As a new player I am little tired of "dumb" gameplay mechanics like Saryn - press 4 to kill map...

[racooperii]

10 minutes ago, Mach25 said:

For Brevity's sake, I'll compress this thread with some select quotes ending with a proposed solution. The Dilemma:

 

Explanation and confirmation:

 

Proposed solution:

 

 

I'm not a fan of the solution. If for on other reason than it kind of screws people who run Solo like myself, and that almost always gets ignored in these demands for Nerfs.

The best solution, if you ask me, is to allow players to control PUG matchmaking tags, letting you select which Frames you would rather be(or not be) paired up with or maybe even limiting the MOD Capacity used, so if you would rather play with people more in line with your current strength then you can. Is it a bit more complicated then just doing a flat reduction of an ability? Yes. But I think this would be a far far better solution that has the potential to make Most parties happy.

New players can then avoid running into a Vet who looks at level 20-40 mobs and they die, and allows Vets to keep the high powered frames they need for higher level runs, and lets not forget it doesn't screw over the Solo Frames.

[racooperii]

14 minutes ago, MirageKnight said:

That's definitely a fair point and I agree. I honestly believe if the grind wasn't so mind-numbing-ly and arbitrarily tedious at times, there wouldn't be as much of a need to exploit the game as much as possible to help alleviate the monotony as you put it.

It still doesn't justify allowing an ability (or combination of abilities) to continue to be stupidly overpowered or exploitable to the extent that other players have to suffer due to someone else's need to "beat the game" or feel superior. That needs to be addressed for sure.

The tedious amount of grind needed for focus farming really needs to be addressed as well. However, I feel that's something that ought to be left for a different topic, don't you think?

 

 

Honestly Focus Farming isn't that bad if you do ESO, you can get a ton with a group of kill frames pretty quickly among other things.

The problem, more than anything I think, is how match making works. I tend to run anything on the Star Chart solo at this point, as I don't really care to interfere or be interfered with in my style of Fun. Only time I do PUGS is for SO, ESO and Eidolon hunts, then I kind of want to see more OP frames in those and rake in them.

I say allowing players a bit more match making control with tag features would be nice, and is kind of a needed addition since there is a HUGE gap between Veteran players and New players. The play styles are quite different.

[MirageKnight]

21 minutes ago, racooperii said:

I say allowing players a bit more match making control with tag features would be nice, and is kind of a needed addition since there is a HUGE gap between Veteran players and New players. The play styles are quite different.

Totally agreed, although I think we're digressing from the topic a bit.

Edited December 7, 2018 by MirageKnight

[Mach25]

1 hour ago, racooperii said:

I'm not a fan of the solution. If for on other reason than it kind of screws people who run Solo like myself, and that almost always gets ignored in these demands for Nerfs.

The best solution, if you ask me, is to allow players to control PUG matchmaking tags, letting you select which Frames you would rather be(or not be) paired up with or maybe even limiting the MOD Capacity used, so if you would rather play with people more in line with your current strength then you can. Is it a bit more complicated then just doing a flat reduction of an ability? Yes. But I think this would be a far far better solution that has the potential to make Most parties happy.

New players can then avoid running into a Vet who looks at level 20-40 mobs and they die, and allows Vets to keep the high powered frames they need for higher level runs, and lets not forget it doesn't screw over the Solo Frames.

How is knocking enemy health down to 1 in a wide scale detrimental to your solo runs? My answer to the question is perfectly balanced for those as well - unless you're lazy and just don't like to work, then I can't help you there.

Matchmaking tags - your idea depends on a new avenue that hasn't been addressed in this thread - it sounds awful similar to "join a clan" or "create your own group", both of which have a tendency to elicit a negative reaction. Sure, that idea has been floated around before, but I haven't heard anything come of it, nor do I think it fits the devs' vision of how the game should be. If you can make a convincing argument for the implementation of these checks, they might listen - until then, we have to work with what we've got.

Complications of your view:

1. People switch frames before missions begin.

2. Players who are on or above your power strength do not like you nuking the map, so they'll come on to the forums or wherever and make another post calling for a nerf of Saryn's spores, so we're back to square one.

3. If you limit mod capacity, then Saryn's not as effective as she normally would be and want her to function sub-optimally. You're asking for a nerf to Saryn in a roundabout manner and negatively affecting others experience,

Sorry, I do not see a feasible answer in your propositions.

Edited December 7, 2018 by Mach25

[racooperii]

8 minutes ago, Mach25 said:

And how, exactly, is knocking enemy health down to 1 in a wide scale detrimental to your solo runs? My answer to the question is perfectly balanced for those as well - unless you're lazy and just don't like to work, then I can't help you there.

Matchmaking tags - your idea depends on a new avenue that hasn't been addressed in this thread - it sounds awful similar to "join a clan" or "create your own group", both of which have a tendency to elicit a negative reaction. Sure, that idea has been floated around before, but I haven't heard anything come of it, nor do I think it fits the devs' vision of how the game should be. If you can make a convincing argument for the implementation of these checks, they might listen - until then, we have to work with what we've got.

Complications of your view:

1. People switch frames before missions begin.

2. Players who are on or above your power strength do not like you nuking the map, so they'll come on to the forums or wherever and make another post calling for a nerf of Saryn's spores, so we're back to square one.

3. If you limit mod capacity, then Saryn's not as effective as she normally would be and want her to function sub-optimally. You're asking for a nerf to Saryn in a roundabout manner and negatively affecting others experience,

Sorry, I do not see a feasible answer in your propositions.

Look it's really simple why its a detriment. If I'm wasting my time casting an ability that doesnt Kill, CC or provide some level of Survivability then I should just ignore it and use my guns. Saryn's whole kit is about spreading a plague and keeping it strong to foster killing. It does, contrary to your belief, require work both in play style and in acquiring and building up the appropriate Mod Set up. Knocking enemy health down to 1 is completely pointless, cause if I need to use a big Room Wipe ability I'm not in a situation where that is going to help in any way. It is not going to improve the efficiency of a run either, as then I have to go back to using my Weapons(Which lets be honest) can still one shot and take down a huge amount of enemies. If I'm running MOT and I wanna push past an Hour or 2 Hours, then reducing those hard hitting enemies to 1 HP is pointless as they're still going to be shooting me while I cast and zip around, it does not reduce the damage I take by removing enemies who have LOS on me, it does not CC enemies so they stop attacking me and it does not provide me any amount of survival. That is why reducing to 1 HP is detrimental, it does Nothing of Benefit and provides only negatives.

And even if, I just wanna to use the ability to kill quickly, I hard core disagree its Lazy and Doesn't Require Work. Farming the right Mods, Syndicate for Augments, Endo for Ranking, Forma farming and Credits takes Work and Effort. So why shouldn't I be rewarded with a Massive Room Clearing Monster after all my front loaded Effort?

On to the second point. Does it matter it hasn't been explored in the course of this thread yet? I'd say no. This is after all a public forum for people to discuss Ideas, or am I wrong about that and I have to be in either the Nerf Camp or the "Lazy" Camp as I assume you'd call it. And I'll point out right now, those still are Valid Alternatives, if you or other people do not want to explore trying to make your own parties or teaming with your Clan then I could just as easily say you're "Just being lazy and don't want to put the work in" on making a group that enhances your specific style of fun. 

1. When you select a Level in Public you cant Switch unless you cancel joining the mission. 

2. Tagging you don't want Saryn removes this, as noted in my previous post about choosing what Frames would and would not be in your Public match making que, so already a non-argument.

3. Making her abilities only reduce to 1 HP is a far greater hit to her Efficiency, so not sure why you bring this up at all. Plus, and I know this might be shocking, but it would keep newer players who dont use all the Mod Points playing with people of similar Strength. 

Sorry, I just don't see any good rebuttles to my suggestion.

[MechaKnight]

I've posted long replies on this thread about the nature of radial damage abilities, so if you want my more complete perspective you should revisit the earlier pages. Since the thread is being bumped yet again and people are still making hasty decisions without seeing the game over the years, here's the summary.

Warframe has a glaring issue since birth regarding any radial emission, be it an enemy's napalm blast or a warframe's ability: they pass infinitely through walls for as far as the source has range. Similar to how a Grineer napalm or bombard hits you through terrain or a nullifier's aura nullifies you through a wall, we players can stun or kill enemies through walls.

However, the amount of range players stack on via mods has been excessive since corrupted mods and made ever more so by new range mods; we can stack 280% range stat to triple the range developers intended players to have. I have listed the many ways developers have attempted to resolve this issue in the past in previous posts, but the quickest way to explain: Vivergate radial spam and melee weapon line-of-sight, along with a growing list of ability-immune enemies including the recently-introduced Arbitration drones that are surely the test battery for the new abilities sentients will inherit.

Concisely said, the developers have misunderstood this core game problem as a Warframe balance problem, thus heaps of warframe nerfs and reworks have been applied over the years instead of addressing the core issue: radials shouldn't pass indiscriminately through walls.

Regarding player warframe abilities, the quick and dirty way is to rebalance the Overextended range mod, but the permanent solution is introduce line-of-sight to abilities similar to the kind tried during the Vivergate fiasco. For people who missed that, notice how melee weapons have pure line-of-sight where you can't hit enemies through walls. Ability line-of-sight was more generous than that--if the enemy was visible to the warframe within 5 seconds of the frame casting their radial ability, they'll get hit by the radial ability. In the case of Saryn's Spores it'll be a bit different: if the enemy was killed by that Saryn player's direct damage from any source other than the spore itself, the spore will spread to whatever enemies were visible to the initial enemy within a 5 second window. The same emitter-to-target logic is still obeyed, just with extra steps.

I've been a long-time player of Warframe who has played mostly every frame and I main Saryn since I first saw her and through all her bizarrely different ability iterations. People spammed radials with a bunch of Warframes in the past, most of which were nerfed but they didn't need to be. People will find another radial damage warframe to spam after Saryn because there are many such frames, but the current nerf logic means we'll just keep nerfing warframes as we have done for years past.

Implementing line-of-sight is a widespread fix on this pervasive issue that makes this game's combat so unfulfilling since you can just spam heaps of radials until everything dies before it ever saw you or was within walking distance of you. Line-of-sight will feel like a kind of blanket nerf, but it'll preserve or improve gameplay health since people tend to quit the game after everything dies to any given choice of frame radial damage ability. The developers have been cooperative for years in adjusting grind and rewards scaling, and I'm sure they'll be glad to make an even trade to boost mission rewards and/or decrease craft costs in exchange for implementing line-of-sight to fix this global issue that makes them develop warframe reworks to deliver enough frame radial nerfs to act as a poor proxy solution until they accidentally make yet another balance mistake they'll have to nerf for in the future.

In short, we need line-of-sight to fix this issue for all warframes over the game's lifespan. If you want to spam radials to farm faster, ask the developers to reduce the craft cost of whatever you're farming for so you don't need to obsess over spamming radial damage until you're bored of the game. It's really lame to defend broken game mechanics just because you want more loot to defeat some overpriced craft requirement. Just ask for the cost to be fixed along with implementing line-of-sight, since the only reason why craft costs became this bad in the first place is because the developers know how broken it is to spam radials all day.

If this post feels too long, I posted heaps of longer ones in the earlier pages. I apologize if this post was more terse, but I have been more specific earlier in the thread.

Edited December 8, 2018 by MechaKnight

[MirageKnight]

8 hours ago, MechaKnight said:

In short, we need line-of-sight to fix this issue for all warframes over the game's lifespan. If you want to spam radials to farm faster, ask the developers to reduce the craft cost of whatever you're farming for so you don't need to obsess over spamming radial damage until you're bored of the game. It's really lame to defend broken game mechanics just because you want more loot to defeat some overpriced craft requirement. Just ask for the cost to be fixed along with implementing line-of-sight, since the only reason why craft costs became this bad in the first place is because the developers know how broken it is to spam radials all day.

Well said there and you raise a valid point that's worth discussing.

8 hours ago, MechaKnight said:

If this post feels too long, I posted heaps of longer ones in the earlier pages. I apologize if this post was more terse, but I have been more specific earlier in the thread.

Nothing to really apologize for that I can see. You simply appear to feel strongly about this.

This is clearly an important issue for you - one that affects everyone really - and it must feel a bit frustrating to see a few arrogant, entitled posters trying to belittle / dismiss the issue with their hand-waving and "oh God, not this damn topic again" / "Well I don't have a problem with this" comments.

[RacerDelux]

The ultimate issue here is scaling. For frames/weapons to be viable in anything but lv 1-60 content, the damage and range HAS to be like this. Past level 200 or so, many enemies can one hit you if they see you.

I think the real thing you should be focusing on changing is how scaling works. Doing that will fix the "map nuke" issue.

[MirageKnight]

1 hour ago, RacerDelux said:

For frames/weapons to be viable in anything but lv 1-60 content, the damage and range HAS to be like this.

No it doesn't.

Do you people realize that you're eliminating the very challenge your precious ego craves? Do you all even know what challenge REALLY is?

Real challenge is having to rely on skill and perseverance to prevail against an enemy that has a good chance of killing you if you screw up.

It's no wonder you people keep yelling "where's mah endgame"...You have OP abilities and weapons at your disposal that are capable or trivializing even high level content.

Warframe needs to stop catering to gamers that moan and whine for harder enemies AND the tools to cheese them with. And frankly, Warframe is a much worse game for trying to make try-hards and glory -hogs happy. 

I remember an older Warframe where myself and others actually feared Level 45 Grineer and Corpus and had to really work to survive, let alone succeed.

I miss that game.

1 hour ago, RacerDelux said:

Past level 200 or so, many enemies can one hit you if they see you.

They're supposed to. Enemies past level 40-60 are intended to be a hurdle / progression stopper...That's why their damage and health scaling ramps up exponentially.

 

[RacerDelux]

2 minutes ago, MirageKnight said:

No it doesn't.

Do you people realize that you're eliminating the very challenge your precious ego craves? Do you all even know what challenge REALLY is?

Real challenge is having to rely on skill and perseverance to prevail against an enemy that has a good chance of killing you if you screw up.

You are assuming I use AOE frames. What I said is from the viewpoint of somebody who uses melee and almost nothing else.

[BeeWhyOhBee]

but most players love pressing 1 skill and nuking entire maps while afking or just bum-rushing missions. That's just how pub (most) games in warframe goes. So ignore all other frames because they're all trash. Equip Saryn or Mesa and join them. Also get maiming strike on an Atterax - real endgame mode.

or you can play solo, or go to recruitment chat and look for specific players

[Teridax68]

2 hours ago, RacerDelux said:

The ultimate issue here is scaling. For frames/weapons to be viable in anything but lv 1-60 content, the damage and range HAS to be like this. Past level 200 or so, many enemies can one hit you if they see you.

I think the real thing you should be focusing on changing is how scaling works. Doing that will fix the "map nuke" issue.

I can agree that scaling is a big problem behind much of the balance in Warframe, but why do we need poor design on frames just to deal with high-level content? Isn't the entire point of the game's current scaling to ramp up the difficulty until one can no longer compete?

[DiabolusUrsus]

8 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

I can agree that scaling is a big problem behind much of the balance in Warframe, but why do we need poor design on frames just to deal with high-level content? Isn't the entire point of the game's current scaling to ramp up the difficulty until one can no longer compete?

^ THIS.

People keep talking like they should be entitled to fight level 200+ enemies fairly when that was never the intent. It is the current reality due to DE failing to manage their power creep effectively, but endurance runs were always supposed to be something "extra." If you managed to get that far great, good for you; feel cool. But beyond what is readily available on the Solar Map and one full C rotation into any endless mode, all bets are off.

The game is not supposed to be balanced at level 400+, 300+, 200+, or even 150+. The enemies are ultimately supposed to become unbeatable and force players to leave or fail. The fact that they don't and you have groups of players casually cheesing modes for longer than your typical work day with enough patience should be an indicator that something is wrong.

[RacerDelux]

15 minutes ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

The game is not supposed to be balanced at level 400+, 300+, 200+, or even 150+. The enemies are ultimately supposed to become unbeatable and force players to leave or fail. The fact that they don't and you have groups of players casually cheesing modes for longer than your typical work day with enough patience should be an indicator that something is wrong.

I mean, if you know what you are doing, you can do up to 250ish just melee. After that they usually just one shot you.

[DiabolusUrsus]

21 minutes ago, RacerDelux said:

I mean, if you know what you are doing, you can do up to 250ish just melee. After that they usually just one shot you.

Your point being?

[RacerDelux]

1 minute ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

Your point being?

That everything in the game kills low level enemies fast.

[DiabolusUrsus]

4 minutes ago, RacerDelux said:

That everything in the game kills low level enemies fast.

... Same question. Your point being?

I'm seriously not trying to troll or anything; I just don't see the correlation between what you're saying and anything I previously said.

[Karonuva]

The problem with Saryn is that her ult doesn't have any real drawback. It's a huge aoe viral damage proc with a really quick animation. Like why is it so fast yet warframes like Garuda have comparatively sluggish animations for less power? Saryn is definitely too strong, she's even more of an AFK frame than she was before

Edited December 8, 2018 by DjAirsurfer

[RacerDelux]

4 hours ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

... Same question. Your point being?

I'm seriously not trying to troll or anything; I just don't see the correlation between what you're saying and anything I previously said.

It is that endurance runs are not an "extra".

I am unsure how long you have been playing, but endurance runs were literally the game for quite a while. A couple years. That is what us vets enjoyed doing.

[MirageKnight]

4 hours ago, RacerDelux said:

That is what us vets enjoyed doing.

So DE should continue catering to "vets" that have nothing better to do with their free time than spend a couple of hours on Endless...at the expense of everyone else that just wants to have fun...right?

No, they shouldn't.

They should instead be working harder at making the game more balanced and rewarding for everyone, less bug ridden, and easier for new players to learn. You know, fairly important things they've been arguably shoving to the side for a while now.

4 hours ago, RacerDelux said:

I am unsure how long you have been playing,

You could easily check their profile...which says 2013 btw.

4 hours ago, RacerDelux said:

but endurance runs were literally the game for quite a while.

See that word I bolded? To quote a favorite movie of mine..."I do not think it means what you think it means."

[DiabolusUrsus]

5 hours ago, RacerDelux said:

It is that endurance runs are not an "extra".

Yes they are, DE said from the beginning that they don't balance for them.

5 hours ago, RacerDelux said:

I am unsure how long you have been playing, but endurance runs were literally the game for quite a while. A couple years. That is what us vets enjoyed doing.

U7, with the Steam release.

Just because something is normalized doesn't mean it is balanced. It doesn't matter whether you "enjoy" them or not; my point was not about endurance runs being fun.

DE does not balance the game for level 150+. They balance the game for the Solar Map, and guarantee that you have a fair shot at completing at least one full reward rotation. Beyond that, you're on your own. Players are not in any way entitled to having gear suited for level 200 enemies, unless they can encounter those enemies within the first iteration of Rotation C.

Besides, isn't the whole point of endurance running finding challenge? There's no measure of accomplishment if you beat level 200 enemies with gear that's tuned to level 200. It's the same as beating level 30 enemies with an incomplete build.

[Yousho]

9 hours ago, DjAirsurfer said:

The problem with Saryn is that her ult doesn't have any real drawback. It's a huge aoe viral damage proc with a really quick animation. Like why is it so fast yet warframes like Garuda have comparatively sluggish animations for less power? Saryn is definitely too strong, she's even more of an AFK frame than she was before

It doesn't do much damage without spores. 

Furthermore, Garuda increase team DPS by, precisely, "one-mucking-metric-flooftonne" (technical term) more so than Saryn. Saryn's 4 is pretty damn strong, but "Hey, what if everyones damage just ignored armour and shields, and also left many nasty DoTs per hit?" is also pretty good. 

Edited December 9, 2018 by Yousho

[Yousho]

3 minutes ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

~Snippidy Snope-iddy, where's my Quote-iddy?~

They balance the game for the Solar Map, and guarantee that you have a fair shot at completing at least one full reward rotation. Beyond that, you're on your own.

Meanwhile, on the list of things that aren't true...

I mean, if that WERE true, we wouldn't really have this problem now, would we? 
Any frame, built properly, can stomp the star chart.

A few prominent ones: Loki, Saryn, Equinox, Inaros, Rhino, Nidus, Gara, Nezha, Garuda, Limbo, Nekros, Ivara and Trinity all trivialise the star chart completely. So, either DE are somehow all collectively sentient sponges in disguise, or this game is not balanced around the star chat. (Or, maybe, at all.)

[RacerDelux]

1 hour ago, MirageKnight said:

See that word I bolded? To quote a favorite movie of mine..."I do not think it means what you think it means."

—used to emphasize the truth and accuracy of a statement or description
"The party was attended by literally hundreds of people. " Webster Dictionary.
 

1 hour ago, MirageKnight said:

So DE should continue catering to "vets" that have nothing better to do with their free time than spend a couple of hours on Endless...at the expense of everyone else that just wants to have fun...right?

I think this is a bit... "the sky is falling:" is it not?
I think in the past 20 missions I came across 1, maybe 2 people who were nuking the map. And this was Hydron, where people GO to fast clear waves. (I have been using forma a lot)

If you think you do too much damage, take mods off, make your kit less strong. Done.

2 minutes ago, Yousho said:

A few prominent ones: Loki, Saryn, Equinox, Inaros, Rhino, Nidus, Gara, Nezha, Garuda, Limbo, Nekros, Ivara and Trinity all trivialise the star chart completely. So, either DE are somehow all collectively sentient sponges in disguise, or this game is not balanced around the star chat. (Or, maybe, at all.)

I built a melee mag for long runs, works quite well =).

[DiabolusUrsus]

27 minutes ago, Yousho said:

(Or, maybe, at all.)

You hit the nail on the head there. Just because the existing balance sucks and isn't really meeting its targets doesn't mean that DE is trying to balance for endless.

Yes, things are currently skewed enough that practically infinite-length endless runs are possible. No, that does not mean DE intends to balance for endless missions.

If they did, one might expect there to be some actually meaningful rewards set deep into Endless modes.

Yet what do we see in practice? Everything set to be accessible within "bite-sized" sessions rather than 60+ minute long runs. Hmmmm... It's almost as if DE spoke about this particular topic recently when they addressed the possibility of scaling rewards.

Endurance runs are certainly a legitimate way to play the game, and I doubt you'll find many people in favor of removing them or making them outright impossible.

But that doesn't make it appropriate to balance for them.

If players can't handle L200 enemies with the gear that they're given, then tough luck. That means they can't handle L200 enemies (and getting that far might actually be an accomplishment rather than an exercise in staving off boredom). There is no defensible reason why Saryn (or any other Frame, for that matter) "needs" to have damage output capable of downing enemies at that level.

DE only needs to fairly equip players up to the highest levels possible within a single reward rotation of any Endless setup. After that, it's (as I said previously) "just extra."