As a new player I am little tired of "dumb" gameplay mechanics like Saryn - press 4 to kill map...

[DiabolusUrsus]

15 minutes ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

Yeah that was a misunderstanding on my part.  Apologies.

No apologies needed; no harm done. Misunderstandings happen - textual discussion is far from perfect, and leaves a lot of room for ambiguity.

I'm glad when misunderstandings can be cleared up.

15 minutes ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

I'm having a hard time seeing that in my head.  But this is likely due to my learning handicap.  I'd be fine with shortening grind time if shortcuts were still a lucrative thing for DE.

The typical argument goes something like this:

"But we need to nuke the map to speed up grinding because the grind is so bad otherwise!"

The idea is that we could slow down grinding but simply lower the grinding requirements to compensate.

It'd be like running a marathon at 10 mph vs. running a half-marathon at 5 mph. The completion time is roughly the same, but the distance is shorter.

15 minutes ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

I don't personally believe she is.  Likely what I see as OP is different compared to many others.  I usually have a bass ackwards view on things/understandings of terms.

I don't have a suggestion for that.  Sorry.  I was merely just trying to state that in my experience with gaming people usually like opting for challenge via mechanics over health/damage increase because mechanics ask a player to play something different/learn something new.

Well, this is actually a rather interesting opportunity. I certainly agree that mechanical difficulty is superior to sponge-difficulty.

However, TTK in Warframe is altogether too short for mechanical difficulty to be implemented. An enemy can't bring mechanical difficulty into play if they can't survive longer than 100 milliseconds or can't act due to being locked down permanently.

Players actually need to be nerfed pretty heavily for mechanical difficulty to be brought into the picture.

15 minutes ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

It is some what.  I don't think I got my point across exactly how I wanted it.

You're welcome to take another stab at it if you so choose. 🙂

15 minutes ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

Apologies.  I'm not trying to indicate that all nerfs being asked for are for the same reason.  Nor am I trying to devalue someone else's opinion/feelings.  I was just trying to clarify that even though i've been arguing against nerfing Saryn in here I'm not against her being changed.  In the same vein with me defending the game as is.  I suppose it would have just been easier for me to just say i'm not against change.  I'm just against specific changes being mentioned here.

Fair enough!

[Littlemike137]

People complain about saryn “killing entire crowds of enemies,” but every frame can do that.  It’s just that saryn might be the fastest.  Heck, why not complain about Ivara, ash, or nezha they can ignore spy missions.  Just because something is good at what they do doesn’t make them OP.  If you want to fight enemies, the way you want without saryn or another “nuker” just go solo, it allows you to play your way as slow or fast as you want.  If you can’t solo because you die, then team up and don’t complain if someone brings the best tool for the job to help you complete the mission 

[W3zeer]

Am 11.12.2018 um 18:43 schrieb Xepthrichros:

People who cooperate actually stay in games, regardless of who or what joins the party and don't scream on forums for nerfs. That latter of which is precisely what you and the topic starter are doing.

I think your defenition of the word "cooperation" is not the same as everyone elses. Little hint, the word does not come from tolerance.

Also your comments seem to revolve around the thought that you like the status quo and you want to prohibit others from voicing their opinion. Maybe you should grasp the concept that you're not the center of this world. As much as you like to say otherwise, people don't complain just to complain. They want changes because they care enough about the game to write some feedback they think could improve the game. For the Devs, this is far better than them silently leaving and never come back, which is exactly why feedback, including criticism, is activly encouraged. And not being satisfied that a large portion of the missions are nothing but a walking and pickup simulator for 75% of the team is an absolutly valid issue. How this is resolved is of course open to discussion, but just diminishing their experience will not help you. Just some advice: Before you enter a discussion, think about what you would like the other side to do. And then consider what it would take for them to convince you if your roles would be reversed. And if you answer this with "I want them to make me the center of their gaming experience and this argument has to be screamed as loudly as possible" then you get what you've written so far.

[Azrael_V]

On 2018-12-11 at 7:43 PM, Xepthrichros said:

People who cooperate actually stay in games, regardless of who or what joins the party and don't scream on forums for nerfs. That latter of which is precisely what you and the topic starter are doing.

Kinda have to agree. It shouldn't matter which frames and weapons other players are using when you join a public match cos you're supposed to adapt to each different squad. What you have here however are players who seem to check each and every frame that joins their squad in every public match. They then either leave based on the frame and weapons being used and/or whine on the forums later because they've been effectively outkilled, because everyones using Frame A or Weapon B and because they believe their playstyle is better and another's is soooooo boring. Get a grip. It's not about you.

Edited December 14, 2018 by Azrael_V

[Elementalos]

32 minutes ago, Azrael_V said:

Get a grip. It's not about you.

I mean isn't that the whole argument the people on the other side are making too? That when someone with a super destructive AoE hops into a multiplayer group they effectively monopolize the content. One person killing everything while three other people just kind of walk along and pick up loot feels like a pretty good example of the first person making it all about them

On 2018-12-11 at 7:28 AM, DiabolusUrsus said:

I was supporting an argument that shot down the idea that Saryn needed as much damage as she has for the purpose of downing high level enemies. 

 It may not be the whole story but I don't think we can completely dismiss scaling issues either. The way damage oriented frame skills scale into high tier content is kind of an issue Warframe has been struggling with for a while. 

[DiabolusUrsus]

8 minutes ago, Elementalos said:

It may not be the whole story but I don't think we can completely dismiss scaling issues either. The way damage oriented frame skills scale into high tier content is kind of an issue Warframe has been struggling with for a while. 

Actually, I'd argue that the reason Warframe is struggling is precisely because it tried to scale damage powers like CC powers... instead of stopping CC powers from scaling infinitely.

Seriously, step back and think about it for a second...

The whole point of scaling enemies is to out-scale players, so why are players supposed to scale at all?

Players should be balanced such that they can fairly handle enemies up to an official "maximum level," after which their gear and Warframes should start to lose efficacy as enemies start to level up. Depending on player skill they might be able to stretch the envelope, but IMO the second a player needs "scaling" damage they've strayed into imbalanced content. If there's anything that needs scaling damage to fight "balanced" enemies (i.e., up to official maximum level) then it is decidedly underpowered and should be buffed.

[MirageKnight]

3 hours ago, Elementalos said:

The way damage oriented frame skills scale into high tier content is kind of an issue Warframe has been struggling with for a while. 

Well...You're supposed to struggle and ultimately be stopped from progressing further by high tier content. That's what high teir content is intended and designed to do.

Facing off against increasing numbers of exponentially scaling enemies is DE's idea of "end game" for players, whether you all want to admit and accept that or not.

There is supposed to be a point in difficulty where players are forced to cut their losses and leave.

[Elementalos]

6 hours ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

Actually, I'd argue that the reason Warframe is struggling is precisely because it tried to scale damage powers like CC powers

6 hours ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

The whole point of scaling enemies is to out-scale players, so why are players supposed to scale at all?

I think the more accurate comparison here is trying to make damage powers scale like weapons. The amount of extra damage, particularly in the past, you can squeeze out of a frame is comparatively limited to the amount of different mod synergies you could stack to further optimize weapons. That's ultimately what leads to things like the soma prime meta that defined the endgame for a while and why addressing how frames themselves scale into endgame matters. 

Players scale for the sake of progression. You get stronger so you can take on stronger enemies, it's a core conceit of any even slightly RPG-ish system and even though Warframe's scaling curve is comparatively short it's still a feature of the game. The problem here is that powers scale on a much shorter curve than weapons and I think that's one of the reasons we keep ending up in this situation where on the one hand we get complaints like the OP and on the other a lot of ability damage skills end up being really questionable in any even remotely difficult content. 

Having a steadier progression curve could alleviate both problems to some extent. Granted, it wouldn't stop overgeared players from joining low level missions and steamrolling them, but that happens with weapons too and addressing that would require a more systemic look at how things change in this game (like how DE was supposed to remove Serration like... a year ago). 

6 hours ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

instead of stopping CC powers from scaling infinitely.

How do you stop CC powers from scaling? Durations and effects scaling down as enemy levels scale up? At some point you'd hit a threshold where CC stops being functional and then the meta shifts to emphasize utility powers instead of CC. Instead of widening the playing field dedicated CC frames just end up hitting a point of irrelevance too.

3 hours ago, MirageKnight said:

There is supposed to be a point in difficulty where players are forced to cut their losses and leave.

Sure, the problem is things fall off at different rates. What often ends up happening is less that people cut their losses and more that they turn to an increasingly narrow set of options and the frames and weapons they want to use are relegated to being 'specialists' in farming low level maps and that's lame.

[Sharkgoblin]

lol what a n00b, saryn's not about pressing 4 to wipe its about to press 1 and then 4 to wipe map 

[Teridax68]

5 hours ago, Elementalos said:

I think the more accurate comparison here is trying to make damage powers scale like weapons. The amount of extra damage, particularly in the past, you can squeeze out of a frame is comparatively limited to the amount of different mod synergies you could stack to further optimize weapons. That's ultimately what leads to things like the soma prime meta that defined the endgame for a while and why addressing how frames themselves scale into endgame matters. 

This isn't really a big surprise if you look at weapon and warframe builds: even a warframe built for pure Power Strength, and therefore damage, won't be able to completely fill their entire mod table with Power Strength mods, and even if they do so, the increase would only be additive without the presence of innate multipliers. Warframes also typically need some level of survivability, particularly when mods exist that can increase their total health by a massive amount. By contrast, weapon builds rely on several multiplicative levels of damage increases, based on raw damage, multishot, elemental damage, and often crit chance and damage. It is therefore obvious that, in the current situation, weapons are going to outdamage frames if both start on equal footing. The solution to this shouldn't be to power creep warframes, but to take out or nerf the mandatory weapon mods that hinder diversity of customization and do nothing but add unnecessary power.

5 hours ago, Elementalos said:

Players scale for the sake of progression. You get stronger so you can take on stronger enemies, it's a core conceit of any even slightly RPG-ish system and even though Warframe's scaling curve is comparatively short it's still a feature of the game. The problem here is that powers scale on a much shorter curve than weapons and I think that's one of the reasons we keep ending up in this situation where on the one hand we get complaints like the OP and on the other a lot of ability damage skills end up being really questionable in any even remotely difficult content.

What kind of progression, though? Classic RPGs and linear, finite-duration games can definitely afford to increase the player's power, because they're being pushed along a story and are having content matched to how far they've progressed, but this simply does not work in games that are meant to be infinitely replayable. Even long-lived MMORPGs like World of Warcraft suffer immensely because only a tiny portion of their total, vast content is ever usable at any given time to any player, and the rest is either inaccessible or too trivial to care about. Warframe has a similar problem, where so many players are now demanding endgame content because virtually nothing in the game can challenge them. It's great to make the player progress by, say, giving them more options to choose from, i.e. more frames or weapons, or giving them access to more advanced mechanics (e.g. spoiler mode), but making players "progress" by giving them more raw stats simply trivializes older content, and does not in fact make for content that is more challenging if the game's response to it is to simply increase enemy stats as well.

The problem right now with Warframe's scaling, as it is currently implemented, is that both DE and the players want to have their cake and eat it too: on one hand, players demand a challenge, and complain that high-level missions take too long to give them enemies that don't keel over in a couple of seconds, but on the other, we have some players here advocating for a means to have more frames auto-scale, and thereby defeat the entire point of enemy scaling in the first place. In a game where the only means of raising the difficulty setting is to increase enemy stats, it becomes difficult to make enemies more challenging when players are capable of instantly halving their opponents' health, and stripping them completely of health-multiplying armor (both of which Saryn contributes towards already). If we accept that enemies need to become more difficult by gaining more stats, then we need to take out the auto-scaling that's been implemented on frames and status effects, i.e. percent reductions to health, shields, armor, etc. If we instead want another form of difficulty, then we need to find out what that difficulty implies, and stop pretending that our desired endgame is to take on level 200 enemies or the like.

[EinheriarJudith]

54 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

The problem right now with Warframe's scaling, as it is currently implemented, is that both DE and the players want to have their cake and eat it too: on one hand, players demand a challenge, and complain that high-level missions take too long to give them enemies that don't keel over in a couple of seconds, but on the other, we have some players here advocating for a means to have more frames auto-scale, and thereby defeat the entire point of enemy scaling in the first place. In a game where the only means of raising the difficulty setting is to increase enemy stats, it becomes difficult to make enemies more challenging when players are capable of instantly halving their opponents' health, and stripping them completely of health-multiplying armor (both of which Saryn contributes towards already). If we accept that enemies need to become more difficult by gaining more stats, then we need to take out the auto-scaling that's been implemented on frames and status effects, i.e. percent reductions to health, shields, armor, etc. If we instead want another form of difficulty, then we need to find out what that difficulty implies, and stop pretending that our desired endgame is to take on level 200 enemies or the like.

Exactly this. id remove all aura's that aren't team/player buffs, remove "armor strip" from powers and damage, remove the ability to halve enemy HP by any means. doing so will allow enemies to out lvl the player like they should and DE can more accurately tune enemy scaling.

for something like this to happen they would also need to overhaul the damage system. imho OHKO and bullet sponge =/= challenge as ive said many times. what does equate to challenge is aggressiveness of enemies, enemies that are able to prevent you from getting easy headshots, enemies that are agile, enemies that do not move on a rail, enemies that actually actively protect other units in their groups. if a game needs to use stat boosting to fake difficulty its already failed at creating said difficulty.

Edited December 14, 2018 by EinheriarJudith

[DiabolusUrsus]

6 hours ago, Elementalos said:

I think the more accurate comparison here is trying to make damage powers scale like weapons. The amount of extra damage, particularly in the past, you can squeeze out of a frame is comparatively limited to the amount of different mod synergies you could stack to further optimize weapons. That's ultimately what leads to things like the soma prime meta that defined the endgame for a while and why addressing how frames themselves scale into endgame matters.

I think we're talking about somewhat different scaling here.

The Soma (either variant) wasn't dominant because it could fit better mod combinations; it was dominant because critical damage simply performs better than raw damage and it boosted crit chance high enough that it minimized the negative impact of the randomness.

I don't see much of a comparison there with, say, Spores scaling its own damage over time or Gara's ability to feed her Splinter Storm into insanity.

6 hours ago, Elementalos said:

Players scale for the sake of progression. You get stronger so you can take on stronger enemies, it's a core conceit of any even slightly RPG-ish system and even though Warframe's scaling curve is comparatively short it's still a feature of the game.

I disagree.

Progression (post-closed beta, at least) has always been handled through the acquisition and upgrade of the relevant mods.

Powers should not need to scale independently of those mods. As another example, Iron Skin's and Snow Globes damage absorption phases should be entirely unnecessary.

6 hours ago, Elementalos said:

The problem here is that powers scale on a much shorter curve than weapons and I think that's one of the reasons we keep ending up in this situation where on the one hand we get complaints like the OP and on the other a lot of ability damage skills end up being really questionable in any even remotely difficult content. 

Having a steadier progression curve could alleviate both problems to some extent. Granted, it wouldn't stop overgeared players from joining low level missions and steamrolling them, but that happens with weapons too and addressing that would require a more systemic look at how things change in this game (like how DE was supposed to remove Serration like... a year ago). 

I agree with the entirety of this assessment.

6 hours ago, Elementalos said:

How do you stop CC powers from scaling? Durations and effects scaling down as enemy levels scale up? At some point you'd hit a threshold where CC stops being functional and then the meta shifts to emphasize utility powers instead of CC. Instead of widening the playing field dedicated CC frames just end up hitting a point of irrelevance too.

Sort of.

There would be no interference whatsoever up to the "max" level (100, as an example). Beyond max level, enemies would start to benefit from reduced CC duration or potency (for example, they might be less affected by slows).

Utility powers should also hit a ceiling at about the same time. Simple damage reduction/bonus buffs will already start to fall off due to increasing health/damage, and I would fix things like Invisibility by making them toggles.

6 hours ago, Elementalos said:

Can't delete...

On a side note, I think it would he better for damage/CC to fall off more completely before enemy damage scales quite as high, giving players more of an opportunity to recognize they've gone too far and need to leave.

[Elementalos]

2 hours ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

The Soma (either variant) wasn't dominant because it could fit better mod combinations; it was dominant because critical damage simply performs better than raw damage and it boosted crit chance high enough that it minimized the negative impact of the randomness.

2 hours ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

Progression (post-closed beta, at least) has always been handled through the acquisition and upgrade of the relevant mods.

Teridax68 explains what I was going for really well a post up. The trouble is that for warframe powers, those mods don't really exist. My Soma had a raw damage mod, multiplied by a crit chance mod, further multiplied by a crit damage mod, further enhanced by status procs on crits and with some elemental damage and effects to tear up armor thrown on top for good measure.

By comparison if I just want one of my Warframe's innate damage skills to hit harder I can... grab some ability strength mods and maybe an augment depending on the ability in question. The options are much more limited and don't compound on each other to nearly the same effect. 

The result is that warframe powers scale poorly relative to the content they're in. Powers end up overbearing in low level content and then without some built in utility or scaling effect (I can see why I need to be more careful with how I use that word) anything with a flat number attached to it quickly falls off into irrelevance, long before the content itself actually becomes too hard to manage.

To try to illustrate what I mean: I remember when I first got back into Warframe I thought Frost was primarily a damage dealer because while progressing through the first chunk of the story his 2 could clear a whole hallway pretty much by itself, but even trying to keep my ability damage mod upgraded with each new planet in the mid and later sections of storyline it became increasingly less effective until eventually it just became a slow I used to help keep enemies pinned down while I blew them up with my increasingly powerful and increasingly modded guns. 

Not to say that I want Frost to do killer damage all game long per se, but just trying to emphasize that the damage on frame powers is really heavily frontloaded while the damage on guns is much more dependent on continuously upgrading your mods and therefore continue to improve for much longer and to a much higher ceiling.

3 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

The solution to this shouldn't be to power creep warframes, but to take out or nerf the mandatory weapon mods that hinder diversity of customization and do nothing but add unnecessary power.

I agree with this idea at least, but DE doesn't seem to want to do that anymore judging by the fact that I still have Serration on all my rifles. I also think it's a significantly larger undertaking to try to rescale everything else in the game to fit a more linear power curve than it would be just to make raw damage powers have better upgrade options and having better upgrade options would make it easier to make the powers function more consistently across different tiers of content.

 

Regardless of what sort of solution is optimal though, I think it's clear that there's a problem with how flat damage powers work in a game that relies on endlessly scaling up enemy HP and damage as a primary difficulty curve. They end up overbearing early on and irrelevant later, especially when other powers like hard CC and armor strip don't lose functionality over time.

[Teridax68]

48 minutes ago, Elementalos said:

I agree with this idea at least, but DE doesn't seem to want to do that anymore judging by the fact that I still have Serration on all my rifles. I also think it's a significantly larger undertaking to try to rescale everything else in the game to fit a more linear power curve than it would be just to make raw damage powers have better upgrade options and having better upgrade options would make it easier to make the powers function more consistently across different tiers of content.

This is true, though I also feel stuff like Damage 3.0 has been delayed significantly just because DE's tunnel-visioned way too hard this year on delivering Fortuna early, to the detriment of all other projects in their pipeline, rather than been called off entirely. I also feel upgrading raw damage powers is more easily said than done, since simply buffing damage mods risks making frames like Saryn trivialize even higher levels of content (and therefore risks power creeping the game further and raising starting enemy levels yet again), whereas buffing individual frames to auto-scale would risk leading to the issues mentioned above. It also raises the question of which frames truly need buffs to their nukes, and how one would go about buffing them without having them simply trivialize more content or become unhealthy to have around in a team, as is a risk with radial nuke frames like Ember or Equinox.

48 minutes ago, Elementalos said:

Regardless of what sort of solution is optimal though, I think it's clear that there's a problem with how flat damage powers work in a game that relies on endlessly scaling up enemy HP and damage as a primary difficulty curve. They end up overbearing early on and irrelevant later, especially when other powers like hard CC and armor strip don't lose functionality over time.

This I completely agree with, which is why I personally believe Warframe needs a different way of scaling its challenge. Having enemies eventually become stronger than the player utterly defeats the entire fantasy of warframes in the first place, which are meant to be the absolute most powerful entities in the Origin System, bar a small handful of plot-related exceptions. Not only that, but such a system increases difficulty without changing the game's challenge: the player gets punished harder, often without even making a mistake in the first place, and becomes less effective at doing what they're supposed to do, but this dysfunctionality does not really push players to play better, outside of maybe catching more players who pick a squishy frame and fail to stay mobile. It doesn't present players with new gameplay, and in fact it tends to kill a lot of strategies, simply because enemies have too many stats for those strats to remain effective. It does little except make the game more fragmented, less balanced, and more difficult to balance as well, as players who have progressed to "endgame" content feel left with very little in the game that can actually challenge them. As such, challenges need to come meaningful additions or modifications to gameplay, such as having to deal with new enemy types, or having to operate under tighter mission conditions. In turn, players themselves shouldn't have their progression boil down to pure increases in power, because that kind of curve has a definite start and end point, takes little time to accomplish relative to the time one spends playing Warframe, and causes vast portions of the game to become far less interesting to engage with.

[DiabolusUrsus]

4 hours ago, Elementalos said:

Teridax68 explains what I was going for really well a post up. The trouble is that for warframe powers, those mods don't really exist. My Soma had a raw damage mod, multiplied by a crit chance mod, further multiplied by a crit damage mod, further enhanced by status procs on crits and with some elemental damage and effects to tear up armor thrown on top for good measure.

By comparison if I just want one of my Warframe's innate damage skills to hit harder I can... grab some ability strength mods and maybe an augment depending on the ability in question. The options are much more limited and don't compound on each other to nearly the same effect. 

The result is that warframe powers scale poorly relative to the content they're in. Powers end up overbearing in low level content and then without some built in utility or scaling effect (I can see why I need to be more careful with how I use that word) anything with a flat number attached to it quickly falls off into irrelevance, long before the content itself actually becomes too hard to manage.

I understand a bit better now.

In that case, I think powers are actually the more well-adjusted of the pair and that we should be trying to get weapons to more closely match powers instead of vice-versa.

I think you've got a great point with regards to the disparity in damage power effectiveness at opposite ends of the leveling scale, to which I have two possible solutions:

1. Balance powers to perform well against high level enemies, and regulate them solely through energy economy. Lower-level content is already more relaxed in terms of spawn weights, and overkill damage is effectively irrelevant.
2. Implement fully scaling effects like percentage damage and defense-ignorning properties, and simply apply the same sorts de-scaling effects used for CC above maximum level as I proposed earlier.

Quote

To try to illustrate what I mean: I remember when I first got back into Warframe I thought Frost was primarily a damage dealer because while progressing through the first chunk of the story his 2 could clear a whole hallway pretty much by itself, but even trying to keep my ability damage mod upgraded with each new planet in the mid and later sections of storyline it became increasingly less effective until eventually it just became a slow I used to help keep enemies pinned down while I blew them up with my increasingly powerful and increasingly modded guns. 

Not to say that I want Frost to do killer damage all game long per se, but just trying to emphasize that the damage on frame powers is really heavily frontloaded while the damage on guns is much more dependent on continuously upgrading your mods and therefore continue to improve for much longer and to a much higher ceiling.

I think this should be pretty much covered by what I said earlier, but if I'm still missing something please let me know.

Quote

I agree with this idea at least, but DE doesn't seem to want to do that anymore judging by the fact that I still have Serration on all my rifles. I also think it's a significantly larger undertaking to try to rescale everything else in the game to fit a more linear power curve than it would be just to make raw damage powers have better upgrade options and having better upgrade options would make it easier to make the powers function more consistently across different tiers of content.

Fair enough, but DE regularly pursuses massive undertakinga of their own volition, and I think this degree of game balance is something we should convince them to pursue whether they "want" to or not.

I am, however, alarmed at how far off-base they tend to be when it comes to proposing systemic balance changes (e.g., Rivens utterly failing their 'official' purpose and Damage 2.5 being almost wholly detrimental without properly reining in Slash).

Quote

Regardless of what sort of solution is optimal though, I think it's clear that there's a problem with how flat damage powers work in a game that relies on endlessly scaling up enemy HP and damage as a primary difficulty curve. They end up overbearing early on and irrelevant later, especially when other powers like hard CC and armor strip don't lose functionality over time.

This is precisely the argument that had DE try scaling up damage powers in the first place, and I still contend that it was the wrong approach.

The damage powers might need some adjustment to ensure they "fit" within the boundaries of the progression scale, but they are still representative of a finite progression.

If enemy scaling is to be kept as a mechanic, it is important to cut out any and all infinitely scaling effects from player arsenals.

[Mach25]

Man, if there was a collaboration between Diabolus and Teridax in a company named, say Meridian Inc.. the game market would be broken. Game companies would be writing, "Meridian Inc. OP, feds plz nerf!"

 

[Xepthrichros]

On 2018-11-26 at 1:40 AM, Marakai said:

In my opinion it's not a matter of playstyle but a balance- if one frame can trivialize whole map with one button while other frames have to run around, jump, shoot, slide, use their "non-map-AOE" abilities, actually managing their abilities durations, dodging enemies, avoiding huge group of enemies, synergizing their abilities for some combos, setting up etc- while frame like Saryns tand in middle and "1....4....... 1........4 ...... 1.......4".

It's not playstyle- it's balance issue, when one frames makes other framers not do anything cause it can just delete maps like with snap of fingers. Warframe is (at least in core conception) a game when you have to use your full arsenal- movement, primary, secondary, elements, abilities, team-work.

If one frame all have to do is sit and press 1 and 4 button - it's a serious balance issue for me.
 

Again - my opinion. You are free to disagree of course.

Thus I disagree. You call it balance.

To me, what you want is an elimination of one playstyle or one type of player.

Currently, there's a fast nuke way to play, and slow shoot and slash way to play.

Some people opt to fast nuke because they want a fast, assured, victory for themselves, and for the team. And it's not about "most kills". Almost never have I seen anyone who killed more than me say "haha noob why you kill so little". And if that player actually does start boasting in chat of his kills, he ... needs help. 
Some people opt to slow shoot cos its more interactive. I sometimes bring out Harrow for this. And I also find Garuda fun even though I have faster options... which leads me to my 3rd category of people. 

Some people do both. Pretty sure many actually lie in this area. They bring the best tool for the task at hand. When they are in a hurry to get ducat cos baro is leaving and they were busy the whole weekend with other things, they go fast, nuke. Or they wanna quickly grind XP for their 5-Forma item or Focus farm in Sanctuary Onslaught - they bring frames that enable that. Or maybe that Invasion progress is down to the last 1% and they just logged in, and they want to rush to do 3 missions to qualify for Battle Pay. And then when they want to challenge themselves, they opt for Arbitration, Eidolon Battles, etc. Or they bring a frame or weapons that can't kill things in a a 30-meter radius, or whose stats clearly show suboptimal performance (less than 30% base status/crit, slow reload, etc.). And when its farming bosses, it shouldn't upset you if someone one-shots the boss with their Rubico Prime and Tigris Prime.... They probably are running this boss fight for the 20th time and have 10 systems, 9 neuroptics and 0 chassis for that warframe. Obviously, at some point, they will snap. 

Thing is, in Public, everyone has a different objective, randomly sorted together by RNG and Ping. A slow-preference player should not begrudge a fast-preference player if they bump into each other. Unless that fast-preference player decides to be a ***** and when he stands at extraction, he starts spouting crap like "faster" "hurry up" etc. for no good reason other than ego (though some apparently have reasons like they have to meet a person for a trade or real life has called on them). But, as someone who pubs 99% of the time, I have almost never seen anyone say "hurry up" to me, even when I get lost on that Uranus tileset, or detour a bit for Argon on Orokin tilesets. Anyway, simply, if you chose "Public", be ready for fast and slow regardless of personal  preference. If you REALLY want to play a certain way, try recruiting chat or solo.

 

(as an aside, if they nerf Saryn and Equinox, as others have said... fast-style will find other ways. It will be slower, but still the next-fastest thing E.g. Rhino, Nezha, Frost, Volt, Mag, Ember... all still very effective to wipe out casual content with their abilities. And if everything fast is removed, and then more and more people have issue with ESO, then ESO difficulty will be nerfed)

Edited December 15, 2018 by Xepthrichros

[DeMonkey]

19 minutes ago, Xepthrichros said:

To me, what you want is an elimination of one playstyle or one type of player.

You keep ignoring the fact that the fast nuke way eliminates the slow shoot and slash way.

The entire argument is hypocritical.

[(PSN)FriendSharkey]

I've always felt they should treat the mobs like the Proxy Rebellion event and add mid tier OP bosses to the mix to throw off veteran players and those who know how to min/max certain frames...these larger threats were once the pre-nerf Hyena pack and Bursa where they tended to mitigate the power creep till the complaints in the forums rendered them glorified cake walks...Nobody from vets to new players likes being bored in a game when one player is killing everything with spam powers...

Edited December 15, 2018 by (PS4)FriendSharkey

[SqualZell]

6 hours ago, DeMonkey said:

You keep ignoring the fact that the fast nuke way eliminates the slow shoot and slash way.

The entire argument is hypocritical.

not really,

fast nuke only eliminates slowshoot and slash in PUGs, slow shoot and slash way still exist in premade groups and solo

kill/nerf fast nukes and they don't exist at all, not even in premade groups or solo. 

[DeMonkey]

1 hour ago, SqualZell said:

not really,

fast nuke only eliminates slowshoot and slash in PUGs, slow shoot and slash way still exist in premade groups and solo

kill/nerf fast nukes and they don't exist at all, not even in premade groups or solo. 

Yes really, as "play premade or solo" isn't a solution, has never been a solution and really should stop being offered as a solution.

If "play premade or solo" were the solution to every problem it's been provided for, no one would ever play public. 

• Don't like people not pulling their weight?
• Don't like people doing everything for you?
• Don't like people being afk?
• Don't like trash talkers?
• Don't like a certain frame?
• Don't like a certain weapon?
• Don't like a certain MR?

Well do I have the solution for you, if you've ever had a gripe with anyone or anything in this game, simply cut yourself off from all further public matchmaking. Why deal with the occasional bother when you can instead spend ages in recruiting chat trying to find like minded individuals willing to run the same missions, and if that doesn't work, simply cut yourself off from the community altogether! /s

Your solution to avoid being limited by another person in-game is to... limit yourself pre-game by wasting time forming a squad for every mission or playing alone? Do you see the irony here?

Yeah, I'm grumpy. I think the "play premade or solo" argument is deplorable personally. And sure, you can argue that you aren't providing a solution, which you aren't, explicitly, but that's the intent of your post, yes? Fast nukes only eliminate other playstyles (every single other playstyle) in public, and you can do 'x' to avoid that. Nerfing them kills them in all modes.

And honestly, so what? Public matchmaking is just as valid a mode as any other. Alternative gamemodes where said nukes may or may not exist doesn't stop them eliminating other playstyles and rendering the posters argument hypocritical.

Edited December 16, 2018 by DeMonkey

[SqualZell]

9 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

Yes really, as "play premade or solo" isn't a solution, has never been a solution and really should stop being offered as a solution.

If "play premade or solo" were the solution to every problem it's been provided for, no one would ever play public. 

• Don't like people not pulling their weight?
• Don't like people doing everything for you?
• Don't like people being afk?
• Don't like trash talkers?
• Don't like a certain frame?
• Don't like a certain weapon?
• Don't like a certain MR?

Well do I have the solution for you, if you've ever had a gripe with anyone or anything in this game, simply cut yourself off from all further public matchmaking. Why deal with the occasional bother when you can instead spend ages in recruiting chat trying to find like like minded individuals willing to run the same missions, and if that doesn't work, simply cut yourself off from the community altogether! /s

Your solution to avoid being limited by another person in-game is to... limit yourself pre-game by wasting time forming a squad for every mission or playing alone? Do you see the irony here?

Yeah, I'm grumpy. I think the "play premade or solo" argument is deplorable personally. And sure, you can argue that you aren't providing a solution, which you aren't, explicitly, but that's the intent of your post, yes? Fast nukes only eliminate other playstyles (every single other playstyle) in public, and you can do 'x' to avoid that. Nerfing them kills them in all modes.

And honestly, so what? Public matchmaking is just as valid a mode as any other. Alternative gamemodes where said nukes may or may not exist doesn't stop them eliminating other playstyles and rendering the posters argument hypocritical.

So kill my playstyle because yours is better, got it.

[Xepthrichros]

7 hours ago, DeMonkey said:

You keep ignoring the fact that the fast nuke way eliminates the slow shoot and slash way.

The entire argument is hypocritical.

You keep ignoring that if you remove fast nuke completely, you also eliminate a gameplay totally. You are also hypocritical. Yours is COMPLETE removal, that is from a programming perspective, where you do not even give anybody the option to use it at all.

Whereas my view is simply, if you play public and are unlucky, your slow hack and slash is hindered by a fast nuker. If you are lucky, you land in a team of Valkyr, Wukong, Inaros, Volt. Happy slashing then. Just hope Volt didn't actually build for range and max speed and is nuking the whole map with his 4 - which trivializes most level 1-30 content even now. Or you can run into my rhino, who probably will break stereotypes of rhino and be nuking the whole map with stomp.

Edited December 16, 2018 by Xepthrichros

[DeMonkey]

5 minutes ago, SqualZell said:

So kill my playstyle because yours is better, got it.

Fully invested in being a hypocrite aren't you.

Why is it okay for your playstyle to override that of anothers? Because you think yours is better, yes? That's literally it. You complain about others trying to take away your playstyle whilst completely happy taking their playstyle from them.

It'd be tragic if it wasn't so boringly human.

Just now, Xepthrichros said:

You keep ignoring that if you remove fast nuke completely, you also eliminate a gameplay totally. You are also hypocritical. 

Gotcha, a generic schoolyard "no u" response that makes little sense.

I really hope you can do better than that.

[Xepthrichros]

2 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

Fully invested in being a hypocrite aren't you.

Why is it okay for your playstyle to override that of anothers? Because you think yours is better, yes? That's literally it. You complain about others trying to take away your playstyle whilst completely happy taking their playstyle from them.

It'd be tragic if it wasn't so boringly human.

Gotcha, a generic schoolyard "no u" response that makes little sense.

I really hope you can do better than that.

Yeah, I already have. GO read again.