds, through walls, without line-of-sight, without moving the character, for the press of two buttons.

 

3 hours ago, (XB1)DisGrl said:

Lmao easy: Nova

Nova needs to aim and use weapons in addition to her abilities. And Molly Prime doesn't deal any damage. Furthermore, she doesn't have anything to follow MP up with to quick-wipe the map -- Null Star is short-range, AMD is slow and directional. She allows others to nuke the map with their combat. The key point here is other players. Recall that the original point of this thread is that insta-nuke Saryn is bad for the game because it removes anything to do from the other players in a squad, which MP doesn't do.

3 hours ago, (XB1)DisGrl said:

Volt

He's pretty busted in Onslaught where enemies spawn and move in perfect sync with how Discharge works, but its Electricity damage is resisted by Armor with nothing in Volt's kit to circumvent that. Discharge's initial cast damage falls off over distance and doesn't pass through environmental obstacles (even though the Tesla shocks do), and recasts of his 4 do not refresh its effectiveness on targets. Most importantly, Discharge is strong but doesn't scale and is weak against Armor, as opposed to the Saryn setup that both weakens and circumvents it, scaling by itself to 100k damage per tick as long as enemies keep spawning and you keep pressing 4.

3 hours ago, (XB1)DisGrl said:

Hydroid I guess

Have... have you played Hydroid?

3 hours ago, (XB1)DisGrl said:

Mirage

Requires line of sight, use of weapons and more than two buttons to come even close. The best Mirage can do with the parameters I gave would be to spam her Laser Disco Ball of Pain which, although is far-reaching, only deals alright damage on very narrow points while bouncing around the map, with line-of-sight. Her 3 is a damage boost (sometimes) that requires her to make weapon attacks to use. Same with her 1, which does give AoE but only to turn directional LoS damage into slightly wider LoS directional damage.

3 hours ago, (XB1)DisGrl said:

Ember.

WoF can only affect up to 5 targets at once. At 75% of Miasma's range at base. And then it becomes half of that. Accelerant will help, but Ember as no scaling vs increasing Armor and falls off far faster than Ember.

 

So that's 5 of the other Warframes who can't approach the damage Saryn outputs with the crazy laziness Saryn can employ to do it. Got anyone else?

EDIT: Please note that I have nothing against these 5 frames I mentioned. I think it's reasonable that they ought to move and shoot, etc. in this shooter game to be effective.

Edited by SenorClipClop
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1 hour ago, Teridax68 said:

I'm sorry, what? So what is the truth, then? Is the game multiplayer or is it not?

It's falsely advertised as a coopertative game.  It has multiplayer.  Asking this question is redundant as i've already defined what I am talking about and only serves to try and make me look bad.

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That's nice, but that is your own personal definition of a coop game, one that is much narrower than needs to be for an actual coop game to exist, again as evidenced by Warframe. Even if four players in a team completely ignore each other, they are nonetheless playing alongside each other in the same mission. Thus, the minimum requirement should be that these players do not actively harm each other's enjoyment of the mission, regardless of whether they're actually cooperating with each other.

I'm not going to get into circular logic with you.

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Um, no, not all content is soloable, and I cited multiple examples of pieces of content that becomes dysfunctional if one so attempts it in my above post. You cannot claim that I'm "brushing it off" when I have in fact comprehensively addressed your point, and when it is in fact you who are conspicuously ignoring my responses in order to attempt to repeat arguments that have been already refuted.

You cited tridalons and ESO.  Both have been done solo.  You're still brushing off THE point.  Which is me making the distinction between multiplayer and coop.  You view them as the same thing when they're not.  And i've specifically cited what would make it a true coop game.  Yes, by the loosest of terms playing with others can be called coop.  But if the bare minimum is your bar then there is nothing further to be said about this.

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Making one's own group is more convoluted and time-consuming than simply joining a random public match, and is contingent upon other people agreeing to do the exact same thing as you, all of which is discouraging to a player who simply wants to press a button, immediately join a mission with a team, and have a fun session without having to worry about a particular frame killing their fun. I am not making any "broad strokes" here, I am merely elaborating upon your handwaving of the experience of people other than yourself, which carries more negative implications than you seem willing to admit.

No it's not.  As I originally pointed out.  I have on more than one occasion been able to get a group together for simple relic cracking in under 5 minutes.  You're needlessly making it sound harder than it really is just to justify your feelings.  You don't want to make the effort to do so.  And it can be extrapolated that others might not want to.  Then just say so.  Instead of trying to make it out to be something it's not.

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So first off, it's not just healthier to me, as there are clearly far more people besides myself who have an issue with frames rendering entire missions completely uninteractive. Second, you are trying to pass your own perspective as the proper one, by pushing a ton of different (and questionable) opinions as if they were fact. That you do not personally consider it an issue if Saryn actively sucks the fun out of other people's play session does not invalidate the experience of these other players. I completely agree there there is no One True WayTM of making Saryn healthier, and here I'm just spitballing potential solutions, but at the end of the day, it is an objective fact that Saryn is rendering the game less pleasant for many players, and so due to the particularities of her own kit. Whether or not you personally feel the same is irrelevant.

This entire forum could agree with you.  That means jack all.  You still only speak for yourself.  The "facts" of the situation is saryn is intentionally designed as is.  The developers are aware of her powers and tweaked her post re-rework a few times.  She is performing as the way she is intended.  The developers are quite competent at stomping out balance problems.  To them power has to come at a cost.  Their cost is player interaction.  Saryn has to be doing quite a bit to keep everything going.  So her power is justified.

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... where exactly did DE say this? If you're basing yourself off of what DE said, then please, by all means, point to where they said this. The fact that you didn't mention DE at all when making that bizarre claim makes this come across as an attempt at backtracking more than anything else, because your formulation of this opinion definitely made it look like that opinion came from you. Moreover, even if you were merely citing DE, you also expressed that opinion uncritically, as if it were fact, so even if it is not an opinion you came up with, it is certainly an opinion you endorse, which brings me back to the criticism you are attempting to evade here. It is a double standard to expect Saryn's teammates to sacrifice their fun for her sake, while refusing any change to Saryn that would compromise on whichever hypothetical enjoyment players get out of specific parts of her kit to make her more fun to play with. If you do not believe Saryn's teammates should have to sacrifice their play just to make her feel better, by all means, please state so clearly.

Nah.  I don't play with loaded statements.  I have mentioned several times that DE has gave us these tools (solo/group making) specifically so people can tailor their experience exactly how they want it.

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Hold on there. Overwatch is a PvP game, whereas Warframe is a PvE game: any single thing a player can do in Overwatch can be said to be detrimental to the enjoyment of another player, by your own logic. It's not that fun to get CCed, but it's also not that fun to die, or to lose a match (at least, past a certain threshold anyway). All of that is considered acceptable, however, precisely because of the PvP nature of Overwatch, where players are specifically pitted against other players. The near-totality of Warframe does not do this at all, and as such there is no reason for any one player to make another player's experience less fun in any PvE mission. As such, your analogy is terrible, and absolutely does not fit a discussion on frames that diminish the experience of other players in PvE play. 

You cannot be serious.  You are very clearly arguing that players can and do effect other players in a negative/positive way.  There for it being a pvp game does not matter.  we're referring to players effecting players here.  The attempt to write off this point just because it's a pvp game alone is noted.

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I'm sorry, which "kind of gameplay" does Warframe not support? If you're talking about PvP gameplay a la Overwatch, I wholeheartedly agree, Warframe is not made to be a PvP game and should probably stop trying. If you mean multiplayer PvE gameplay, I'd say that claim is laughable, as Warframe was built from the ground up to be played in coop. Even if it were somehow designed as a solo game initially, the fact is that the game is currently massively multiplayer, and so should hold to rules of a good multiplayer experience. Speaking of passing one's opinion as fact, you are yet again insisting upon the laughable notion that it's not a problem for frames to ruin the experience of other players: why? Why is this true? How can this be true in a game where the majority of people play multiplayer?

It does not support coop play.  It supports multiplayer.  One is specific.  the other is generalistic.  But even humoring your idea of them being the same still doesn't change what I was saying.  The game doesn't do a good job of supporting coop play.  Because you're not rewarded or encouraged to do anything with another player once he's in your mission.  You do not share loot pools.  His death doesn't take away from how many times you can die.  There are no encouraged synergies between kits and the few that exist are go unused by the casual player.  The only reason to ever bring someone else along is to have more spawns for more farming.  Nothing more.

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So what is the truth, then? Do her spores spread far on their own, or do they have trouble spreading? It doesn't seem like there's the clearest understanding of Saryn's kit here.

The initial cast on the person always spreads spores on death.  But enemies who are infected do not spread spores if they die to a spore tick.  They will spread from dying to anything else wether the spore is popped or not.  So initially they can spread far as long as saryn is using something efficient to spread the initial batch.  Once the map or most of it is infected it is up to the combination of saryn and her allies to keep this coverage (outside ESO.)  And this is due to enemy spawn behavior and density.  Every other mode outside ESO spawns enemies in too small groups and in waves.  meaning if saryn's spores reach a corner of the map with no current enemies it starts a cascade effect that saryn herself can't maintain.

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I didn't know pressing 4 was an insurmountably difficult task. Moreover, merely describing Saryn's kit does not justify how it impacts on the experience of other players. Whether or not allies help the spread of her Spores, Saryn can still single-handedly kill enemies and make her spores spread on her own (she has the tools for both), which frequently happens in missions she enters, even outside of ESO. The simple fact that she can do this, and in fact does do this, is what makes her unfun to play with, because a game in which Saryn uses Spores and Miasma to single-handedly kill enemies from long distances is a game where other players walk through an empty map, and couldn't help her if they tried.

Maybe if you actually spent a good amount of time playing saryn you'd understand that saryn isn't simply mashing buttons.  Her entire gameplay (unless you make a different build.  like a melee focused one,) revolves around spawn management.  The fact that you think all saryn's use her 4 often let alone it being the optimal way for her to play shows your lack of understanding on her kit and thus your suggestions to her kit null.

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... where? Which situation are you referring to? How exactly can you prove that Saryn never spreads her spores enough for her to actively dampen the play of her allies? As it stands, clearly she's doing enough of it for players to call her out on it, so you are wrong here, plain and simple. Alternatively, hundreds if not thousands of players are experiencing some mass hallucination all at the same time, and while I'm sure you'd be inclined to believe that if it meant never changing Saryn, you'd perhaps have to try to provide proof first, as that is indeed the claim you are making here.

You said she doesn't need to spread her spores everywhere.  So I then followed that logic train to state that if her spores are not everywhere then her allies are clearly capable of killing things.  Because she's not killing everything.  Not hard to follow.

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Actually, it is, because what I'm saying is that even in the worst case scenario, where Saryn somehow messes up her plague, she can immediately get it back up and running, meaning there is zero real downtime to her mass-killing potential. If she plays properly, however, she wouldn't even need to do this, because Spores and Miasma are both enough to propagate her plague naturally throughout missions. You cannot honestly claim that I'm "just hearing what I want to hear" when I am the one directly addressing your arguments, and you are expressly ignoring them in order to repeat yourself. 

False.  If her spores die out her damage drops massively the longer she isn't spreading.

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Downplaying what? I never denied that Limbo can be useful, I just said that he can and does make missions frustrating for players, and that in itself is a problem. Again, you are implicitly dismissing the criticisms of thousands more players because of your own personal opinion: you genuinely seem to believe that the entire state of the game can be judged purely based on whether or not you personally consider something a problem, which is impacting on your ability to debate sensibly in this conversation. Your opinion is not the only one that matters, and whether you like it or not, many players criticize Limbo for the same reasons I pointed out, so that criticism is indeed valid.

It's no more a problem than any other frame being improperly played.  As I mentioned previously.  Doesn't matter how many people agree.  That doesn't make an assertion more or less objectively correct.

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There is a critical difference you seem to be missing between a frame being "useless" and a frame actively damaging the experience of other players. Even if an Excal doesn't play well, so long as they're not doing anything deliberately trollish like wandering off in an Interception mission or leeching a bounty, they're not actively harming the experience of other players, who can simply play the mission normally from start to finish and have a good time. This is a conclusion you should have arrived to on your own, considering how you previously stated that multiplayer in Warframe is simply 4 players apparently ignoring each other (so, once more, there is a fundamental contradiction between the excuses you give out in defense of Saryn). By contrast, as mentioned above, if a Limbo accidentally Banishes the wrong target, that alone directly and negatively impacts on the experience of other affected players, and is enough to contribute to Limbo's negative overall reputation. Again, there is a reason why Limbo gets flak for being unfun to play with, and not Excal.

As see here is where I pointed out something and you decided to ignore it.  in my excal example (and a bit of my limbo among some other spots) I was referring to content where having other players would be needed beyond simple farming.  So like if you were doing endless runs, as an example.  Yes.  In star chart content an excal can mess up and it not be a big deal.  By that same note a saryn killing everything is also not a big deal.  Because at that kind of content you can run any number of combinations and be an effective mass murdering player.  Also excal got plenty of flak for not being fun to play with post rework.  Specifically because "he could spam his waves at a distance and murder everything."

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And, as has already been pointed out, the fact that these frames can be great with other players is utterly irrelevant to the fact that they can and frequently do negatively impact on the experience of other players. There is no strawmanning to be had when I am pointing out simple facts about certain frames and the reason why these frames routinely get criticized. By contrast, this is but one more incidence of you deliberately ignoring or failing to understand an argument made previously, just so that you can repeat a previous argument of yours that already got refuted.

It's not irrelevant because you're calling their design into question.  If your point was that frames can be played in such a way that can be annoying to other frames you should have stated that.  If your assertion is that they're inherently flawed because they can be played in a specific way then you're overreaching and there's nothing more to be said.

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Again, this is irrelevant, because if poor play means a player actively makes the game less fun for others with some (and not all) frames, then there is a problem. Your attempts at downplaying this by pointing out to the potential good these frames can do is, once more, completely irrelevant to this fact, as the ability for a frame to do good is not incompatible with its ability to do wrong if its design is poor.

Nope.

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Sweetie, your arguments have been nothing but excuses. It is also particularly delicious that you would accuse me of "being dismissive of things that are straight up counters to [my] arguments" immediately after dismissing the opinions and criticisms of hundreds to thousands more players on the matter, for the simple reason that you personally do not agree with them. Your rant here is psychological projection, pure and simple, particularly as I have taken great care to answer your arguments in detail, point by point. If you disagree, please point out how your claims here aren't hypocritical.

"sweetie"  Nah.  We're done after this.

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Then perhaps stop trying to dispute that fact? It's like you can't stop yourself from contradicting every single argument made by someone you consider an opponent in this conversation.

Very specifically stated i'm disputing your claim on poor design.  Not that frames can be played in an annoying way.

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... why? Again, you seem to be relying on some assumption that you haven't yet made clear. Why exactly is a frame not poorly designed if its kit is capable of actively harming the experience of other players? I've made my case already in my above posts, yet you have yet to make yours here.

Because that's too broad of a scope.  You're using a hammer to put in screws.

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I do believe that every player has the right to interact with enemies on the map, yes. If you personally believe that right should only go to Saryn, and that her allies should bend over backwards for her sake, that's your own problem.

Nah I have no problems.  You're the one here complaining because you're not getting kills.  But nice way to turn it back on me.  Even though that's no where close to what I said.

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Ah yes, it is absolutely my fault that I didn't instantly teleport to the other side of the map and get a few kills before one of my allies murdered every opponent in the vicinity with the press of a button. How silly of me.

More needless cherry picking to again make me look bad.  Actually what most of these small quips are.  In fact you went out of your way to make this wall of quotes to make your argument bigger than it is.  It just boils down to you not getting the kills you want.  And instead of going and making your own experience (which fyi many games do not have the option) you whine and expect DE to fix your issue for you.

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Except I'm not asking to get plenty of kills here, I'm just asking to have at least some interaction with enemies when I play a mission, which I don't think is a particularly contentious opinion. Apparently, it is to you when it means reining back Saryn's ability to kill enemies from long distances and through walls even a little. One shouldn't have to play a nuke frame to be able to get kills, and even damage frames like Ash, Excalibur, Mesa and so on are going to have trouble killing enemies if a Saryn's around killing enemies from beyond line of sight. What you're implicitly asking for is for players to a) exclusively play Saryn or a similarly broken frame, b) heavily constrain one's access to missions just to avoid playing with those frames, or c) play normally and experience degraded quality of play in missions where any problem frame is present. I don't know about you, but I wouldn't call any of these options appealing.

If you're playing a pub game as a melee build (especially in a popular farming node) you should not be expecting to get a lot of kills.  Saryn is sub optimal at nuking in standard content.  Octavia and banshee could do far better with much less effort from the player.  If saryn is sitting in your defense mission killing everything any other dps frame can do comparably.  You do realize nukes don't play well with other nukes right?  Frames in general do not play well with eachother.  this is what i've tried to say since the beginning.  Any frame is capable of doing the entire star chart by itself with no problem.  This is going to bring issues in a squad.  And the only actual way to address this is to rebuild the game from the ground up.

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... to you.

... to you. Again, I am by no means the only player giving out this criticism, as noted by this very thread, so it's rather bizarre that you would attempt to pretend that I'm this isolated individual giving out opinions nobody else agrees with. I am certainly not advocating "change for the sake of change" here, as I clearly pointed out issues specific to Saryn that I think warrant changes, yet from the overall tone and framing of your replies, it feels like you're genuinely scared that my criticism may catch the attention of someone higher up and cause a change, which is why you're trying so desperately to dismiss opinions contrary to your own here. In a debate where the only two options are that either you're wilfully denying valid opinions and facts, or thousands of players are all being delusional in the same way at the same time, you still seem to stand by the latter, simply because you can't seem to stand the possibility of being wrong.

Playing the numbers game again.  To assume you have any impact on my emotional being is rather egotistical of you.  If DE did change saryn she'd probably become even stronger.  Or it would be a side grade change that is neither a nerf nor a buff.  I highly doubt they would touch her lethality in any major way.  As her spore design was very intentional.

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Saryn is at her third redesign already, received multiple hotfixes after the last one, and is still considered a balance problem. This is also in an environment where DE nerfed Ember to the ground precisely because she was too good at killing enemies through walls. You cannot in good faith hold her current design or balance as absolute, particularly since Warframe is a game in constant evolution. Speaking of passing opinion as fact, here you are doing it again, by pretending that Saryn is perfect and flawless simply because you said so. As a side note, if Spores can't deal lethal damage, they can keep up automatically, so you wouldn't need to recast unless you somehow minimize your range. For all the talk around Saryn, it doesn't quite seem like you entirely understand how she works.

The fact that you're backing/citing embers changes at all is hilarious.  She still kills enemies through walls in low level content.  Which is where the change was targeted for according to DE.  The change ACTUALLY just requires the player to interact with her kit more.  At best prevents her from afk farming for oxium on a specific node which they changed anyway despite this.  For someone who insists that her 4 is used regularly by an optimal saryn it's funny that you'd claim that I don't understand how she works.  My point stands.  if her lethality was removed then she wouldn't need to build up spores anymore.  Which is just dumbing down her gameplay and asking less of the player in terms of kit interaction.  There are better kits that are designed purely for debuffing.  If I wanted only that i'd go play them.  I play saryn to both debuff and kill.  Removing one aspect of her kit just because of a player made issue is change for the sake of change.

Because in any content that she can nuke in reliably so can several other frames.  Any content she can trivialize other frames can as well.  Even if saryn was optimal outside ESO optimal doesn't matter because no content asks of that for a player.  Because player power has sky rocketed and now players are perfectly capable of self sustaining whilst killing in several ways.  I've nothing further to add here.  You do you.

Edited by (XB1)Knight Raime
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good god, this again?

I played saryn earlier for a few matches and enjoyed myself. My friends also enjoyed the help and never complained. To be quite honest, I get more complaints when I play Mesa. I love Saryn as she is and if she is nerfed to appease butthurt players I'll bin her. She's not busted op. She's only great against grineer... which means that people on Hydron-- a super repetitive and boring mission for ranking things up-- are complaining again. Go figure.

So many players with 'secondhand experience' whining about a frame they don't even understand. Mod just about any frame properly and they will excel at their role. Be mad at the mods, not the frame.

 

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2 hours ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

It's falsely advertised as a coopertative game. 

Oh, so it's false advertizing now? Is Big Warframe conspiring to trick the sheeple into believing they're playing with other human beings?

2 hours ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

It has multiplayer. 

Which is it, then? Does the game have multiplayer or does it not? Moreover, how can you continue establishing this nonsensical pretense when one of your core arguments about Saryn is that she somehow needs teammates to do her work?

2 hours ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

Asking this question is redundant as i've already defined what I am talking about and only serves to try and make me look bad.

I'm sorry, but if your primary concern in an argument is whether or not you "look bad", civil debate is probably not what you're trying to have. As it stands, my question was simple and, while it was certainly founded upon criticism of your arguments, it did not attack you directly. There is a difference between criticism of your arguments and criticism of your person, and if you think having your arguments analyzed or criticized makes you "look bad", once again you may not be at home in an online forum, where people with different opinions come to talk with each other.

2 hours ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

I'm not going to get into circular logic with you.

And this is circular logic... why? Just so we're clear, circular logic occurs when the premise of an argument is the same as its conclusion. In the argument I made, the premise was that multiple people clearly play together in the same sessions in Warframe, and the conclusion was that the game is therefore multiplayer, as that is by definition what a multiplayer game is. Subsequently, that was used as the premise for my next point, whose conclusion was that players should therefore not interfere negatively with each others' play. Where then is there circularity?

2 hours ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

You cited tridalons and ESO.  Both have been done solo.

Sure, but in how much time? For how many waves? With how much of a success rate? Does this say in any way that this content is designed for solo play? What about relic runs, which you have so conveniently omitted: has any player been able to choose from four different relics at a time when playing entirely solo?

2 hours ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

 You're still brushing off THE point.  Which is me making the distinction between multiplayer and coop.  You view them as the same thing when they're not.  And i've specifically cited what would make it a true coop game.  Yes, by the loosest of terms playing with others can be called coop.  But if the bare minimum is your bar then there is nothing further to be said about this.

I'm sorry, what exactly is the difference, and why is it relevant to this subject? The only "point" here is that you are trying to create a false dichotomy between multiplayer and multiplayer, in a manner that has strictly no pertinence to the topic of avoiding anti-multiplayer design. I can agree with you that one can define a "coop" subtype of multiplayer where players are expected to work tightly with each other, and Warframe is definitely not that kind of game, but then again, why does this matter?

2 hours ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

No it's not.  As I originally pointed out.  I have on more than one occasion been able to get a group together for simple relic cracking in under 5 minutes.

That's lovely, except joining a typical public matchmaking session typically takes about two seconds, if not less. You are effectively asking players to take 150 times as much time to start any session they wish to play.

2 hours ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

 You're needlessly making it sound harder than it really is just to justify your feelings. 

And you're needlessly glossing over the very real convolutions and inconveniencing tied to conspicuously avoiding public matchmaking just to justify your feelings. As shown above, my own criticism isn't based simply on feeling, so much as a basic awareness of math, and the simple knowledge that, no matter how much you try to downplay the subject, you are in effect asking players to inconvenience themselves in some form or another.

2 hours ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

You don't want to make the effort to do so.  And it can be extrapolated that others might not want to.  Then just say so.  Instead of trying to make it out to be something it's not.

Let's see, if you were given the choice between option A and option B, and option B was the exact same as option A, only strictly less convenient, which one would you go for? Thought so.

2 hours ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

This entire forum could agree with you.  That means jack all.  You still only speak for yourself.

The exact same can be said for yourself, so perhaps try not to put forth your opinions as if they were objective fact. As it stands, you also seem to be missing the point: the very fact that this criticism not only exists, but is also repeated by many players across many social media, is by definition evidence of an existing problem. Even if you do not personally consider Saryn to be a problem, the fact remains that many people do consider her to be a problem, and cite how she diminishes their play experience. Moreover, it can be objectively shown that Saryn can do certain things, and those things she can do can then be tied to general knowledge of best practices in videogame design, wherein a contradiction can be found. In more concrete terms, Saryn can kill enemies before her allies can get to them, and depriving players of combat in a combat-based game is generally not considered to be good design. You may not feel like this is a problem, but that does not stop this from being true.

2 hours ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

The "facts" of the situation is saryn is intentionally designed as is.  The developers are aware of her powers and tweaked her post re-rework a few times.  She is performing as the way she is intended.  The developers are quite competent at stomping out balance problems. 

Sure, Saryn is intentionally designed and balanced as is... just as she was intentionally designed and balanced "as is" in a completely different state multiple times before. To say that things are as they should be, simply because they exist in their current state, is an utterly laughable argument to make in a game that has been in continuous ongoing development since its inception. Moreover, while I can certainly agree that the developers at DE are competent, and in fact very talented, I would not say that they are the best at "stomping out balance problems", as the game is currently full of them, as noted again by the many facts and criticisms players point out daily.

2 hours ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

To them power has to come at a cost.  Their cost is player interaction.  Saryn has to be doing quite a bit to keep everything going.  So her power is justified.

I'm sorry, what? Are you seriously trying to say that Saryn is balanced around not being fun to play with?

2 hours ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

Nah.  I don't play with loaded statements.  I have mentioned several times that DE has gave us these tools (solo/group making) specifically so people can tailor their experience exactly how they want it.

Sure, but where? Asking you to substantiate your baseless claims isn't a "loaded statement", it's not even a statement, it's a question. You're simply dodging a request for proof here, which in the end merely comes across as you fabricating claims entirely.

2 hours ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

You cannot be serious.  You are very clearly arguing that players can and do effect other players in a negative/positive way.  There for it being a pvp game does not matter.  we're referring to players effecting players here.  The attempt to write off this point just because it's a pvp game alone is noted.

Where? How exactly are you defining negative or positive interaction here, and to which degree of abstraction? Do you even understand what is being argued, or how PvP games differ from PvE games? If not, perhaps you should keep an eye out for when a Grineer Butcher comes to the feedback forums to complain about how they got one-shot.

2 hours ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

It does not support coop play.  It supports multiplayer.  One is specific.  the other is generalistic.

So every time I heal an ally as Trinity, or buff an ally's damage as Mesa, I'm just imagining things, then?

2 hours ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

 But even humoring your idea of them being the same still doesn't change what I was saying.  The game doesn't do a good job of supporting coop play.

Speaking of circular logic, here's a good example: according to you, the game does not support coop play... therefore it does not support coop play. Your premise and your conclusion are the same. If you were to actually humor my idea, you wouldn't start by repeating your immediate previous statement that you're claiming to hold as wrong for the sake of the argument. It feels at this point like you're just throwing out random argument terms without a proper understanding of what those terms signify.

2 hours ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

Because you're not rewarded or encouraged to do anything with another player once he's in your mission. You do not share loot pools.  His death doesn't take away from how many times you can die.  There are no encouraged synergies between kits and the few that exist are go unused by the casual player.  The only reason to ever bring someone else along is to have more spawns for more farming.  Nothing more.

Yes, let's just forget the host of buff abilities on frames that are specifically made to interact with allies, and the simple fact that having players around doing stuff will by nature influence the map, and thus interact with the player. Are you sure this is Warframe you're describing?

2 hours ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

The initial cast on the person always spreads spores on death.  But enemies who are infected do not spread spores if they die to a spore tick.  They will spread from dying to anything else wether the spore is popped or not.  So initially they can spread far as long as saryn is using something efficient to spread the initial batch.  Once the map or most of it is infected it is up to the combination of saryn and her allies to keep this coverage (outside ESO.)  And this is due to enemy spawn behavior and density. 

So then, do her spores spread far on their own, or do they have trouble spreading? Copy-pasting stuff that can be read from the wiki doesn't really prevent the fact that you're dodging the question and giving out a non-answer.

2 hours ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

Every other mode outside ESO spawns enemies in too small groups and in waves.  meaning if saryn's spores reach a corner of the map with no current enemies it starts a cascade effect that saryn herself can't maintain.

I'm sorry, are we pretending that Miasma just doesn't exist? Like, it's a a radial nuke that deals damage through walls, and is specifically designed to synergize with Spores on enemies. The fact that you seem unaware of this fact may explain why you believe that Saryn is incapable of spreading her plague on her own.

2 hours ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

Maybe if you actually spent a good amount of time playing saryn you'd understand that saryn isn't simply mashing buttons.

And I said this... where? This is a rather interesting straw man to draw when strictly none of my criticism of Saryn even comes close to the notion of button-mashing, particularly as I don't personally believe she's a particularly button-mashy frame anymore.

2 hours ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

Her entire gameplay (unless you make a different build.  like a melee focused one,) revolves around spawn management.  The fact that you think all saryn's use her 4 often let alone it being the optimal way for her to play shows your lack of understanding on her kit and thus your suggestions to her kit null.

And I've said that Saryns use her 4 often... where? I've merely stated that a decent Saryn player will use her 4, period, and it is you who are putting words in my mouth by pretending that I'm claiming that she's a spammy frame. By contrast, you seem to be under the impression that her 4 doesn't exist or help in any way towards spreading her Spores, which doesn't exactly make you come across as a foremost expert on all things Saryn. The fact that you so quickly jump to the conclusion that I shouldn't have any say in this discussion after such poor argumentation suggests more of a vested interest in finding an excuse to declare victory for yourself and save face, rather than a desire engage in civil debate. If you really want to stand by such needlessly harsh gatekeeping, then you may want to exclude yourself from the conversation, seeing how you've now demonstrated at length a severe degree of ignorance regarding Saryn's core functionality, particularly with regards to Miasma and how it relates to her plague management.

2 hours ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

You said she doesn't need to spread her spores everywhere.  So I then followed that logic train to state that if her spores are not everywhere then her allies are clearly capable of killing things.  Because she's not killing everything.  Not hard to follow.

It's not hard to disprove either, because you don't seem to quite understand how distances work: just because Saryn isn't killing the literal entire map in one go doesn't mean she can't cover a sufficiently large area that her allies can't get to enemies in time. The simple fact that Saryn can quickly and easily cover large rooms in ESO is evidence of this. Unless you can demonstrate that players can somehow instantly travel any distance across any map (good luck with that), your argument here is bunk.

2 hours ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

False.  If her spores die out her damage drops massively the longer she isn't spreading.

"The longer she isn't spreading" being the key factor here. Why would Saryn intentionally have her damage fall off when she can just as easily cast her 1 immediately? Again, this does not demonstrate the best understanding of Saryn, her plague, or just the way abilities generally work in Warframe.

2 hours ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

It's no more a problem than any other frame being improperly played.  As I mentioned previously.  Doesn't matter how many people agree.  That doesn't make an assertion more or less objectively correct.

Repeating yourself doesn't make you any less wrong. As it stands, you have added strictly nothing to this part of the discussion, nor have you responded in any way to the points that were raised about Limbo, particularly since the claim that his issues are somehow no different from any other frame's have been disproven extensively now. As such, the point stands, and the problems with Limbo, Ember, Saryn, and so on are distinct from those of any random frame simply playing poorly, as they are based on the particularities of their kit.

2 hours ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

As see here is where I pointed out something and you decided to ignore it.  in my excal example (and a bit of my limbo among some other spots) I was referring to content where having other players would be needed beyond simple farming.  So like if you were doing endless runs, as an example.  Yes. 

This is an interesting shift of the goalposts, one that does absolutely nothing to contest the point you are going against. Which endless run are we even talking about? How badly are we talking about here with respect to the Excal's play? I already mentioned the case of Interception, which is a particular scenario, but as it stands, unless a player is trolling in some form through total inactivity or a refusal to follow the objective, it does not take much for them to be able to contribute, not even in endless runs.

2 hours ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

In star chart content an excal can mess up and it not be a big deal.  By that same note a saryn killing everything is also not a big deal.  Because at that kind of content you can run any number of combinations and be an effective mass murdering player.

Not every "mass murdering player" can mass murder enemies at long distances through walls, and it is this distinction that makes Saryn particularly unfun to play with. Again, no matter what kind of spin you try to put on it, having a player eliminate all interaction from the map for other players is not generally regarded as fun.

2 hours ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

 Also excal got plenty of flak for not being fun to play with post rework.  Specifically because "he could spam his waves at a distance and murder everything."

Indeed he did, which is why he got nerfed via damage falloff on his waves. So nice of you to mention this example; perhaps there are indeed lessons to be drawn here that could help improve Saryn...

2 hours ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

It's not irrelevant because you're calling their design into question.  If your point was that frames can be played in such a way that can be annoying to other frames you should have stated that.  If your assertion is that they're inherently flawed because they can be played in a specific way then you're overreaching and there's nothing more to be said.

... why? In what way does your argument even remotely make sense? If a frame's kit is designed in such a way that they can harm the experience of other players, that is a problem, whether you like it or not. It becomes even more of a problem if this method of play just so happens to be a valid, even optimal way of playing those warframes, as is the case for Saryn, Ember, Equinox, and so on. I am allowed to call the design of frames into question, and while you are allowed to disagree, you don't get to tell me what I can and cannot question in this discussion.

2 hours ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

Nope.

Yuh-huh.

2 hours ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

"sweetie"  Nah.  We're done after this.

In other words: "this argument bothers me and I don't have a good answer to it, therefore I'll make up some excuse to ignore it, but still conspicuously signal that I'm deliberately ignoring the argument". If you really are truly "done after this", why did you write so much afterwards? 🤔

2 hours ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

Very specifically stated i'm disputing your claim on poor design.  Not that frames can be played in an annoying way.

Except whenever I bring up the fact that some warframes can be and are played in an annoying way, your immediate response even now is to automatically object. This is why it feels like there's this compulsion to answer everything I say like a contradiction, even when there is no contradiction to be had.

2 hours ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

Because that's too broad of a scope.  You're using a hammer to put in screws.

... why? What is the hammer here, and what is the screw? Why is the scope too broad? Nothing you just said makes a lick of sense.

2 hours ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

Nah I have no problems.  You're the one here complaining because you're not getting kills.  But nice way to turn it back on me.  Even though that's no where close to what I said.

Actually, you said this:

On 2018-12-01 at 4:01 AM, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

Saryn needs allies to help her keep her spores going.  She can't be everywhere.  If she doesn't keep them up evenly then they smother out and stop spreading.  her spore ability is built like this on purpose so her team can help her.

And this, in your very own post here:

4 hours ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

She is performing as the way she is intended.  The developers are quite competent at stomping out balance problems.  To them power has to come at a cost.  Their cost is player interaction.  Saryn has to be doing quite a bit to keep everything going.  So her power is justified.

So you are rather explicitly saying that you consider Saryn to be designed and balance to lessen the enjoyment of other players for her sake. As such, not only am I the one stating the truth here, you can't seem to maintain your opinions consistent when challenged on this fact, so it seems like the whole "Nah I have no problems" (your ridiculous words, not mine) act may be more self-persuasion than anything else. It's also quite interesting that you would accuse me of "turning it back on [you]" when you are the one lashing out at me for "not getting kills" (?). If there is something you don't seem to have a problem with, it's your belief that it is justified for other players to have a diminished play experience for the sake of Saryn, and that in itself is a problem.

 

2 hours ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

More needless cherry picking to again make me look bad.  Actually what most of these small quips are.  In fact you went out of your way to make this wall of quotes to make your argument bigger than it is.  It just boils down to you not getting the kills you want.  And instead of going and making your own experience (which fyi many games do not have the option) you whine and expect DE to fix your issue for you.

How exactly does one "make [their] own experience" when the experience in question is an empty map? Telling players to go make their own Saryn-less matches isn't a valid answer, it's just an attempt to place the burden of responsibility onto someone other than the offending frame or player. You are right: when I play a mission with Saryn, I often don't get the kills I want, because enemies on the map die before I encounter them. I'd say I have a right to complain, because when I play Warframe, I expect to be able to play multiplayer, but also be able to engage in at least some degree of combat. You have no business framing this as an excessive demand when you are the one asking players to bend over backwards for Saryn's sake (and I don't even know if this is due to vested interest, because it doesn't seem like you play Saryn). If you are afraid that this will make you "look bad", you are absolutely right: asking other players to stop having fun just because you say so will make you look bad, because it is simply a rotten attitude to have when playing a multiplayer game, and engaging with a multiplayer community.

2 hours ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

If you're playing a pub game as a melee build (especially in a popular farming node) you should not be expecting to get a lot of kills.

... what? Why? Melee may not have the range of most weapons, but unless all enemies across the map are all dying at the same time, there will be plenty of opportunities to engage in melee combat, and in fact it's not difficult in many missions to experience a majority of melee combat even without intentionally focusing on melee.

2 hours ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

Saryn is sub optimal at nuking in standard content. 

LOL

2 hours ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

Octavia and banshee could do far better with much less effort from the player.  If saryn is sitting in your defense mission killing everything any other dps frame can do comparably.  You do realize nukes don't play well with other nukes right?

Oh, for sure, nuke frames don't play well with other nuke frames... if all of those nuke frames can kill enemies through walls. When line of sight starts getting involved, nuke frames play just fine with each other. In the end, the issue is simply that Saryn, and frames with the same problems as Saryn, don't play well with other frames, period.

2 hours ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

Frames in general do not play well with eachother.  this is what i've tried to say since the beginning.

... why?

2 hours ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

Any frame is capable of doing the entire star chart by itself with no problem.  This is going to bring issues in a squad. 

... why? Also, why is the Star Chart suddenly now the only mission content in Warframe?

2 hours ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

And the only actual way to address this is to rebuild the game from the ground up.

... no? Many players here have proposed far simpler solution that could already address some major pain points, namely the pain point that is Saryn.

2 hours ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

Playing the numbers game again. 

"You're showing that, unlike me, your opinions don't exist in a vacuum, and I don't like it".

2 hours ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

To assume you have any impact on my emotional being is rather egotistical of you. 

I'm not the one constantly asking my interlocutor to not say things that would make me "look bad", so yes, I'd have to say that I do seem to be having some sort of impact, as evidenced here as well by your attempts at lashing out. It is certainly not my intention to upset you, but it is also not my fault if you are upset by disagreement and having your arguments refuted.

2 hours ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

If DE did change saryn she'd probably become even stronger.  Or it would be a side grade change that is neither a nerf nor a buff.  I highly doubt they would touch her lethality in any major way.  As her spore design was very intentional.

As were her previous kits, but look how that turned out. Again, you're just repeating yourself here, while entertaining some rather dubious fantasies regarding Saryn's balance. Claiming that something will never change, in a game that constantly changes, will only set you up for failure.

2 hours ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

The fact that you're backing/citing embers changes at all is hilarious.  She still kills enemies through walls in low level content.  Which is where the change was targeted for according to DE.  The change ACTUALLY just requires the player to interact with her kit more.  At best prevents her from afk farming for oxium on a specific node which they changed anyway despite this. 

This is all very nice in theory, except that's not how it turned out in practice. Ember is certainly not a great frame in high-level content (she never was to begin with), she just had her problems worsened by a rework that is exceedingly unpopular among the community for that same reason. She doesn't engage with anything, she still auto-kills enemies up to a certain level range, whereupon one switches to Equinox to do the same, but with better scaling.

2 hours ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

For someone who insists that her 4 is used regularly by an optimal saryn it's funny that you'd claim that I don't understand how she works.  My point stands.

... why? You've just made a big huff about how you apparently understand how Saryn's 4 works, yet have completely forgotten to provide even a smidge of justification. Merely claiming that you know how Saryn works is not going to convince me or anyone else that you do, particularly since your extensive descriptions of Saryn and her functionality do not, in fact, demonstrate a good understanding, as you seem to have forgotten that her 4 exists entirely.

2 hours ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

 if her lethality was removed then she wouldn't need to build up spores anymore. Which is just dumbing down her gameplay and asking less of the player in terms of kit interaction. 

... why? I feel like I've asked you to justify this before, but instead you've just settled for repeating your unsupported claim. This isn't going to convince me or anyone else that you're right. Just to dig a little deeper into this, being able to reduce enemies to 1 health faster will always be desirable, as would be the ability to spread that plague farther and farther, so yes, there absolutely would be a drive to build up and spread a plague, even with the lethality removed from her Spores. Again, this is but one example out of infinite possibilities, but even so, the criticisms you are making of this suggestion don't seem to hold any weight.

2 hours ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

There are better kits that are designed purely for debuffing.  If I wanted only that i'd go play them.

Such as?

2 hours ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

I play saryn to both debuff and kill.  Removing one aspect of her kit just because of a player made issue is change for the sake of change.

But you'd still be able to kill enemies... using her 4. At the end of the day, it seems like your real fear here is that you'd be forced to use two buttons, rather than just one, when playing Saryn.

2 hours ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

Because in any content that she can nuke in reliably so can several other frames.  Any content she can trivialize other frames can as well.

Sure, some frames have similar problems, but not all frames do. I'm not saying Saryn is the only frame with problems, but that also isn't an excuse to gloss over the very real gameplay issues she creates. If you take issue with other frames, by all means, do raise the issue in a feedback thread of your own.

2 hours ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

 Even if saryn was optimal outside ESO optimal doesn't matter because no content asks of that for a player.  Because player power has sky rocketed and now players are perfectly capable of self sustaining whilst killing in several ways. 

Sure, but the discussion here isn't one of whether or not Saryn is optimal in different modes, it's whether or not she's healthy. It's perfectly fine, and to some degree inevitable, for certain frames, weapons and builds to be optimal in certain situations, and that is even a desirable quality when applied reasonably. What isn't fine is when a frame is capable of completely removing the challenge or interaction from a mission, and thereby diminishing the experience of other players, and that's a problem Saryn has, hence this thread.

2 hours ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

I've nothing further to add here.  You do you.

Fantastic! I'll hold you to this when you inevitably write your next reply on here. Until next time. 😉

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