As a new player I am little tired of "dumb" gameplay mechanics like Saryn - press 4 to kill map...

[(XBOX)DisGrl]

3 hours ago, Marakai said:

Ow, I am sorry, you have to stand still and press 3 buttons. My bad.

Saryn and Saryn Prime are both misunderstood for being easy to play, it's really quite the opposite, you actually need to go out and kill enemies to spread the spores. Her abilities allow her to CC extremely well, deleting a map is just part of this game. I have tried to AFK as you said in this post, and it just completely removes a Saryn's utility. Try getting her before you jump to such conclusions, you will see she takes a lot more effort than you think. These people can nuke maps using Corrupted Mods where if you did not know always come with a catch, a really heavy catch; like much less efficiency, strength, duration, and other stuff like that. People build their Saryns to nuke. A normal Saryn that is built towards normal gameplay will just be another frame.

Try getting her first; try her, she is NOT op, she is only op when you build her to be, just like MANY other frames that can nuke.

Excal, Nova, and Volt are great examples.

[Azrael_V]

4 hours ago, Marakai said:

I know vets who play level 200+ enemies may see her different  but as a fairy new player I am really tired of just baby sitting next to Saryns who just press 2 keys and I just see Affinity numbers pop out around map. 99% of Saryns just stand in middle of map and spam one-two abillity. I know they are other AOE nukers- but many of them start to scale bad at around 80+ lvl with their nukes from what I have seen, but Saryn damage is toxic and corrosive so she scales probably best with content making even fun missions/events with high level enemies trivial and boring. Many times me and other 3 players on Onslaught or Survival/Defense just stand and hope we can kill something or use our "non-AOE-map nuke-press-one-button" abilities before Saryn kills whole map using so much skill as pressing 2 buttons.

I know Saryn is not alone, Equinox can do something simillar, Octavia can afk, Ember was a problem with it but I heard she was nerfed long time ago.

Anyway I don't understand why DE design those frames with such brainless gameplay. It's not only not fun to play with such frames as other less-AOE frames (or non-meta frames general), it makes mission trivial, boring and not challanging. Not to mention it's a very selfish design since it does nothing for team apart from taking away fun.

Veterans might don't care, I understand- different perspective. But from new player point of few (+ my friends who also started WG with me) it's just not fun to play with.

This is just my opinion as new player.

[SaidTheRogue]

this again? saryn only wipes the map with one keypress when youre doing those super badass lv28 enemies in hydron after you had to forma your whip yet again.

get up to wave 14 in ESO then see how the dmg rolls =]

[(PSN)chris1pat8twins]

I like how my rhino with 181% roar is ignored when a killframe like Saryn, whose damage is extremely buffed by my rhino, is taking the kills. Same with banshee, ember, equinox, even limbo. Yes even limbo who does very little damage was able to oneshot rank 30+ enemies with cataclysm after I buffed him. But everybody focused on the killframes. I linked my maxed power strength Nidus to a buddy’s rhino which increased everybody else’s damage by 400% and people said rhino is OP and should be nerfed. And during a fissure both frames were fissured and the roaring damage buff was 1,213% and people accused him of hacking. And I’ve never encountered another Nidus like mine. 

It just comes to show a lot of people are very ignorant about the game and overestimate and underestimate some warframes. While some say they’re weak, otherwise say they’re OP. 🤦🏻‍♂️ 

People just need to stop. 

[(PSN)haphazardlynamed]

6 hours ago, SaidTheRogue said:

this again? saryn only wipes the map with one keypress when youre doing those super badass lv28 enemies in hydron after you had to forma your whip yet again.

get up to wave 14 in ESO then see how the dmg rolls =]

Careful, the sarcasm will probably go over their heads.

[(XBOX)Knight Raime]

13 hours ago, Marakai said:

I know vets who play level 200+ enemies may see her different  but as a fairy new player I am really tired of just baby sitting next to Saryns who just press 2 keys and I just see Affinity numbers pop out around map. 99% of Saryns just stand in middle of map and spam one-two abillity. I know they are other AOE nukers- but many of them start to scale bad at around 80+ lvl with their nukes from what I have seen, but Saryn damage is toxic and corrosive so she scales probably best with content making even fun missions/events with high level enemies trivial and boring. Many times me and other 3 players on Onslaught or Survival/Defense just stand and hope we can kill something or use our "non-AOE-map nuke-press-one-button" abilities before Saryn kills whole map using so much skill as pressing 2 buttons. 

I know Saryn is not alone, Equinox can do something simillar, Octavia can afk, Ember was a problem with it but I heard she was nerfed long time ago.

Anyway I don't understand why DE design those frames with such brainless gameplay. It's not only not fun to play with such frames as other less-AOE frames (or non-meta frames general), it makes mission trivial, boring and not challanging. Not to mention it's a very selfish design since it does nothing for team apart from taking away fun.

Veterans might don't care, I understand- different perspective. But from new player point of few (+ my friends who also started WG with me) it's just not fun to play with.

This is just my opinion as new player.

 

Saryn is not the most efficient frame to use on survival or defense.  Both are wave based and she needs constant enemy spawns to keep her spores from burning themselves out.  If she's nuking in these missions for you any other nuke frame could do just as good if not better (in terms of efficiency.)  That or you're playing in lower end content where any damage frame can nuke semi well.  Saryn is better off ignoring her 4 for the most part unless she needs the stun to get out of a tight situation.  She is better off spreading her spores still with weapons and toxic lash.  If she's not out doing that her spores will eventually kill themselves off.

 

Onslaught is the one place she actually shines efficiently.  And she's doing you a favor for existing in there.  If you don't like the nuke style go form your own group.  Warframe is a mindless grind game that fulfills a power fantasy.  efficiency is the name of the game.  It's cool if you don't care for that.  But that's what private groups are for.  Joining into a pub means you'll take whoever you can get.

Also it's not that vets don't care.  It's that we've been around the block before.  We have frames we play for fun.  Things we do for a challenge.  and loadouts we choose for grinding.  You'll have to learn to accept these truths if you want to enjoy your time in this beautiful game.

[WSPY]

Honestly.... Actually....

Lots of vets or players who has spent enough time in Warframe will opt for Nuker like Saryn because it's less time consuming and because they are SICK OF GRINDING OVER AND OVER AND OVER THE SAME MAP OR STUFFS... 

Not to mentioned those who have just came back from a tired day of work, want to play a few rounds of grindy Warframe. 

I definitely understands your situation, sometimes I hate that too when I cannot find an enemy to kill... I will then sit down(emotes) besides the nuker and type message in squad to say "Thank you, but do you mind to reduce your usage of your nukes?" Many times it worked.. If not i'll just decide whether i should leave or leech..

Tbh, you will somehow like Nuker one day... Maybe when you are tired or you just want a quick grind before Valentine's Day dinner...

*The best solution is probably limiting public matchmaking where MR25 players only will matched with MR10 and above players unless invited.. 

Edited November 26, 2018 by WSPY

[(PSN)UltraKardas]

14 hours ago, DSkycroft said:

It isn't efficiency,it is overpoweredness. NO frame should be able to wipe an entire map.

Yea, wiping out entire map of level 1-30 enemies is so op. Guess you kinda missed the part where Saryn's ultimate got nerfed to do half damage without spores. 150 damage for 7 seconds, is So op.... (sarcasm)
 

 

14 hours ago, Marakai said:

This is just my opinion as new player.

Saryn is the most used frame of veterans, cause it makes the grind faster. After 2100+ hours, you are allowed to grind however fast you like. 

[(PSN)Ozymandias-13-]

I think DE should start locking stats on more abilities rather than changing them as much. 

If absurd range can be a problem on abilities like Miasma, Soundquake, WoF, etc. then cap the range (in the same way they do efficiency) for that specific ability or lock it entirely so that it does not benefit from positive or negative range. Utilizing that kind of mechanic for various stats on abilities across the board could solve some of the power creep that has been running rampant over the years. Doing 8 billion damage won't be so much of an issue if it only affects enemies within a 2 foot radius when cast.

Edited November 26, 2018 by (PS4)Riko_113

[(PSN)UltraKardas]

5 hours ago, (PS4)Riko_113 said:

I think DE should start locking stats on more abilities rather than changing them as much. 

If absurd range can be a problem on abilities like Miasma, Soundquake, WoF, etc. then cap the range (in the same way they do efficiency) for that specific ability or lock it entirely so that it does not benefit from positive or negative range. Utilizing that kind of mechanic for various stats on abilities across the board could solve some of the power creep that has been running rampant over the years. Doing 8 billion damage won't be so much of an issue if it only affects enemies within a 2 foot radius when cast.

Two problems with that. What is the level you are balancing these changes around? WoF was only broken against low level enemies. Then in other scenarios, completely useless. Fortuna and the Plains for Example... WoF and Miasma have very little impact. Are you insisting that neutering a warframe for low level missions is fair? Having a level one enemy ruin a frame? Efficiency needs to be capped to stop frames from getting 90% Efficiency, and spamming ultimates for 10 energy a pop. With Zenurik energy passive, or something like rage, you could spam powers and never worry about using energy. (Certain frames like Nyx could get 205% efficiency if it wasn't capped. Getting energy with every cast? I'm going to put on quick thinking.... (Nyx's arcane helmet, + streamline + fleeting expertise) 

Limiting other stats, has no purpose, when the point of the game is to get your warframe stronger. Power Creep isn't a problem in Warframe, it's one of the selling points. Every so often something will come out that is better, and badder then what came before it. It's just that people don't want their old frames to be completely outclassed. (Which is why warframe reworks and balance changes are nice.)

Ever heard of Prime Weapons and Warframes? Umbra Excalibur, and Umbra mods? Prime Mods? Vandal and Wraith weapons? Power Creep is one of the biggest drives of an MMO 

You really have no idea how much of a terrible idea this is. 
 

[Buttaface]

Didn't read whole thread. Am a vet who agrees totally with OP, and believe that AOE cheeze is a main reason people play WF for a bit then move on from boredom.

OP, it's not just Saryn, but lots of easy AOE spam powers and frames that are in the game to allow bad/controller/lazy players to feel good as opposed to learning to be truly good. Such is life in ANY game that is both PC and console.

To make the post positive, they need more game modes and tiles at all levels of play that limit power usage severely. This can be done via range, target, dmg, etc. caps that BETTER games than WF all tend to have. Then they need to split off new/low players from vets and outright prohibit aoe cheeze altogether in certain lower planets. Once someone has left one of the newb planets, they can't get back unless they are solo or in a full invited team with no chance of getting a pug in the team or somesuch limits. When I started WF back in 2015, the range and power of AOE cheeze was not nearly as bad as today... if it were, I'd have left the game near instantly the first time I entered a match with a R Quake noobanshee.

Always funny to see the AOE cheeze WK crowd rushing to defend it. Why not just watch TV? Much more immersive. Why play a game at all if the intent it not to actually play a game? Do you think your favorite unbalanced AOE cheeze makes you "good" at WF? it doesn't.

Edited November 27, 2018 by Buttaface

[XaoGarrent]

On 2018-11-25 at 12:13 PM, Marakai said:

I know Saryn is not alone, Equinox can do something simillar, Octavia can afk, Ember was a problem with it but I heard she was nerfed long time ago.

It wasn't very long ago, actually. This really does demonstrate just how inexperienced you are.

If you knew the game, you'd know you're still at the point where Ember stomps everything into the ground. Nothing has changed from your perspective, but you have no clue that's the case because you're literally too new to know how the Ember nerf went down. The Ember nerfs did the exact opposite of what they intended. She's still a starchart stomper, just now it's much, much harder to make her work into higher levels. Well, there is one way to make her "useful," but you would cry about that too since it basically involves having a Mesa or the like AFK near the Ember.

This is not the fate Saryn should suffer, and if she does people like you will just go on to whinge about something else because you don't know how the game works. I know how you lot are, I've seen you do your thing in dozens of games, I've even seen your kind completely kill a few of them. Because you're never happy. Ever. There will always be something else, because you're operating on relativist logic.

This is a line of logic that just goes around in circles over and over, and misses the point completely. They already butchered Ember, and here you are, fresh off the boat even, asking for more blood. Not only that, but you're asking them to butcher what is effectively intended as an endgame frame (Basic Saryn is locked behind a boss at the very end of the starchart for a reason) because her 4 can flatten low level enemies. Well guess what, Oberon, yes Oberon, does the same thing, but for cheaper and with even less button presses. You ever seen a max range Oberon on sub level 30 corpus missions? Well, nerf Saryn and maybe you will. And you'll reeeeeee about that too. 

Any level 30 forma'd caster-y frame is going to do this, even ones that aren't designed for high end damage. Volt can do what Saryn does well up to and even a bit past Hydron, except with one button. What you're doing is like complaining a level 100 character in an MMO can stomp level 20 enemies, it's frankly nonsensical. It's unfortunate that DE put things that fully kitted out vets want in areas with new players. It's also a shame that only just recently have they been adding end game content for people to use their maxed out builds in. But that's just the reality of the situation.

[(PSN)UltraKardas]

2 hours ago, Buttaface said:

Then they need to split off new/low players from vets and outright prohibit aoe cheeze altogether in certain lower planets. Once someone has left one of the newb planets, they can't get back unless they are solo or in a full invited team with no chance of getting a pug in the team or somesuch limits. When I started WF back in 2015, the range and power of AOE cheeze was not nearly as bad as today... if it were, I'd have left the game near instantly the first time I entered a match with a R Quake noobanshee.

Always funny to see the AOE cheeze WK crowd rushing to defend it. Why not just watch TV? Much more immersive. Why play a game at all if the intent it not to actually play a game? Do you think your favorite unbalanced AOE cheeze makes you "good" at WF? it doesn't.

There's so much wrong with what you just said. #1 Draco was a thing. Where an Excalibur nuked the entire map, so everyone got standing quickly. Then old Volt could clear entire missions with his first iteration of his ultimate. There was also EGate where a banshee would endlessly kill low level missions so people go a tremendous amount of credits, Fusion cores, and mods. There was AoE back then. You just missed it. The only thing that should be done, is add the matchmaking option to player with people around your level. Many newbs depend on vets to help them through certain missions. I've seen spy missions that newbs just sit at the door and defend it while I hack everything for them. *Yawn* Won't effect me, but will effect the newbs still trying to learn the ropes. I have brought many people into Warframe, and without somebody to guide them, they wouldn't have given it a second chance. (They picked it up once, before.) 

#2 I don't really see anybody in here saying "I can AoE cheese, look at me. I'm so good." No. Nobody is saying that. Take your straw man argument somewhere else. AoE has its place in the game, and it's not going anywhere. This game is a horde shooter just fyi. The point of the game is to kill large number of enemies... If not Saryn, then Mesa/Equinox/Banshee/Volt/Excalibur/Mag/Octavia/Any frame with a 20 meter AoE ultimate. If not them, then Chroma/Mirage/Banshee with an amprex/simuloid/atomos. I went into an arbitration as Saryn. Went to about wave 25 with my team, before something hit me and I was obliterated. The rest of the people wanted to try to get to 30, to see if they could get that last reward. One was a Rhino, the other was a frost I believe. They had no issue surviving, yet they couldn't kill fast enough to save the defense target. Saryn is balanced by being a squishy caster. Her AoE is a quality of life change to people who want to do a low level mission or quickly farm mats, (Like Polymer bundles that most people burn through later in late game. Polymer Bundles that also only come from low level planets... The highest being level 23 on Uranus.) I really look forward to being competely locked out of farming Polymer Bundles, by your terrible, atrocious idea. Get a clue.

Come up with a better argument. (Also, Tv has no interaction other then watching.... Saryn you have to press spores, spread spores, then Miasma....  Even if you are half aft in ESO, you still have to move to the next room. A logical fallacy on your part.

[(XBOX)DisGrl]

7 hours ago, XaoGarrent said:

It wasn't very long ago, actually. This really does demonstrate just how inexperienced you are.

If you knew the game, you'd know you're still at the point where Ember stomps everything into the ground. Nothing has changed from your perspective, but you have no clue that's the case because you're literally too new to know how the Ember nerf went down. The Ember nerfs did the exact opposite of what they intended. She's still a starchart stomper, just now it's much, much harder to make her work into higher levels. Well, there is one way to make her "useful," but you would cry about that too since it basically involves having a Mesa or the like AFK near the Ember.

This is not the fate Saryn should suffer, and if she does people like you will just go on to whinge about something else because you don't know how the game works. I know how you lot are, I've seen you do your thing in dozens of games, I've even seen your kind completely kill a few of them. Because you're never happy. Ever. There will always be something else, because you're operating on relativist logic.

This is a line of logic that just goes around in circles over and over, and misses the point completely. They already butchered Ember, and here you are, fresh off the boat even, asking for more blood. Not only that, but you're asking them to butcher what is effectively intended as an endgame frame (Basic Saryn is locked behind a boss at the very end of the starchart for a reason) because her 4 can flatten low level enemies. Well guess what, Oberon, yes Oberon, does the same thing, but for cheaper and with even less button presses. You ever seen a max range Oberon on sub level 30 corpus missions? Well, nerf Saryn and maybe you will. And you'll reeeeeee about that too. 

Any level 30 forma'd caster-y frame is going to do this, even ones that aren't designed for high end damage. Volt can do what Saryn does well up to and even a bit past Hydron, except with one button. What you're doing is like complaining a level 100 character in an MMO can stomp level 20 enemies, it's frankly nonsensical. It's unfortunate that DE put things that fully kitted out vets want in areas with new players. It's also a shame that only just recently have they been adding end game content for people to use their maxed out builds in. But that's just the reality of the situation.

You put it in the perfect words.

[SqualZell]

As a Saryn main, those who think she is OP, that may be right...

HOWEVER

1- it requires expensive mods to get her to that OP levels
2- it requires skill to use, it's not a set an forget or a press 4 to win 
3- it requires sacrifices to get her to do heavy damage at large ranges
4- it requires maintenance to keep up the damage
5- it requires action to spread the spores properly
6- it requires balance to properly spread the spores

Things you may not know.
spores don't spread if the spores damage tick killed the enemy. 
spread the spores too soon and you just reach your little group of 3-4 enemies
spread the spores too late and risk being overrun
Saryn's gradually changes from Damage to Support role the higher levels you go. 

Things you can do as a noob with a Saryn in your party
1- help spread the spores by killing the enemies before the spores do. 
2- give energy to Saryn if possible... remember the sacrifices we need to make to get crazy range and damage? my Efficiency is at 60%
3- she is not tanky either make sure your Saryn doesn't get over-run... my combined health and shields are 1075

Basically, this is a co-op game, it's not about what you can do, it's about what the team can do. 

when you start doing endgame stuff, you are going to want to play or have a nuker frame like Saryn in your party. 

but in the meantime, if you dislike being carried easy mode while you grind your relics make your own groups in the recruitment channel

[(PSN)deathwolfclaw666]

On 2018-11-25 at 5:28 PM, (XB1)Cubic Clem said:

Oh God.. this should be merged with the fed up thread.. ^^

Yep, toss it on the trash heap where it belongs.

[(XBOX)GameNerd300]

Man, when I was a new player I loved those experienced players who had frames that nuked entire rooms. Most of the time they saved my life when I got to a point where my puny amount of N00b damage tickled higher level enemies. If you don't like the possiblity of running into those nuker frames, organize your own team or just play solo. You're wasting your time complaining here. (Especially when there's already a megathread chock full a complaints about Saryn) Leave Lady Saryn alone.

[Chaemyerelis]

The mods are what cause unbalanced abilities.

[Threa]

I LOVE Saryn in her current form. She’s an example of a well-designed Warframe. She’s an alternative to pure gunplay and I find that incredibly fun. Having an option to use her playstyle is what makes this game special. If every Warframe was designed under your parameters, the game would turn into D2 or literally every other generic FPS out there. 

If you ever leave the star chart you’ll realize what I and the rest of the other players in this thread are trying to tell you: nuke frames lose their ability to nuke at higher level content. And before you say, “Well what about lower level content?” What about it? You’ll only do those missions randomly (and briefly) for alerts or to farm for materials.

You’re complaining about one playstyle and instead of doing the the mature thing by getting over it, playing solo, or building your own squad, you’re advocating for the removal of a type of playstyle that many players enjoy just because *you* don’t like it. 

[Buttaface]

13 hours ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

There's so much wrong with what you just said. #1 Draco was a thing. Where an Excalibur nuked the entire map, so everyone got standing quickly. Then old Volt could clear entire missions with his first iteration of his ultimate. There was also EGate where a banshee would endlessly kill low level missions so people go a tremendous amount of credits, Fusion cores, and mods. There was AoE back then. You just missed it. The only thing that should be done, is add the matchmaking option to player with people around your level. Many newbs depend on vets to help them through certain missions. I've seen spy missions that newbs just sit at the door and defend it while I hack everything for them. *Yawn* Won't effect me, but will effect the newbs still trying to learn the ropes. I have brought many people into Warframe, and without somebody to guide them, they wouldn't have given it a second chance. (They picked it up once, before.) 

#2 I don't really see anybody in here saying "I can AoE cheese, look at me. I'm so good." No. Nobody is saying that. Take your straw man argument somewhere else. AoE has its place in the game, and it's not going anywhere. This game is a horde shooter just fyi. The point of the game is to kill large number of enemies... If not Saryn, then Mesa/Equinox/Banshee/Volt/Excalibur/Mag/Octavia/Any frame with a 20 meter AoE ultimate. If not them, then Chroma/Mirage/Banshee with an amprex/simuloid/atomos. I went into an arbitration as Saryn. Went to about wave 25 with my team, before something hit me and I was obliterated. The rest of the people wanted to try to get to 30, to see if they could get that last reward. One was a Rhino, the other was a frost I believe. They had no issue surviving, yet they couldn't kill fast enough to save the defense target. Saryn is balanced by being a squishy caster. Her AoE is a quality of life change to people who want to do a low level mission or quickly farm mats, (Like Polymer bundles that most people burn through later in late game. Polymer Bundles that also only come from low level planets... The highest being level 23 on Uranus.) I really look forward to being competely locked out of farming Polymer Bundles, by your terrible, atrocious idea. Get a clue.

Come up with a better argument. (Also, Tv has no interaction other then watching.... Saryn you have to press spores, spread spores, then Miasma....  Even if you are half aft in ESO, you still have to move to the next room. A logical fallacy on your part.

Wasn't talking about leveling or farming tiles like Hydron and Draco, so there goes straw man the first. Didn't "miss" anything three years ago, I used Volt and old Ash on Draco all the time, no problemo, not the issue OP is describing. Do you really not know the difference between the relatively few designated popular farming tiles and the rest? or are you just being obtuse? Mostly I'm talking about general mission running where tryhards bring max range aoe for "muhkillz" on things that would have died near instantly to weapons anyway. Newer players need to get a consistent feeling of participation even if they don't kill much. Insecure tryhards who bring max range Equinox (or X spam frame power) to level 8 missions spoil this outright and are far too common in status quo WF.

The difference between then and now, though, is lots of range, power str, energy management, duration etc. power creep that flat out didn't exist then. You had to be at least a little attentive to do aoe map clear, now not so much.

Spy mission talk is anecdotal and irrelevant to OP's (and my) gripes.

Oh, yeah, tons of tryhards do most certainly "give up" on learning actual moving and tactical play to get legitimately skilled at the game in favor of OP AOE button mashing and do regularly gloat about their damage % from this type of nonplay. See it all the time. No idea what game you are playing.

No, the point of this game, as in all shooter type games, is to have fun. In some game modes with organized teams that means AOE spam, but far more frequent are tryhards ruining lower level play in PUGs and driving newer players OUT of WF due to boredom and annoyance.

Saryn is one of the top ten tank frames in the game. If "squishy" in the least, it isn't built correctly, especially with some of the newer mods. Typical Saryn gameplay is about as interactive as watching someone make a ham sandwich, especially obnoxious when tryhards bring it in low level stuff and spam 4, leaving loot all over the map and causing lots of mob bugging on certain enemy mixes in later waves. Saryn should not be a top tier tank, AOE frame and melee frame in one package, yet it is. OP as a matter of fact and not opinion... or are all the complaints just whining? I think not.

BTW, Protip, Fortuna is the new polymer bundle farm. You're welcome, farmed toroids this past weekend and will never need polymer again, can spam pizzas til the cows come home. Wasn't talking about higher level starchart like Uranus, but the starter planets, Earth, Mercury, Venus for example. Those, or at least 1-2 planets, need to be newb areas IMO with all AOE spam turned off so that new players learn to play the game better than they do now.

The skill level of the player base in WF has never been worse and that's due to all the power creep of AOE available too early. In better games, learning entails things like aiming, environmental awareness, teamplay, tactical considerations, weapon building. WF throws all that out the window once someone can either farm or buy one of the AOE spam frames... player competence comes to a full stop at that moment for way too many players. Others get bored of the ease.

WF has always been a very easy game. Good, that's not what I'm complaining about. Mostly it's mixing higher and lower level players on lower planets that ends up boring and no fun for anyone. Even the tryhards that do it aren't really having fun. 

Edited November 27, 2018 by Buttaface

[Buttaface]

12 minutes ago, moostar95 said:

If you admitted that the game is easy. Why complain about aoe frames. Playing solo after a while. Its nice to have my gear level up with ease in eso online. Also there are people that like saryn, mesa, and my favorite equinox, who does MORE THEN NUKING. i use her night side for the most part in public play if i go healer. Relax mate, its only a game.

Sorry, but you didn't address the points in my post, literally none of them. Thanks for the block quote though, maybe get more attention to this obvious flaw in WF compared to other games. All games are easy after awhile. The best among them manage to not be completely boring at the same time. WF is not there.

And also spare the "relax" stuff, it's unnecessary, inaccurate and needlessly condescending.

Edited November 27, 2018 by Buttaface

[(PSN)UltraKardas]

4 hours ago, Buttaface said:

Wasn't talking about leveling or farming tiles like Hydron and Draco, so there goes straw man the first.

Nope. You just contradicting yourself. (You also don't know what a Straw Man is) You said that players need to be locked out of planets. Ceres is a planet from 12-25, which is a low level planet. Excalibur, and many frames like him were extremely common for being able to nuke the whole map. Draco was famous for it, and I'm pointing out that dozens of other frames are capable of trivializing low game content; Like Excalibur in Draco, or Mesa, or Equinox, the list goes on. This means, that if Saryn gets nerfed into Ember levels of useless, that your solution doesn't fix any thing. You reduces the options people have in the game, and that does nothing to solve the problem or make the game fun. If Saryn can't fit that role any more, people will pick one of the dozen others that can be modded for the same roll. Any frame with a 20 meter ultimate would suffice. 
 

20 hours ago, Buttaface said:

Once someone has left one of the newb planets, they can't get back unless they are solo or in a full invited team with no chance of getting a pug in the team or somesuch limits.

This is your exact quote. Forcing people to solo certain missions types, like interception (specifically the aforementioned Draco) is not fun. You either force that Solo player into nuking exclusively just so they can stop other enemies around the map from capturing points, or going into a full CC frame, that can no longer farm mats, or mods as efficiently from the high enemy spawn counts. This is why your proposition, is a terrible horrendous idea. By Segregating the player base, you encourage more players to use nuke frames just so that they can farm at a decent rate. This goes against the very idea of Public Matchmaking. (Shared, universal matchmaking where anyone can be matched up with anyone.) You can advocate the option of more matchmaking options, however this is the limit of your suggestion. 
 

4 hours ago, Buttaface said:

Didn't "miss" anything three years ago, I used Volt and old Ash on Draco all the time, no problemo, not the issue OP is describing. 

Was referring to old volt, who's discharge would daisy chain through the entire map, killing every enemy in the tile set. Ash was also nefarious nuker who people complained about for being functionally like Saryn. So... hypocritical argument is hypocritical. You may not have used Ash in the same fashion, but he was more then capable of dispatching enemies just the same. This very much the issue the OP is describing. I will post it for you.

On 2018-11-25 at 10:13 AM, Marakai said:

I know vets who play level 200+ enemies may see her different  but as a fairy new player I am really tired of just baby sitting next to Saryns who just press 2 keys and I just see Affinity numbers pop out around map. 99% of Saryns just stand in middle of map and spam one-two abillity. 

So let's break down the OP's statement shall we? "I am really tired of just baby sitting next to Saryn's who just press 2 keys and I just see Affinity numbers pop out around the map." This means that they are in a mission, with very little movement. Otherwise they wouldn't just be sitting next to Saryn. No movement, or other objective then killing enemies in mass. This precisely describes Draco which was a farming mission, or Hydron which farmed EXP for weapons. 
 

4 hours ago, Buttaface said:

Do you really not know the difference between the relatively few designated popular farming tiles and the rest?

Nobody complains about Saryn on anything else but the popular farming missions. When was the last time, you complained that a Saryn was nuking away in a deception mission? Or that she kept nuking a hijack mission, while you escort a Formorian Power core? Your argument literally makes no sense, as Saryn is most used as a farming frame. 
 

4 hours ago, Buttaface said:

 Mostly I'm talking about general mission running where tryhards bring max range aoe for "muhkillz" on things that would have died near instantly to weapons anyway. 

The only person who is talking about try hards is you. Which leads me to believe you are this type of person. If enemies die "near instantly" regardless, then newbs who don't want vets in their public matches, can play those missions solo. Returning back to public missions, (where anyone can play together) once the mission is complete. Their weapons should be more then capable, for the task. 
 

5 hours ago, Buttaface said:

The difference between then and now, though, is lots of range, power str, energy management, duration etc. power creep that flat out didn't exist then. You had to be at least a little attentive to do aoe map clear, now not so much.

Nope. Corrupted mods came out around October 2013. Those alone gave people the range and capability to nuke entire maps. After that, you had enough range with Stretch, and OverExtended. See Old Draco videos for details. Frames have certainly gotten more powerful, with mods following suit; but frames with large range have been commonplace. Example, Old Nova who had Molecular Prime based around Range mods. People treasure Arcane Helmets like Loki's just cause the boost in range. (As well as other Arcanes that also made other frames more powerful. Like Saryn's old Arcane helm that made her stronger too). 
 

5 hours ago, Buttaface said:

Spy mission talk is anecdotal and irrelevant to OP's (and my) gripes.

Oh, yeah, tons of tryhards do most certainly "give up" on learning actual moving and tactical play to get legitimately skilled at the game in favor of OP AOE button mashing and do regularly gloat about their damage % from this type of nonplay. See it all the time. No idea what game you are playing.

Spy mission talk disproves your argument, so with no counter point you ignore it. OP's argument doesn't touch upon Spy missions, as you can't sit around for a Spy mission and be baby sitting a Saryn unless they, and you are ignoring the objective. 

Most "Tryhards" do the exact opposite of what you suggest. They get technical at the game, in order to get good. Either during the pursuit of higher end content to complete raids, raid bosses, or any content where Saryn has no effect on the missions' outcome. (Spy missions, Sabotage, etc-) Then switch to Saryn for ease of use. 
Want proof? ~Click here for proof~. You'll notice that frames that can do wider damage, get more use the higher Mr you go. Mag, and Saryn being used pretty infrequently at Hunter rank 11 (Despite Mag being a starter frame). Then both of them jump the higher you go in Mastery Rank. 
 

5 hours ago, Buttaface said:

No, the point of this game, as in all shooter type games, is to have fun. In some game modes with organized teams that means AOE spam, but far more frequent are tryhards ruining lower level play in PUGs and driving newer players OUT of WF due to boredom and annoyance.

Fun is a subjective experience that is not shared by everyone. Some people like collecting every weapon in warframe, and raising in Mastery. Other people enjoy PvP, (Really enjoying my 3.5 KDA with 9,000 kills) I love Warframe, I despise collecting ever weapon as it's a chore to me. I'm only interested in certain weapons. On the flip side, I am in the vast minority of players on Console that enjoys PvP. (That's fine. I love my PvP exclusive Syndana.) 

Warframe is a horde shooter, and looter. The gameplay loop revolves around killing things, so you can craft an item or warframe, then killing more things to make it more powerful by leveling it, getting stronger mods, then using it to kill bigger things to get more loot. That's why there's a very linear path of progression, till you hit Mastery Rank 13, and have access to the strongest weapons and gear. The point of the game is to kill thousands of enemies, and loot. Hence, enormous drop tables, with each individual enemy dropping several different mods, missions dropping a wide variety of loot, and planets having different resources. Most of what you say is grossly incorrect. I would love to see your proof for these claims. As I have been in a large storm clan since Wars around Dark Sectors were a thing. I have noticed a common pattern of mentoring players. All of them get bored, till you give them a taste of power. Simply going Volt Prime with 300% power strength was enough to shatter their boredom. Some players adored Saryn, while other players preferred even stronger scaling, like Nidus. Others swore by Ash, and Covert Lethality. People have different definitions of fun, and your definition is only applicable to you. You are Daft, if you think you have the only true definition of fun.
 

5 hours ago, Buttaface said:

Saryn is one of the top ten tank frames in the game. If "squishy" in the least, it isn't built correctly, especially with some of the newer mods. Typical Saryn gameplay is about as interactive as watching someone make a ham sandwich, especially obnoxious when tryhards bring it in low level stuff and spam 4, leaving loot all over the map and causing lots of mob bugging on certain enemy mixes in later waves. Saryn should not be a top tier tank, AOE frame and melee frame in one package, yet it is. OP as a matter of fact and not opinion... or are all the complaints just whining? I think not.

So this is a clear indication you absolutely have no clue what you are talking about. Tank frames in Warframe are built around high armor, high health and damage reduction defensive abilities. Nidus is the strongest tank frame in the game bar none. 90% damage reduction from parasitic link, with a passive heal on his ultimate. That's even before addressing his passive ability. Chroma, and Inaros are next. Just for the insane armor and health combo that Chroma can reach, as well as Inaros' insane amount of health, as well as doubling his armor, and being invulnerable while healing himself (Not to mention his passive). Valkyr is next. Warcry giving her 80% Damage reduction easily, with Hysteria giving her temporary immortality. Nekros with his shadows of the dead, and Nyx with Assimilation make them incredibly tanky. Honorable mention to Wukong's Defy. That's before adding Rhino with his Iron Skin to the mix. Gara can put other frames to shame, and a good Trinity can be close to unkillable while healing herself and giving two different instances of damage reduction with Link, and Blessing. 

Saryn has high armor for a caster, and get's addition damage reduction for blocking. However, every other frame listed above, can block with their melee weapon, and be almost infinitely more tanky. She isn't anything close to being a "tank". Nezha, does a better job at this then her. You really have no idea what you are talking about in the slightest. 

I only see people complaining about her in the same context they complain about everything. She's the New Mirage and Synoid Sim needs NERF target. People would rather complain, then get good. Considering how inaccurate you are, I have no reason to believe you here, if anywhere.

5 hours ago, Buttaface said:

The skill level of the player base in WF has never been worse and that's due to all the power creep of AOE available too early. In better games, learning entails things like aiming, environmental awareness, teamplay, tactical considerations, weapon building. WF throws all that out the window once someone can either farm or buy one of the AOE spam frames... player competence comes to a full stop at that moment for way too many players. Others get bored of the ease.

Is that so? What do you have to base this off of? Cause just fyi. Warframe was never a game about skill. If that's how you feel, you should go test your "Skill" in the only skill based game mode. PvP.  Environmental Awareness? Teamplay? Nothing in warframe remotely resembles this. Raids were based completely off of overlapping crowd control, and a healer while you navigated the mission's gimmick, or explored the depths of Jordas to hit that nerve. Meanwhile my "team comp" of Solo as Nidus can get further in a survival of most team comps. Shrugging off hits by level 600 enemies, and healing the damage passively, in 6 seconds. 

Hate to break it to you, Tryhard. Warframe has never had skill. Making a strong composition, requires nothing more then googling builds in warframe builder and is nothing unique. Killing level 9,999 enemies doesn't take skill. It takes a smart setup. A single Viral proc will do more damage to that enemy then all the skill in the world could. You sound more and more like those try hards you complain about. 

The answer to this problem? Go fight tougher enemies. Stop fighting low level fodder in the solar system, and fight something worth killing. Arbitration is the most fun I have ever had, and that's cause +300% power strength is amazing. 600% Speed volt, and nothing will ever seem fast to you again. 
 

6 hours ago, Buttaface said:

WF has always been a very easy game. Good, that's not what I'm complaining about. Mostly it's mixing higher and lower level players on lower planets that ends up boring and no fun for anyone. Even the tryhards that do it aren't really having fun. 

Shocker, it's a PvE game. Even then, Warframe acts like an MMO when it comes to power scaling. Low level missions aren't meant to be engaging to anyone but the newbs fresh off the tutorial. The entire solar system is a breeze you can complete with a half modded karak. 

If you really want to solve the problem? Make high level missions, that have rewards that scale to the level of enemies. Giving massive amounts of planet materials, akin to the enemies level. You'll find out that gathering more mats, more quickly, with harder enemies will rapidly become the new farm location. 

 

[Buttaface]

1 hour ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

...
 

1. Clarified my "low level planet" point, what, twice now? You are continuing to ignore that and posture against something I never posted. Guess what that's called? Have also posted that there is LOTS of AOE that needs nerfing, not just Saryn. Ignoring that and continuing on with the "lots of frames can bladebla" is something called a "red herring." Red herring continues in the "solo interception" as I clearly posted that teams could be pure invite only. OR just remove non soloable content from lower level planets.

2. That old Volt could "kill every enemy on the map" is a lie, and more of the same red herring stuff. In addition, farming lower level maps with weapons is easy and slightly more engaging. Semi AFK spam teams are not necessary to gather any amount of any resources in WF.

3. I, and presumably OP, are indeed complaining about Saryn and other AOE spam on non farming tiles... right here in the written record of the thread, so there goes that.

4. Your doubling down on the Spy missions is MORE red herring. Completely irrelevant to the discussion and pure anecdote to boot.

5. You are welcome to your opinion about tryhard players and what they do. The -fact- is that missions that do not require such are crammed full of AOE spamming frames that ruin the experience for lower players seeking to be engaged in a game as opposed to watching a rather boring show while not participating. Your "proof" is just another type of fallacy, a non sequitur.

6. To restate, it is perfectly easy to kill plenty of mobs to farm any content and get any resources using less AOE spammy frames and weapons while being more engaged in the game. If players want to cheese that kind of play, fine. It should be sequestered from early planets... such as Earth, Mercury and Venus (to avoid Uranus variety of red herring).

7. I don't know what I'm talking about? No, that's you. See how easy and empty that is? Please do continue though, it's funny.

8. Being an easier game does not preclude WF from training newer players to play more skillfully than they do, which would be better and more engaging than AOE spam. That the average skill level of players now versus in the past is a sewer is a fact. PvP is just more red herring, not surprised.

9. Arbitration and higher enemy argument? MORE red herring. My complaints about AOE spam are specific to lower level players in earlier maps. I'd LOVE to see it curbed in other missions too, probably won't happen so not realistic feedback, and no, I'm not going to play a single match for more than 40 minutes to get a challenge. Did that in the past, the challenge wasn't there. Were AOE curtailed in a -few- game modes, challenge could begin from the get-go.

10. That the "entire solar system" is a breeze one can complete with a half-modded Karak is yet another lie. Why lie?

 

Edited November 28, 2018 by Buttaface

[SaltyKelong]

so, OP, what should i do once i get my normal Saryn and need to level her?

Should i go to Hydron and afk leech?

[(PSN)UltraKardas]

1 hour ago, Buttaface said:

1. Clarified my "low level planet" point, what, twice now? You are continuing to ignore that and posture against something I never posted. Guess what that's called? Have also posted that there is LOTS of AOE that needs nerfing, not just Saryn. Ignoring that and continuing on with the "lots of frames can bladebla" is something called a "red herring." Red herring continues in the "solo interception" as I clearly posted that teams could be pure invite only. OR just remove non soloable content from lower level planets.8. Being an easier game does not preclude WF from training newer players to play more skillfully than they do, which would be better and more engaging than AOE spam. That the average skill level of players now versus in the past is a sewer is a fact. PvP is just more red herring, not surprised.

#1 No you haven't clarified. You have told me what it isn't. I know that according to you it isn't the following: "Hydron and Draco" I also am taking your logic, and moving it to the next step. You want to separate players, I use logic to see where that would end. Not every player will have a team that they can invite for low level missions, or even have teams that have the desire to run low level missions. This is where I take your logic to the next step, and see where that leads. Solo players would have those two options. Which isn't a red herring, its a logical step forward in logic. You wanted the player base split, this is the path I see it leading towards. Using more nukes, to farm solo, or CC just to get the mission over. 

Secondly, I asked you to show me the proof that Warframe is less skillful then is used to be. Show me evidence. Otherwise you saying the "average player skill" is utterly meaningless. Skill? What skill? This is an actual red herring, as you are trying to divert the argument, to your definition of "skill". I provided an example of a game mode that actually requires skill. As in PvP: weapons, and frames are balanced around each other, and you are bullet jumping around, trying to hit another player who has all the same tools you do, and trying to come out on top. If you enter a PvP mode against the same player, with same equipment, the winner is either the more skillful, or simply luckier. The average enemy horde in warframe has vastly different tools, aren't even half as agile, and main method of beating players is simply out-scaling them.  Killing players just by dealing ever rising damage outputs, till a shot finally hits you and kills you. On the other hand, enemies aren't hard to hit. Explosive weapons, Atomos, and Amprex don't even take aim. Just point an Ignis Wraith in the general direction, and you will hit something if you are simply close enough. How many players ever died, and went. "Man, that was hell of a shot. 1 in a million by that Grineer bombard. That homing rocket was pure skill" Nobody ever, as no skill is involved in either side of the scenario. 

9 hours ago, Buttaface said:

Wasn't talking about leveling or farming tiles like Hydron and Draco,

So I know it isn't these... Except that Draco was low level, and is currently low level. Either way, your point is basically non-existent regardless. Level 20 enemies are slightly more trivial then level 30s. Anything on the star map is considered low level to me, as a base frame can handle the entire star map without breaking a sweat. On to bust the rest of your points, again.
 

1 hour ago, Buttaface said:

2. That old Volt could "kill every enemy on the map" is a lie, and more of the same red herring stuff. In addition, farming lower level maps with weapons is easy and slightly more engaging. Semi AFK spam teams are not necessary to gather any amount of any resources in WF.

Old volt definitely could. However, that's not that point. AoE's aren't going anywhere. Nor should they be. They've been a part of Warframe since Forever, and limiting AoE's cause you don't like them is a terrible idea to limit yourself when it comes to game design. Also, I'm not sure you are familiar with the concept of farming. Farming is gathering resources, as fast and efficiently as possible.  Back when Zephyr first came out, she needed much more oxium then basically any player had. (400 oxium per part) Sure you can kill enemies with guns, but it is more fun, faster, and more satisfying to run in with a 5 Forma-ed Saryn. See a bunch of Oxium Ospreys and nuke them before they get a change to self destruct. Also faster, as you will have higher kills per second, then enemies spawn faster, and you save time. I haven't seen a single enemy in Warframe that I can't kill with a gun. Doesn't mean that is my preferred play style. (Remember, not everyone has the same tastes, and definition of fun, as you.) 
 

2 hours ago, Buttaface said:

3. I, and presumably OP, are indeed complaining about Saryn and other AOE spam on non farming tiles... right here in the written record of the thread, so there goes that.

The OP mentioned in the very first post, that they are baby sitting around while the Saryn nukes everything. You would not be sitting around, in the following missions. Hijack, Spy, Rescue, Raid bosses, Deception, Mobile Defense, Exterminate, Hive, Boss fights, Capture. As you have to move around the map, and do other things, if you are sitting around in these missions, you have no right to complain.

That leaves, Defense missions, interceptions, survivals, and excavations. So the majority of farming missions, people bring a farming frame. Imagine my surprise! That's like bringing a Loki to a spy mission! Absolutely unheard of. 
 

2 hours ago, Buttaface said:

4. Your doubling down on the Spy missions is MORE red herring. Completely irrelevant to the discussion and pure anecdote to boot.

Nope. Part of a point. A point you refuse to come to grips with. You claim Saryn is broken in every way to try to justify your hatred of how she works. Yet she is completely useless in quite a few mission types. I'll get more to that later when I read your "Saryn top 10 best tank" reply. 
 

2 hours ago, Buttaface said:

5. You are welcome to your opinion about tryhard players and what they do. The -fact- is that missions that do not require such are crammed full of AOE spamming frames that ruin the experience for lower players seeking to be engaged in a game as opposed to watching a rather boring show while not participating. Your "proof" is just another type of fallacy, a non sequitur.

Your "fact" is your opinion. I proved empirical evidence, that DE recorded themselves. The actual % of warframe use per player base during a given week. (Which is infinite more evidence that you have provided. SO much for your "fact") Here's some more evidence to bury you under. Notice how Rhino has massive amount of use in the early game? Feel free to go back to that link I provided for you. Basically Rhino is one of the most played frames in low level content. No skill to use. Very basic, no ability really has any dynamic interaction with anything else. Yet Mag is the opposite. All her abilities have different effects when used together. Polarize interacting with magnetize, making her really powerful later in the game when you learn to use her. People start with easy brain dead frames. Then get fancier with their frames, as they go further into the game. Mag's usage dips, then starts to rise. People using her in the beginning, then picking her back up with a better understanding of the game. By the time players reach Mastery Rank 25, and the massive amount of farming they have gone through to get to that rank. (It is a lot of weapons and frames) They go Saryn. The most obvious answer is cause she offers the easiest solution. I haven't seen these "Try-hards" you claim are everywhere. Spoiler alert? Nobody cares what your damage is. It might be cool to see that somebody got that many kills, or did that much damage. Then people go on with their lives. 
 

2 hours ago, Buttaface said:

6. To restate, it is perfectly easy to kill plenty of mobs to farm any content and get any resources using less AOE spammy frames and weapons while being more engaged in the game. If players want to cheese that kind of play, fine. It should be sequestered from early planets... such as Earth, Mercury and Venus (to avoid Uranus variety of red herring).

Warframe is a very easy game. There's no difference between kill enemies with a gun, or an ability. No point in splitting the player base, limiting who people can play with, when you have every option to tailor your own Warframe experience. Look up the definition of "Public". Get a good understanding of it. 
 

2 hours ago, Buttaface said:

7. I don't know what I'm talking about? No, that's you. See how easy and empty that is? Please do continue though, it's funny.

Except unlike you, I give proof. Even a long list of examples to show you how misguided you are. Instead of coming up with a counter argument, you whimsically ignore it. 
If you can't back up your claim, You're wrong. Here's some proof for you. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VuZPmRzFfWw

Just a regular Nidus. I don't even have the adaptation mod equipped. Just eating gunfire. Not even blocking. I didn't even use my ultimate to heal myself. This shows you have a fundamental lack of understand of Warframes. Nidus is amazing as he can get upto 72% base damage reduction with a maxed steel fiber, with his armor. (He gets hit by an attack that would do 100 damage, it is reduced to 28.) Then using a maxed Vitality, he has an effective health of 3964 health. When Nidus used Parasitic Link to a target, he gains an addition 90% damage reduction. Using that same example, 100 damage would be reduced to 2.8 damage - or 97% damage reduction. This gives him an effective health of 37,000. Then factor in his Ultimate healing him every second, and his passive ignoring death? Then you could go even further. Start blocking with your melee weapon. 

Saryn on the other hand, despite having a good amount of armor; has no additional damage reduction available to her other then blocking with melee. This makes her a terrible tank frame, as actual tank frames, have abilities that increase their capability to soak damage. See Valkyr, Chroma, Gara, Rhino, etc...
 

2 hours ago, Buttaface said:

8. Being an easier game does not preclude WF from training newer players to play more skillfully than they do, which would be better and more engaging than AOE spam. That the average skill level of players now versus in the past is a sewer is a fact. PvP is just more red herring, not surprised.

Skill doesn't exist in PvE Warframe. This is a Red Herring. As you are trying to again divert to this imaginary "skill" of yours. PvP is an example of actual skill, in the game. Give me an actual tangible example of skill in the PvE of Warframe. The game is entirely about how good your load out it setup. We have assault rifles that shoot homing bullets. Pistols that lob the area in grenades, Flamethrowers, every kind of grenade launcher you could possibly imagine. Aiming a gun, and shooting an AI enemy is not skillful. Enemies are slow, less agile, and predictable. Easy game is easy. No skill needed, no skill required. It's basically the third person shooter equivalent of Diablo. 

 

3 hours ago, Buttaface said:

9. Arbitration and higher enemy argument? MORE red herring. My complaints about AOE spam are specific to lower level players in earlier maps.

You complained about low level missions - where the "problem" off AoE solely exists. The most sensible answer, the easier, and the least obtrusive is higher level missions. Arbitration is the best example of where AoE is harmless. (Nice try though. You fail at debate.) Enemies are high enough level, with added protection of Nullifiers, Ancient Disruptors, or reduced through armor of the grineer. Not to mention the additional protection of Arbitration drones that prevent enemies under their protection from all sources of damage, and crowd control. 
 

3 hours ago, Buttaface said:

10. That the "entire solar system" is a breeze one can complete with a half-modded Karak is yet another lie. Why lie?

You wish it was a lie. You said it yourself. Want to see what a 130% Power Strength Rhino and a One forma Karak can do? It had 2-3 empty mod slots. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sdQd-BGCIJQ
That's the hardest the Solar Map has to offer. My karak was purposely neutered, and my rhino severely gimped. Yet, that's not really not my point. AoE is fine. If you want to be a Tryhard, (face it. You clearly are one. All you to do is talk about skill. Like a tryhard, trying to pretend you have any.) and play without AoE, nobody is forcing you, or the newbs or anyone to experience that. Matchmaking options, are there for you. And any mission can be completed if you put the time into your gear.