Marakai

As a new player I am little tired of "dumb" gameplay mechanics like Saryn - press 4 to kill map...

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24 minutes ago, MechaKnight said:

I am a veteran--I was here 3 years earlier than you--so drop your no true Scotsman fallacy, not all veterans support broken game mechanics in exchange for pointless loot grinding.

-You sound like an elitist right out of the gate. Just so know.- You know that most of the complains would be fixed, if the amount of materials dropped from enemies scaled higher the level they were is? People would farm high level missions where mods like over-extended were designed for. Otherwise people will enjoy Nuke frames, for a multitude of reasons. Seeing everything die when you use her right, forma-ing her out. Warframe is a looter shooter first, akin to diablo. 

Have you farmed the Hema in clan research? Do you know... just how many mutagen you need if you have a larger clan? Even a meager clan size of 100 people, (20-30 being friends, or friends of friends. 100 clan size was the smallest would fit everyone) Made it take agonizingly long. Having no scaling requirements of clan dojos, would be counter intuitive, as bigger clans would get things much faster then everyone else, if you have that many people, and need a total of 50 of any rare resource.... 

 

29 minutes ago, MechaKnight said:

You can't tell people they don't have the right to criticize a long-standing issue regarding the game, because they play it just as you do. Many of the people criticizing the lack of difficulty in the face of overextended player range through walls come from more difficult MMOs and team-based games where we actually had to work as a team in order to win the game. We don't care if someone's carrying, because we came to play the game and have fun too.

If you didn't care people carrying, we wouldnt have this conversation. De has gone out of their way to not nerf over-extended. Instead, they have taken a different path. Adding more special missions where Over-extended has little, or lower impact. Open World Areas, raid bosses, and harder missions. Rail jack next, even adding more range mods. (If De felt that power range was a problem, why would they continue to add additional range options beyond Stretch, and Over-extended? Cunning Drift, and an Auger Mod I believe...) You can criticize the game all you want, but what you want to force upon other people does deserve to be limited. Raids, which were the most difficult content at the time, was hardly touched by the majority of the player base. Ignored. People didn't want harder content, even if Raids were lucrative. (I made so much plat from Raids. ) People didn't fight for harder or better designed raids, (even with Frames like Saryn being pointless in said raids.) 

A couple of other points you made, are incorrect. Trinity, and Nyx's nerf for example. Trinity had her damage reduction blessing nerfed, as well as Blessing losing it's infinite range. Nyx and her interaction with over-extended was never touched. Two Nyx's absorbing each other's damage to cheaply, and endlessly nuke every enemy around them was nerfed. (That's why Nyx's absorb does magnetic damage, and Absorb only collects like 10% of magnetic damage? As well as costing energy per damage absorbed to prevent this...)

 

39 minutes ago, MechaKnight said:

The balance issue appears when nearly all forms of gameplay meta-game are overcentralized around a particular player option, such that picking this one option is the one winning choice, all others aren't as good all-around even considering different scenarios. If you wish to think about World of Warcraft to explain this issue, consider the following 2 examples.

A level 100 player is playing within level 45 missions and is dominating due to the strength of their gear. That's a progression issue--there isn't sufficient content for that player to be exercising their power in.

A newly added class named the Deathknight (or anything, make up a name) is about the best overall class, dealing extremely high amounts of damage against multiple targets while also being very durable and fast, rising to become the best class with little or no competition. This is a balance problem: if you're not playing with this overpowered class, you're not making the best meta-game decision. Your teammates may feel overshadowed by the might of this class, and seeing this class in a squad would predispose you to think "they're going to be among the best performers," while seeing anyone not using this class for its role makes you think "this person is not going to be one of the best performers."


All casters in warframe have obvious downsides to them. Nyx, Nova, Ember, Mesa, Mirage, Saryn, Mag, Etc- Have lower armor then other frames around them. Casters are a well known stereotype, that deal more damage, but can't take as much damage. This is what makes Caster's balanced. I can copy and paste an earlier post where I went through different frames effective health. Every frame has a downside of some sort. The Nukers biggest weakness? Squish or be squished gameplay in later levels. 


 

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1 hour ago, MechaKnight said:

If you're bothered by that the immediate self-solution is to downsize your clan tier because it clearly isn't active enough.

Incorrect.  You don't grasp the mechanics of how this works at all.  Oversimplification and nonsense.

1 hour ago, MechaKnight said:

So you say these players should make their own squad, but that's not a solution either.

Say what now?  I do it.  Why can't they?  Too good for that I suppose.  

 

1 hour ago, MechaKnight said:

Thus, the best option is to create a rebalance. If one player option is overpowered compared to the rest in a game where the rest of the options are already capable enough against gameplay, it probably deserves a nerf. If one player option is stronger than the rest but the others are not sufficiently capable against content, they need a buff. It could even be a mix of both: the single stronger player option is still overpowered, but the game content you're fighting against is also overpowered, thus nerfs to both. In the end of this process the goal is that everyone's having fun and choice is a gift, not a curse.

And right here is where you miss the point.  Your idea of fun and my idea of fun can be completely opposites.  Your priorities and my priorities can be completely opposites.

Who then, is right?  Well of course, "I am" is the standard answer no matter who says it, so no, this is not a solution, this is YOUR solution and it literally goes against everything I would want in the game, and additionally, the read of the situation you include at the beginning is YOUR INTERPRETATION, not the fact of the matter.  The analogy doesn't hold.  It holds for a certain type of player, the type that cries about Saryn, or whatever the flavor of the week is.  It doesn't hold for everyone else.  Stop stating opinions as if they are facts, that doesn't fly.

1 hour ago, MechaKnight said:

Balance is something developers and players both want because balance is good. Balance is natural. When a game is unbalanced players dread logging in and developers turn in their sleep troubled over the one gameplay experience the players aren't enjoying to its fullest.

You really don't understand what total balance is, nor do you have any understanding of gray area.

I'm already bored of your rhetorical explanations, come back with something new or don't bother please and thank you.

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2 hours ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

-You sound like an elitist right out of the gate. Just so know.- You know that most of the complains would be fixed, if the amount of materials dropped from enemies scaled higher the level they were is? People would farm high level missions where mods like over-extended were designed for. Otherwise people will enjoy Nuke frames, for a multitude of reasons. Seeing everything die when you use her right, forma-ing her out. Warframe is a looter shooter first, akin to diablo. 

Have you farmed the Hema in clan research? Do you know... just how many mutagen you need if you have a larger clan? Even a meager clan size of 100 people, (20-30 being friends, or friends of friends. 100 clan size was the smallest would fit everyone) Made it take agonizingly long. Having no scaling requirements of clan dojos, would be counter intuitive, as bigger clans would get things much faster then everyone else, if you have that many people, and need a total of 50 of any rare resource....

I was talking to someone who claimed they were a veteran when they only played the game for a year, and said only new players want balance. I'm a veteran and I also want balance. To resolve your material issues, you ask for them to be solved directly, not supported by broken mechanics that harm the quality of gameplay and make the developers push more frame nerfs.

2 hours ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

If you didn't care people carrying, we wouldnt have this conversation. De has gone out of their way to not nerf over-extended. Instead, they have taken a different path. Adding more special missions where Over-extended has little, or lower impact. Open World Areas, raid bosses, and harder missions. Rail jack next, even adding more range mods. (If De felt that power range was a problem, why would they continue to add additional range options beyond Stretch, and Over-extended? Cunning Drift, and an Auger Mod I believe...) You can criticize the game all you want, but what you want to force upon other people does deserve to be limited. Raids, which were the most difficult content at the time, was hardly touched by the majority of the player base. Ignored. People didn't want harder content, even if Raids were lucrative. (I made so much plat from Raids. ) People didn't fight for harder or better designed raids, (even with Frames like Saryn being pointless in said raids.)

I am that person who accidentally carries teams, and I know from the constant complaint threads and DE's history of frame nerfs and anti-ability enemies, they don't like range. Notice how the new range mods are based around 30% range increments, not 45%, which is very telling that they don't like giving players much range. Raids were trivialized by radial spam, and if you recall playing the Jordas Verdict, you'd remember how useful frames like Ember and Saryn were during the 3-console room, elevator, and final boss phases for many groups.

2 hours ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

A couple of other points you made, are incorrect. Trinity, and Nyx's nerf for example. Trinity had her damage reduction blessing nerfed, as well as Blessing losing it's infinite range. Nyx and her interaction with over-extended was never touched. Two Nyx's absorbing each other's damage to cheaply, and endlessly nuke every enemy around them was nerfed. (That's why Nyx's absorb does magnetic damage, and Absorb only collects like 10% of magnetic damage? As well as costing energy per damage absorbed to prevent this...)
 

Blessing lose infinite range because having that much range is detrimental to the game. Nyx's synergy with Overextended was too strong since she didn't care for base damage when she could effectively triple her range and stack infinite damage across a partner Nyx, so DE got rid of infinite-damage nuking without penalty from Overextended. You have contradicted yourself--DE clearly doesn't want range in these examples.

2 hours ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

All casters in warframe have obvious downsides to them. Nyx, Nova, Ember, Mesa, Mirage, Saryn, Mag, Etc- Have lower armor then other frames around them. Casters are a well known stereotype, that deal more damage, but can't take as much damage. This is what makes Caster's balanced. I can copy and paste an earlier post where I went through different frames effective health. Every frame has a downside of some sort. The Nukers biggest weakness? Squish or be squished gameplay in later levels.

What downside? The enemies can barely get close before they die by being stunlocked and killed through walls. If you played the game for even a year you'd notice how rarely you take shield damage to the point where you lose any health at all. The downside is irrelevant when the only risk is nullified by an easily-afforded ability.

56 minutes ago, Klokwerkaos said:

Incorrect.  You don't grasp the mechanics of how this works at all.  Oversimplification and nonsense.

You may as well say that to yourself then downsize your clan like my other alliance partners have done in the past. If you can't keep your clan adequately active you need only remove those members from your first clan until the member count is low enough to fit into the next lowest tier, then destroy the barracks and contact support.

56 minutes ago, Klokwerkaos said:

Say what now?  I do it.  Why can't they?  Too good for that I suppose. 

It's because random matchmaking is just that--random. It's for ease of access to squads to get the gameplay done and have fun without organizing a team first. Recruiting doesn't work because it's too slow, too laborious, you can't remove people who lie about what they're bringing when they join your squad, you have to instruct them exactly how you want them to play and what they bring ,and in the end you'll be dissatisfied when they purposely disobeyed every squad requirement you set. Matchmaking is faster but random. Telling people who encounter frequent problems in matchmaking to make their own squad isn't justified when the complaining portion of the playerbase is too large. There are reasons why Limbo was reworked to his current state, back when he was first released many people wanted to avoid that frame but alas, they could not. People still ask for some frames to be nerfed, and when the portion of people is large enough, it does show that a significant portion of the community is dissatisfied with something. To ignore them is to be like EA and neglect your playerbase on purpose. That's why nerfs and reworks happen--because the entire community is involved. Players ask for change, the developers grant it. We all inherently work towards balance.

56 minutes ago, Klokwerkaos said:

And right here is where you miss the point.  Your idea of fun and my idea of fun can be completely opposites.  Your priorities and my priorities can be completely opposites.

Who then, is right?  Well of course, "I am" is the standard answer no matter who says it, so no, this is not a solution, this is YOUR solution and it literally goes against everything I would want in the game, and additionally, the read of the situation you include at the beginning is YOUR INTERPRETATION, not the fact of the matter.  The analogy doesn't hold.  It holds for a certain type of player, the type that cries about Saryn, or whatever the flavor of the week is.  It doesn't hold for everyone else.  Stop stating opinions as if they are facts, that doesn't fly.

You used all those words to say "I disagree, both of our opinions are just that--opinions--and opinions are subjective." We can agree to disagree. I know for a fact though that when a significant portion of players complain, change happens. Saryn has already been nerfed a few times, may be nerfed again, then some more frames will be nerfed like what usually happens in this ongoing cruel cycle of frame nerfs. Lets stop the cycle and find a permanent solution to abiltiy range abuse, because the current developer path is to nerf frames or create anti-ability mechanics.

While I'm at it, lets address anti-ability enemies and entities in order.

  • Energy Leech Eximus. Steals player energy.
  • Doors with disruptors: inflicts magnetic procs, which remove player energy.
  • The Nullifier. He creates an aura which disables abilities in its vicinity, and has capped damage intake so it would not be broken by single strong shots, but faster shots.
  • The Bursa is a heavily durable enemy created to tank frontal damage, and is generally durable all-around so it effectively resists ability damage simply by resisting any damage. Some variants lob nullifying grenades that nullify abilities. Their damage output is strong.
  • The Comba and Scrambus have helmets which disable abilities in a variety of ways. They are given powerful weapons in order to destroy frames--hopefully the frames that are best at using radial powers are also the weakest ones, so this enemy hopes.
  • The Juggernaut takes extremely little damage except for its weak points, which are nearly impossible to target with an ability. Thus, you use your weapons on it instead.
  • The Nox is designed to take less damage from any point except its head. Most abilities target the torso instead of the head, thus this enemy resists damage from most abilities.
  • Plains of Eidolon night water: inflicts mag proc, removes energy.
  • Eidolons. Radial blast inflicts magnetic proc, removes energy.

The game has shaped up to resist abilities due to our relentless radial spam. When the developers failed to succeed in pushing line-of-sight, this was the alternative to engage players more.

I haven't even talked about current and future sentient enemies, which are surely designed to resist all kinds of strategies based around abilities and damage type status effects.

56 minutes ago, Klokwerkaos said:

You really don't understand what total balance is, nor do you have any understanding of gray area.

I'm already bored of your rhetorical explanations, come back with something new or don't bother please and thank you.

I do understand what balance is as far as I've played many games, run guilds, organized 20/40 man raids, grinded my ass off in grossly terribly game economies, and played games that were a variety of qualities from exceptional to disgustingly shallow. I know that letting gameplay degrade to the point where it is too trivial harms the replay value of the game. Challenging content could only work as long as it can bring challenge, but not when it is trivialized by the same overpowered metagames that trivialized every other attempt at challenge the developers ever pushed towards us. Years ago, the solution was spam stun and damage radials. Today, the solution is to spam stun and damage radials. The years have passed and challenges were released, but the solution is always the same. Arbitrations is the first peek to see how far DE will push invulnerability conditions to prevent radial abilities from being effective.

56 minutes ago, Klokwerkaos said:

I'm already bored of your rhetorical explanations, come back with something new or don't bother please and thank you.

You speak like an elitist, telling people to go away when you don't agree with their opinion. How pathetic. You should revisit my previous post, you could've learned much from it had you understood and reflected back on the game over the years. Oh wait, you only started playing last year.

I recommend both of you to read my previous post more carefully. Take a moment to reflect back on the games across the years.

Resource grind or broken balance is a big part of why people play games. Warframe is generous for most material requirements, but there's still some to be fixed. The gameplay stagnation is the current biggest issue. Line-of-sight is a range fix that doesn't touch any mod magnitudes but reduces the occurences of players nuking enemies through walls. It's a big win across the majority of players.

Edited by MechaKnight
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On 2018-11-25 at 9:22 AM, WhiteMarker said:

This has nothing to do with being a Veteran or a new player.
This has to do with simply understanding basic stuff. You are joining public matches, you are joining random groups.
It's just obvious that you will get paired with someone playing a nuke. It's just about chances...

If you don't like that playstyle, just make your own custom groups without nukes. It's that easy.
And then try to effectively do missions against level 100+ enemies.
Sure, weapons can kill these enemies aswell. But missions take way more time this way. And stuff like Survival becomes unplayable, because your kill-speed just drops at one point or another.
If this is fun for you, power to you. As I said, play solo or with a custom group.

You don't like the nuke-playstyle. Nukes may don't like your "boring" playstyle. Accept the fact that everyone has their own way of playing. Don't try to force your way on to others.

This is what I was going to say. I'm just going to use Onslaught as the example, and sort of extrapolate the point since the OP mentioned it. If you're having a problem with high level 'nukers' in onslaught. A mission I might add that is ALL about efficiency to maximize it's return....don't play pubs. I hardly ever play public matches, mostly cause i am a limbo player and the community generally hate(d i'll be optimstic and put that in the past tense) his existence so i just learned to do everything by myself to avoid being flamed. ANYWAY the point is, just custom match (or solo). You said you started with some friends, so if that's the case just build squads that don't use those frames. I have a friend who ONLY plays melee and while I get the frustration, like if I'm Mesa he's.... really not getting kills unless, I'm actively not using my abilities or he runs off somewhere else. He doesn't complain about it though. He knows it's his choice to play how he does, just like it's my choice and prerogative to be able to play the frames I want in a given mission. The beauty of warframe is that there is no frame that's TRULY unplayable, will others have an easier time of it? Sure. But that doesn't mean you can't use a frame that's generally considered low-tier and not succeed. Just look for people/groups that fit your playstyle better

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28 minutes ago, (PS4)purpleskullgamin said:

I can only assume OP is a nidus main who's really just salty about not being able to get stacks.

If you build your nidus right you don't need stacks.  Nidus main, stopped using stacks long ago.  

Late game nidus is about building a meat wall, and maybe CC sometimes in a pinch, but the stacks thing becomes inefficient unless you put together a pre made for long term arbitration (over an hour), otherwise it's a waste of time.  Otherwise it's easier just to one shot everything in your way with a myriad of aoe room clearing weapons, which consequently, can be used by any frame making this whole debate pointless, again... and again... and again...

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21 hours ago, W3zeer said:

Dude, you should stop playing word games of this length, noone is going to read that. It's no shame in having a different opinion than your opponent but what you do is systematically trying to ignore everything he writes and hammer on perceived mistakes in argumentational style. In the end that makes you look pedantic. This is an exchange of opinions no facts are being established. Also all this arguing of what frame is best in very high level environments is done in a threat about clearing low level maps, way missing the point.

In the end, reaching high level enemies in warframe is no show of skill but only endurance. Chose one of several easy to follow strategies and you can't fail. It's great AoE makes you feel powerful and all, but maybe you should think of the other 3 players in your squad. If you're able to delete everything to shoot at before they get a chance to see it, those 3 will feel the opposite of powerful, i.e. useless. Usually I play games to enjoy the gameplay, not to look at end of mission screens, but hey that's just me. If the majority wants to play a pickup simulator, who am I to criticize thise? I'm only writing because maybe enough ppl are feeling that way that player satisfaction might take a significant hit if enough players are feeling that way and decide spending their time elsewhere when they get nothing else to do than spam a single button 90% of the time. In that case the devs should know about it and they might decide to change a few things. And since lots of those tactics have been adressed in the past it might seem the devs do somewhat agree with that thought.

Actually I read the back and forth between them.  Buttface is the one that's being incredibly dismissive about anything ultra posts.  Seemingly going out of his way to ignore anything Ultra gives as proof to debunk the claims made by buttface.  You can slam Ultra for having lengthy/wordy posts and the fact that their overall discussion has boarderline gone off the main topic to debate other things than the current point at hand.  But then Buttface is just as liable as Ultra is.I don't see why you're mentioning skill here.  I believe Buttface was the person who first brought it up in their argument and Ultra was the one claiming there really isn't skill in WF (outside pvp) and there never has been any skillful/tactical play in WF. 

"but maybe you should think of the other 3 players in your squad."  Unless you're some how griefing the only thought that needs to be put forth when pubbing is to revive people when they go down or if there is some way you can interact with the person in a unique way.  Like Nidus using link on someone who'd greatly benefit from it.  or noticing a nova in your squad and try to combo with their slowva with your fracturing crush.  People join pubs because they're fast, easy, yield the best amount for resources, and can be potentially carried.  If you join a pub for any of those reasons then you have no right to complain about who you're teamed up with unless they're griefing or doing something outside the games bounds.  If you care about having a specific experience when you game then you play solo or with a pre made squad.  That's what those options exist for.

"Usually I play games to enjoy the gameplay."  Passive aggressive comment that doesn't belong.  Not to mention fun is subjective.  Warframe is a game of numbers and efficiency.  The side effect from this is the power trip fantasy that players can make possible with modding frames and weapons and combinations of the two.  If you're not getting that as often as you'd like then go to a situation you can control.  which is solo/pre built squad.  I am a person who very much likes playing melee and frames that boost melee potential.  For the longest time my frame of choice was Valkyr.  I ran into plenty of games because I couldn't play her in a group of casters.  What did I do?  I stopped playing her in endurance based missions.  I play her in things like capture or defection etc.  Or if I really wanted to endurance with her i'd go solo.

At best the only reasonable excuse you can make about being forced into pubs is based around the argument of spawns.  In solo spawns are smaller.  So resource gain is not efficient.  So why are things the way they are?  for balancing purposes.  If solo was efficient people wouldn't play together.  The only way to have cooperation is to force it.  That being said Warframe isn't a game that's built around a squad.  If this were indeed a thing then frames would actually synergize a lot more often.  Instead they often don't or just dwarf another frame entirely.  I'm betting they didn't go that route because kits might feel incomplete without specific frames by their side.  And as I already said this game is really just a grind game.  So that's what everything is balanced around.  You can play how you want to play.  But it might not be the most efficient.  Or you can give up some control on how you play.  And you get things done faster.  These are your options.  Pick one.  If you don't want to then don't play.  Game isn't for you.

 

Finally the game has far and beyond moved passed press 4 to win.  Saryn in this case is being far over simplified.  And that's really just because OP doesn't understand her.  And it doesn't help that you have other players coming in and giving this person a false sense of right just because they're salty players that don't like the game's base truths.  So they rally behind the ignorant individual.  I'm not going to sit here and lie to your face saying I enjoy being carried.  I don't.  But sometimes i'd rather get stuff done.  If I want to play a specific way I have that option.  And people acting like solo/squad making is unreasonable when it's really not.  They just want their cake and be able to eat it too.  They're the unreasonable ones.

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On 2018-11-30 at 3:27 AM, MechaKnight said:

Notice how the new range mods are based around 30% range increments, not 45%, which is very telling that they don't like giving players much range.

If they didn't like range, they wouldn't have added a cheaper version of Stretch. Yes it has lower range by 15%, but it is also lower mod cost, and comes with a set bonus. 
If it was as strong as stretch, it would have replaced it all together. Augur Message does the same thing with Continuity. Lower effect, then the original version, cheaper mod cost wise, and with a set bonus. Are you going to say they don't like duration cause Augur Message isn't as strong? 

If they truly didn't like range, they wouldn't let you use Stretch, and Auger Reach together at the same time. 
 

On 2018-11-30 at 3:27 AM, MechaKnight said:

Blessing lose infinite range because having that much range is detrimental to the game. Nyx's synergy with Overextended was too strong since she didn't care for base damage when she could effectively triple her range and stack infinite damage across a partner Nyx, so DE got rid of infinite-damage nuking without penalty from Overextended. You have contradicted yourself--DE clearly doesn't want range in these examples.

So... DE hates range. Hates range so much that they don't nerf Nyx's absorb range.... and instead just stop her from collecting infinite damage on absorb. You contradicted yourself here. If the range was the broken part, why didn't they shrink the range of absorb in a fashion similar to how they adjusted Ember's ultimate? No no! The infinite millions of damage wasn't the busted part. It was the range! 

Nyx's range on absorb was never broken. It was the infinite damage it could deal, with very little energy. Two Nyx's together, with 75% power efficiency, could alternate detonating and absorbing around a defense mission. The other nyx becoming a damage bank for the other. Feeding each other over and over, to the point nothing could survive. Very quickly get to the point where anything would die once they reach millions of damage. That's why most of the changes to her absorb... was regarding energy cost, and stopping the infinite loop of her ultimate with another nyx. Trinity's blessing was more broken from the old invincibility she gave everyone... to the possibly 99% damage reduction then her range ever gave her. 
 

On 2018-11-30 at 3:27 AM, MechaKnight said:

What downside? The enemies can barely get close before they die by being stunlocked and killed through walls. If you played the game for even a year you'd notice how rarely you take shield damage to the point where you lose any health at all. The downside is irrelevant when the only risk is nullified by an easily-afforded ability.

Downsides? Saryn is squishy, has soft CC. With several other casters having built in protection of some sort, while Saryn has limited damage reduction unless she blocks with her melee weapon. She can deal out damage, she certainly can't take it. Her abilities being AoE is really the only selling point of her. Without that, her flaws become glaringly obvious. I've used her to solo level 300+ enemies. But if she gets hit, it's over for her. A maximum of around 2900 effective health, isn't much compared to other frames. 
 

On 2018-11-30 at 3:27 AM, MechaKnight said:

It's because random matchmaking is just that--random. It's for ease of access to squads to get the gameplay done and have fun without organizing a team first. Recruiting doesn't work because it's too slow, too laborious, you can't remove people who lie about what they're bringing when they join your squad, you have to instruct them exactly how you want them to play and what they bring ,and in the end you'll be dissatisfied when they purposely disobeyed every squad requirement you set. 

This is disingenuous at best. I have finished many raids, many raid bosses with randoms, and filled in for farming groups. If a leader doesn't like the look of you? He'll disband, re-invite everyone he likes and won't give you a single thought. Public matchmaking is just that Public. It's random who you are paired up with. Yet people manage to recruit for the roles they want for PUG eidolons all the time. 

"Looking for another low level player to partner with" You check the responses, and kick anyone you think wouldn't jive with you. -Just like every other group that invites somebody they don't like the look of.

On 2018-11-30 at 3:27 AM, MechaKnight said:

You used all those words to say "I disagree, both of our opinions are just that--opinions--and opinions are subjective." We can agree to disagree. I know for a fact though that when a significant portion of players complain, change happens. Saryn has already been nerfed a few times, may be nerfed again, then some more frames will be nerfed like what usually happens in this ongoing cruel cycle of frame nerfs. Lets stop the cycle and find a permanent solution to abiltiy range abuse, because the current developer path is to nerf frames or create anti-ability mechanics.

Saryn got nerfed, then she got buffed. Then she got nerfed, with a buff attached to the end of her kit. This happens to all frames throughout the game. This happened to Excalibur when he got reworked. Nerfing Exalted blade, then tweaking it later so you could mod it. This happened to Valkyr when Hysteria got reworked. Mag got rebalanced twice I believe. Valkyr and Excalibur's nerfs had nothing to do with range, tweaking their ultimates that are independent from range. Banshee, and her quake still bypasses obstacles. Resonating quake functioning as another nuke that ignores terrain. Despite Banshee's ultimate being cheesed multiple times in the past, they only nerf they ever did to her, was change resonating quake more engaging to use, instead of just being glued to the ground for large periods of time. Meanwhile, you can still use her normal version of this ultimate like that. 

Hate to break it to you. But I haven't seen a single MMO that don't tweak classes constantly through out its life cycle. Like how they tweaked Chroma.... or any of the other half a dozen frames. Limbo, Hydroid... Etc who weren't broken around range. I have more examples, like this. I find it interesting that Miasma was bugged for the longest time that it wasn't doing damage properly. They could have left Miasma as it was. Yet they still gave it the capability to do double damage, then it used to on enemies under spores. 
 

On 2018-11-30 at 3:27 AM, MechaKnight said:

While I'm at it, lets address anti-ability enemies and entities in order.

  • Energy Leech Eximus. Steals player energy.
  • Doors with disruptors: inflicts magnetic procs, which remove player energy.
  • The Nullifier. He creates an aura which disables abilities in its vicinity, and has capped damage intake so it would not be broken by single strong shots, but faster shots.
  • The Bursa is a heavily durable enemy created to tank frontal damage, and is generally durable all-around so it effectively resists ability damage simply by resisting any damage. Some variants lob nullifying grenades that nullify abilities. Their damage output is strong.
  • The Comba and Scrambus have helmets which disable abilities in a variety of ways. They are given powerful weapons in order to destroy frames--hopefully the frames that are best at using radial powers are also the weakest ones, so this enemy hopes.
  • The Juggernaut takes extremely little damage except for its weak points, which are nearly impossible to target with an ability. Thus, you use your weapons on it instead.
  • The Nox is designed to take less damage from any point except its head. Most abilities target the torso instead of the head, thus this enemy resists damage from most abilities.
  • Plains of Eidolon night water: inflicts mag proc, removes energy.
  • Eidolons. Radial blast inflicts magnetic proc, removes energy.

You missed several btw. Ancient Disruptors/healers who have been in the game since 5 years ago who can reduce power damage by 90% or prevent ability procs from allies around them. 

You missed the Grineer Drone in Nightmare LoR that protected all Grineer inside, that constantly spawned during the mission. Arbitration Drones do essentially the same thing. 

Also ignoring the old OG Stalker who had "dispel" which would cancel out any other warframe ability. Now I believe he is just fully immune. These have been in the game for a long time. 

And juggernaut is not immune to warframe damage. I can parasitic link him as a Nidus, even without a weak spot exposed. Exalted Blade can, or was able to bypass his armor. 

Bursa's and Scrambus are so bad at nullifying warframe powers, that they basically don't hamper most powers at all. Nullifiers, drones, and disruptors, and eximus are the main methods of negating warframe powers. Most of them only do it temporarily, and can bypassed in different ways. 
 

On 2018-11-30 at 3:27 AM, MechaKnight said:

The game has shaped up to resist abilities due to our relentless radial spam. When the developers failed to succeed in pushing line-of-sight, this was the alternative to engage players more.

Not quite. The game has shaped up to be more engaging by requiring players to deal with enemies who are inhibiting their powers. Popping, or killing enemies before players go back to full effectiveness. 

On 2018-11-30 at 3:27 AM, MechaKnight said:

I do understand what balance is as far as I've played many games, run guilds, organized 20/40 man raids, grinded my ass off in grossly terribly game economies, and played games that were a variety of qualities from exceptional to disgustingly shallow. I know that letting gameplay degrade to the point where it is too trivial harms the replay value of the game. Challenging content could only work as long as it can bring challenge, but not when it is trivialized by the same overpowered metagames that trivialized every other attempt at challenge the developers ever pushed towards us. Years ago, the solution was spam stun and damage radials. Today, the solution is to spam stun and damage radials. The years have passed and challenges were released, but the solution is always the same. Arbitrations is the first peek to see how far DE will push invulnerability conditions to prevent radial abilities from being effective.

Arbitrations is a bad point for you to make. The drones function like advanced nullifiers, however when you destroy one with a weapon, it explodes dealing significant damage to all enemies under its protection. These drones are only their to make it more engaging. 

De is actively adding new mission types where AoE spam is no real problem. We will see how Railjack and ship to ship battles function. 
 

On 2018-11-30 at 3:27 AM, MechaKnight said:

I haven't even talked about current and future sentient enemies, which are surely designed to resist all kinds of strategies based around abilities and damage type status effects.

Much to your surprise, I'm sure. People will bring and use whatever frames make their mission the easiest. If Saryn can't handle the situation, frames like Chroma will take the spotlight. A few good lanka shots later, and more trivialized content. 

You might want to re-check your definition of Balance. Cause AoE damage based warframes can't tank like Inaros or Nidus. While CC frames, can't damage like the dps frames can. Inaros is balanced with his health as his damage abilities are low. Yet Saryn can easily outdamage him, but doesn't offer the same levels of CC or tackiness. This is called balanced. 

The only unbalanced warframes are probably Octavia, or Nidus. (They scale insanely well.)

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48 minutes ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

The only unbalanced warframes are probably Octavia, or Nidus. (They scale insanely well.)

I would argue neither are unbalanced, or everything is unbalanced.

Every warframe except the few on bottom tier that are in drastic need of attention has somewhere in the game it shines particularly well in.

Nidus and octavia happen to be warframes that shine particularly well in many areas, but that doesn't make them unbalanced, in particular there are simply bits of content they are simply not welcome in, eidolons being the most notable, but they have their drawbacks and limitations too.  Ever play nidus with an overzealous harrow on your squad?  this is just one example.  They are really really great frames, that are intentionally gated, and someone has to be good at something, and even then, neither of these frames is "the best" at anything they do, they are just good at several things if you build and play them properly.

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I have to agree with @MechaKnight here: at the end of the day, "if you don't like this frame, make your own squad" is not a valid excuse, because one of the core components to playing Warframe is being able to easily join other players when running any mission, and pushing players to isolate themselves, or otherwise make their multiplayer experience far more convoluted than it needs to be, is good for neither the game nor its community. Moreover, it fails to address the core issue at hand, which is that some frames are simply not fun to play with. If a hypothetical frame had the power to kill any of their allies at the press of a button, or even permanently destroy their allies' frames and weapons from their inventory, the answer to that shouldn't be "just make your own squad if you don't like playing with this frame", it should be "this frame is unpleasant to play alongside by design and should be changed". In this case, I'd also be willing to bet that there would still be some community of people who'd defend this frame for their "fantasy", and push back because they want to be able to play the game "their way", even if "their way" of playing the game hinges upon making it less fun for others. That alone is not a sufficient defense when the fun those players have comes at the expense of many more.

While the above is an extreme example, the same arguments can be applied to frames that are currently notorious for the issues they cause, namely Saryn, Limbo, Equinox/Ember at times, etc. The problem with these frames isn't that players aren't going out of their way to avoid playing with them, but that these frames give players incentive to do so in the first place. In all of these cases, these frames typically generate frustration because they remove interaction from missions: Saryn, Equinox and Ember (also Volt) are all capable of single-handedly killing all enemies in a large radius and through walls, given the right enemy level, and so quicker than anyone else can go around and fight them. Limbo is a special case in that his kit is built to remove physical interaction between different elements of the game, which just so happens to include allies. In all of these cases, these frames are not great to play with, because while it's okay for some players to kill more enemies than others, it's generally not considered okay for a single player to be able to kill all the enemies, and so without the consent of their allies.

My personal take on Saryn in particular I'd say is quite simple: her current kit is mostly fine, but her Spores just need to be unable to deal lethal damage. If Saryn could bring all enemies down to 1 health from across the map, she may in fact become amazingly fun to play with, because she'd become one of the best kill enablers in the game. In most cases, there wouldn't be much of a difference in clear speeds, because those enemies would be so weakened that they'd die just as quickly, but the difference in gameplay would be massive for Saryn and her allies, because everyone would have a fair chance of killing those weakened enemies, and Saryn herself could have an added layer of gameplay from being able to hold her plague for longer in certain locations. I don't doubt that there'd be players who'd push back against this, but overall I'd still say it could be a win-win for everyone involved.

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vor 3 Stunden schrieb (XB1)Knight Raime:

"but maybe you should think of the other 3 players in your squad."  Unless you're some how griefing the only thought that needs to be put forth when pubbing is to revive people when they go down or if there is some way you can interact with the person in a unique way.

Well, I'm not mad at you if you play that way, but I don't. Usually I like support roles most, warframe doesn't really offer that, but I can still decide not to bring my Ignis to any low level mission to give my fellow tenno something to do. I like the weapon for syndicate missions, but I don't use it f.e. in lith fissure. Sure, I'd save a few seconds each run, but I don't like seeing low MR rank players trying to fight but ending up with 0-1% damage dealt. But as I said, noone can force you to be a teamplayer, egoism is fine. Just don't expect other players to cater to you then and not ask for nerfs on things they don't like.

 

vor 3 Stunden schrieb (XB1)Knight Raime:

Passive aggressive comment that doesn't belong.  Not to mention fun is subjective.  Warframe is a game of numbers and efficiency

The tone of this threat has been more than passive aggresive, so excuse me if I'm not worried about microaggressions. And it does belong, since you show with your very next sentence that you argue from the same standpoint. Different players have different opinions of what this game should be about. Each are equally valuable and unlike you, I haven't stated mine as a fact. I don't care too much about being most effective when I can't have fun doing it. Still managed to do almost everything in the game. But like I said, that's just for me, but I find it a little bit funny to see ppl trying to take these power fantasies to an extreme when together in a group. Usually one person feels powerful, the rest collects loot. Giving the advice to play solo or in premades is the equivalent of forcing your playstyle onto them, nothing inherently bad, but it in turn again gives them the right to try to do the same to you.

I'm not overly bothered myself tbh. Warframe is in a state where it can't just go to being a challenging, balanced game, for that the entire damage, weapon and AI system would have to be reconstructed and I don't see that happen. What I'm adressing is the absolute lack of logic here. I always read this "don't force me..." stuff. Ofc we're infringing on each others games, it's a multiplayer game. The question is are we willing to restrain ourselfs and if we're not, how do we claim that others can't do the same?

 

vor 3 Stunden schrieb (XB1)Knight Raime:

Finally the game has far and beyond moved passed press 4 to win.  Saryn in this case is being far over simplified.  And that's really just because OP doesn't understand her.  And it doesn't help that you have other players coming in and giving this person a false sense of right just because they're salty players that don't like the game's base truths.  So they rally behind the ignorant individual.  I'm not going to sit here and lie to your face saying I enjoy being carried.  I don't.  But sometimes i'd rather get stuff done.  If I want to play a specific way I have that option.  And people acting like solo/squad making is unreasonable when it's really not.  They just want their cake and be able to eat it too.  They're the unreasonable ones.

OP writes for a low level environment, where press 4 to win still works perfectly fine. I agree though because other frames absolutly outshine her in that regard 😄 . Also complaining about "passive agression" and then use ad hominems don't mix to well, I'm not offended though 😉 . Just food for thought: Do you think the grind would be quicker, slower or the same, if missions would take longer on an average? I'd think it would stay the same, as I would think the devs envision a certain time players are supposed to grind and adjust the numbers accordingly. I could be wrong though.

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Am 25.11.2018 um 18:13 schrieb Marakai:

I know vets who play level 200+ enemies may see her different  but as a fairy new player I am really tired of just baby sitting next to Saryns who just press 2 keys and I just see Affinity numbers pop out around map. 99% of Saryns just stand in middle of map and spam one-two abillity. I know they are other AOE nukers- but many of them start to scale bad at around 80+ lvl with their nukes from what I have seen, but Saryn damage is toxic and corrosive so she scales probably best with content making even fun missions/events with high level enemies trivial and boring. Many times me and other 3 players on Onslaught or Survival/Defense just stand and hope we can kill something or use our "non-AOE-map nuke-press-one-button" abilities before Saryn kills whole map using so much skill as pressing 2 buttons.

I know Saryn is not alone, Equinox can do something simillar, Octavia can afk, Ember was a problem with it but I heard she was nerfed long time ago.

Anyway I don't understand why DE design those frames with such brainless gameplay. It's not only not fun to play with such frames as other less-AOE frames (or non-meta frames general), it makes mission trivial, boring and not challanging. Not to mention it's a very selfish design since it does nothing for team apart from taking away fun.

Veterans might don't care, I understand- different perspective. But from new player point of few (+ my friends who also started WG with me) it's just not fun to play with.

This is just my opinion as new player.

And I don't want to be matchmade with MR 0-10 players who leave hydron after 5 waves, when I want to Level efficiently... As ppl already stated: Just do your own, closed groups. Enemies are scaling with the number of players in your group so no need to worry that you will need a MR 20+ that carries you through the missions without a saryn. 

Btw. Saryn has just seen a "nerf" (not actually for veterans) a couple of weeks ago when Miasmas damage was halved. If you don't want to feel this powerful in a game go play fortnite. 

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Am 25.11.2018 um 18:13 schrieb Marakai:

I know vets who play level 200+ enemies may see her different  but as a fairy new player I am really tired of just baby sitting next to Saryns who just press 2 keys and I just see Affinity numbers pop out around map. 99% of Saryns just stand in middle of map and spam one-two abillity. I know they are other AOE nukers- but many of them start to scale bad at around 80+ lvl with their nukes from what I have seen, but Saryn damage is toxic and corrosive so she scales probably best with content making even fun missions/events with high level enemies trivial and boring. Many times me and other 3 players on Onslaught or Survival/Defense just stand and hope we can kill something or use our "non-AOE-map nuke-press-one-button" abilities before Saryn kills whole map using so much skill as pressing 2 buttons.

I know Saryn is not alone, Equinox can do something simillar, Octavia can afk, Ember was a problem with it but I heard she was nerfed long time ago.

Anyway I don't understand why DE design those frames with such brainless gameplay. It's not only not fun to play with such frames as other less-AOE frames (or non-meta frames general), it makes mission trivial, boring and not challanging. Not to mention it's a very selfish design since it does nothing for team apart from taking away fun.

Veterans might don't care, I understand- different perspective. But from new player point of few (+ my friends who also started WG with me) it's just not fun to play with.

This is just my opinion as new player.

And I don't want to be matchmade with MR 0-10 players who leave hydron after 5 waves, when I want to Level efficiently... As ppl already stated: Just do your own, closed groups. Enemies are scaling with the number of players in your group so no need to worry that you will need a MR 20+ that carries you through the missions without a saryn. 

Btw. Saryn has just seen a "nerf" (not actually for veterans) a couple of weeks ago when Miasmas damage was halved. If you don't want to feel this powerful in a game go play fortnite. 

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Other people should not change the way that they want to play the game to accommodate you. Solo and preconstructed group play exist. 

The thing with "nuke" frames is that they might destroy lower level content (as will most guns when built well...), but they won't instantly explode a map full of level ~200's, which is what they're mostly used for, and they don't exactly shine in things like Arbitration / Index.

Saryn, specifically, is a weird thing to focus on, managing spores is it's own little mini-game. It really isn't just a case of "Press button to kill map". 

I love my Saryn, but I only really use her for ESO; spore damage never really gets to build up in normal missions. 

Just be thankful you've never had to experience the old Nova, which not only was in a constant state of exploding the whole map, but stole all of your affinity for the privilege. 

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vor 1 Minute schrieb Yousho:

Other people should not change the way that they want to play the game to accommodate you. Solo and preconstructed group play exist.  

So they should change the way they play to accomodate you then? You're going to spin in a circle forever when arguing with this.

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21 minutes ago, W3zeer said:

So they should change the way they play to accomodate you then? You're going to spin in a circle forever when arguing with this.

False equivalence. I don't mind them not nuking and trying to play more slowly, regardless of what I'm doing. So, no, they don't have to change how they play.
Also, I'm not typically a big fan of the nuke play-style myself, I only really break out Saryn for ESO. 

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Play style is on the preference of the player. I think Saryn is perfectly fine.

I have even seen frames that I don't exactly prefer being used to their advantages, and the way it is done is efficient. I think it is okay. 

I think a player should play as any frame they want. Personally Saryn Prime is my favorite frame(also my 1st prime), and has been for a long time. I find her play style to be very useful, and it is something that I simply prefer.

I have been trying out other frames too, other than Saryn, so I can gain mastery(almost at 15) and see what else I like and so far my 2nd favorite has to be Nezha.

It is just all in how you build the frame, what mission you're doing, and how you play.

 

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vor einer Stunde schrieb Yousho:

Solo and preconstructed group play exist.

There is no false equivalency, this is what you said, do what I say or get out of my group. Also, do you seriously expect a brand new player who's in the process of clearing the earth nodes to put together premade groups?  And furthermore, you force them to not shoot at anything because everything is dead before they see it, this is not letting them play at their pace because they wont do anything when you're leaving nothing. Again you're forcing a specific playstyle on them. Like I said earlier, there's nothing wrong with that per se, but don't try then to argue they can't do the same to you by getting a higher authority (the Devs) involved.

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13 minutes ago, W3zeer said:

There is no false equivalency, this is what you said, do what I say or get out of my group. Also, do you seriously expect a brand new player who's in the process of clearing the earth nodes to put together premade groups?  And furthermore, you force them to not shoot at anything because everything is dead before they see it, this is not letting them play at their pace because they wont do anything when you're leaving nothing. Again you're forcing a specific playstyle on them. Like I said earlier, there's nothing wrong with that per se, but don't try then to argue they can't do the same to you by getting a higher authority (the Devs) involved.

Is a false equivalency based on the assumption that "other players forcing them" to not play just for being in the same mission. Low level noobs choose not to shoot, choose not to participate. This is why they can leave, or find a new mission if they aren't enjoying their experience. They cannot dictate a group they don't own. If they do decide to host a group, they are fully capable of tailoring it to what they want. 

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vor 15 Minuten schrieb (PS4)UltraKardas:

Is a false equivalency based on the assumption that "other players forcing them" to not play just for being in the same mission. Low level noobs choose not to shoot, choose not to participate. This is why they can leave, or find a new mission if they aren't enjoying their experience. They cannot dictate a group they don't own. If they do decide to host a group, they are fully capable of tailoring it to what they want. 

Wow, sorry but this shows some serious disconnect from reality. A noob can't choose to shoot or not to shoot when that decision is made for him by another player. I've seen matches where MR1 excals were desperatly trying to get ahead an Ember with an Ignis just to get a shot in only to fail miserably. Saying this one player that claims all enemies wasn't the dictator of that particular group is a statement that needs some serious backup, right now I'm not convinced. And then wanting to force noobs out of public matches is indeed you wanting them to cater to your needs, if you want to acknowledge that or not. It is YOU who expects someone else to not do something, i.e. asking for changes/nerfs, so in return you have to accept the request they have that you let them play without going out of their way to have their definition of fun. You say no to the latter, so they have every right to deny you the former. Also players have no tools at all to control a group even if they are hosting it so your second point goes nowhere aswell. Also you totally ignored how realistic it even was to expect noobs to always make their premades.

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Support frames in this game is becoming rather irrelevant and kind of pointless in a game where dps frames can just kill everything with ease. I find sole dps frame like saryn not to interesting because i like to support my team in other ways like healing! Its why im more interested in frames like inaros, night form equinox, and even garuda when build up to 200 power strength. All three of these frames make for unique and different playstyles that keeps me coming back to them then being a room cleaner.

Edited by moostar95
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On 2018-11-25 at 12:13 PM, Marakai said:

I know vets who play level 200+ enemies may see her different  but as a fairy new player I am really tired of just baby sitting next to Saryns who just press 2 keys and I just see Affinity numbers pop out around map. 99% of Saryns just stand in middle of map and spam one-two abillity. I know they are other AOE nukers- but many of them start to scale bad at around 80+ lvl with their nukes from what I have seen, but Saryn damage is toxic and corrosive so she scales probably best with content making even fun missions/events with high level enemies trivial and boring. Many times me and other 3 players on Onslaught or Survival/Defense just stand and hope we can kill something or use our "non-AOE-map nuke-press-one-button" abilities before Saryn kills whole map using so much skill as pressing 2 buttons.

I know Saryn is not alone, Equinox can do something simillar, Octavia can afk, Ember was a problem with it but I heard she was nerfed long time ago.

Anyway I don't understand why DE design those frames with such brainless gameplay. It's not only not fun to play with such frames as other less-AOE frames (or non-meta frames general), it makes mission trivial, boring and not challanging. Not to mention it's a very selfish design since it does nothing for team apart from taking away fun.

Veterans might don't care, I understand- different perspective. But from new player point of few (+ my friends who also started WG with me) it's just not fun to play with.

This is just my opinion as new player.

Then you're going to love Volt - literally, all he does is just sit in one place and press 4. He is the very definition of press 4 to win and can out dps Saryn with the press of a single button - just bring 3-4 corrosive projections and Volt will do the rest.

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On 2018-11-25 at 12:13 PM, Marakai said:

I know vets who play level 200+ enemies may see her different  but as a fairy new player I am really tired of just baby sitting next to Saryns who just press 2 keys and I just see Affinity numbers pop out around map. 99% of Saryns just stand in middle of map and spam one-two abillity. I know they are other AOE nukers- but many of them start to scale bad at around 80+ lvl with their nukes from what I have seen, but Saryn damage is toxic and corrosive so she scales probably best with content making even fun missions/events with high level enemies trivial and boring. Many times me and other 3 players on Onslaught or Survival/Defense just stand and hope we can kill something or use our "non-AOE-map nuke-press-one-button" abilities before Saryn kills whole map using so much skill as pressing 2 buttons.

I know Saryn is not alone, Equinox can do something simillar, Octavia can afk, Ember was a problem with it but I heard she was nerfed long time ago.

Anyway I don't understand why DE design those frames with such brainless gameplay. It's not only not fun to play with such frames as other less-AOE frames (or non-meta frames general), it makes mission trivial, boring and not challanging. Not to mention it's a very selfish design since it does nothing for team apart from taking away fun.

Veterans might don't care, I understand- different perspective. But from new player point of few (+ my friends who also started WG with me) it's just not fun to play with.

This is just my opinion as new player.

As a vet player, I definitely care. I also agree with you.

You know why DE allows Saryn, Equinox, Mesa, Volt, and a couple of other outliers to utterly dominate small defense maps and make gameplay boring for everyone else unlucky enough to be teamed with elitist try-hards and their OP, kill-hog builds?

Money. Those 'Frames and their broken powers make DE money, regardless of whether you all care to admit that or not.

Yes it's arguably wrong to allow this to continue due to profit motive, but that's how things appear to be. Now to those of you that think that DE allowing this sort of thing is wrong, make your respectful opinion heard on the forums, Reddit, and Twitch...and vote with your wallet. Stop buying plat and Prime Access with real money.

Don't like obnoxious, OP builds in your matches? Leave as early as possible when you see one and find another session. It's not an ideal solution, but at least it spares you several minutes of boredom watching someone else clear the level for you.

For me, this has gotten to be so bad that when I see a Saryn, Equinox, Octavia, Volt, or Banshee on an Endless Defense map, I leave and tell everyone why I'm leaving.

"A Saryn? No thanks, I want to able to kill stuff. I'm out" *clicks Abort Mission*

"A Volt? No thanks, I want to able to kill stuff and not run around like a Russian Dwarf Hamster on crack. See you." *clicks Abort Mission*

You get the idea.

On 2018-11-25 at 12:44 PM, Betsill said:

You need to learn how saryn works/actually play her  before  making  ignorant  non-arguments.  She doesn't just  press 1 button or 2.  You have to maintain her spores once you place them by using your 3 and 4. You also have to balance your dmg. kill to fast you lose your  spores,  kill  to slow  and  you get overrun.

Oh please. THIS half-arsed defense / justification of Saryn's brokenness again...? *rolls eyes*

Unpopular opinion time: 

This so-called "required effort" doesn't change or even justify the fact that Saryn can easily rack up 400+ kills by Wave 10 on Hydron and leave everyone else fighting over scraps. 

No - you're not doing anyone except yourself a favor by killing everything in (and out of) sight as quickly as possible. You're thinking only of yourself and people think this way are part of the problem. Why? Because your way of playing and willingly exploiting broken and OP abilities has a negative effect on everyone that's unfortunate enough to be stuck with you.

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