As a new player I am little tired of "dumb" gameplay mechanics like Saryn - press 4 to kill map...

[Klokwerkaos]

Rules for matchmaking:

Other players have different priorities and playstyles.  They have different skill levels and access.  They have different ideas of what fun is.

Go to carry or go to fail, learn that now.

DE is responsible for game content... YOU are responsible for your enjoyment of that content.

Options:

-Put your own group together that plays like you like.

-Play solo.

-Up your arsenal so you are competitive. 

-Deal with it.

Those are your options, choose your own adventure.

You have 4 options.

DE already bends over backwards to cater to new players to the point of babying them to death.  Line in the sand is drawn here.  You don't have to like how other people play or don't, and they don't have to like how you play or don't.  Assuming you should be special when de already bends over backwards to change the diapers of new players is at best best misguided and ill informed and more realistically is often narcissistic entitlement and pure laziness. 

Keep your uninformed opinions off my farming.

Edited November 28, 2018 by Klokwerkaos

[ysmer]

ill just post about things like this in weapons feedback but basically the problem its the same, i think warframe abilities should affect diferent all kind of enemys i would like to hear your idead to improve the situation right now but im also not satisfied with the way some warframes (just not saryn) use a few abilites and are able to kill or cc all around them see my post about weapons and maybe we can make a similar feedback and proposal about warframes abilites

[Roadle32111]

I rather have saryn kill for me than to have nyx stop me from killing...

[Buttaface]

14 hours ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

#1 No you haven't clarified. You have told me what it isn't. I know that according to you it isn't the following: "Hydron and Draco" I also am taking your logic, and moving it to the next step. You want to separate players, I use logic to see where that would end. Not every player will have a team that they can invite for low level missions, or even have teams that have the desire to run low level missions. This is where I take your logic to the next step, and see where that leads. Solo players would have those two options. Which isn't a red herring, its a logical step forward in logic. You wanted the player base split, this is the path I see it leading towards. Using more nukes, to farm solo, or CC just to get the mission over. 

Secondly, I asked you to show me the proof that Warframe is less skillful then is used to be. Show me evidence. Otherwise you saying the "average player skill" is utterly meaningless. Skill? What skill? This is an actual red herring, as you are trying to divert the argument, to your definition of "skill". I provided an example of a game mode that actually requires skill. As in PvP: weapons, and frames are balanced around each other, and you are bullet jumping around, trying to hit another player who has all the same tools you do, and trying to come out on top. If you enter a PvP mode against the same player, with same equipment, the winner is either the more skillful, or simply luckier. The average enemy horde in warframe has vastly different tools, aren't even half as agile, and main method of beating players is simply out-scaling them.  Killing players just by dealing ever rising damage outputs, till a shot finally hits you and kills you. On the other hand, enemies aren't hard to hit. Explosive weapons, Atomos, and Amprex don't even take aim. Just point an Ignis Wraith in the general direction, and you will hit something if you are simply close enough. How many players ever died, and went. "Man, that was hell of a shot. 1 in a million by that Grineer bombard. That homing rocket was pure skill" Nobody ever, as no skill is involved in either side of the scenario. 

So I know it isn't these... Except that Draco was low level, and is currently low level. Either way, your point is basically non-existent regardless. Level 20 enemies are slightly more trivial then level 30s. Anything on the star map is considered low level to me, as a base frame can handle the entire star map without breaking a sweat. On to bust the rest of your points, again.
 

Old volt definitely could. However, that's not that point. AoE's aren't going anywhere. Nor should they be. They've been a part of Warframe since Forever, and limiting AoE's cause you don't like them is a terrible idea to limit yourself when it comes to game design. Also, I'm not sure you are familiar with the concept of farming. Farming is gathering resources, as fast and efficiently as possible.  Back when Zephyr first came out, she needed much more oxium then basically any player had. (400 oxium per part) Sure you can kill enemies with guns, but it is more fun, faster, and more satisfying to run in with a 5 Forma-ed Saryn. See a bunch of Oxium Ospreys and nuke them before they get a change to self destruct. Also faster, as you will have higher kills per second, then enemies spawn faster, and you save time. I haven't seen a single enemy in Warframe that I can't kill with a gun. Doesn't mean that is my preferred play style. (Remember, not everyone has the same tastes, and definition of fun, as you.) 
 

The OP mentioned in the very first post, that they are baby sitting around while the Saryn nukes everything. You would not be sitting around, in the following missions. Hijack, Spy, Rescue, Raid bosses, Deception, Mobile Defense, Exterminate, Hive, Boss fights, Capture. As you have to move around the map, and do other things, if you are sitting around in these missions, you have no right to complain.

That leaves, Defense missions, interceptions, survivals, and excavations. So the majority of farming missions, people bring a farming frame. Imagine my surprise! That's like bringing a Loki to a spy mission! Absolutely unheard of. 
 

Nope. Part of a point. A point you refuse to come to grips with. You claim Saryn is broken in every way to try to justify your hatred of how she works. Yet she is completely useless in quite a few mission types. I'll get more to that later when I read your "Saryn top 10 best tank" reply. 
 

Your "fact" is your opinion. I proved empirical evidence, that DE recorded themselves. The actual % of warframe use per player base during a given week. (Which is infinite more evidence that you have provided. SO much for your "fact") Here's some more evidence to bury you under. Notice how Rhino has massive amount of use in the early game? Feel free to go back to that link I provided for you. Basically Rhino is one of the most played frames in low level content. No skill to use. Very basic, no ability really has any dynamic interaction with anything else. Yet Mag is the opposite. All her abilities have different effects when used together. Polarize interacting with magnetize, making her really powerful later in the game when you learn to use her. People start with easy brain dead frames. Then get fancier with their frames, as they go further into the game. Mag's usage dips, then starts to rise. People using her in the beginning, then picking her back up with a better understanding of the game. By the time players reach Mastery Rank 25, and the massive amount of farming they have gone through to get to that rank. (It is a lot of weapons and frames) They go Saryn. The most obvious answer is cause she offers the easiest solution. I haven't seen these "Try-hards" you claim are everywhere. Spoiler alert? Nobody cares what your damage is. It might be cool to see that somebody got that many kills, or did that much damage. Then people go on with their lives. 
 

Warframe is a very easy game. There's no difference between kill enemies with a gun, or an ability. No point in splitting the player base, limiting who people can play with, when you have every option to tailor your own Warframe experience. Look up the definition of "Public". Get a good understanding of it. 
 

Except unlike you, I give proof. Even a long list of examples to show you how misguided you are. Instead of coming up with a counter argument, you whimsically ignore it. 
If you can't back up your claim, You're wrong. Here's some proof for you. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VuZPmRzFfWw

Just a regular Nidus. I don't even have the adaptation mod equipped. Just eating gunfire. Not even blocking. I didn't even use my ultimate to heal myself. This shows you have a fundamental lack of understand of Warframes. Nidus is amazing as he can get upto 72% base damage reduction with a maxed steel fiber, with his armor. (He gets hit by an attack that would do 100 damage, it is reduced to 28.) Then using a maxed Vitality, he has an effective health of 3964 health. When Nidus used Parasitic Link to a target, he gains an addition 90% damage reduction. Using that same example, 100 damage would be reduced to 2.8 damage - or 97% damage reduction. This gives him an effective health of 37,000. Then factor in his Ultimate healing him every second, and his passive ignoring death? Then you could go even further. Start blocking with your melee weapon. 

Saryn on the other hand, despite having a good amount of armor; has no additional damage reduction available to her other then blocking with melee. This makes her a terrible tank frame, as actual tank frames, have abilities that increase their capability to soak damage. See Valkyr, Chroma, Gara, Rhino, etc...
 

Skill doesn't exist in PvE Warframe. This is a Red Herring. As you are trying to again divert to this imaginary "skill" of yours. PvP is an example of actual skill, in the game. Give me an actual tangible example of skill in the PvE of Warframe. The game is entirely about how good your load out it setup. We have assault rifles that shoot homing bullets. Pistols that lob the area in grenades, Flamethrowers, every kind of grenade launcher you could possibly imagine. Aiming a gun, and shooting an AI enemy is not skillful. Enemies are slow, less agile, and predictable. Easy game is easy. No skill needed, no skill required. It's basically the third person shooter equivalent of Diablo. 

 

You complained about low level missions - where the "problem" off AoE solely exists. The most sensible answer, the easier, and the least obtrusive is higher level missions. Arbitration is the best example of where AoE is harmless. (Nice try though. You fail at debate.) Enemies are high enough level, with added protection of Nullifiers, Ancient Disruptors, or reduced through armor of the grineer. Not to mention the additional protection of Arbitration drones that prevent enemies under their protection from all sources of damage, and crowd control. 
 

You wish it was a lie. You said it yourself. Want to see what a 130% Power Strength Rhino and a One forma Karak can do? It had 2-3 empty mod slots. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sdQd-BGCIJQ
That's the hardest the Solar Map has to offer. My karak was purposely neutered, and my rhino severely gimped. Yet, that's not really not my point. AoE is fine. If you want to be a Tryhard, (face it. You clearly are one. All you to do is talk about skill. Like a tryhard, trying to pretend you have any.) and play without AoE, nobody is forcing you, or the newbs or anyone to experience that. Matchmaking options, are there for you. And any mission can be completed if you put the time into your gear. 
 

 

Have posted Earth, Venus and Mercury as prospective planets to sequester newbs, what, 3-4 times now? Dishonest or poor reading comprehension, which? There are all kinds of workarounds and minor tweaking possible to do this right and allow lower level players to learn the game for awhile before entering the larger AOE cheese fiesta, making your retorts and rank speculations red herrings. WF is a much broader game in play areas and tiles than in the past, making a "newbie" area a good design option towards retention.

I'm not showing you "evidence" or "prove" anything on a game forum unless I've been paid in advance for my time, nor am I going to add "IMO" to everything that is an opinion. I say the PUG player base is much less skilled than it was a couple of years ago, you disagree. Fine. PvP is utterly irrelevant to that claim.

Draco was not "low level" when it was an exp cave and would not be "low level" if it existed as such now. Stop posting blatant falsehoods. Feel free to consider the entire star chart "low level" all you like and be wrong. Earth, Mercury, Venus and Mars, some of the Void tiles, are "low level."

Your speculations about what mission types OP is playing are irrelevant. All that is relevant is that the OP is not having fun, and my opinion is that this is widespread among newer players when mixed with higher level players using AOE tryhard builds on low level maps.

AOE in WF is cancerous in its present state. Not only Saryn, but many cheeze abilities. AOE is just fine in games when it is limited, capped, whatever. WF is the only game I've ever played that doesn't do that. Moreover, I believe that this results in poor player retention generally, not to mention complaints that the game doesn't present a challenge. As good as WF is graphically, there should be over 100k active players at any time as a ratio of those who have tried it, yet there are not. This suggests to me that something is wrong with the game's functionality, and that includes mixing new and vet players, not limiting AOE in meaningful ways, and no challenge once a certain point is reached. Those are my opinions, again, agree or not.

The "evidence" in your wall doesn't amount to squat, doesn't even begin to form a reasonable correlation relevant to this topic, is full of groundless assumptions, and all the rhino/mag bladebla that I only skimmed is also irrelevant.

WF is also one of few MMO-like games without a "newb" area or areas where players learn the game before entering the larger game world. WF is one of the only games without a decent tutorial during that time. The argument that players should have complete freedom from the moment they install the game is not compelling in the least in light of all the dozens and hundreds of other MMO type games that sequester newer players and meaningfully TEACH them the game during that time. WF gives them the equivalent of a pamphlet, then sends them off into a boring cheeze fiesta.

No, I'm not clicking on a youtube video as "proof" of anything, a term you plainly don't understand. Your Nidus ramble is utterly irrelevant, and yes, I do in fact have a very strong working knowledge of the game mechanics including all the irrelevant DR mechanics you include in the wall for god knows why. If you have to play frames like Nidus to handle higher level content, well that's your cross to bear. I don't.

WF is an easy game, no argument. But there are basic skills common to all MMO-like games, have already listed them in the thread and you ignored, that end up skipped in WF because AOE cheeze is too readily available. Easy or not, the average player in WF is atrociously bad at the game as it is. If WF included more AOE limited modes and tiles, IMO the game would retain more players.

I posted that Saryn is one of the top ten tank frames. You claimed it is squishy and you are still wrong. The point was that a frame with two of the best AOE powers in the game together with augmented self healing in its aggro strip, AND the best melee buffing skill to boot, should not have 300 base armor also (only three frames/primes, Valkyr, Chroma and Atlas have more), and it is valid. The Saryn rework was way overdone.

Finally, more dishonesty with the Roar buffed karak. What you posted was that a half modded karak could "BREEZE" anything on the star chart... then you buff it with roar LULZ (oh...and was that a karak wraith? more lulz). Go do an hour of Mot with your half modded (that's 4 mods) UNBUFFED ordinary old karak without using frame powers and get back to us... or just admit you were caught in a flagrant exaggeration. I could probably pull this off (doubt you could), but it wouldn't be anything near a "breeze."

Anyway, have stated my opinions, and this will be my last post. They are, (again) since you rarely directly address them even in a wall, 1. OP's feelings are valid, newer players mixed with tryhard vets on low level tiles with max range AOE is a snooze fest as the many, long complaint threads about this, not just this one, attest. 2. WF needs to sequester Newbs and do a better job teaching them the game before they get to the AOE cheeze fiesta, and now has the scope of real estate to do that. 3. Lots of AOE needs range, target, dmg caps generally for the good of the game, or at least more cheeze-restricted tiles/modes.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited November 29, 2018 by Buttaface

[MechaKnight]

I have been talking about this issue since U16, and it's been an issue before that too. At U16 it was Excalibur nuking the entire map within 58.75m and killing vastly more than any other warframe. Ash was around that same time killing everything with 2k slash procs, able to stack up to 40k slash damage with 100% chance at bleed procs on any enemy. Before that, Nova was nuking entire rooms since her Molecular Prime debuff range and the explosion damage range both scaled off range mods at the time.

The major issue: the game is being trivialized and this shortens its lifespan for any player who plays this game. The reason why people argue in favor of these broken mechanics is for gameplay rewards. The issue and its lobbying became obvious during the Vivergate scandal period, when an extremely balance and then-unbalanced Syndicate system was release, which was initially way too much grind for even the tiniest rewards. Once players saw how much grind was involved they created an extreme grind method, and once developers realized this they developed line-of-sight, limiting warframe ability effectiveness by only allowing them to hit enemies if the warframe was within visual sight of the enemy within 5 seconds before casting.

The solution solved the range problem in a permanently viable manner, but then players absolutely did not want it because their only viable method for farming towards syndicate rewards was being stolen from them, so they rebelled. The developers removed line-of-sight requirement mechanics from abilities, made Syndicate rewards far easier to obtain, and then went on a structured development plan to make enemies that were effectively ability-immune, by mechanics that they either resist all damage, resist abilities, nullify abilities, are extremely durable, or steal player energy.

As of currently, players still complain about long-range abilities trivializing the game, to which other players argue they should continue doing this. For those who support mindless nuke-spam they just want to farm more efficiently, but this isn't a valid point because the developers have gone to great lengths to ensure player satisfaction in material acquisition and progression. I support line-of-sight because it will in fact make the game more fun and tactical, while barely harming our ability to earn within the game.

The developers clearly have regret with their initial balance plan regarding ability range, as range mods have been much weaker beyond Stretch and Overextended, being based off 30% increments instead of 45% increments. Arbitrations are a testing ground to design invincible enemies, designed purely to combat our tendency to spam damaging radials. Newer warframes lack long-range damage radials that pass through walls.

That said, I'm glad this issue is coming up more frequently.

However make no mistake--this is a systematic issue, not one you should blame any one warframe for.

We do need a permanent ability range issue. The quick and dirty way is to change Overextended's stats from +90% range -60% strength to +50% range and -20% strength, but the true solution is something similar to line-of-sight.

[Klokwerkaos]

8 hours ago, MechaKnight said:

I have been talking about this issue since U16, and it's been an issue before that too. At U16 it was Excalibur nuking the entire map within 58.75m and killing vastly more than any other warframe. Ash was around that same time killing everything with 2k slash procs, able to stack up to 40k slash damage with 100% chance at bleed procs on any enemy. Before that, Nova was nuking entire rooms since her Molecular Prime debuff range and the explosion damage range both scaled off range mods at the time.

The major issue: the game is being trivialized and this shortens its lifespan for any player who plays this game. The reason why people argue in favor of these broken mechanics is for gameplay rewards. The issue and its lobbying became obvious during the Vivergate scandal period, when an extremely balance and then-unbalanced Syndicate system was release, which was initially way too much grind for even the tiniest rewards. Once players saw how much grind was involved they created an extreme grind method, and once developers realized this they developed line-of-sight, limiting warframe ability effectiveness by only allowing them to hit enemies if the warframe was within visual sight of the enemy within 5 seconds before casting.

The solution solved the range problem in a permanently viable manner, but then players absolutely did not want it because their only viable method for farming towards syndicate rewards was being stolen from them, so they rebelled. The developers removed line-of-sight requirement mechanics from abilities, made Syndicate rewards far easier to obtain, and then went on a structured development plan to make enemies that were effectively ability-immune, by mechanics that they either resist all damage, resist abilities, nullify abilities, are extremely durable, or steal player energy.

As of currently, players still complain about long-range abilities trivializing the game, to which other players argue they should continue doing this. For those who support mindless nuke-spam they just want to farm more efficiently, but this isn't a valid point because the developers have gone to great lengths to ensure player satisfaction in material acquisition and progression. I support line-of-sight because it will in fact make the game more fun and tactical, while barely harming our ability to earn within the game.

The developers clearly have regret with their initial balance plan regarding ability range, as range mods have been much weaker beyond Stretch and Overextended, being based off 30% increments instead of 45% increments. Arbitrations are a testing ground to design invincible enemies, designed purely to combat our tendency to spam damaging radials. Newer warframes lack long-range damage radials that pass through walls.

That said, I'm glad this issue is coming up more frequently.

However make no mistake--this is a systematic issue, not one you should blame any one warframe for.

We do need a permanent ability range issue. The quick and dirty way is to change Overextended's stats from +90% range -60% strength to +50% range and -20% strength, but the true solution is something similar to line-of-sight.

You're point is a bit off here.

If the grind to reward ratio was satisfying then people wouldn't spend hours days and weeks trying to figure out the next exploit nuke.  One guy would, but he wouldnt talk about it to make sure he didnt get it nerfed.

Grind is necessary for premium currency to habe effect in this model.  Players compensate by investing wisely and grinding efficiently.

Less efficient players then get butt hurt rather than saying thank you for their rewards, putting together their own groups or playing solo.

If the grind isn't so bad, tell me how many millions of plastics you've farmed to decorate one single room of your moon tier dojo.  If the answer is none, you are speaking from ignorance.   Tell me about the tower white grind for mountain tier.  Tell me about 12k Oxium requirements for a single object.  Then look me in the eye and tell me the grind is balanced.

It isn't.

One of the best things about warframe is it has lots of stuff to do, and players can set their own priorities.  This is also one of its biggest challenges.

By having different priorities we end up with arguments like this.  The answer is pretty simple though, you don't get to tell people what they are allowed to consider fun and how they should play.

You do get to be responsible for your own good time.  DE is responsible for content, you are responsible for your emotional content.

Additionally, you have 4 options available I lined out above.

The key thing is, you need to habe grind to male money in this model.  You also need a rewarding game play loop.  To stretch that out over 5 years their is massive power disparity between newbies and vets, as with any game.  The difference is the vets legit have something to do, not Mich, but farming is an activity that does have a payoff.  If we had sustainable endgame this might solve some of the problem but we don't.

What we have is de bending over backwards to coddle and baby new players while ignoring the vet experience almost exclusively.

Trying to take away all our efficient farming methods will result in massive outcry and exodus, not just of vets, but newer players too.

The thing is, actual balance isn't good.  If you think it is, go play Nintendo karate where both fighters are identical.  Tell me it's a good game.  If you legit think it is then go play that instead of ruining warframe.  If you recognize that the game is crap, then you realize why long game play loops require unbalanced approaches and how that is a mandatory part of existence in the market.

There is a time for nerfs, but that time is almost never.  Usually you can solve nerfing something by simply buffing elsewhere.  Nerfs are only good for things that are so far off the spectrum they are legit game breaking in all environments, not just in comparison to the new player experience.

 

 

 

Edited November 29, 2018 by Klokwerkaos

[(PSN)UltraKardas]

6 hours ago, Buttaface said:

Have posted Earth, Venus and Mercury as prospective planets to sequester newbs, what, 3-4 times now?

Nope. You haven't listed the specific planets to split players up a single time other then this post. Maybe you need to actually read what you type? You might be posting it on a different topic, or just thinking it really, really hard. I'll direct quote you every time you "Clarified"

On 2018-11-26 at 9:54 PM, Buttaface said:

Then they need to split off new/low players from vets and outright prohibit aoe cheeze altogether in certain lower planets. Once someone has left one of the newb planets, they can't get back unless they are solo or in a full invited team with no chance of getting a pug in the team or somesuch limits.

"Certain low level planets" vague response. No clarification. 

On 2018-11-27 at 2:02 PM, Buttaface said:

Wasn't talking about leveling or farming tiles like Hydron and Draco, so there goes straw man the first.

This is the only time you specifically mentioned any location at all previous to this post.

On 2018-11-27 at 9:58 PM, Buttaface said:

1. Clarified my "low level planet" point, what, twice now?

Do you need a dictionary? You clarified nothing. 
 

7 hours ago, Buttaface said:

Dishonest or poor reading comprehension, which?

You tell me. Despite asking you multiple times for clarification, you choose to avoid clarifying all together. In fact, whenever it comes to providing evidence or an example for your argument, you base it solely on your opinion with nothing to support it. Example #1

On 2018-11-27 at 2:02 PM, Buttaface said:

Saryn is one of the top ten tank frames in the game. If "squishy" in the least, it isn't built correctly, especially with some of the newer mods.

So you tried to prop up your argument, claiming that Saryn is also one of the top 10 strongest tanks. This has no evidence to support it, and I went great length to explain why this isn't the case. Even giving you an explanation of why, with detailed information about effective health when combined with damage reduction from abilities and armor. Yet you can't accept facts that contradict your point, so you choose to be purposefully ignorant. 

7 hours ago, Buttaface said:

I'm not showing you "evidence" or "prove" anything on a game forum unless I've been paid in advance for my time, nor am I going to add "IMO" to everything that is an opinion. I say the PUG player base is much less skilled than it was a couple of years ago, you disagree. Fine. PvP is utterly irrelevant to that claim.

You won't show me evidence, as you have none. Evidence would add to your credibility, (you could use some credibility) and give your claims some actual backing. Might even help convince people you are right, other then your terrible opinions. I asked you to show me an example of Skill in the game, even providing you an example of it. Yet like the typical response, you wave it off. I join arbitrations in PUGs, and 75-80% of the time in my personal experience I get a very competent team. I might get a single bad teammate, but the average person pulls their weight or doesn't drag down the team. I have yet to experience any real "skill drop" in my Public missions, and at this point, "Skill" is the only argument you can shoehorn in. 

You complain about Tryhards and "Muhdeeps" 

Yet you are a Tryhard and "MuhSkillz" You haven't even clarified what you think Skill is. A complete and utter devoid argument, that derails any positive feedback, that you can circle around to whenever somebody disproves you. (Bad logic.)
 

7 hours ago, Buttaface said:

The "evidence" in your wall doesn't amount to squat, doesn't even begin to form a reasonable correlation relevant to this topic, is full of groundless assumptions, and all the rhino/mag bladebla that I only skimmed is also irrelevant.

I would love to go through your evidence and critique it. Alas, you won't give even a proper example, other then your blithering on. Groundless assumptions comes from lack of evidence to base it on. I provided links of Warframe player usage, and an observation on those statistics, that I still believe are accurate. Tell me, other then personal experience, what do you base your facts on? What evidence are you using? None. Groundless Assumption is based on no evidence. -Every post you have made in this thread falls into this category. 

7 hours ago, Buttaface said:

WF is also one of few MMO-like games without a "newb" area or areas where players learn the game before entering the larger game world. WF is one of the only games without a decent tutorial during that time. The argument that players should have complete freedom from the moment they install the game is not compelling in the least in light of all the dozens and hundreds of other MMO type games that sequester newer players and meaningfully TEACH them the game during that time. WF gives them the equivalent of a pamphlet, then sends them off into a boring cheeze fiesta.

Warframe for quite awhile didn't have a proper tutorial. That's why they added "Vor's Prize" as a starter quest to rebuild the orbiter and explain the points behind Warframe's System. As much as I would love to cheese spam a quest for a newb (Sarcasm) It's an invite only quest. After this tutorial, Newbs have to unlock new areas, with certain tasks just like in any other MMO. Junctions have challenges tied to them, to force newbs into teaching themselves as they complete the required tasks to progress. However, this has nothing to do with the argument. As the OP is mainly complaining about farming missions. I see nukers like Saryn  far less frequently on random missions. Then I see them extremely commonly on missions like Hydron. I wouldn't call this low level, but I wouldn't call it high level either. Coming into this mission, the player has to take their lumps and accept the team they get. No matter how good or bad they may be.
 

7 hours ago, Buttaface said:

No, I'm not clicking on a youtube video as "proof" of anything, a term you plainly don't understand. Your Nidus ramble is utterly irrelevant, and yes, I do in fact have a very strong working knowledge of the game mechanics including all the irrelevant DR mechanics you include in the wall for god knows why. If you have to play frames like Nidus to handle higher level content, well that's your cross to bear. I don't.

This is hilarious to me. The blatant contradictions in your argument are outstanding. You would know so much about "proof" after giving so much of it. Tell me, do you just clap your hands on your ears and shut your eyes whenever somebody has any evidence to disprove you? This is proof, and actual hard example of what a Top ten tank can do. Level 125 gunners just blasting away at me for about a minute, while I stand and watch. This was to disprove your "Saryn is So Op. Top 10 tank Plz Nerf" argument you tried to make. 

Tell me dude, What kind of higher level content have you experienced? Cause I'm really starting to think, that for you, level 30 is High Level. 


You'll notice if you look, a level 602 enemy hit me for 306 damage. I had around 97% damage reduction at this point. Meaning normally, this hit would have done 13,000 damage without any Damage resistance. Even at 90% damage reduction, that hit (1300) would have killed most frames. But if you don't know what High level content is, then that's your cross to bear. This is actual proof of the strength of a top 10 tank. Saryn has no capability of doing this on her own. 
 

7 hours ago, Buttaface said:

WF is an easy game, no argument. But there are basic skills common to all MMO-like games, have already listed them in the thread and you ignored, that end up skipped in WF because AOE cheeze is too readily available. Easy or not, the average player in WF is atrociously bad at the game as it is. If WF included more AOE limited modes and tiles, IMO the game would retain more players.

(No, you haven't listed anything in this thread. You give no examples) AoE skills are common to all MMO like games. Ever heard of a "Caster?" Casters stereotypically have low defense to offset their high damage. Saryn, and every other high dps frame that can clear rooms with AoE fit into this mold. The only difference is in Warframe, you have farm the Warframe, the mods to make it good. craft it, level it up multiple times before you have the ability to do so. Other games just have you level up, and have higher gear then the enemies under your level. If you count Forma towards Saryn's level, then the average Saryn is around level 90-120 with as many high end mods as the player can fit on. Saryn should be able to trivialize any enemy under her level. 

8 hours ago, Buttaface said:

I posted that Saryn is one of the top ten tank frames. You claimed it is squishy and you are still wrong. The point was that a frame with two of the best AOE powers in the game together with augmented self healing in its aggro strip, AND the best melee buffing skill to boot, should not have 300 base armor also (only three frames/primes, Valkyr, Chroma and Atlas have more), and it is valid. The Saryn rework was way overdone.

You call me wrong, you might want to check your facts, Chief. Saryn doesn't anything close to the actual tank ability of other frames. I already stated this fact to you previously. If you used facts or evidence, you might know this. Even after citing the ridiculous amount of Effective health Nidus can have. Since you are unaware, Let me educate you on Saryn's effective health. 

Saryn Prime has an effective health of 2,890 points with a maxed vitality, and a steel fiber. This comes primarily from her 67% damage reduction. Inaros on the other hand, has more effective health then her, if he's only equipped with maxed vitality mod. Giving him Steel Fiber, and Vitality, has him at a base effective health of 11,268 points of health, or roughly 4x Saryn's effective health. Giving him additional armor with his ultimate, gives him an effective health of 14,437.5 effective health. This is without any augment, and doesn't detract away from his other abilities. 

A Rhino Prime's Ironskin will soak up 3,160 damage, if he is equipped with nothing more then an intensify, and and a steel fiber. His one ability gives him more effective health then Saryn Prime. This gives him a total of 5,336 effective health if he's only equipped with a vitality, steel fiber, and an intensify. However, Iron Skin soaks up damage, has a 3 second invincibility window, and can be recast. 

Trinity Prime with Link, and Blessing can get her two separate instances of 75% damage reduction. This gives her a total damage reduction of 94% with her armor. This means she will have 12,333 effective health in this scenario. 

Nyx with Assimilation, and max efficiency can absorb 1000 damage for a cost of 2 energy. This makes her immensely tanky, as tanking 3,000 damage would cost her 6 energy. 100 energy can negate 50,000 points of damage in the best case scenario. 

Chroma will have vastly different effective health depending on the element you set him as. Ice Choma has ridiculous armor, while Fire Chroma will give him more health. An Intensify, and a Steel Fiber will give him 2,327 armor when he uses scorn which is 88.5% damage reduction. If he has a maxed vitality on, this gives him an effective health of 6,491 points. This number grows larger with Elemental ward. 

More evidence to show you, how little you really know. An ability that draws aggro doesn't make Saryn tanky. Just like Loki's decoy doesn't make him tanky. A self healing augment, isn't impressive, when every frame can equip Life Strike on their melee weapon, and heal far more efficiently. Regenerative molt, also won't heal for the entire amount, if Saryn has reduced ability duration. 
 

9 hours ago, Buttaface said:

Finally, more dishonesty with the Roar buffed karak. What you posted was that a half modded karak could "BREEZE" anything on the star chart... then you buff it with roar LULZ (oh...and was that a karak wraith? more lulz). Go do an hour of Mot with your half modded (that's 4 mods) UNBUFFED ordinary old karak without using frame powers and get back

If you have working eyeballs, you can look at the bottom corner of the screen. See where it says "Karak"? Equipping a different weapon would label that "Karak Wraith". Also if you had eyeballs, you could see that without roar, it melts through the lower corrupted enemies in 1-2 seconds. You know... at the start of the video? You can see when and what abilities I have active. Also at the bottom corner of the video. Corrupted enemies have the most health and armor of any unit in the star chart, as well as the highest level. Instead of using roar, you could substitute an Excalibur, and just kill everything with exalted blade. The karak could handle those enemies, and could handle any enemy under that level. Talk about dishonesty on your part though. At this point, I hope nobody takes your arguments seriously, as you blatantly admitted to not using proof, not looking at evidence, and completely failing at discrediting evidence. Another fail for you the Tryhard. 
 

9 hours ago, Buttaface said:

Anyway, have stated my opinions, and this will be my last post. They are, (again) since you rarely directly address them even in a wall, 1. OP's feelings are valid, newer players mixed with tryhard vets on low level tiles with max range AOE is a snooze fest as the many, long complaint threads about this, not just this one, attest. 2. WF needs to sequester Newbs and do a better job teaching them the game before they get to the AOE cheeze fiesta, and now has the scope of real estate to do that. 3. Lots of AOE needs range, target, dmg caps generally for the good of the game, or at least more cheeze-restricted tiles/modes.

You have stated only opinions. Not facts. I hope it will be your last post as your posts have had nothing worth reading. No, lower players should not be segregated from vets, Unless, they add it on as a completely optional matchmaking option. If low level players choose that option, that is fine, and acceptable. Otherwise, every word of your posts is hot garbage. AoE is fine, and keeps players feeling powerful. Limiting AoE and adding on damage caps would leave the game feeling immensely grindy, and make enemies into Boring Bullet Sponges akin to Destiny. This is a quick paced, horde shooter, to the likes of Diablo. Not a "Skill" based borefest like you pretend it is. 






 

[W3zeer]

vor 50 Minuten schrieb (PS4)UltraKardas:

-snip

Dude, you should stop playing word games of this length, noone is going to read that. It's no shame in having a different opinion than your opponent but what you do is systematically trying to ignore everything he writes and hammer on perceived mistakes in argumentational style. In the end that makes you look pedantic. This is an exchange of opinions no facts are being established. Also all this arguing of what frame is best in very high level environments is done in a threat about clearing low level maps, way missing the point.

In the end, reaching high level enemies in warframe is no show of skill but only endurance. Chose one of several easy to follow strategies and you can't fail. It's great AoE makes you feel powerful and all, but maybe you should think of the other 3 players in your squad. If you're able to delete everything to shoot at before they get a chance to see it, those 3 will feel the opposite of powerful, i.e. useless. Usually I play games to enjoy the gameplay, not to look at end of mission screens, but hey that's just me. If the majority wants to play a pickup simulator, who am I to criticize thise? I'm only writing because maybe enough ppl are feeling that way that player satisfaction might take a significant hit if enough players are feeling that way and decide spending their time elsewhere when they get nothing else to do than spam a single button 90% of the time. In that case the devs should know about it and they might decide to change a few things. And since lots of those tactics have been adressed in the past it might seem the devs do somewhat agree with that thought.

[Noob.Saibot]

Is this even a topic to talk about.... smh leave it to the new players to get the game nerf. since fortuna came out it also drag in a lot of nubs as well...trying to kill enemies with their MK 1 braton. Am getting tired of the these lil cry babies trying to change the game for their liking which they wont even be around for a another year, only here for the hype.

[(PSN)FriendSharkey]

This is why De needs a elite star map...to funnel all the vets out of the lower planets...or maybe add moons like Lua to Earth so vets can farm there rather than destroying the fun for the new players...I keep thinking about FORZA and how you have to pull parts off your car in order to race in certain venues. This might be equally and fairly applied to our own mod sets ups when entering the lower planets...it's not like vets aren't sitting on tons of endo and mods and have differing levels of power for them...

Edited November 29, 2018 by (PS4)FriendSharkey

[180Degree]

On 2018-11-25 at 6:13 PM, Marakai said:

Saryn kills whole map using so much skill as pressing 2 buttons.

HEY some has to 1 shot the map at Hydron to lvl the weapons xD

You should not be bothered by people 1shotting the map bcus you won't get what you want. every1 in this game (that plays for a good amount) has frames that can nuke.
If you are going to get triggered everytime you see 1 you should look for a diffrend game.

P.S. every1 in this game is a scientist mixing up mods and combinations to strife for nuking (We are suckers like that).
Even if everything get's nerfed to the bone, we will find something else that still will ruin every enemy in a single shot.

[(PSN)UltraKardas]

1 hour ago, W3zeer said:

Dude, you should stop playing word games of this length, noone is going to read that. It's no shame in having a different opinion than your opponent but what you do is systematically trying to ignore everything he writes and hammer on perceived mistakes in argumentational style. In the end that makes you look pedantic. This is an exchange of opinions no facts are being established. Also all this arguing of what frame is best in very high level environments is done in a threat about clearing low level maps, way missing the point.

My conversation was with somebody who didn't clarify his opinion, and just stated everything else to be a fact. So I took his argument, and directed it part by part. 
There's a difference between opinion, and just spouting nonsense without evidence.

The argument about Saryn being tanky, was to try to hype Saryn up as broken in multiple regards, and is easily debunked. 
 

2 hours ago, W3zeer said:

In the end, reaching high level enemies in warframe is no show of skill but only endurance. Chose one of several easy to follow strategies and you can't fail. It's great AoE makes you feel powerful and all, but maybe you should think of the other 3 players in your squad. If you're able to delete everything to shoot at before they get a chance to see it, those 3 will feel the opposite of powerful, i.e. useless. Usually I play games to enjoy the gameplay, not to look at end of mission screens, but hey that's just me. If the majority wants to play a pickup simulator, who am I to criticize thise? I'm only writing because maybe enough ppl are feeling that way that player satisfaction might take a significant hit if enough players are feeling that way and decide spending their time elsewhere when they get nothing else to do than spam a single button 90% of the time. In that case the devs should know about it and they might decide to change a few things. And since lots of those tactics have been adressed in the past it might seem the devs do somewhat agree with that thought.

High Level enemies won't be trivialized in the same way low levels can be wiped off the map from a single AoE. I have seen 0 complaints about AoE frames in arbitrations for exactly this reason. Nobody has complained about +300% Power Strength Saryn. This discussion revolves around more then just dps. This is also a discussion about farming, which is why Saryn is so popular among other reasons. I think the best solution, would be to have high level enemy drop higher scaling rewards. The same amount of Polymer Bundles drop if I kill a level 30, or a level 15. Why would somebody bother farming higher enemies more slowly? A post brought up the point awhile ago, how ridiculous farming can get later in the games. Hema for a direct example, was an absolute chore to unlock for a larger clan. 

Press 4 to win, is already basically a thing of the past. See how Miasma's damage already got cut in half on enemies without spores. 

 

[(PSN)teacup775]

On 2018-11-25 at 9:35 AM, Marakai said:

Pressing one button once or two buttons once is hardly "hack n slash". It's "stand and splash" maybe.

The most imprtant thing is looking good while doing so.

Fashion is what matters in this game. That an 2000pl groll rivens for the current meta purchased in trade chat.

True end game are those flipping prime gear and rivens for hours in trade.

😉

[Buttaface]

8 hours ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

Nope. You haven't listed the specific planets to split players up a single time other then this post.

Tuesday 4:02, Tues 11:58. In both posts I mentioned the planets I meant by "low level" by name, right on this page of the thread. Stopped reading the voluminous tome there, why bother with a poster who persistently posts things that aren't the case together with mountains of total, utter irrelevance? And yeah, this one will be my last post to the thread. Have stated my opinions, agree with OP and others in the thread who recognize the problem.

[(PSN)UltraKardas]

28 minutes ago, Buttaface said:

Tuesday 4:02, Tues 11:58. In both posts I mentioned the planets I meant by "low level" by name, right on this page of the thread. Stopped reading the voluminous tome there, why bother with a poster who persistently posts things that aren't the case together with mountains of total, utter irrelevance? And yeah, this one will be my last post to the thread. Have stated my opinions, agree with OP and others in the thread who recognize the problem.

Speak for yourself, sir. All that information posted is about the inaccurate claims you make, from Saryn being tanky to the other nonsense you post. 

Also, you already mentioned that you were quitting, taking your ball home and leaving. Yet you are still here. Still without anything to support your claims of skill or other dumb notions you offhanded mentioned. Looking back at one of your posts, I did notice you mentioned the planets after mentioning Fortuna as a farm. 

(Except that doesn't fix anything, as most farming is done in dark sectors, where you get bonus materials, or hydron where the exp is good...)

[MechaKnight]

15 hours ago, Klokwerkaos said:

You're point is a bit off here.

If the grind to reward ratio was satisfying then people wouldn't spend hours days and weeks trying to figure out the next exploit nuke.  One guy would, but he wouldnt talk about it to make sure he didnt get it nerfed.

Grind is necessary for premium currency to habe effect in this model.  Players compensate by investing wisely and grinding efficiently.

Less efficient players then get butt hurt rather than saying thank you for their rewards, putting together their own groups or playing solo.

If the grind isn't so bad, tell me how many millions of plastics you've farmed to decorate one single room of your moon tier dojo.  If the answer is none, you are speaking from ignorance.   Tell me about the tower white grind for mountain tier.  Tell me about 12k Oxium requirements for a single object.  Then look me in the eye and tell me the grind is balanced.

It isn't.

One of the best things about warframe is it has lots of stuff to do, and players can set their own priorities.  This is also one of its biggest challenges.

By having different priorities we end up with arguments like this.  The answer is pretty simple though, you don't get to tell people what they are allowed to consider fun and how they should play.

You do get to be responsible for your own good time.  DE is responsible for content, you are responsible for your emotional content.

Additionally, you have 4 options available I lined out above.

The key thing is, you need to habe grind to male money in this model.  You also need a rewarding game play loop.  To stretch that out over 5 years their is massive power disparity between newbies and vets, as with any game.  The difference is the vets legit have something to do, not Mich, but farming is an activity that does have a payoff.  If we had sustainable endgame this might solve some of the problem but we don't.

What we have is de bending over backwards to coddle and baby new players while ignoring the vet experience almost exclusively.

Trying to take away all our efficient farming methods will result in massive outcry and exodus, not just of vets, but newer players too.

The thing is, actual balance isn't good.  If you think it is, go play Nintendo karate where both fighters are identical.  Tell me it's a good game.  If you legit think it is then go play that instead of ruining warframe.  If you recognize that the game is crap, then you realize why long game play loops require unbalanced approaches and how that is a mandatory part of existence in the market.

There is a time for nerfs, but that time is almost never.  Usually you can solve nerfing something by simply buffing elsewhere.  Nerfs are only good for things that are so far off the spectrum they are legit game breaking in all environments, not just in comparison to the new player experience.

I am a veteran--I was here 3 years earlier than you--so drop your no true Scotsman fallacy, not all veterans support broken game mechanics in exchange for pointless loot grinding.

Many of us have been around for so long grinding and casually playing that mission rewards are a secondary cause, unless you're trying to decorate a Moon Clan where by absolutely broken standards all material requirements are multiplied by 100 because it is expected that all members contribute. If you're bothered by that the immediate self-solution is to downsize your clan tier because it clearly isn't active enough. I don't like DE's system of scaling dojo requirements so harshly to clan member capacity, but if that's your problem you can look up how to downgrade your clan tier.

You can't tell people they don't have the right to criticize a long-standing issue regarding the game, because they play it just as you do. Many of the people criticizing the lack of difficulty in the face of overextended player range through walls come from more difficult MMOs and team-based games where we actually had to work as a team in order to win the game. We don't care if someone's carrying, because we came to play the game and have fun too.

So you say these players should make their own squad, but that's not a solution either. Playing solo isn't efficient because fewer enemies spawn, and recruiting is too efficient because even if you set rules for your session people break those rules anyway because it is always more efficient to nuke through walls than play tactically for fun. There isn't much difficulty to be found except for waiting way too long in infinite missions, which isn't viable for busy professionals with congested lives that only allow an hour of gameplay on only some days.

As a veteran, the only people experiencing "endgame" adequately is the freshly new guy with an Mk-1 weapon kit who got taxi'd into a nightmare mode mission on a level 40+ Void node. We don't have adequate endgame yet because nuking through walls before the enemy can touch you is still the most effective strategy on a team even through infinite content. The developers had to resort to making Nullifiers, Nox, Juggernauts, Bursas, Combas, Energy Leeches, and now Arbitration-invincible enemies to make sure spamming abilities won't work all the time. Alas, all we do is spam anyway to kill the majority then spend a tiny bit of effort to kill the "stronger" enemy.

I'm a veteran and I've been sick of the lack of endgame, which is only an issue because we have a lack of challenge because we eliminate all challenge through radials. We not only need balance but actively seek it as an entire community. Let me explain.

It's a simple plan for most developers to release a game then build on it, but a common issue within this scenario is that player options are not balanced, as new content added can tip the scales, and content originally created wasn't tested for balance within the then/current/future meta-game. There are a lot of things a dev team would regret in making playable content too weak or too strong against player scenarios.

When player content is too weak buffing it is something everyone can agree with, but when content is too strong there's a lot of opposition from the players who either want to play the game with the content because it is more fun, or meta-gaming corruption from players who want more earned rewards. Agreements to fix overpowered content are built around consensus that it is not fun to have this content around, and we have adequate earning potential towards game rewards.

It varies by developer and game, but so far Warframe has wonderfully accessible content aside from a few outliers like Hema research. I would say we do not need or really want more powerful options. Some people say it is fun, but my observation is that a game without challenge or thrill is not fun. Once players are established in a game too well, the game ceases to be fun, thus the player either has to invent fun or quit the game until more potentially fun content arrives. If the player is too strong, all new content is quickly trivialized.

Balance around PvE and PvP are different, with the scale leaning towards PvE requiring more balance for sustainability of the game experience, while PvP adjusts balance through competitive meta evolution, but still requires balance because an overcentralized meta-game severely limits gameplay until significant fun through variety is lost.

A suggestion that sounds good is to create more challenging and fun content, but there are some outlier player options that are so strong they repeatedly remove excessive amounts of challenge from all new content, even when challenge is the sole goal of the added content. Overpowered content of this nature should be balanced to create an overall more fun and sustainable game.

Warframe is a very unique game that allows players to modify ability stats with amounts and versatility rarely seen in other games, thus creating unique problems for the rare situations in games that are more common in Warframe.

In Warframe we can modify abilities and melee weapons to have more range. This brings about balance issues when one player option creates synergies with other player options to an excessive degree.

For example, Overextended, which I call the nerf bringer. This mod has been the core reason for frame ability rebalances for years since it was released. Frames rebalanced around this mod include but are not limited to: Ash, Banshee, Ember, Excalibur, Mag, Mesa, Mirage, Nova, Nyx, Saryn, Trinity, Vauban, and Volt. For these mentioned frames throughout the years, a large-range radial ability has been altered (usually nerfed), although occasionally later the ability is buffed. This is usually the case when said frame has an ability that damages or stuns in a large area to the degree that it deletes or disables enemies long before they come close to players. This is the core cause of the Vivergate issues and trial attempts with line-of-sight range modification and improved enemy spawn algorithms. This is also the cause for defense and interception map reworks.

You can see this effect within the current standing meta-game. For radial area damage dealing competition amongst frames, there are Equinox, Mesa, Volt, and Saryn. Out of these 4 frames, 3 of them have their area-damage builds centralized around Overextended, while Mesa has an exceptionally large unmodifiable range but great damage and status potential. For buff and stun support we have Banshee and Octavia, with builds both centralized around Overextended for their usual build. For healers we have Harrow, Oberon, and Trinity. 2 of these frames have their range bound by affinity range rather than the ability range stat, and Oberon's healing support is unbound by range, while initiating his armor support requires teammates to stand on Hallowed Ground, which is increased by range stat, thus this becomes easier/better with this stat.

Overextended centralizes these builds by attracting players to use the mod for the "good builds." If you're not using this mod, your build just doesn't work so well for the same goal.

I would consider Overextended to be an item which overcentralizes builds, but I'm not satisfied with the usual end result of this issue in most Warframe circumstances. Rather than rebalance this one mod, the aforementioned long list of frames I mentioned had various tweaks to address their range, and future added frame abilities are built to avoid excessive range effect like Revenant's Danse Macabre.

Warframe is a unique game that creates unique problems, and as such in needs to create unique solutions.

As for speaking about the difference in power between new players and veterans playing the same mission, that's a progression issue, not a balance issue.

The balance issue appears when nearly all forms of gameplay meta-game are overcentralized around a particular player option, such that picking this one option is the one winning choice, all others aren't as good all-around even considering different scenarios. If you wish to think about World of Warcraft to explain this issue, consider the following 2 examples.

A level 100 player is playing within level 45 missions and is dominating due to the strength of their gear. That's a progression issue--there isn't sufficient content for that player to be exercising their power in.

A newly added class named the Deathknight (or anything, make up a name) is about the best overall class, dealing extremely high amounts of damage against multiple targets while also being very durable and fast, rising to become the best class with little or no competition. This is a balance problem: if you're not playing with this overpowered class, you're not making the best meta-game decision. Your teammates may feel overshadowed by the might of this class, and seeing this class in a squad would predispose you to think "they're going to be among the best performers," while seeing anyone not using this class for its role makes you think "this person is not going to be one of the best performers."

Thus, the best option is to create a rebalance. If one player option is overpowered compared to the rest in a game where the rest of the options are already capable enough against gameplay, it probably deserves a nerf. If one player option is stronger than the rest but the others are not sufficiently capable against content, they need a buff. It could even be a mix of both: the single stronger player option is still overpowered, but the game content you're fighting against is also overpowered, thus nerfs to both. In the end of this process the goal is that everyone's having fun and choice is a gift, not a curse.

Balance is something developers and players both want because balance is good. Balance is natural. When a game is unbalanced players dread logging in and developers turn in their sleep troubled over the one gameplay experience the players aren't enjoying to its fullest.

[(PSN)DARK_WIZARD999]

So sick of "new" players whining about frames. What, did your Mesa not get the highest kills? Nidus couldn't get enough stacks? Saryn shines in missions like defense that you're only doing to level stuff, so go solo if you want to get more kills. I build mine for a duration/strength build, mostly built around her molt ability. A re-generator of sorts. There's never a need for nerfs, just adjustments with enemies, like evasive maneuvers instead of running in and being fodder. They don't think like this though, they just want to winge and moan like they do for Overwatch. This isn't that game. This isn't a game where all characters do the same damage in any situation, and are really just different coats of paint. Some excel where others fall short. Don't like it, don't play pubs. They'll probably just puff up their cheeks and whine still though.

[(PSN)UltraKardas]

24 minutes ago, MechaKnight said:

I am a veteran--I was here 3 years earlier than you--so drop your no true Scotsman fallacy, not all veterans support broken game mechanics in exchange for pointless loot grinding.

-You sound like an elitist right out of the gate. Just so know.- You know that most of the complains would be fixed, if the amount of materials dropped from enemies scaled higher the level they were is? People would farm high level missions where mods like over-extended were designed for. Otherwise people will enjoy Nuke frames, for a multitude of reasons. Seeing everything die when you use her right, forma-ing her out. Warframe is a looter shooter first, akin to diablo. 

Have you farmed the Hema in clan research? Do you know... just how many mutagen you need if you have a larger clan? Even a meager clan size of 100 people, (20-30 being friends, or friends of friends. 100 clan size was the smallest would fit everyone) Made it take agonizingly long. Having no scaling requirements of clan dojos, would be counter intuitive, as bigger clans would get things much faster then everyone else, if you have that many people, and need a total of 50 of any rare resource.... 

 

29 minutes ago, MechaKnight said:

You can't tell people they don't have the right to criticize a long-standing issue regarding the game, because they play it just as you do. Many of the people criticizing the lack of difficulty in the face of overextended player range through walls come from more difficult MMOs and team-based games where we actually had to work as a team in order to win the game. We don't care if someone's carrying, because we came to play the game and have fun too.

If you didn't care people carrying, we wouldnt have this conversation. De has gone out of their way to not nerf over-extended. Instead, they have taken a different path. Adding more special missions where Over-extended has little, or lower impact. Open World Areas, raid bosses, and harder missions. Rail jack next, even adding more range mods. (If De felt that power range was a problem, why would they continue to add additional range options beyond Stretch, and Over-extended? Cunning Drift, and an Auger Mod I believe...) You can criticize the game all you want, but what you want to force upon other people does deserve to be limited. Raids, which were the most difficult content at the time, was hardly touched by the majority of the player base. Ignored. People didn't want harder content, even if Raids were lucrative. (I made so much plat from Raids. ) People didn't fight for harder or better designed raids, (even with Frames like Saryn being pointless in said raids.) 

A couple of other points you made, are incorrect. Trinity, and Nyx's nerf for example. Trinity had her damage reduction blessing nerfed, as well as Blessing losing it's infinite range. Nyx and her interaction with over-extended was never touched. Two Nyx's absorbing each other's damage to cheaply, and endlessly nuke every enemy around them was nerfed. (That's why Nyx's absorb does magnetic damage, and Absorb only collects like 10% of magnetic damage? As well as costing energy per damage absorbed to prevent this...)

 

39 minutes ago, MechaKnight said:

The balance issue appears when nearly all forms of gameplay meta-game are overcentralized around a particular player option, such that picking this one option is the one winning choice, all others aren't as good all-around even considering different scenarios. If you wish to think about World of Warcraft to explain this issue, consider the following 2 examples.

A level 100 player is playing within level 45 missions and is dominating due to the strength of their gear. That's a progression issue--there isn't sufficient content for that player to be exercising their power in.

A newly added class named the Deathknight (or anything, make up a name) is about the best overall class, dealing extremely high amounts of damage against multiple targets while also being very durable and fast, rising to become the best class with little or no competition. This is a balance problem: if you're not playing with this overpowered class, you're not making the best meta-game decision. Your teammates may feel overshadowed by the might of this class, and seeing this class in a squad would predispose you to think "they're going to be among the best performers," while seeing anyone not using this class for its role makes you think "this person is not going to be one of the best performers."

All casters in warframe have obvious downsides to them. Nyx, Nova, Ember, Mesa, Mirage, Saryn, Mag, Etc- Have lower armor then other frames around them. Casters are a well known stereotype, that deal more damage, but can't take as much damage. This is what makes Caster's balanced. I can copy and paste an earlier post where I went through different frames effective health. Every frame has a downside of some sort. The Nukers biggest weakness? Squish or be squished gameplay in later levels. 


 

[Klokwerkaos]

1 hour ago, MechaKnight said:

If you're bothered by that the immediate self-solution is to downsize your clan tier because it clearly isn't active enough.

Incorrect.  You don't grasp the mechanics of how this works at all.  Oversimplification and nonsense.

1 hour ago, MechaKnight said:

So you say these players should make their own squad, but that's not a solution either.

Say what now?  I do it.  Why can't they?  Too good for that I suppose.  

 

1 hour ago, MechaKnight said:

Thus, the best option is to create a rebalance. If one player option is overpowered compared to the rest in a game where the rest of the options are already capable enough against gameplay, it probably deserves a nerf. If one player option is stronger than the rest but the others are not sufficiently capable against content, they need a buff. It could even be a mix of both: the single stronger player option is still overpowered, but the game content you're fighting against is also overpowered, thus nerfs to both. In the end of this process the goal is that everyone's having fun and choice is a gift, not a curse.

And right here is where you miss the point.  Your idea of fun and my idea of fun can be completely opposites.  Your priorities and my priorities can be completely opposites.

Who then, is right?  Well of course, "I am" is the standard answer no matter who says it, so no, this is not a solution, this is YOUR solution and it literally goes against everything I would want in the game, and additionally, the read of the situation you include at the beginning is YOUR INTERPRETATION, not the fact of the matter.  The analogy doesn't hold.  It holds for a certain type of player, the type that cries about Saryn, or whatever the flavor of the week is.  It doesn't hold for everyone else.  Stop stating opinions as if they are facts, that doesn't fly.

1 hour ago, MechaKnight said:

Balance is something developers and players both want because balance is good. Balance is natural. When a game is unbalanced players dread logging in and developers turn in their sleep troubled over the one gameplay experience the players aren't enjoying to its fullest.

You really don't understand what total balance is, nor do you have any understanding of gray area.

I'm already bored of your rhetorical explanations, come back with something new or don't bother please and thank you.

[MechaKnight]

2 hours ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

-You sound like an elitist right out of the gate. Just so know.- You know that most of the complains would be fixed, if the amount of materials dropped from enemies scaled higher the level they were is? People would farm high level missions where mods like over-extended were designed for. Otherwise people will enjoy Nuke frames, for a multitude of reasons. Seeing everything die when you use her right, forma-ing her out. Warframe is a looter shooter first, akin to diablo. 

Have you farmed the Hema in clan research? Do you know... just how many mutagen you need if you have a larger clan? Even a meager clan size of 100 people, (20-30 being friends, or friends of friends. 100 clan size was the smallest would fit everyone) Made it take agonizingly long. Having no scaling requirements of clan dojos, would be counter intuitive, as bigger clans would get things much faster then everyone else, if you have that many people, and need a total of 50 of any rare resource....

I was talking to someone who claimed they were a veteran when they only played the game for a year, and said only new players want balance. I'm a veteran and I also want balance. To resolve your material issues, you ask for them to be solved directly, not supported by broken mechanics that harm the quality of gameplay and make the developers push more frame nerfs.

2 hours ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

If you didn't care people carrying, we wouldnt have this conversation. De has gone out of their way to not nerf over-extended. Instead, they have taken a different path. Adding more special missions where Over-extended has little, or lower impact. Open World Areas, raid bosses, and harder missions. Rail jack next, even adding more range mods. (If De felt that power range was a problem, why would they continue to add additional range options beyond Stretch, and Over-extended? Cunning Drift, and an Auger Mod I believe...) You can criticize the game all you want, but what you want to force upon other people does deserve to be limited. Raids, which were the most difficult content at the time, was hardly touched by the majority of the player base. Ignored. People didn't want harder content, even if Raids were lucrative. (I made so much plat from Raids. ) People didn't fight for harder or better designed raids, (even with Frames like Saryn being pointless in said raids.)

I am that person who accidentally carries teams, and I know from the constant complaint threads and DE's history of frame nerfs and anti-ability enemies, they don't like range. Notice how the new range mods are based around 30% range increments, not 45%, which is very telling that they don't like giving players much range. Raids were trivialized by radial spam, and if you recall playing the Jordas Verdict, you'd remember how useful frames like Ember and Saryn were during the 3-console room, elevator, and final boss phases for many groups.

2 hours ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

A couple of other points you made, are incorrect. Trinity, and Nyx's nerf for example. Trinity had her damage reduction blessing nerfed, as well as Blessing losing it's infinite range. Nyx and her interaction with over-extended was never touched. Two Nyx's absorbing each other's damage to cheaply, and endlessly nuke every enemy around them was nerfed. (That's why Nyx's absorb does magnetic damage, and Absorb only collects like 10% of magnetic damage? As well as costing energy per damage absorbed to prevent this...)
 

Blessing lose infinite range because having that much range is detrimental to the game. Nyx's synergy with Overextended was too strong since she didn't care for base damage when she could effectively triple her range and stack infinite damage across a partner Nyx, so DE got rid of infinite-damage nuking without penalty from Overextended. You have contradicted yourself--DE clearly doesn't want range in these examples.

2 hours ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

All casters in warframe have obvious downsides to them. Nyx, Nova, Ember, Mesa, Mirage, Saryn, Mag, Etc- Have lower armor then other frames around them. Casters are a well known stereotype, that deal more damage, but can't take as much damage. This is what makes Caster's balanced. I can copy and paste an earlier post where I went through different frames effective health. Every frame has a downside of some sort. The Nukers biggest weakness? Squish or be squished gameplay in later levels.

What downside? The enemies can barely get close before they die by being stunlocked and killed through walls. If you played the game for even a year you'd notice how rarely you take shield damage to the point where you lose any health at all. The downside is irrelevant when the only risk is nullified by an easily-afforded ability.

56 minutes ago, Klokwerkaos said:

Incorrect.  You don't grasp the mechanics of how this works at all.  Oversimplification and nonsense.

You may as well say that to yourself then downsize your clan like my other alliance partners have done in the past. If you can't keep your clan adequately active you need only remove those members from your first clan until the member count is low enough to fit into the next lowest tier, then destroy the barracks and contact support.

56 minutes ago, Klokwerkaos said:

Say what now?  I do it.  Why can't they?  Too good for that I suppose. 

It's because random matchmaking is just that--random. It's for ease of access to squads to get the gameplay done and have fun without organizing a team first. Recruiting doesn't work because it's too slow, too laborious, you can't remove people who lie about what they're bringing when they join your squad, you have to instruct them exactly how you want them to play and what they bring ,and in the end you'll be dissatisfied when they purposely disobeyed every squad requirement you set. Matchmaking is faster but random. Telling people who encounter frequent problems in matchmaking to make their own squad isn't justified when the complaining portion of the playerbase is too large. There are reasons why Limbo was reworked to his current state, back when he was first released many people wanted to avoid that frame but alas, they could not. People still ask for some frames to be nerfed, and when the portion of people is large enough, it does show that a significant portion of the community is dissatisfied with something. To ignore them is to be like EA and neglect your playerbase on purpose. That's why nerfs and reworks happen--because the entire community is involved. Players ask for change, the developers grant it. We all inherently work towards balance.

56 minutes ago, Klokwerkaos said:

And right here is where you miss the point.  Your idea of fun and my idea of fun can be completely opposites.  Your priorities and my priorities can be completely opposites.

Who then, is right?  Well of course, "I am" is the standard answer no matter who says it, so no, this is not a solution, this is YOUR solution and it literally goes against everything I would want in the game, and additionally, the read of the situation you include at the beginning is YOUR INTERPRETATION, not the fact of the matter.  The analogy doesn't hold.  It holds for a certain type of player, the type that cries about Saryn, or whatever the flavor of the week is.  It doesn't hold for everyone else.  Stop stating opinions as if they are facts, that doesn't fly.

You used all those words to say "I disagree, both of our opinions are just that--opinions--and opinions are subjective." We can agree to disagree. I know for a fact though that when a significant portion of players complain, change happens. Saryn has already been nerfed a few times, may be nerfed again, then some more frames will be nerfed like what usually happens in this ongoing cruel cycle of frame nerfs. Lets stop the cycle and find a permanent solution to abiltiy range abuse, because the current developer path is to nerf frames or create anti-ability mechanics.

While I'm at it, lets address anti-ability enemies and entities in order.

• Energy Leech Eximus. Steals player energy.
• Doors with disruptors: inflicts magnetic procs, which remove player energy.
• The Nullifier. He creates an aura which disables abilities in its vicinity, and has capped damage intake so it would not be broken by single strong shots, but faster shots.
• The Bursa is a heavily durable enemy created to tank frontal damage, and is generally durable all-around so it effectively resists ability damage simply by resisting any damage. Some variants lob nullifying grenades that nullify abilities. Their damage output is strong.
• The Comba and Scrambus have helmets which disable abilities in a variety of ways. They are given powerful weapons in order to destroy frames--hopefully the frames that are best at using radial powers are also the weakest ones, so this enemy hopes.
• The Juggernaut takes extremely little damage except for its weak points, which are nearly impossible to target with an ability. Thus, you use your weapons on it instead.
• The Nox is designed to take less damage from any point except its head. Most abilities target the torso instead of the head, thus this enemy resists damage from most abilities.
• Plains of Eidolon night water: inflicts mag proc, removes energy.
• Eidolons. Radial blast inflicts magnetic proc, removes energy.

The game has shaped up to resist abilities due to our relentless radial spam. When the developers failed to succeed in pushing line-of-sight, this was the alternative to engage players more.

I haven't even talked about current and future sentient enemies, which are surely designed to resist all kinds of strategies based around abilities and damage type status effects.

56 minutes ago, Klokwerkaos said:

You really don't understand what total balance is, nor do you have any understanding of gray area.

I'm already bored of your rhetorical explanations, come back with something new or don't bother please and thank you.

I do understand what balance is as far as I've played many games, run guilds, organized 20/40 man raids, grinded my ass off in grossly terribly game economies, and played games that were a variety of qualities from exceptional to disgustingly shallow. I know that letting gameplay degrade to the point where it is too trivial harms the replay value of the game. Challenging content could only work as long as it can bring challenge, but not when it is trivialized by the same overpowered metagames that trivialized every other attempt at challenge the developers ever pushed towards us. Years ago, the solution was spam stun and damage radials. Today, the solution is to spam stun and damage radials. The years have passed and challenges were released, but the solution is always the same. Arbitrations is the first peek to see how far DE will push invulnerability conditions to prevent radial abilities from being effective.

56 minutes ago, Klokwerkaos said:

I'm already bored of your rhetorical explanations, come back with something new or don't bother please and thank you.

You speak like an elitist, telling people to go away when you don't agree with their opinion. How pathetic. You should revisit my previous post, you could've learned much from it had you understood and reflected back on the game over the years. Oh wait, you only started playing last year.

I recommend both of you to read my previous post more carefully. Take a moment to reflect back on the games across the years.

Resource grind or broken balance is a big part of why people play games. Warframe is generous for most material requirements, but there's still some to be fixed. The gameplay stagnation is the current biggest issue. Line-of-sight is a range fix that doesn't touch any mod magnitudes but reduces the occurences of players nuking enemies through walls. It's a big win across the majority of players.

Edited November 30, 2018 by MechaKnight

[LAD.Y]

On 2018-11-25 at 9:22 AM, WhiteMarker said:

This has nothing to do with being a Veteran or a new player.
This has to do with simply understanding basic stuff. You are joining public matches, you are joining random groups.
It's just obvious that you will get paired with someone playing a nuke. It's just about chances...

If you don't like that playstyle, just make your own custom groups without nukes. It's that easy.
And then try to effectively do missions against level 100+ enemies.
Sure, weapons can kill these enemies aswell. But missions take way more time this way. And stuff like Survival becomes unplayable, because your kill-speed just drops at one point or another.
If this is fun for you, power to you. As I said, play solo or with a custom group.

You don't like the nuke-playstyle. Nukes may don't like your "boring" playstyle. Accept the fact that everyone has their own way of playing. Don't try to force your way on to others.

This is what I was going to say. I'm just going to use Onslaught as the example, and sort of extrapolate the point since the OP mentioned it. If you're having a problem with high level 'nukers' in onslaught. A mission I might add that is ALL about efficiency to maximize it's return....don't play pubs. I hardly ever play public matches, mostly cause i am a limbo player and the community generally hate(d i'll be optimstic and put that in the past tense) his existence so i just learned to do everything by myself to avoid being flamed. ANYWAY the point is, just custom match (or solo). You said you started with some friends, so if that's the case just build squads that don't use those frames. I have a friend who ONLY plays melee and while I get the frustration, like if I'm Mesa he's.... really not getting kills unless, I'm actively not using my abilities or he runs off somewhere else. He doesn't complain about it though. He knows it's his choice to play how he does, just like it's my choice and prerogative to be able to play the frames I want in a given mission. The beauty of warframe is that there is no frame that's TRULY unplayable, will others have an easier time of it? Sure. But that doesn't mean you can't use a frame that's generally considered low-tier and not succeed. Just look for people/groups that fit your playstyle better

[(PSN)purpleskullgamin]

I can only assume OP is a nidus main who's really just salty about not being able to get stacks.

[Klokwerkaos]

28 minutes ago, (PS4)purpleskullgamin said:

I can only assume OP is a nidus main who's really just salty about not being able to get stacks.

If you build your nidus right you don't need stacks.  Nidus main, stopped using stacks long ago.  

Late game nidus is about building a meat wall, and maybe CC sometimes in a pinch, but the stacks thing becomes inefficient unless you put together a pre made for long term arbitration (over an hour), otherwise it's a waste of time.  Otherwise it's easier just to one shot everything in your way with a myriad of aoe room clearing weapons, which consequently, can be used by any frame making this whole debate pointless, again... and again... and again...

[Crusader1]

On 2018-11-25 at 12:28 PM, Tsoe said:

BUFF VAUBAN plz

Speaking of the man i need him 🙂

[(XBOX)Knight Raime]

21 hours ago, W3zeer said:

Dude, you should stop playing word games of this length, noone is going to read that. It's no shame in having a different opinion than your opponent but what you do is systematically trying to ignore everything he writes and hammer on perceived mistakes in argumentational style. In the end that makes you look pedantic. This is an exchange of opinions no facts are being established. Also all this arguing of what frame is best in very high level environments is done in a threat about clearing low level maps, way missing the point.

In the end, reaching high level enemies in warframe is no show of skill but only endurance. Chose one of several easy to follow strategies and you can't fail. It's great AoE makes you feel powerful and all, but maybe you should think of the other 3 players in your squad. If you're able to delete everything to shoot at before they get a chance to see it, those 3 will feel the opposite of powerful, i.e. useless. Usually I play games to enjoy the gameplay, not to look at end of mission screens, but hey that's just me. If the majority wants to play a pickup simulator, who am I to criticize thise? I'm only writing because maybe enough ppl are feeling that way that player satisfaction might take a significant hit if enough players are feeling that way and decide spending their time elsewhere when they get nothing else to do than spam a single button 90% of the time. In that case the devs should know about it and they might decide to change a few things. And since lots of those tactics have been adressed in the past it might seem the devs do somewhat agree with that thought.

Actually I read the back and forth between them.  Buttface is the one that's being incredibly dismissive about anything ultra posts.  Seemingly going out of his way to ignore anything Ultra gives as proof to debunk the claims made by buttface.  You can slam Ultra for having lengthy/wordy posts and the fact that their overall discussion has boarderline gone off the main topic to debate other things than the current point at hand.  But then Buttface is just as liable as Ultra is.I don't see why you're mentioning skill here.  I believe Buttface was the person who first brought it up in their argument and Ultra was the one claiming there really isn't skill in WF (outside pvp) and there never has been any skillful/tactical play in WF. 

"but maybe you should think of the other 3 players in your squad."  Unless you're some how griefing the only thought that needs to be put forth when pubbing is to revive people when they go down or if there is some way you can interact with the person in a unique way.  Like Nidus using link on someone who'd greatly benefit from it.  or noticing a nova in your squad and try to combo with their slowva with your fracturing crush.  People join pubs because they're fast, easy, yield the best amount for resources, and can be potentially carried.  If you join a pub for any of those reasons then you have no right to complain about who you're teamed up with unless they're griefing or doing something outside the games bounds.  If you care about having a specific experience when you game then you play solo or with a pre made squad.  That's what those options exist for.

"Usually I play games to enjoy the gameplay."  Passive aggressive comment that doesn't belong.  Not to mention fun is subjective.  Warframe is a game of numbers and efficiency.  The side effect from this is the power trip fantasy that players can make possible with modding frames and weapons and combinations of the two.  If you're not getting that as often as you'd like then go to a situation you can control.  which is solo/pre built squad.  I am a person who very much likes playing melee and frames that boost melee potential.  For the longest time my frame of choice was Valkyr.  I ran into plenty of games because I couldn't play her in a group of casters.  What did I do?  I stopped playing her in endurance based missions.  I play her in things like capture or defection etc.  Or if I really wanted to endurance with her i'd go solo.

At best the only reasonable excuse you can make about being forced into pubs is based around the argument of spawns.  In solo spawns are smaller.  So resource gain is not efficient.  So why are things the way they are?  for balancing purposes.  If solo was efficient people wouldn't play together.  The only way to have cooperation is to force it.  That being said Warframe isn't a game that's built around a squad.  If this were indeed a thing then frames would actually synergize a lot more often.  Instead they often don't or just dwarf another frame entirely.  I'm betting they didn't go that route because kits might feel incomplete without specific frames by their side.  And as I already said this game is really just a grind game.  So that's what everything is balanced around.  You can play how you want to play.  But it might not be the most efficient.  Or you can give up some control on how you play.  And you get things done faster.  These are your options.  Pick one.  If you don't want to then don't play.  Game isn't for you.

 

Finally the game has far and beyond moved passed press 4 to win.  Saryn in this case is being far over simplified.  And that's really just because OP doesn't understand her.  And it doesn't help that you have other players coming in and giving this person a false sense of right just because they're salty players that don't like the game's base truths.  So they rally behind the ignorant individual.  I'm not going to sit here and lie to your face saying I enjoy being carried.  I don't.  But sometimes i'd rather get stuff done.  If I want to play a specific way I have that option.  And people acting like solo/squad making is unreasonable when it's really not.  They just want their cake and be able to eat it too.  They're the unreasonable ones.