Marakai

As a new player I am little tired of "dumb" gameplay mechanics like Saryn - press 4 to kill map...

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13 hours ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

There's so much wrong with what you just said. #1 Draco was a thing. Where an Excalibur nuked the entire map, so everyone got standing quickly. Then old Volt could clear entire missions with his first iteration of his ultimate. There was also EGate where a banshee would endlessly kill low level missions so people go a tremendous amount of credits, Fusion cores, and mods. There was AoE back then. You just missed it. The only thing that should be done, is add the matchmaking option to player with people around your level. Many newbs depend on vets to help them through certain missions. I've seen spy missions that newbs just sit at the door and defend it while I hack everything for them. *Yawn* Won't effect me, but will effect the newbs still trying to learn the ropes. I have brought many people into Warframe, and without somebody to guide them, they wouldn't have given it a second chance. (They picked it up once, before.) 

#2 I don't really see anybody in here saying "I can AoE cheese, look at me. I'm so good." No. Nobody is saying that. Take your straw man argument somewhere else. AoE has its place in the game, and it's not going anywhere. This game is a horde shooter just fyi. The point of the game is to kill large number of enemies... If not Saryn, then Mesa/Equinox/Banshee/Volt/Excalibur/Mag/Octavia/Any frame with a 20 meter AoE ultimate. If not them, then Chroma/Mirage/Banshee with an amprex/simuloid/atomos. I went into an arbitration as Saryn. Went to about wave 25 with my team, before something hit me and I was obliterated. The rest of the people wanted to try to get to 30, to see if they could get that last reward. One was a Rhino, the other was a frost I believe. They had no issue surviving, yet they couldn't kill fast enough to save the defense target. Saryn is balanced by being a squishy caster. Her AoE is a quality of life change to people who want to do a low level mission or quickly farm mats, (Like Polymer bundles that most people burn through later in late game. Polymer Bundles that also only come from low level planets... The highest being level 23 on Uranus.) I really look forward to being competely locked out of farming Polymer Bundles, by your terrible, atrocious idea. Get a clue.

Come up with a better argument. (Also, Tv has no interaction other then watching.... Saryn you have to press spores, spread spores, then Miasma....  Even if you are half aft in ESO, you still have to move to the next room. A logical fallacy on your part.

Wasn't talking about leveling or farming tiles like Hydron and Draco, so there goes straw man the first. Didn't "miss" anything three years ago, I used Volt and old Ash on Draco all the time, no problemo, not the issue OP is describing. Do you really not know the difference between the relatively few designated popular farming tiles and the rest? or are you just being obtuse? Mostly I'm talking about general mission running where tryhards bring max range aoe for "muhkillz" on things that would have died near instantly to weapons anyway. Newer players need to get a consistent feeling of participation even if they don't kill much. Insecure tryhards who bring max range Equinox (or X spam frame power) to level 8 missions spoil this outright and are far too common in status quo WF.

The difference between then and now, though, is lots of range, power str, energy management, duration etc. power creep that flat out didn't exist then. You had to be at least a little attentive to do aoe map clear, now not so much.

Spy mission talk is anecdotal and irrelevant to OP's (and my) gripes.

Oh, yeah, tons of tryhards do most certainly "give up" on learning actual moving and tactical play to get legitimately skilled at the game in favor of OP AOE button mashing and do regularly gloat about their damage % from this type of nonplay. See it all the time. No idea what game you are playing.

No, the point of this game, as in all shooter type games, is to have fun. In some game modes with organized teams that means AOE spam, but far more frequent are tryhards ruining lower level play in PUGs and driving newer players OUT of WF due to boredom and annoyance.

Saryn is one of the top ten tank frames in the game. If "squishy" in the least, it isn't built correctly, especially with some of the newer mods. Typical Saryn gameplay is about as interactive as watching someone make a ham sandwich, especially obnoxious when tryhards bring it in low level stuff and spam 4, leaving loot all over the map and causing lots of mob bugging on certain enemy mixes in later waves. Saryn should not be a top tier tank, AOE frame and melee frame in one package, yet it is. OP as a matter of fact and not opinion... or are all the complaints just whining? I think not.

BTW, Protip, Fortuna is the new polymer bundle farm. You're welcome, farmed toroids this past weekend and will never need polymer again, can spam pizzas til the cows come home. Wasn't talking about higher level starchart like Uranus, but the starter planets, Earth, Mercury, Venus for example. Those, or at least 1-2 planets, need to be newb areas IMO with all AOE spam turned off so that new players learn to play the game better than they do now.

The skill level of the player base in WF has never been worse and that's due to all the power creep of AOE available too early. In better games, learning entails things like aiming, environmental awareness, teamplay, tactical considerations, weapon building. WF throws all that out the window once someone can either farm or buy one of the AOE spam frames... player competence comes to a full stop at that moment for way too many players. Others get bored of the ease.

WF has always been a very easy game. Good, that's not what I'm complaining about. Mostly it's mixing higher and lower level players on lower planets that ends up boring and no fun for anyone. Even the tryhards that do it aren't really having fun. 

Edited by Buttaface
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28 minutes ago, Buttaface said:

Wasn't talking about leveling or farming tiles like Hydron and Draco, so there goes straw man the first. Didn't "miss" anything three years ago, I used Volt and old Ash on Draco all the time, no problemo, not the issue OP is describing. Do you really not know the difference between the relatively few designated popular farming tiles and the rest? or are you just being obtuse? Mostly I'm talking about general mission running where tryhards bring max range aoe for "muhkillz" on things that would have died near instantly to weapons anyway. Newer players need to get a consistent feeling of participation even if they don't kill much. Insecure tryhards who bring max range Equinox (or X spam frame power) to level 8 missions spoil this outright and are far too common in status quo WF.

The difference between then and now, though, is lots of range, power str, energy management, duration etc. power creep that flat out didn't exist then. You had to be at least a little attentive to do aoe map clear, now not so much.

Spy mission talk is anecdotal and irrelevant to OP's (and my) gripes.

Oh, yeah, tons of tryhards do most certainly "give up" on learning actual moving and tactical play to get legitimately skilled at the game in favor of OP AOE button mashing and do regularly gloat about their damage % from this type of nonplay. See it all the time. No idea what game you are playing.

No, the point of this game, as in all shooter type games, is to have fun. In some game modes with organized teams that means AOE spam, but far more frequent are tryhards ruining lower level play in PUGs and driving newer players OUT of WF due to boredom and annoyance.

Saryn is one of the top ten tank frames in the game. If "squishy" in the least, it isn't built correctly, especially with some of the newer mods. Typical Saryn gameplay is about as interactive as watching someone make a ham sandwich, especially obnoxious when tryhards bring it in low level stuff and spam 4, leaving loot all over the map and causing lots of mob bugging on certain enemy mixes in later waves. Saryn should not be a top tier tank, AOE frame and melee frame in one package, yet it is. OP as a matter of fact and not opinion... or are all the complaints just whining? I think not.

BTW, Protip, Fortuna is the new polymer bundle farm. You're welcome, farmed toroids this past weekend and will never need polymer again, can spam pizzas til the cows come home. Wasn't talking about higher level starchart like Uranus, but the starter planets, Earth, Mercury, Venus for example. Those, or at least 1-2 planets, need to be newb areas IMO with all AOE spam turned off so that new players learn to play the game better than they do now.

The skill level of the player base in WF has never been worse and that's due to all the power creep of AOE available too early. In better games, learning entails things like aiming, environmental awareness, teamplay, tactical considerations, weapon building. WF throws all that out the window once someone can either farm or buy one of the AOE spam frames... player competence comes to a full stop at that moment for way too many players. Others get bored of the ease.

WF has always been a very easy game. Good, that's not what I'm complaining about. Mostly it's mixing higher and lower level players on lower planets that ends up boring and no fun for anyone. Even the tryhards that do it aren't really having fun. 

If you admitted that the game is easy. Why complain about aoe frames. Playing solo after a while. Its nice to have my gear level up with ease in eso online. Also there are people that like saryn, mesa, and my favorite equinox, who does MORE THEN NUKING. i use her night side for the most part in public play if i go healer. Relax mate, its only a game.

Edited by moostar95
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12 minutes ago, moostar95 said:

If you admitted that the game is easy. Why complain about aoe frames. Playing solo after a while. Its nice to have my gear level up with ease in eso online. Also there are people that like saryn, mesa, and my favorite equinox, who does MORE THEN NUKING. i use her night side for the most part in public play if i go healer. Relax mate, its only a game.

Sorry, but you didn't address the points in my post, literally none of them. Thanks for the block quote though, maybe get more attention to this obvious flaw in WF compared to other games. All games are easy after awhile. The best among them manage to not be completely boring at the same time. WF is not there.

And also spare the "relax" stuff, it's unnecessary, inaccurate and needlessly condescending.

Edited by Buttaface
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4 hours ago, Buttaface said:

Wasn't talking about leveling or farming tiles like Hydron and Draco, so there goes straw man the first.

Nope. You just contradicting yourself. (You also don't know what a Straw Man is) You said that players need to be locked out of planets. Ceres is a planet from 12-25, which is a low level planet. Excalibur, and many frames like him were extremely common for being able to nuke the whole map. Draco was famous for it, and I'm pointing out that dozens of other frames are capable of trivializing low game content; Like Excalibur in Draco, or Mesa, or Equinox, the list goes on. This means, that if Saryn gets nerfed into Ember levels of useless, that your solution doesn't fix any thing. You reduces the options people have in the game, and that does nothing to solve the problem or make the game fun. If Saryn can't fit that role any more, people will pick one of the dozen others that can be modded for the same roll. Any frame with a 20 meter ultimate would suffice. 
 

20 hours ago, Buttaface said:

Once someone has left one of the newb planets, they can't get back unless they are solo or in a full invited team with no chance of getting a pug in the team or somesuch limits.

This is your exact quote. Forcing people to solo certain missions types, like interception (specifically the aforementioned Draco) is not fun. You either force that Solo player into nuking exclusively just so they can stop other enemies around the map from capturing points, or going into a full CC frame, that can no longer farm mats, or mods as efficiently from the high enemy spawn counts. This is why your proposition, is a terrible horrendous idea. By Segregating the player base, you encourage more players to use nuke frames just so that they can farm at a decent rate. This goes against the very idea of Public Matchmaking. (Shared, universal matchmaking where anyone can be matched up with anyone.) You can advocate the option of more matchmaking options, however this is the limit of your suggestion. 
 

4 hours ago, Buttaface said:

Didn't "miss" anything three years ago, I used Volt and old Ash on Draco all the time, no problemo, not the issue OP is describing. 

Was referring to old volt, who's discharge would daisy chain through the entire map, killing every enemy in the tile set. Ash was also nefarious nuker who people complained about for being functionally like Saryn. So... hypocritical argument is hypocritical. You may not have used Ash in the same fashion, but he was more then capable of dispatching enemies just the same. This very much the issue the OP is describing. I will post it for you.

On 2018-11-25 at 10:13 AM, Marakai said:

I know vets who play level 200+ enemies may see her different  but as a fairy new player I am really tired of just baby sitting next to Saryns who just press 2 keys and I just see Affinity numbers pop out around map. 99% of Saryns just stand in middle of map and spam one-two abillity. 

So let's break down the OP's statement shall we? "I am really tired of just baby sitting next to Saryn's who just press 2 keys and I just see Affinity numbers pop out around the map." This means that they are in a mission, with very little movement. Otherwise they wouldn't just be sitting next to Saryn. No movement, or other objective then killing enemies in mass. This precisely describes Draco which was a farming mission, or Hydron which farmed EXP for weapons. 
 

4 hours ago, Buttaface said:

Do you really not know the difference between the relatively few designated popular farming tiles and the rest?

Nobody complains about Saryn on anything else but the popular farming missions. When was the last time, you complained that a Saryn was nuking away in a deception mission? Or that she kept nuking a hijack mission, while you escort a Formorian Power core? Your argument literally makes no sense, as Saryn is most used as a farming frame. 
 

4 hours ago, Buttaface said:

 Mostly I'm talking about general mission running where tryhards bring max range aoe for "muhkillz" on things that would have died near instantly to weapons anyway. 

The only person who is talking about try hards is you. Which leads me to believe you are this type of person. If enemies die "near instantly" regardless, then newbs who don't want vets in their public matches, can play those missions solo. Returning back to public missions, (where anyone can play together) once the mission is complete. Their weapons should be more then capable, for the task. 
 

5 hours ago, Buttaface said:

The difference between then and now, though, is lots of range, power str, energy management, duration etc. power creep that flat out didn't exist then. You had to be at least a little attentive to do aoe map clear, now not so much.

Nope. Corrupted mods came out around October 2013. Those alone gave people the range and capability to nuke entire maps. After that, you had enough range with Stretch, and OverExtended. See Old Draco videos for details. Frames have certainly gotten more powerful, with mods following suit; but frames with large range have been commonplace. Example, Old Nova who had Molecular Prime based around Range mods. People treasure Arcane Helmets like Loki's just cause the boost in range. (As well as other Arcanes that also made other frames more powerful. Like Saryn's old Arcane helm that made her stronger too). 
 

5 hours ago, Buttaface said:

Spy mission talk is anecdotal and irrelevant to OP's (and my) gripes.

Oh, yeah, tons of tryhards do most certainly "give up" on learning actual moving and tactical play to get legitimately skilled at the game in favor of OP AOE button mashing and do regularly gloat about their damage % from this type of nonplay. See it all the time. No idea what game you are playing.

Spy mission talk disproves your argument, so with no counter point you ignore it. OP's argument doesn't touch upon Spy missions, as you can't sit around for a Spy mission and be baby sitting a Saryn unless they, and you are ignoring the objective. 

Most "Tryhards" do the exact opposite of what you suggest. They get technical at the game, in order to get good. Either during the pursuit of higher end content to complete raids, raid bosses, or any content where Saryn has no effect on the missions' outcome. (Spy missions, Sabotage, etc-) Then switch to Saryn for ease of use. 
Want proof? ~Click here for proof~. You'll notice that frames that can do wider damage, get more use the higher Mr you go. Mag, and Saryn being used pretty infrequently at Hunter rank 11 (Despite Mag being a starter frame). Then both of them jump the higher you go in Mastery Rank. 
 

5 hours ago, Buttaface said:

No, the point of this game, as in all shooter type games, is to have fun. In some game modes with organized teams that means AOE spam, but far more frequent are tryhards ruining lower level play in PUGs and driving newer players OUT of WF due to boredom and annoyance.

Fun is a subjective experience that is not shared by everyone. Some people like collecting every weapon in warframe, and raising in Mastery. Other people enjoy PvP, (Really enjoying my 3.5 KDA with 9,000 kills) I love Warframe, I despise collecting ever weapon as it's a chore to me. I'm only interested in certain weapons. On the flip side, I am in the vast minority of players on Console that enjoys PvP. (That's fine. I love my PvP exclusive Syndana.) 

Warframe is a horde shooter, and looter. The gameplay loop revolves around killing things, so you can craft an item or warframe, then killing more things to make it more powerful by leveling it, getting stronger mods, then using it to kill bigger things to get more loot. That's why there's a very linear path of progression, till you hit Mastery Rank 13, and have access to the strongest weapons and gear. The point of the game is to kill thousands of enemies, and loot. Hence, enormous drop tables, with each individual enemy dropping several different mods, missions dropping a wide variety of loot, and planets having different resources. Most of what you say is grossly incorrect. I would love to see your proof for these claims. As I have been in a large storm clan since Wars around Dark Sectors were a thing. I have noticed a common pattern of mentoring players. All of them get bored, till you give them a taste of power. Simply going Volt Prime with 300% power strength was enough to shatter their boredom. Some players adored Saryn, while other players preferred even stronger scaling, like Nidus. Others swore by Ash, and Covert Lethality. People have different definitions of fun, and your definition is only applicable to you. You are Daft, if you think you have the only true definition of fun.
 

5 hours ago, Buttaface said:

Saryn is one of the top ten tank frames in the game. If "squishy" in the least, it isn't built correctly, especially with some of the newer mods. Typical Saryn gameplay is about as interactive as watching someone make a ham sandwich, especially obnoxious when tryhards bring it in low level stuff and spam 4, leaving loot all over the map and causing lots of mob bugging on certain enemy mixes in later waves. Saryn should not be a top tier tank, AOE frame and melee frame in one package, yet it is. OP as a matter of fact and not opinion... or are all the complaints just whining? I think not.

So this is a clear indication you absolutely have no clue what you are talking about. Tank frames in Warframe are built around high armor, high health and damage reduction defensive abilities. Nidus is the strongest tank frame in the game bar none. 90% damage reduction from parasitic link, with a passive heal on his ultimate. That's even before addressing his passive ability. Chroma, and Inaros are next. Just for the insane armor and health combo that Chroma can reach, as well as Inaros' insane amount of health, as well as doubling his armor, and being invulnerable while healing himself (Not to mention his passive). Valkyr is next. Warcry giving her 80% Damage reduction easily, with Hysteria giving her temporary immortality. Nekros with his shadows of the dead, and Nyx with Assimilation make them incredibly tanky. Honorable mention to Wukong's Defy. That's before adding Rhino with his Iron Skin to the mix. Gara can put other frames to shame, and a good Trinity can be close to unkillable while healing herself and giving two different instances of damage reduction with Link, and Blessing. 

Saryn has high armor for a caster, and get's addition damage reduction for blocking. However, every other frame listed above, can block with their melee weapon, and be almost infinitely more tanky. She isn't anything close to being a "tank". Nezha, does a better job at this then her. You really have no idea what you are talking about in the slightest. 

I only see people complaining about her in the same context they complain about everything. She's the New Mirage and Synoid Sim needs NERF target. People would rather complain, then get good. Considering how inaccurate you are, I have no reason to believe you here, if anywhere.

5 hours ago, Buttaface said:

The skill level of the player base in WF has never been worse and that's due to all the power creep of AOE available too early. In better games, learning entails things like aiming, environmental awareness, teamplay, tactical considerations, weapon building. WF throws all that out the window once someone can either farm or buy one of the AOE spam frames... player competence comes to a full stop at that moment for way too many players. Others get bored of the ease.

Is that so? What do you have to base this off of? Cause just fyi. Warframe was never a game about skill. If that's how you feel, you should go test your "Skill" in the only skill based game mode. PvP.  Environmental Awareness? Teamplay? Nothing in warframe remotely resembles this. Raids were based completely off of overlapping crowd control, and a healer while you navigated the mission's gimmick, or explored the depths of Jordas to hit that nerve. Meanwhile my "team comp" of Solo as Nidus can get further in a survival of most team comps. Shrugging off hits by level 600 enemies, and healing the damage passively, in 6 seconds. 

Hate to break it to you, Tryhard. Warframe has never had skill. Making a strong composition, requires nothing more then googling builds in warframe builder and is nothing unique. Killing level 9,999 enemies doesn't take skill. It takes a smart setup. A single Viral proc will do more damage to that enemy then all the skill in the world could. You sound more and more like those try hards you complain about. 

The answer to this problem? Go fight tougher enemies. Stop fighting low level fodder in the solar system, and fight something worth killing. Arbitration is the most fun I have ever had, and that's cause +300% power strength is amazing. 600% Speed volt, and nothing will ever seem fast to you again. 
 

6 hours ago, Buttaface said:

WF has always been a very easy game. Good, that's not what I'm complaining about. Mostly it's mixing higher and lower level players on lower planets that ends up boring and no fun for anyone. Even the tryhards that do it aren't really having fun. 

Shocker, it's a PvE game. Even then, Warframe acts like an MMO when it comes to power scaling. Low level missions aren't meant to be engaging to anyone but the newbs fresh off the tutorial. The entire solar system is a breeze you can complete with a half modded karak. 

If you really want to solve the problem? Make high level missions, that have rewards that scale to the level of enemies. Giving massive amounts of planet materials, akin to the enemies level. You'll find out that gathering more mats, more quickly, with harder enemies will rapidly become the new farm location. 


 

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1 hour ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

...
 

1. Clarified my "low level planet" point, what, twice now? You are continuing to ignore that and posture against something I never posted. Guess what that's called? Have also posted that there is LOTS of AOE that needs nerfing, not just Saryn. Ignoring that and continuing on with the "lots of frames can bladebla" is something called a "red herring." Red herring continues in the "solo interception" as I clearly posted that teams could be pure invite only. OR just remove non soloable content from lower level planets.

2. That old Volt could "kill every enemy on the map" is a lie, and more of the same red herring stuff. In addition, farming lower level maps with weapons is easy and slightly more engaging. Semi AFK spam teams are not necessary to gather any amount of any resources in WF.

3. I, and presumably OP, are indeed complaining about Saryn and other AOE spam on non farming tiles... right here in the written record of the thread, so there goes that.

4. Your doubling down on the Spy missions is MORE red herring. Completely irrelevant to the discussion and pure anecdote to boot.

5. You are welcome to your opinion about tryhard players and what they do. The -fact- is that missions that do not require such are crammed full of AOE spamming frames that ruin the experience for lower players seeking to be engaged in a game as opposed to watching a rather boring show while not participating. Your "proof" is just another type of fallacy, a non sequitur.

6. To restate, it is perfectly easy to kill plenty of mobs to farm any content and get any resources using less AOE spammy frames and weapons while being more engaged in the game. If players want to cheese that kind of play, fine. It should be sequestered from early planets... such as Earth, Mercury and Venus (to avoid Uranus variety of red herring).

7. I don't know what I'm talking about? No, that's you. See how easy and empty that is? Please do continue though, it's funny.

8. Being an easier game does not preclude WF from training newer players to play more skillfully than they do, which would be better and more engaging than AOE spam. That the average skill level of players now versus in the past is a sewer is a fact. PvP is just more red herring, not surprised.

9. Arbitration and higher enemy argument? MORE red herring. My complaints about AOE spam are specific to lower level players in earlier maps. I'd LOVE to see it curbed in other missions too, probably won't happen so not realistic feedback, and no, I'm not going to play a single match for more than 40 minutes to get a challenge. Did that in the past, the challenge wasn't there. Were AOE curtailed in a -few- game modes, challenge could begin from the get-go.

10. That the "entire solar system" is a breeze one can complete with a half-modded Karak is yet another lie. Why lie?

 

Edited by Buttaface
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1 hour ago, Buttaface said:

1. Clarified my "low level planet" point, what, twice now? You are continuing to ignore that and posture against something I never posted. Guess what that's called? Have also posted that there is LOTS of AOE that needs nerfing, not just Saryn. Ignoring that and continuing on with the "lots of frames can bladebla" is something called a "red herring." Red herring continues in the "solo interception" as I clearly posted that teams could be pure invite only. OR just remove non soloable content from lower level planets.8. Being an easier game does not preclude WF from training newer players to play more skillfully than they do, which would be better and more engaging than AOE spam. That the average skill level of players now versus in the past is a sewer is a fact. PvP is just more red herring, not surprised.

#1 No you haven't clarified. You have told me what it isn't. I know that according to you it isn't the following: "Hydron and Draco" I also am taking your logic, and moving it to the next step. You want to separate players, I use logic to see where that would end. Not every player will have a team that they can invite for low level missions, or even have teams that have the desire to run low level missions. This is where I take your logic to the next step, and see where that leads. Solo players would have those two options. Which isn't a red herring, its a logical step forward in logic. You wanted the player base split, this is the path I see it leading towards. Using more nukes, to farm solo, or CC just to get the mission over. 

Secondly, I asked you to show me the proof that Warframe is less skillful then is used to be. Show me evidence. Otherwise you saying the "average player skill" is utterly meaningless. Skill? What skill? This is an actual red herring, as you are trying to divert the argument, to your definition of "skill". I provided an example of a game mode that actually requires skill. As in PvP: weapons, and frames are balanced around each other, and you are bullet jumping around, trying to hit another player who has all the same tools you do, and trying to come out on top. If you enter a PvP mode against the same player, with same equipment, the winner is either the more skillful, or simply luckier. The average enemy horde in warframe has vastly different tools, aren't even half as agile, and main method of beating players is simply out-scaling them.  Killing players just by dealing ever rising damage outputs, till a shot finally hits you and kills you. On the other hand, enemies aren't hard to hit. Explosive weapons, Atomos, and Amprex don't even take aim. Just point an Ignis Wraith in the general direction, and you will hit something if you are simply close enough. How many players ever died, and went. "Man, that was hell of a shot. 1 in a million by that Grineer bombard. That homing rocket was pure skill" Nobody ever, as no skill is involved in either side of the scenario. 

9 hours ago, Buttaface said:

Wasn't talking about leveling or farming tiles like Hydron and Draco,

So I know it isn't these... Except that Draco was low level, and is currently low level. Either way, your point is basically non-existent regardless. Level 20 enemies are slightly more trivial then level 30s. Anything on the star map is considered low level to me, as a base frame can handle the entire star map without breaking a sweat. On to bust the rest of your points, again.
 

1 hour ago, Buttaface said:

2. That old Volt could "kill every enemy on the map" is a lie, and more of the same red herring stuff. In addition, farming lower level maps with weapons is easy and slightly more engaging. Semi AFK spam teams are not necessary to gather any amount of any resources in WF.

Old volt definitely could. However, that's not that point. AoE's aren't going anywhere. Nor should they be. They've been a part of Warframe since Forever, and limiting AoE's cause you don't like them is a terrible idea to limit yourself when it comes to game design. Also, I'm not sure you are familiar with the concept of farming. Farming is gathering resources, as fast and efficiently as possible.  Back when Zephyr first came out, she needed much more oxium then basically any player had. (400 oxium per part) Sure you can kill enemies with guns, but it is more fun, faster, and more satisfying to run in with a 5 Forma-ed Saryn. See a bunch of Oxium Ospreys and nuke them before they get a change to self destruct. Also faster, as you will have higher kills per second, then enemies spawn faster, and you save time. I haven't seen a single enemy in Warframe that I can't kill with a gun. Doesn't mean that is my preferred play style. (Remember, not everyone has the same tastes, and definition of fun, as you.) 
 

2 hours ago, Buttaface said:

3. I, and presumably OP, are indeed complaining about Saryn and other AOE spam on non farming tiles... right here in the written record of the thread, so there goes that.

The OP mentioned in the very first post, that they are baby sitting around while the Saryn nukes everything. You would not be sitting around, in the following missions. Hijack, Spy, Rescue, Raid bosses, Deception, Mobile Defense, Exterminate, Hive, Boss fights, Capture. As you have to move around the map, and do other things, if you are sitting around in these missions, you have no right to complain.

That leaves, Defense missions, interceptions, survivals, and excavations. So the majority of farming missions, people bring a farming frame. Imagine my surprise! That's like bringing a Loki to a spy mission! Absolutely unheard of. 
 

2 hours ago, Buttaface said:

4. Your doubling down on the Spy missions is MORE red herring. Completely irrelevant to the discussion and pure anecdote to boot.

Nope. Part of a point. A point you refuse to come to grips with. You claim Saryn is broken in every way to try to justify your hatred of how she works. Yet she is completely useless in quite a few mission types. I'll get more to that later when I read your "Saryn top 10 best tank" reply. 
 

2 hours ago, Buttaface said:

5. You are welcome to your opinion about tryhard players and what they do. The -fact- is that missions that do not require such are crammed full of AOE spamming frames that ruin the experience for lower players seeking to be engaged in a game as opposed to watching a rather boring show while not participating. Your "proof" is just another type of fallacy, a non sequitur.

Your "fact" is your opinion. I proved empirical evidence, that DE recorded themselves. The actual % of warframe use per player base during a given week. (Which is infinite more evidence that you have provided. SO much for your "fact") Here's some more evidence to bury you under. Notice how Rhino has massive amount of use in the early game? Feel free to go back to that link I provided for you. Basically Rhino is one of the most played frames in low level content. No skill to use. Very basic, no ability really has any dynamic interaction with anything else. Yet Mag is the opposite. All her abilities have different effects when used together. Polarize interacting with magnetize, making her really powerful later in the game when you learn to use her. People start with easy brain dead frames. Then get fancier with their frames, as they go further into the game. Mag's usage dips, then starts to rise. People using her in the beginning, then picking her back up with a better understanding of the game. By the time players reach Mastery Rank 25, and the massive amount of farming they have gone through to get to that rank. (It is a lot of weapons and frames) They go Saryn. The most obvious answer is cause she offers the easiest solution. I haven't seen these "Try-hards" you claim are everywhere. Spoiler alert? Nobody cares what your damage is. It might be cool to see that somebody got that many kills, or did that much damage. Then people go on with their lives. 
 

2 hours ago, Buttaface said:

6. To restate, it is perfectly easy to kill plenty of mobs to farm any content and get any resources using less AOE spammy frames and weapons while being more engaged in the game. If players want to cheese that kind of play, fine. It should be sequestered from early planets... such as Earth, Mercury and Venus (to avoid Uranus variety of red herring).

Warframe is a very easy game. There's no difference between kill enemies with a gun, or an ability. No point in splitting the player base, limiting who people can play with, when you have every option to tailor your own Warframe experience. Look up the definition of "Public". Get a good understanding of it. 
 

2 hours ago, Buttaface said:

7. I don't know what I'm talking about? No, that's you. See how easy and empty that is? Please do continue though, it's funny.

Except unlike you, I give proof. Even a long list of examples to show you how misguided you are. Instead of coming up with a counter argument, you whimsically ignore it. 
If you can't back up your claim, You're wrong. Here's some proof for you. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VuZPmRzFfWw

Just a regular Nidus. I don't even have the adaptation mod equipped. Just eating gunfire. Not even blocking. I didn't even use my ultimate to heal myself. This shows you have a fundamental lack of understand of Warframes. Nidus is amazing as he can get upto 72% base damage reduction with a maxed steel fiber, with his armor. (He gets hit by an attack that would do 100 damage, it is reduced to 28.) Then using a maxed Vitality, he has an effective health of 3964 health. When Nidus used Parasitic Link to a target, he gains an addition 90% damage reduction. Using that same example, 100 damage would be reduced to 2.8 damage - or 97% damage reduction. This gives him an effective health of 37,000. Then factor in his Ultimate healing him every second, and his passive ignoring death? Then you could go even further. Start blocking with your melee weapon. 

Saryn on the other hand, despite having a good amount of armor; has no additional damage reduction available to her other then blocking with melee. This makes her a terrible tank frame, as actual tank frames, have abilities that increase their capability to soak damage. See Valkyr, Chroma, Gara, Rhino, etc...
 

2 hours ago, Buttaface said:

8. Being an easier game does not preclude WF from training newer players to play more skillfully than they do, which would be better and more engaging than AOE spam. That the average skill level of players now versus in the past is a sewer is a fact. PvP is just more red herring, not surprised.

Skill doesn't exist in PvE Warframe. This is a Red Herring. As you are trying to again divert to this imaginary "skill" of yours. PvP is an example of actual skill, in the game. Give me an actual tangible example of skill in the PvE of Warframe. The game is entirely about how good your load out it setup. We have assault rifles that shoot homing bullets. Pistols that lob the area in grenades, Flamethrowers, every kind of grenade launcher you could possibly imagine. Aiming a gun, and shooting an AI enemy is not skillful. Enemies are slow, less agile, and predictable. Easy game is easy. No skill needed, no skill required. It's basically the third person shooter equivalent of Diablo. 

 

3 hours ago, Buttaface said:

9. Arbitration and higher enemy argument? MORE red herring. My complaints about AOE spam are specific to lower level players in earlier maps.

You complained about low level missions - where the "problem" off AoE solely exists. The most sensible answer, the easier, and the least obtrusive is higher level missions. Arbitration is the best example of where AoE is harmless. (Nice try though. You fail at debate.) Enemies are high enough level, with added protection of Nullifiers, Ancient Disruptors, or reduced through armor of the grineer. Not to mention the additional protection of Arbitration drones that prevent enemies under their protection from all sources of damage, and crowd control. 
 

3 hours ago, Buttaface said:

10. That the "entire solar system" is a breeze one can complete with a half-modded Karak is yet another lie. Why lie?

You wish it was a lie. You said it yourself. Want to see what a 130% Power Strength Rhino and a One forma Karak can do? It had 2-3 empty mod slots. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sdQd-BGCIJQ
That's the hardest the Solar Map has to offer. My karak was purposely neutered, and my rhino severely gimped. Yet, that's not really not my point. AoE is fine. If you want to be a Tryhard, (face it. You clearly are one. All you to do is talk about skill. Like a tryhard, trying to pretend you have any.) and play without AoE, nobody is forcing you, or the newbs or anyone to experience that. Matchmaking options, are there for you. And any mission can be completed if you put the time into your gear. 
 

 

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Rules for matchmaking:

Other players have different priorities and playstyles.  They have different skill levels and access.  They have different ideas of what fun is.

Go to carry or go to fail, learn that now.

DE is responsible for game content... YOU are responsible for your enjoyment of that content.

Options:

-Put your own group together that plays like you like.

-Play solo.

-Up your arsenal so you are competitive. 

-Deal with it.

Those are your options, choose your own adventure.

You have 4 options.

DE already bends over backwards to cater to new players to the point of babying them to death.  Line in the sand is drawn here.  You don't have to like how other people play or don't, and they don't have to like how you play or don't.  Assuming you should be special when de already bends over backwards to change the diapers of new players is at best best misguided and ill informed and more realistically is often narcissistic entitlement and pure laziness. 

Keep your uninformed opinions off my farming.

Edited by Klokwerkaos
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ill just post about things like this in weapons feedback but basically the problem its the same, i think warframe abilities should affect diferent all kind of enemys i would like to hear your idead to improve the situation right now but im also not satisfied with the way some warframes (just not saryn) use a few abilites and are able to kill or cc all around them see my post about weapons and maybe we can make a similar feedback and proposal about warframes abilites

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14 hours ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

#1 No you haven't clarified. You have told me what it isn't. I know that according to you it isn't the following: "Hydron and Draco" I also am taking your logic, and moving it to the next step. You want to separate players, I use logic to see where that would end. Not every player will have a team that they can invite for low level missions, or even have teams that have the desire to run low level missions. This is where I take your logic to the next step, and see where that leads. Solo players would have those two options. Which isn't a red herring, its a logical step forward in logic. You wanted the player base split, this is the path I see it leading towards. Using more nukes, to farm solo, or CC just to get the mission over. 

Secondly, I asked you to show me the proof that Warframe is less skillful then is used to be. Show me evidence. Otherwise you saying the "average player skill" is utterly meaningless. Skill? What skill? This is an actual red herring, as you are trying to divert the argument, to your definition of "skill". I provided an example of a game mode that actually requires skill. As in PvP: weapons, and frames are balanced around each other, and you are bullet jumping around, trying to hit another player who has all the same tools you do, and trying to come out on top. If you enter a PvP mode against the same player, with same equipment, the winner is either the more skillful, or simply luckier. The average enemy horde in warframe has vastly different tools, aren't even half as agile, and main method of beating players is simply out-scaling them.  Killing players just by dealing ever rising damage outputs, till a shot finally hits you and kills you. On the other hand, enemies aren't hard to hit. Explosive weapons, Atomos, and Amprex don't even take aim. Just point an Ignis Wraith in the general direction, and you will hit something if you are simply close enough. How many players ever died, and went. "Man, that was hell of a shot. 1 in a million by that Grineer bombard. That homing rocket was pure skill" Nobody ever, as no skill is involved in either side of the scenario. 

So I know it isn't these... Except that Draco was low level, and is currently low level. Either way, your point is basically non-existent regardless. Level 20 enemies are slightly more trivial then level 30s. Anything on the star map is considered low level to me, as a base frame can handle the entire star map without breaking a sweat. On to bust the rest of your points, again.
 

Old volt definitely could. However, that's not that point. AoE's aren't going anywhere. Nor should they be. They've been a part of Warframe since Forever, and limiting AoE's cause you don't like them is a terrible idea to limit yourself when it comes to game design. Also, I'm not sure you are familiar with the concept of farming. Farming is gathering resources, as fast and efficiently as possible.  Back when Zephyr first came out, she needed much more oxium then basically any player had. (400 oxium per part) Sure you can kill enemies with guns, but it is more fun, faster, and more satisfying to run in with a 5 Forma-ed Saryn. See a bunch of Oxium Ospreys and nuke them before they get a change to self destruct. Also faster, as you will have higher kills per second, then enemies spawn faster, and you save time. I haven't seen a single enemy in Warframe that I can't kill with a gun. Doesn't mean that is my preferred play style. (Remember, not everyone has the same tastes, and definition of fun, as you.) 
 

The OP mentioned in the very first post, that they are baby sitting around while the Saryn nukes everything. You would not be sitting around, in the following missions. Hijack, Spy, Rescue, Raid bosses, Deception, Mobile Defense, Exterminate, Hive, Boss fights, Capture. As you have to move around the map, and do other things, if you are sitting around in these missions, you have no right to complain.

That leaves, Defense missions, interceptions, survivals, and excavations. So the majority of farming missions, people bring a farming frame. Imagine my surprise! That's like bringing a Loki to a spy mission! Absolutely unheard of. 
 

Nope. Part of a point. A point you refuse to come to grips with. You claim Saryn is broken in every way to try to justify your hatred of how she works. Yet she is completely useless in quite a few mission types. I'll get more to that later when I read your "Saryn top 10 best tank" reply. 
 

Your "fact" is your opinion. I proved empirical evidence, that DE recorded themselves. The actual % of warframe use per player base during a given week. (Which is infinite more evidence that you have provided. SO much for your "fact") Here's some more evidence to bury you under. Notice how Rhino has massive amount of use in the early game? Feel free to go back to that link I provided for you. Basically Rhino is one of the most played frames in low level content. No skill to use. Very basic, no ability really has any dynamic interaction with anything else. Yet Mag is the opposite. All her abilities have different effects when used together. Polarize interacting with magnetize, making her really powerful later in the game when you learn to use her. People start with easy brain dead frames. Then get fancier with their frames, as they go further into the game. Mag's usage dips, then starts to rise. People using her in the beginning, then picking her back up with a better understanding of the game. By the time players reach Mastery Rank 25, and the massive amount of farming they have gone through to get to that rank. (It is a lot of weapons and frames) They go Saryn. The most obvious answer is cause she offers the easiest solution. I haven't seen these "Try-hards" you claim are everywhere. Spoiler alert? Nobody cares what your damage is. It might be cool to see that somebody got that many kills, or did that much damage. Then people go on with their lives. 
 

Warframe is a very easy game. There's no difference between kill enemies with a gun, or an ability. No point in splitting the player base, limiting who people can play with, when you have every option to tailor your own Warframe experience. Look up the definition of "Public". Get a good understanding of it. 
 

Except unlike you, I give proof. Even a long list of examples to show you how misguided you are. Instead of coming up with a counter argument, you whimsically ignore it. 
If you can't back up your claim, You're wrong. Here's some proof for you. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VuZPmRzFfWw

Just a regular Nidus. I don't even have the adaptation mod equipped. Just eating gunfire. Not even blocking. I didn't even use my ultimate to heal myself. This shows you have a fundamental lack of understand of Warframes. Nidus is amazing as he can get upto 72% base damage reduction with a maxed steel fiber, with his armor. (He gets hit by an attack that would do 100 damage, it is reduced to 28.) Then using a maxed Vitality, he has an effective health of 3964 health. When Nidus used Parasitic Link to a target, he gains an addition 90% damage reduction. Using that same example, 100 damage would be reduced to 2.8 damage - or 97% damage reduction. This gives him an effective health of 37,000. Then factor in his Ultimate healing him every second, and his passive ignoring death? Then you could go even further. Start blocking with your melee weapon. 

Saryn on the other hand, despite having a good amount of armor; has no additional damage reduction available to her other then blocking with melee. This makes her a terrible tank frame, as actual tank frames, have abilities that increase their capability to soak damage. See Valkyr, Chroma, Gara, Rhino, etc...
 

Skill doesn't exist in PvE Warframe. This is a Red Herring. As you are trying to again divert to this imaginary "skill" of yours. PvP is an example of actual skill, in the game. Give me an actual tangible example of skill in the PvE of Warframe. The game is entirely about how good your load out it setup. We have assault rifles that shoot homing bullets. Pistols that lob the area in grenades, Flamethrowers, every kind of grenade launcher you could possibly imagine. Aiming a gun, and shooting an AI enemy is not skillful. Enemies are slow, less agile, and predictable. Easy game is easy. No skill needed, no skill required. It's basically the third person shooter equivalent of Diablo. 

 

You complained about low level missions - where the "problem" off AoE solely exists. The most sensible answer, the easier, and the least obtrusive is higher level missions. Arbitration is the best example of where AoE is harmless. (Nice try though. You fail at debate.) Enemies are high enough level, with added protection of Nullifiers, Ancient Disruptors, or reduced through armor of the grineer. Not to mention the additional protection of Arbitration drones that prevent enemies under their protection from all sources of damage, and crowd control. 
 

You wish it was a lie. You said it yourself. Want to see what a 130% Power Strength Rhino and a One forma Karak can do? It had 2-3 empty mod slots. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sdQd-BGCIJQ
That's the hardest the Solar Map has to offer. My karak was purposely neutered, and my rhino severely gimped. Yet, that's not really not my point. AoE is fine. If you want to be a Tryhard, (face it. You clearly are one. All you to do is talk about skill. Like a tryhard, trying to pretend you have any.) and play without AoE, nobody is forcing you, or the newbs or anyone to experience that. Matchmaking options, are there for you. And any mission can be completed if you put the time into your gear. 
 

 

Have posted Earth, Venus and Mercury as prospective planets to sequester newbs, what, 3-4 times now? Dishonest or poor reading comprehension, which? There are all kinds of workarounds and minor tweaking possible to do this right and allow lower level players to learn the game for awhile before entering the larger AOE cheese fiesta, making your retorts and rank speculations red herrings. WF is a much broader game in play areas and tiles than in the past, making a "newbie" area a good design option towards retention.

I'm not showing you "evidence" or "prove" anything on a game forum unless I've been paid in advance for my time, nor am I going to add "IMO" to everything that is an opinion. I say the PUG player base is much less skilled than it was a couple of years ago, you disagree. Fine. PvP is utterly irrelevant to that claim.

Draco was not "low level" when it was an exp cave and would not be "low level" if it existed as such now. Stop posting blatant falsehoods. Feel free to consider the entire star chart "low level" all you like and be wrong. Earth, Mercury, Venus and Mars, some of the Void tiles, are "low level."

Your speculations about what mission types OP is playing are irrelevant. All that is relevant is that the OP is not having fun, and my opinion is that this is widespread among newer players when mixed with higher level players using AOE tryhard builds on low level maps.

AOE in WF is cancerous in its present state. Not only Saryn, but many cheeze abilities. AOE is just fine in games when it is limited, capped, whatever. WF is the only game I've ever played that doesn't do that. Moreover, I believe that this results in poor player retention generally, not to mention complaints that the game doesn't present a challenge. As good as WF is graphically, there should be over 100k active players at any time as a ratio of those who have tried it, yet there are not. This suggests to me that something is wrong with the game's functionality, and that includes mixing new and vet players, not limiting AOE in meaningful ways, and no challenge once a certain point is reached. Those are my opinions, again, agree or not.

The "evidence" in your wall doesn't amount to squat, doesn't even begin to form a reasonable correlation relevant to this topic, is full of groundless assumptions, and all the rhino/mag bladebla that I only skimmed is also irrelevant.

WF is also one of few MMO-like games without a "newb" area or areas where players learn the game before entering the larger game world. WF is one of the only games without a decent tutorial during that time. The argument that players should have complete freedom from the moment they install the game is not compelling in the least in light of all the dozens and hundreds of other MMO type games that sequester newer players and meaningfully TEACH them the game during that time. WF gives them the equivalent of a pamphlet, then sends them off into a boring cheeze fiesta.

No, I'm not clicking on a youtube video as "proof" of anything, a term you plainly don't understand. Your Nidus ramble is utterly irrelevant, and yes, I do in fact have a very strong working knowledge of the game mechanics including all the irrelevant DR mechanics you include in the wall for god knows why. If you have to play frames like Nidus to handle higher level content, well that's your cross to bear. I don't.

WF is an easy game, no argument. But there are basic skills common to all MMO-like games, have already listed them in the thread and you ignored, that end up skipped in WF because AOE cheeze is too readily available. Easy or not, the average player in WF is atrociously bad at the game as it is. If WF included more AOE limited modes and tiles, IMO the game would retain more players.

I posted that Saryn is one of the top ten tank frames. You claimed it is squishy and you are still wrong. The point was that a frame with two of the best AOE powers in the game together with augmented self healing in its aggro strip, AND the best melee buffing skill to boot, should not have 300 base armor also (only three frames/primes, Valkyr, Chroma and Atlas have more), and it is valid. The Saryn rework was way overdone.

Finally, more dishonesty with the Roar buffed karak. What you posted was that a half modded karak could "BREEZE" anything on the star chart... then you buff it with roar LULZ (oh...and was that a karak wraith? more lulz). Go do an hour of Mot with your half modded (that's 4 mods) UNBUFFED ordinary old karak without using frame powers and get back to us... or just admit you were caught in a flagrant exaggeration. I could probably pull this off (doubt you could), but it wouldn't be anything near a "breeze."

Anyway, have stated my opinions, and this will be my last post. They are, (again) since you rarely directly address them even in a wall, 1. OP's feelings are valid, newer players mixed with tryhard vets on low level tiles with max range AOE is a snooze fest as the many, long complaint threads about this, not just this one, attest. 2. WF needs to sequester Newbs and do a better job teaching them the game before they get to the AOE cheeze fiesta, and now has the scope of real estate to do that. 3. Lots of AOE needs range, target, dmg caps generally for the good of the game, or at least more cheeze-restricted tiles/modes.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Buttaface
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I have been talking about this issue since U16, and it's been an issue before that too. At U16 it was Excalibur nuking the entire map within 58.75m and killing vastly more than any other warframe. Ash was around that same time killing everything with 2k slash procs, able to stack up to 40k slash damage with 100% chance at bleed procs on any enemy. Before that, Nova was nuking entire rooms since her Molecular Prime debuff range and the explosion damage range both scaled off range mods at the time.

The major issue: the game is being trivialized and this shortens its lifespan for any player who plays this game. The reason why people argue in favor of these broken mechanics is for gameplay rewards. The issue and its lobbying became obvious during the Vivergate scandal period, when an extremely balance and then-unbalanced Syndicate system was release, which was initially way too much grind for even the tiniest rewards. Once players saw how much grind was involved they created an extreme grind method, and once developers realized this they developed line-of-sight, limiting warframe ability effectiveness by only allowing them to hit enemies if the warframe was within visual sight of the enemy within 5 seconds before casting.

The solution solved the range problem in a permanently viable manner, but then players absolutely did not want it because their only viable method for farming towards syndicate rewards was being stolen from them, so they rebelled. The developers removed line-of-sight requirement mechanics from abilities, made Syndicate rewards far easier to obtain, and then went on a structured development plan to make enemies that were effectively ability-immune, by mechanics that they either resist all damage, resist abilities, nullify abilities, are extremely durable, or steal player energy.

As of currently, players still complain about long-range abilities trivializing the game, to which other players argue they should continue doing this. For those who support mindless nuke-spam they just want to farm more efficiently, but this isn't a valid point because the developers have gone to great lengths to ensure player satisfaction in material acquisition and progression. I support line-of-sight because it will in fact make the game more fun and tactical, while barely harming our ability to earn within the game.

The developers clearly have regret with their initial balance plan regarding ability range, as range mods have been much weaker beyond Stretch and Overextended, being based off 30% increments instead of 45% increments. Arbitrations are a testing ground to design invincible enemies, designed purely to combat our tendency to spam damaging radials. Newer warframes lack long-range damage radials that pass through walls.

That said, I'm glad this issue is coming up more frequently.

However make no mistake--this is a systematic issue, not one you should blame any one warframe for.

We do need a permanent ability range issue. The quick and dirty way is to change Overextended's stats from +90% range -60% strength to +50% range and -20% strength, but the true solution is something similar to line-of-sight.

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8 hours ago, MechaKnight said:

I have been talking about this issue since U16, and it's been an issue before that too. At U16 it was Excalibur nuking the entire map within 58.75m and killing vastly more than any other warframe. Ash was around that same time killing everything with 2k slash procs, able to stack up to 40k slash damage with 100% chance at bleed procs on any enemy. Before that, Nova was nuking entire rooms since her Molecular Prime debuff range and the explosion damage range both scaled off range mods at the time.

The major issue: the game is being trivialized and this shortens its lifespan for any player who plays this game. The reason why people argue in favor of these broken mechanics is for gameplay rewards. The issue and its lobbying became obvious during the Vivergate scandal period, when an extremely balance and then-unbalanced Syndicate system was release, which was initially way too much grind for even the tiniest rewards. Once players saw how much grind was involved they created an extreme grind method, and once developers realized this they developed line-of-sight, limiting warframe ability effectiveness by only allowing them to hit enemies if the warframe was within visual sight of the enemy within 5 seconds before casting.

The solution solved the range problem in a permanently viable manner, but then players absolutely did not want it because their only viable method for farming towards syndicate rewards was being stolen from them, so they rebelled. The developers removed line-of-sight requirement mechanics from abilities, made Syndicate rewards far easier to obtain, and then went on a structured development plan to make enemies that were effectively ability-immune, by mechanics that they either resist all damage, resist abilities, nullify abilities, are extremely durable, or steal player energy.

As of currently, players still complain about long-range abilities trivializing the game, to which other players argue they should continue doing this. For those who support mindless nuke-spam they just want to farm more efficiently, but this isn't a valid point because the developers have gone to great lengths to ensure player satisfaction in material acquisition and progression. I support line-of-sight because it will in fact make the game more fun and tactical, while barely harming our ability to earn within the game.

The developers clearly have regret with their initial balance plan regarding ability range, as range mods have been much weaker beyond Stretch and Overextended, being based off 30% increments instead of 45% increments. Arbitrations are a testing ground to design invincible enemies, designed purely to combat our tendency to spam damaging radials. Newer warframes lack long-range damage radials that pass through walls.

That said, I'm glad this issue is coming up more frequently.

However make no mistake--this is a systematic issue, not one you should blame any one warframe for.

We do need a permanent ability range issue. The quick and dirty way is to change Overextended's stats from +90% range -60% strength to +50% range and -20% strength, but the true solution is something similar to line-of-sight.

You're point is a bit off here.

If the grind to reward ratio was satisfying then people wouldn't spend hours days and weeks trying to figure out the next exploit nuke.  One guy would, but he wouldnt talk about it to make sure he didnt get it nerfed.

Grind is necessary for premium currency to habe effect in this model.  Players compensate by investing wisely and grinding efficiently.

Less efficient players then get butt hurt rather than saying thank you for their rewards, putting together their own groups or playing solo.

If the grind isn't so bad, tell me how many millions of plastics you've farmed to decorate one single room of your moon tier dojo.  If the answer is none, you are speaking from ignorance.   Tell me about the tower white grind for mountain tier.  Tell me about 12k Oxium requirements for a single object.  Then look me in the eye and tell me the grind is balanced.

It isn't.

One of the best things about warframe is it has lots of stuff to do, and players can set their own priorities.  This is also one of its biggest challenges.

By having different priorities we end up with arguments like this.  The answer is pretty simple though, you don't get to tell people what they are allowed to consider fun and how they should play.

You do get to be responsible for your own good time.  DE is responsible for content, you are responsible for your emotional content.

Additionally, you have 4 options available I lined out above.

The key thing is, you need to habe grind to male money in this model.  You also need a rewarding game play loop.  To stretch that out over 5 years their is massive power disparity between newbies and vets, as with any game.  The difference is the vets legit have something to do, not Mich, but farming is an activity that does have a payoff.  If we had sustainable endgame this might solve some of the problem but we don't.

What we have is de bending over backwards to coddle and baby new players while ignoring the vet experience almost exclusively.

Trying to take away all our efficient farming methods will result in massive outcry and exodus, not just of vets, but newer players too.

The thing is, actual balance isn't good.  If you think it is, go play Nintendo karate where both fighters are identical.  Tell me it's a good game.  If you legit think it is then go play that instead of ruining warframe.  If you recognize that the game is crap, then you realize why long game play loops require unbalanced approaches and how that is a mandatory part of existence in the market.

There is a time for nerfs, but that time is almost never.  Usually you can solve nerfing something by simply buffing elsewhere.  Nerfs are only good for things that are so far off the spectrum they are legit game breaking in all environments, not just in comparison to the new player experience.

 

 

 

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6 hours ago, Buttaface said:

Have posted Earth, Venus and Mercury as prospective planets to sequester newbs, what, 3-4 times now?

Nope. You haven't listed the specific planets to split players up a single time other then this post. Maybe you need to actually read what you type? You might be posting it on a different topic, or just thinking it really, really hard. I'll direct quote you every time you "Clarified"

On 2018-11-26 at 9:54 PM, Buttaface said:

Then they need to split off new/low players from vets and outright prohibit aoe cheeze altogether in certain lower planets. Once someone has left one of the newb planets, they can't get back unless they are solo or in a full invited team with no chance of getting a pug in the team or somesuch limits.

"Certain low level planets" vague response. No clarification. 

On 2018-11-27 at 2:02 PM, Buttaface said:

Wasn't talking about leveling or farming tiles like Hydron and Draco, so there goes straw man the first.

This is the only time you specifically mentioned any location at all previous to this post.

On 2018-11-27 at 9:58 PM, Buttaface said:

1. Clarified my "low level planet" point, what, twice now?

Do you need a dictionary? You clarified nothing. 
 

7 hours ago, Buttaface said:

Dishonest or poor reading comprehension, which?

You tell me. Despite asking you multiple times for clarification, you choose to avoid clarifying all together. In fact, whenever it comes to providing evidence or an example for your argument, you base it solely on your opinion with nothing to support it. Example #1

On 2018-11-27 at 2:02 PM, Buttaface said:

Saryn is one of the top ten tank frames in the game. If "squishy" in the least, it isn't built correctly, especially with some of the newer mods.

So you tried to prop up your argument, claiming that Saryn is also one of the top 10 strongest tanks. This has no evidence to support it, and I went great length to explain why this isn't the case. Even giving you an explanation of why, with detailed information about effective health when combined with damage reduction from abilities and armor. Yet you can't accept facts that contradict your point, so you choose to be purposefully ignorant. 

7 hours ago, Buttaface said:

I'm not showing you "evidence" or "prove" anything on a game forum unless I've been paid in advance for my time, nor am I going to add "IMO" to everything that is an opinion. I say the PUG player base is much less skilled than it was a couple of years ago, you disagree. Fine. PvP is utterly irrelevant to that claim.

You won't show me evidence, as you have none. Evidence would add to your credibility, (you could use some credibility) and give your claims some actual backing. Might even help convince people you are right, other then your terrible opinions. I asked you to show me an example of Skill in the game, even providing you an example of it. Yet like the typical response, you wave it off. I join arbitrations in PUGs, and 75-80% of the time in my personal experience I get a very competent team. I might get a single bad teammate, but the average person pulls their weight or doesn't drag down the team. I have yet to experience any real "skill drop" in my Public missions, and at this point, "Skill" is the only argument you can shoehorn in. 

You complain about Tryhards and "Muhdeeps" 

Yet you are a Tryhard and "MuhSkillz" You haven't even clarified what you think Skill is. A complete and utter devoid argument, that derails any positive feedback, that you can circle around to whenever somebody disproves you. (Bad logic.)
 

7 hours ago, Buttaface said:

The "evidence" in your wall doesn't amount to squat, doesn't even begin to form a reasonable correlation relevant to this topic, is full of groundless assumptions, and all the rhino/mag bladebla that I only skimmed is also irrelevant.

I would love to go through your evidence and critique it. Alas, you won't give even a proper example, other then your blithering on. Groundless assumptions comes from lack of evidence to base it on. I provided links of Warframe player usage, and an observation on those statistics, that I still believe are accurate. Tell me, other then personal experience, what do you base your facts on? What evidence are you using? None. Groundless Assumption is based on no evidence. -Every post you have made in this thread falls into this category. 

7 hours ago, Buttaface said:

WF is also one of few MMO-like games without a "newb" area or areas where players learn the game before entering the larger game world. WF is one of the only games without a decent tutorial during that time. The argument that players should have complete freedom from the moment they install the game is not compelling in the least in light of all the dozens and hundreds of other MMO type games that sequester newer players and meaningfully TEACH them the game during that time. WF gives them the equivalent of a pamphlet, then sends them off into a boring cheeze fiesta.

Warframe for quite awhile didn't have a proper tutorial. That's why they added "Vor's Prize" as a starter quest to rebuild the orbiter and explain the points behind Warframe's System. As much as I would love to cheese spam a quest for a newb (Sarcasm) It's an invite only quest. After this tutorial, Newbs have to unlock new areas, with certain tasks just like in any other MMO. Junctions have challenges tied to them, to force newbs into teaching themselves as they complete the required tasks to progress. However, this has nothing to do with the argument. As the OP is mainly complaining about farming missions. I see nukers like Saryn  far less frequently on random missions. Then I see them extremely commonly on missions like Hydron. I wouldn't call this low level, but I wouldn't call it high level either. Coming into this mission, the player has to take their lumps and accept the team they get. No matter how good or bad they may be.
 

7 hours ago, Buttaface said:

No, I'm not clicking on a youtube video as "proof" of anything, a term you plainly don't understand. Your Nidus ramble is utterly irrelevant, and yes, I do in fact have a very strong working knowledge of the game mechanics including all the irrelevant DR mechanics you include in the wall for god knows why. If you have to play frames like Nidus to handle higher level content, well that's your cross to bear. I don't.

This is hilarious to me. The blatant contradictions in your argument are outstanding. You would know so much about "proof" after giving so much of it. Tell me, do you just clap your hands on your ears and shut your eyes whenever somebody has any evidence to disprove you? This is proof, and actual hard example of what a Top ten tank can do. Level 125 gunners just blasting away at me for about a minute, while I stand and watch. This was to disprove your "Saryn is So Op. Top 10 tank Plz Nerf" argument you tried to make. 

Tell me dude, What kind of higher level content have you experienced? Cause I'm really starting to think, that for you, level 30 is High Level. 
image.jpg?width=761&height=429

You'll notice if you look, a level 602 enemy hit me for 306 damage. I had around 97% damage reduction at this point. Meaning normally, this hit would have done 13,000 damage without any Damage resistance. Even at 90% damage reduction, that hit (1300) would have killed most frames. But if you don't know what High level content is, then that's your cross to bear. This is actual proof of the strength of a top 10 tank. Saryn has no capability of doing this on her own. 
 

7 hours ago, Buttaface said:

WF is an easy game, no argument. But there are basic skills common to all MMO-like games, have already listed them in the thread and you ignored, that end up skipped in WF because AOE cheeze is too readily available. Easy or not, the average player in WF is atrociously bad at the game as it is. If WF included more AOE limited modes and tiles, IMO the game would retain more players.

(No, you haven't listed anything in this thread. You give no examples) AoE skills are common to all MMO like games. Ever heard of a "Caster?" Casters stereotypically have low defense to offset their high damage. Saryn, and every other high dps frame that can clear rooms with AoE fit into this mold. The only difference is in Warframe, you have farm the Warframe, the mods to make it good. craft it, level it up multiple times before you have the ability to do so. Other games just have you level up, and have higher gear then the enemies under your level. If you count Forma towards Saryn's level, then the average Saryn is around level 90-120 with as many high end mods as the player can fit on. Saryn should be able to trivialize any enemy under her level. 

8 hours ago, Buttaface said:

I posted that Saryn is one of the top ten tank frames. You claimed it is squishy and you are still wrong. The point was that a frame with two of the best AOE powers in the game together with augmented self healing in its aggro strip, AND the best melee buffing skill to boot, should not have 300 base armor also (only three frames/primes, Valkyr, Chroma and Atlas have more), and it is valid. The Saryn rework was way overdone.

You call me wrong, you might want to check your facts, Chief. Saryn doesn't anything close to the actual tank ability of other frames. I already stated this fact to you previously. If you used facts or evidence, you might know this. Even after citing the ridiculous amount of Effective health Nidus can have. Since you are unaware, Let me educate you on Saryn's effective health. 

Saryn Prime has an effective health of 2,890 points with a maxed vitality, and a steel fiber. This comes primarily from her 67% damage reduction. Inaros on the other hand, has more effective health then her, if he's only equipped with maxed vitality mod. Giving him Steel Fiber, and Vitality, has him at a base effective health of 11,268 points of health, or roughly 4x Saryn's effective health. Giving him additional armor with his ultimate, gives him an effective health of 14,437.5 effective health. This is without any augment, and doesn't detract away from his other abilities. 

A Rhino Prime's Ironskin will soak up 3,160 damage, if he is equipped with nothing more then an intensify, and and a steel fiber. His one ability gives him more effective health then Saryn Prime. This gives him a total of 5,336 effective health if he's only equipped with a vitality, steel fiber, and an intensify. However, Iron Skin soaks up damage, has a 3 second invincibility window, and can be recast. 

Trinity Prime with Link, and Blessing can get her two separate instances of 75% damage reduction. This gives her a total damage reduction of 94% with her armor. This means she will have 12,333 effective health in this scenario. 

Nyx with Assimilation, and max efficiency can absorb 1000 damage for a cost of 2 energy. This makes her immensely tanky, as tanking 3,000 damage would cost her 6 energy. 100 energy can negate 50,000 points of damage in the best case scenario. 

Chroma will have vastly different effective health depending on the element you set him as. Ice Choma has ridiculous armor, while Fire Chroma will give him more health. An Intensify, and a Steel Fiber will give him 2,327 armor when he uses scorn which is 88.5% damage reduction. If he has a maxed vitality on, this gives him an effective health of 6,491 points. This number grows larger with Elemental ward. 

More evidence to show you, how little you really know. An ability that draws aggro doesn't make Saryn tanky. Just like Loki's decoy doesn't make him tanky. A self healing augment, isn't impressive, when every frame can equip Life Strike on their melee weapon, and heal far more efficiently. Regenerative molt, also won't heal for the entire amount, if Saryn has reduced ability duration. 
 

9 hours ago, Buttaface said:

Finally, more dishonesty with the Roar buffed karak. What you posted was that a half modded karak could "BREEZE" anything on the star chart... then you buff it with roar LULZ (oh...and was that a karak wraith? more lulz). Go do an hour of Mot with your half modded (that's 4 mods) UNBUFFED ordinary old karak without using frame powers and get back

If you have working eyeballs, you can look at the bottom corner of the screen. See where it says "Karak"? Equipping a different weapon would label that "Karak Wraith". Also if you had eyeballs, you could see that without roar, it melts through the lower corrupted enemies in 1-2 seconds. You know... at the start of the video? You can see when and what abilities I have active. Also at the bottom corner of the video. Corrupted enemies have the most health and armor of any unit in the star chart, as well as the highest level. Instead of using roar, you could substitute an Excalibur, and just kill everything with exalted blade. The karak could handle those enemies, and could handle any enemy under that level. Talk about dishonesty on your part though. At this point, I hope nobody takes your arguments seriously, as you blatantly admitted to not using proof, not looking at evidence, and completely failing at discrediting evidence. Another fail for you the Tryhard. 
 

9 hours ago, Buttaface said:

Anyway, have stated my opinions, and this will be my last post. They are, (again) since you rarely directly address them even in a wall, 1. OP's feelings are valid, newer players mixed with tryhard vets on low level tiles with max range AOE is a snooze fest as the many, long complaint threads about this, not just this one, attest. 2. WF needs to sequester Newbs and do a better job teaching them the game before they get to the AOE cheeze fiesta, and now has the scope of real estate to do that. 3. Lots of AOE needs range, target, dmg caps generally for the good of the game, or at least more cheeze-restricted tiles/modes.


You have stated only opinions. Not facts. I hope it will be your last post as your posts have had nothing worth reading. No, lower players should not be segregated from vets, Unless, they add it on as a completely optional matchmaking option. If low level players choose that option, that is fine, and acceptable. Otherwise, every word of your posts is hot garbage. AoE is fine, and keeps players feeling powerful. Limiting AoE and adding on damage caps would leave the game feeling immensely grindy, and make enemies into Boring Bullet Sponges akin to Destiny. This is a quick paced, horde shooter, to the likes of Diablo. Not a "Skill" based borefest like you pretend it is. 






 

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vor 50 Minuten schrieb (PS4)UltraKardas:

-snip

Dude, you should stop playing word games of this length, noone is going to read that. It's no shame in having a different opinion than your opponent but what you do is systematically trying to ignore everything he writes and hammer on perceived mistakes in argumentational style. In the end that makes you look pedantic. This is an exchange of opinions no facts are being established. Also all this arguing of what frame is best in very high level environments is done in a threat about clearing low level maps, way missing the point.

In the end, reaching high level enemies in warframe is no show of skill but only endurance. Chose one of several easy to follow strategies and you can't fail. It's great AoE makes you feel powerful and all, but maybe you should think of the other 3 players in your squad. If you're able to delete everything to shoot at before they get a chance to see it, those 3 will feel the opposite of powerful, i.e. useless. Usually I play games to enjoy the gameplay, not to look at end of mission screens, but hey that's just me. If the majority wants to play a pickup simulator, who am I to criticize thise? I'm only writing because maybe enough ppl are feeling that way that player satisfaction might take a significant hit if enough players are feeling that way and decide spending their time elsewhere when they get nothing else to do than spam a single button 90% of the time. In that case the devs should know about it and they might decide to change a few things. And since lots of those tactics have been adressed in the past it might seem the devs do somewhat agree with that thought.

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Is this even a topic to talk about.... smh leave it to the new players to get the game nerf. since fortuna came out it also drag in a lot of nubs as well...trying to kill enemies with their MK 1 braton. Am getting tired of the these lil cry babies trying to change the game for their liking which they wont even be around for a another year, only here for the hype.

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This is why De needs a elite star map...to funnel all the vets out of the lower planets...or maybe add moons like Lua to Earth so vets can farm there rather than destroying the fun for the new players...I keep thinking about FORZA and how you have to pull parts off your car in order to race in certain venues. This might be equally and fairly applied to our own mod sets ups when entering the lower planets...it's not like vets aren't sitting on tons of endo and mods and have differing levels of power for them...

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On 2018-11-25 at 6:13 PM, Marakai said:

Saryn kills whole map using so much skill as pressing 2 buttons.

HEY some has to 1 shot the map at Hydron to lvl the weapons xD

You should not be bothered by people 1shotting the map bcus you won't get what you want. every1 in this game (that plays for a good amount) has frames that can nuke.
If you are going to get triggered everytime you see 1 you should look for a diffrend game.

P.S. every1 in this game is a scientist mixing up mods and combinations to strife for nuking (We are suckers like that).
Even if everything get's nerfed to the bone, we will find something else that still will ruin every enemy in a single shot.

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1 hour ago, W3zeer said:

Dude, you should stop playing word games of this length, noone is going to read that. It's no shame in having a different opinion than your opponent but what you do is systematically trying to ignore everything he writes and hammer on perceived mistakes in argumentational style. In the end that makes you look pedantic. This is an exchange of opinions no facts are being established. Also all this arguing of what frame is best in very high level environments is done in a threat about clearing low level maps, way missing the point.

My conversation was with somebody who didn't clarify his opinion, and just stated everything else to be a fact. So I took his argument, and directed it part by part. 
There's a difference between opinion, and just spouting nonsense without evidence.

The argument about Saryn being tanky, was to try to hype Saryn up as broken in multiple regards, and is easily debunked. 
 

2 hours ago, W3zeer said:

In the end, reaching high level enemies in warframe is no show of skill but only endurance. Chose one of several easy to follow strategies and you can't fail. It's great AoE makes you feel powerful and all, but maybe you should think of the other 3 players in your squad. If you're able to delete everything to shoot at before they get a chance to see it, those 3 will feel the opposite of powerful, i.e. useless. Usually I play games to enjoy the gameplay, not to look at end of mission screens, but hey that's just me. If the majority wants to play a pickup simulator, who am I to criticize thise? I'm only writing because maybe enough ppl are feeling that way that player satisfaction might take a significant hit if enough players are feeling that way and decide spending their time elsewhere when they get nothing else to do than spam a single button 90% of the time. In that case the devs should know about it and they might decide to change a few things. And since lots of those tactics have been adressed in the past it might seem the devs do somewhat agree with that thought.

High Level enemies won't be trivialized in the same way low levels can be wiped off the map from a single AoE. I have seen 0 complaints about AoE frames in arbitrations for exactly this reason. Nobody has complained about +300% Power Strength Saryn. This discussion revolves around more then just dps. This is also a discussion about farming, which is why Saryn is so popular among other reasons. I think the best solution, would be to have high level enemy drop higher scaling rewards. The same amount of Polymer Bundles drop if I kill a level 30, or a level 15. Why would somebody bother farming higher enemies more slowly? A post brought up the point awhile ago, how ridiculous farming can get later in the games. Hema for a direct example, was an absolute chore to unlock for a larger clan. 

Press 4 to win, is already basically a thing of the past. See how Miasma's damage already got cut in half on enemies without spores. 

 

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On 2018-11-25 at 9:35 AM, Marakai said:

Pressing one button once or two buttons once is hardly "hack n slash". It's "stand and splash" maybe.

The most imprtant thing is looking good while doing so.

Fashion is what matters in this game. That an 2000pl groll rivens for the current meta purchased in trade chat.

True end game are those flipping prime gear and rivens for hours in trade.

😉

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8 hours ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

Nope. You haven't listed the specific planets to split players up a single time other then this post.

Tuesday 4:02, Tues 11:58. In both posts I mentioned the planets I meant by "low level" by name, right on this page of the thread. Stopped reading the voluminous tome there, why bother with a poster who persistently posts things that aren't the case together with mountains of total, utter irrelevance? And yeah, this one will be my last post to the thread. Have stated my opinions, agree with OP and others in the thread who recognize the problem.

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28 minutes ago, Buttaface said:

Tuesday 4:02, Tues 11:58. In both posts I mentioned the planets I meant by "low level" by name, right on this page of the thread. Stopped reading the voluminous tome there, why bother with a poster who persistently posts things that aren't the case together with mountains of total, utter irrelevance? And yeah, this one will be my last post to the thread. Have stated my opinions, agree with OP and others in the thread who recognize the problem.

Speak for yourself, sir. All that information posted is about the inaccurate claims you make, from Saryn being tanky to the other nonsense you post. 

Also, you already mentioned that you were quitting, taking your ball home and leaving. Yet you are still here. Still without anything to support your claims of skill or other dumb notions you offhanded mentioned. Looking back at one of your posts, I did notice you mentioned the planets after mentioning Fortuna as a farm. 

(Except that doesn't fix anything, as most farming is done in dark sectors, where you get bonus materials, or hydron where the exp is good...)

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The reality is de made this game for players to be as overpowered as they can with frames like saryn. Warframe is no longer the game i can ever suspect a challenge from. I only ask again to de is make older frames be more relevant to the modern dps/ horde state the game is in. Which imo they have not been doing so well at. Which way im playing other games now.

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15 hours ago, Klokwerkaos said:

You're point is a bit off here.

If the grind to reward ratio was satisfying then people wouldn't spend hours days and weeks trying to figure out the next exploit nuke.  One guy would, but he wouldnt talk about it to make sure he didnt get it nerfed.

Grind is necessary for premium currency to habe effect in this model.  Players compensate by investing wisely and grinding efficiently.

Less efficient players then get butt hurt rather than saying thank you for their rewards, putting together their own groups or playing solo.

If the grind isn't so bad, tell me how many millions of plastics you've farmed to decorate one single room of your moon tier dojo.  If the answer is none, you are speaking from ignorance.   Tell me about the tower white grind for mountain tier.  Tell me about 12k Oxium requirements for a single object.  Then look me in the eye and tell me the grind is balanced.

It isn't.

One of the best things about warframe is it has lots of stuff to do, and players can set their own priorities.  This is also one of its biggest challenges.

By having different priorities we end up with arguments like this.  The answer is pretty simple though, you don't get to tell people what they are allowed to consider fun and how they should play.

You do get to be responsible for your own good time.  DE is responsible for content, you are responsible for your emotional content.

Additionally, you have 4 options available I lined out above.

The key thing is, you need to habe grind to male money in this model.  You also need a rewarding game play loop.  To stretch that out over 5 years their is massive power disparity between newbies and vets, as with any game.  The difference is the vets legit have something to do, not Mich, but farming is an activity that does have a payoff.  If we had sustainable endgame this might solve some of the problem but we don't.

What we have is de bending over backwards to coddle and baby new players while ignoring the vet experience almost exclusively.

Trying to take away all our efficient farming methods will result in massive outcry and exodus, not just of vets, but newer players too.

The thing is, actual balance isn't good.  If you think it is, go play Nintendo karate where both fighters are identical.  Tell me it's a good game.  If you legit think it is then go play that instead of ruining warframe.  If you recognize that the game is crap, then you realize why long game play loops require unbalanced approaches and how that is a mandatory part of existence in the market.

There is a time for nerfs, but that time is almost never.  Usually you can solve nerfing something by simply buffing elsewhere.  Nerfs are only good for things that are so far off the spectrum they are legit game breaking in all environments, not just in comparison to the new player experience.

I am a veteran--I was here 3 years earlier than you--so drop your no true Scotsman fallacy, not all veterans support broken game mechanics in exchange for pointless loot grinding.

Many of us have been around for so long grinding and casually playing that mission rewards are a secondary cause, unless you're trying to decorate a Moon Clan where by absolutely broken standards all material requirements are multiplied by 100 because it is expected that all members contribute. If you're bothered by that the immediate self-solution is to downsize your clan tier because it clearly isn't active enough. I don't like DE's system of scaling dojo requirements so harshly to clan member capacity, but if that's your problem you can look up how to downgrade your clan tier.

You can't tell people they don't have the right to criticize a long-standing issue regarding the game, because they play it just as you do. Many of the people criticizing the lack of difficulty in the face of overextended player range through walls come from more difficult MMOs and team-based games where we actually had to work as a team in order to win the game. We don't care if someone's carrying, because we came to play the game and have fun too.

So you say these players should make their own squad, but that's not a solution either. Playing solo isn't efficient because fewer enemies spawn, and recruiting is too efficient because even if you set rules for your session people break those rules anyway because it is always more efficient to nuke through walls than play tactically for fun. There isn't much difficulty to be found except for waiting way too long in infinite missions, which isn't viable for busy professionals with congested lives that only allow an hour of gameplay on only some days.

As a veteran, the only people experiencing "endgame" adequately is the freshly new guy with an Mk-1 weapon kit who got taxi'd into a nightmare mode mission on a level 40+ Void node. We don't have adequate endgame yet because nuking through walls before the enemy can touch you is still the most effective strategy on a team even through infinite content. The developers had to resort to making Nullifiers, Nox, Juggernauts, Bursas, Combas, Energy Leeches, and now Arbitration-invincible enemies to make sure spamming abilities won't work all the time. Alas, all we do is spam anyway to kill the majority then spend a tiny bit of effort to kill the "stronger" enemy.

I'm a veteran and I've been sick of the lack of endgame, which is only an issue because we have a lack of challenge because we eliminate all challenge through radials. We not only need balance but actively seek it as an entire community. Let me explain.

It's a simple plan for most developers to release a game then build on it, but a common issue within this scenario is that player options are not balanced, as new content added can tip the scales, and content originally created wasn't tested for balance within the then/current/future meta-game. There are a lot of things a dev team would regret in making playable content too weak or too strong against player scenarios.

When player content is too weak buffing it is something everyone can agree with, but when content is too strong there's a lot of opposition from the players who either want to play the game with the content because it is more fun, or meta-gaming corruption from players who want more earned rewards. Agreements to fix overpowered content are built around consensus that it is not fun to have this content around, and we have adequate earning potential towards game rewards.

It varies by developer and game, but so far Warframe has wonderfully accessible content aside from a few outliers like Hema research. I would say we do not need or really want more powerful options. Some people say it is fun, but my observation is that a game without challenge or thrill is not fun. Once players are established in a game too well, the game ceases to be fun, thus the player either has to invent fun or quit the game until more potentially fun content arrives. If the player is too strong, all new content is quickly trivialized.

Balance around PvE and PvP are different, with the scale leaning towards PvE requiring more balance for sustainability of the game experience, while PvP adjusts balance through competitive meta evolution, but still requires balance because an overcentralized meta-game severely limits gameplay until significant fun through variety is lost.

A suggestion that sounds good is to create more challenging and fun content, but there are some outlier player options that are so strong they repeatedly remove excessive amounts of challenge from all new content, even when challenge is the sole goal of the added content. Overpowered content of this nature should be balanced to create an overall more fun and sustainable game.

Warframe is a very unique game that allows players to modify ability stats with amounts and versatility rarely seen in other games, thus creating unique problems for the rare situations in games that are more common in Warframe.

In Warframe we can modify abilities and melee weapons to have more range. This brings about balance issues when one player option creates synergies with other player options to an excessive degree.

For example, Overextended, which I call the nerf bringer. This mod has been the core reason for frame ability rebalances for years since it was released. Frames rebalanced around this mod include but are not limited to: Ash, Banshee, Ember, Excalibur, Mag, Mesa, Mirage, Nova, Nyx, Saryn, Trinity, Vauban, and Volt. For these mentioned frames throughout the years, a large-range radial ability has been altered (usually nerfed), although occasionally later the ability is buffed. This is usually the case when said frame has an ability that damages or stuns in a large area to the degree that it deletes or disables enemies long before they come close to players. This is the core cause of the Vivergate issues and trial attempts with line-of-sight range modification and improved enemy spawn algorithms. This is also the cause for defense and interception map reworks.

You can see this effect within the current standing meta-game. For radial area damage dealing competition amongst frames, there are Equinox, Mesa, Volt, and Saryn. Out of these 4 frames, 3 of them have their area-damage builds centralized around Overextended, while Mesa has an exceptionally large unmodifiable range but great damage and status potential. For buff and stun support we have Banshee and Octavia, with builds both centralized around Overextended for their usual build. For healers we have Harrow, Oberon, and Trinity. 2 of these frames have their range bound by affinity range rather than the ability range stat, and Oberon's healing support is unbound by range, while initiating his armor support requires teammates to stand on Hallowed Ground, which is increased by range stat, thus this becomes easier/better with this stat.

Overextended centralizes these builds by attracting players to use the mod for the "good builds." If you're not using this mod, your build just doesn't work so well for the same goal.

I would consider Overextended to be an item which overcentralizes builds, but I'm not satisfied with the usual end result of this issue in most Warframe circumstances. Rather than rebalance this one mod, the aforementioned long list of frames I mentioned had various tweaks to address their range, and future added frame abilities are built to avoid excessive range effect like Revenant's Danse Macabre.

Warframe is a unique game that creates unique problems, and as such in needs to create unique solutions.

As for speaking about the difference in power between new players and veterans playing the same mission, that's a progression issue, not a balance issue.

The balance issue appears when nearly all forms of gameplay meta-game are overcentralized around a particular player option, such that picking this one option is the one winning choice, all others aren't as good all-around even considering different scenarios. If you wish to think about World of Warcraft to explain this issue, consider the following 2 examples.

A level 100 player is playing within level 45 missions and is dominating due to the strength of their gear. That's a progression issue--there isn't sufficient content for that player to be exercising their power in.

A newly added class named the Deathknight (or anything, make up a name) is about the best overall class, dealing extremely high amounts of damage against multiple targets while also being very durable and fast, rising to become the best class with little or no competition. This is a balance problem: if you're not playing with this overpowered class, you're not making the best meta-game decision. Your teammates may feel overshadowed by the might of this class, and seeing this class in a squad would predispose you to think "they're going to be among the best performers," while seeing anyone not using this class for its role makes you think "this person is not going to be one of the best performers."

Thus, the best option is to create a rebalance. If one player option is overpowered compared to the rest in a game where the rest of the options are already capable enough against gameplay, it probably deserves a nerf. If one player option is stronger than the rest but the others are not sufficiently capable against content, they need a buff. It could even be a mix of both: the single stronger player option is still overpowered, but the game content you're fighting against is also overpowered, thus nerfs to both. In the end of this process the goal is that everyone's having fun and choice is a gift, not a curse.

Balance is something developers and players both want because balance is good. Balance is natural. When a game is unbalanced players dread logging in and developers turn in their sleep troubled over the one gameplay experience the players aren't enjoying to its fullest.

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So sick of "new" players whining about frames. What, did your Mesa not get the highest kills? Nidus couldn't get enough stacks? Saryn shines in missions like defense that you're only doing to level stuff, so go solo if you want to get more kills. I build mine for a duration/strength build, mostly built around her molt ability. A re-generator of sorts. There's never a need for nerfs, just adjustments with enemies, like evasive maneuvers instead of running in and being fodder. They don't think like this though, they just want to winge and moan like they do for Overwatch. This isn't that game. This isn't a game where all characters do the same damage in any situation, and are really just different coats of paint. Some excel where others fall short. Don't like it, don't play pubs. They'll probably just puff up their cheeks and whine still though.

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