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As a new player I am little tired of "dumb" gameplay mechanics like Saryn - press 4 to kill map...


Marakai
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Just now, Xepthrichros said:

Yeah, I already have. GO read again.

Maybe just say everything you have to say in the first place instead of editing the majority of your post in afterwards and expecting me to go back and reread?

I also do not see your point? The arguments being raised in favour of limiting this playstyle make valid cases towards not just overall enjoyment, but the health of the game in the long run with regards to the co-operative experience, enemy/player balancing and difficulty.

Your counterargument is a hypocritical "stop trying to take my playstyle from me" whilst you simultaneously take other's playstyles from them. You aren't going to win any arguments like that, in fact none of us here will. 

You and every other person addicted to the shameless power fantasy will always feel threatened by these threads and will always post the same retorts, those who want engaging gameplay for everyone will continue to respond the same as they always have, but will be unable to make any headway because the topic immediately puts you on the defensive.

No one wins in this.

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56 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

You aren't going to win any arguments like that, in fact none of us here will. 

 

59 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

You and every other person addicted to the shameless power fantasy will always feel threatened by these threads and will always post the same retorts, those who want engaging gameplay for everyone will continue to respond the same as they always have, but will be unable to make any headway because the topic immediately puts you on the defensive.

What's interesting is his pet thread that was aimed at trying to flamebait / antagonize / take cheap shots at players that have been arguing for more balanced abilities got nuked.

I guess there's some justice after all.

1 hour ago, SqualZell said:

So kill my playstyle because yours is better, got it.

This is called a Strawman and it's what most educated people call a logical fallacy.

That said, your argument is automatically invalid.

I'd also like to add that your playstyle promotes selfish and boring gameplay, which is in opposition to the intended goal of Warframe.

Also, as DeMonkey so eloquently put it...

1 hour ago, DeMonkey said:

Fully invested in being a hypocrite aren't you.

 

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On 2018-12-14 at 10:20 AM, EinheriarJudith said:

...

for something like this to happen they would also need to overhaul the damage system. imho OHKO and bullet sponge =/= challenge as ive said many times. what does equate to challenge is aggressiveness of enemies, enemies that are able to prevent you from getting easy headshots, enemies that are agile, enemies that do not move on a rail, enemies that actually actively protect other units in their groups. if a game needs to use stat boosting to fake difficulty its already failed at creating said difficulty.

Love this stuff, that's what we need!

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5 hours ago, DeMonkey said:

You and every other person addicted to the shameless power fantasy will always feel threatened by these threads and will always post the same retorts, those who want engaging gameplay for everyone will continue to respond the same as they always have, but will be unable to make any headway because the topic immediately puts you on the defensive.

In fairness to shameless power fantasies it's kind of what horde slaying games are built around exploring. The nature of Warframe creates a really fine line between challenging content and tedious content and oftentimes the 'harder' things thrown into this game end up drifting into the latter category with enemies that take way too long to kill or deal way too much damage or just get to ignore or shut down some of the players' abilities.

Designing a more engaging set of challenges that doesn't necessarily ruin the gameplay flow a lot of people love is difficult to manage so I can understand why some people are skeptical about it and more interested in protecting what they have than exploring something that might just end up making missions sloggier for them.

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4 hours ago, MirageKnight said:

 

What's interesting is his pet thread that was aimed at trying to flamebait / antagonize / take cheap shots at players that have been arguing for more balanced abilities got nuked.

I guess there's some justice after all.

This is called a Strawman and it's what most educated people call a logical fallacy.

That said, your argument is automatically invalid.

I'd also like to add that your playstyle promotes selfish and boring gameplay, which is in opposition to the intended goal of Warframe.

Also, as DeMonkey so eloquently put it...

 

I'd like to point out your playstyle, which in your idealized view, means everyone has something to do in a mission, and will be challenging.... Sound fair and fun on paper. But in practice... it COULD (emphasis added, meaning POSSIBILITY, not a guarantee) also lead to...

More toxic flames and insults involving "oi noob, get out" "stop dying" "leave pls" "report leecher" when someone underperforms. And people can underperform unintentionally, especially if they are new, or a returning player unaware how much their powers have been nerfed (aka Reworked). But if the game is configured such that everyone MUST carry their own weight, then the other 3 players will likely have reduced tolerance for the new guys because he can't keep up and is literally making it difficult to win as now 3 people have to do 4 person's work. It already happens in Spy - people recommend running solo as they want to avoid bad Spy players and generally avoid any toxic conversations that can happen in a spy mission going awry. I occasionally do see people complain in ESO "Wow this saryn kill so slow, never use skills. bye" and they leave. Or in Arbitration when someone brought a warframe with healing powers but doesn't heal the Defense Operative. Also, a quick look at the recruiting chat in game tells me playerscategorize warframes to their best purpose, and many already consider Saryn, Equinox, as "DPS", Trinity and Harrow as "Heal/support", Hydroid, Nekros as "Farmer" etc. Not every warframe has to be number 1 at killing, or nunber 1 at spying, or number 1 at tanking..

I reiterate, I am not saying everyone that wants a challenge or skillful slower play is also someone toxic, but I am saying in general, when the game becomes more stressful and stakes become higher, and risk of losing increases, more anger and rage quits happen and more angry PM-ing will occur. Where else have I seen such angry messaging before? Hmm. Like every other PVP competitive game out there, Dota 2 comes to mind. Gone will be the days where a new player can venture into a level 30 map and die and have a Ember or Saryn nonchalantly rescue him before they all continue on towards toward the goal. Asking for "Taxi" to anywhere in Recruiting will be probably be ignored. I don't want Warframe to turn into that. 

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48 minutes ago, Elementalos said:

In fairness to shameless power fantasies it's kind of what horde slaying games are built around exploring.

I disagree personally, games like Strange Brigade, ZaT, Killing Floor etc manage to do horde combat without creating such a power fantasy.

However, whilst I can understand skepticism, it doesn't excuse some of the responses imo. And really, do the people who are skeptical think that's our end goal? To turn the game into a toxic wasteland or a broken mess? That's pretty sad if so and basically amounts to a strawman.

I can assure you that we genuinely want to improve the game, and if a resulting change is detrimental then you can be sure we'll be providing feedback saying "this wasn't right", case in point "Vivergate", in which despite a blatant balance issue being fixed, most of the community rose up and said "this wasn't the right way", including me.

So yes, whilst I can respect people being skeptical of such propositions, I have absolutely no respect for those claiming it'll ruin the game or crying about losing their playstyle.

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i hope they minimize hard enemies in the game. Make the sorties lvl 20-30-40 because its just too hard. 
i want to kill Spiderbot bosses with my MK1-Braton too

because that's what most players here want. they dont want challenging content, and want more rewards for the least effort possible

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I don't really mean to "eliminate" nuke playstyle, but to reduce its effectivnes and range. For example base range of nuke skills should be reduced heavly so when you get like 265-300% Reach you are not covering WHOLE MAP.

Another solution would be to eliminate the dumb mechanic which is that abilities go through walls and floors. That would also do it.

Another solution is to give harsher punishment in EOS for spamming one ability too often. Right now it's possible to have ability blocked but all you have to do is just shoot from time to time between spamming 4 and you are good. EOS should have harsher and faster punishment if someone is just using one ability every 10 seconds and get massive kills (like whole map).

The thing is it also encourage a  lazy way of thinking and playing of many people. For example many times I see people leaving EOS at Zone 3-4 and at some point I just asked them "why the hell you leave so early? Whats the point of even starting a EOS?". What did they reply? "Because we don't have saryn". Aaaah, ok. Well I have no problems soloing EOS with my Rhino Prime melee build and keeping efficiency at 90% but as fast as people see that they have no "nuke carry" to kill whole map for them, they prefer to leave and then try another EOS and hope for Saryn or Volt Prime to carry them. They don't even try, although many frames can carry EOS easly. But of course not as easy as brainless pressing one button.

It also doesn't make sense because when I had some good teammates (no Volt, no Saryn) and all 4 roam around map killing stuff - the efficiency is easy 98-100% all the time. But it requies running, gunning, sliding, using abilities, reloading, carrying, reviving etc. So many noobs prefer to sit next to Saryn or Volt and allow them to clear map so they don't have to do anything. So because of that I have responses like "you can't keep efficiency without Saryn". Which is BS, but if you never tried - how would you know?

It's just bad design to allow for something like this. Which is again my opinion but I hope DE could at least take a look at the issue.

Edited by Marakai
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7 hours ago, Marakai said:

Another solution would be to eliminate the dumb mechanic which is that abilities go through walls and floors. That would also do it.

Though not how I'd phrase it, I feel like LoS is probably one of the most efficient ways to go about fussing with nuke abilities. It's easy enough to program and limits nuke viability by situation or position (e.g. good on some tiles, not on others) rather than raw power or range. I would do it as nuke abilities requiring LoS only outside of a certain range, so the limits only come into play at map-wiping sizes (where things are, often, viewed as a problem).

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16 hours ago, Xepthrichros said:

I reiterate, I am not saying everyone that wants a challenge or skillful slower play is also someone toxic, but I am saying in general, when the game becomes more stressful and stakes become higher, and risk of losing increases, more anger and rage quits happen and more angry PM-ing will occur. Where else have I seen such angry messaging before? Hmm. Like every other PVP competitive game out there, Dota 2 comes to mind. Gone will be the days where a new player can venture into a level 30 map and die and have a Ember or Saryn nonchalantly rescue him before they all continue on towards toward the goal. Asking for "Taxi" to anywhere in Recruiting will be probably be ignored. I don't want Warframe to turn into that. 

But it's not even a question of raising the skill barrier in Warframe, it's about making Warframe a fun game for everyone, not just the one person who selected a map-clearing nuke frame. I can definitely agree that Warframe at its most basic is not meant to be a particularly difficult game, and I think it's perfectly fine for players to be able to pick an easy, no-stress build and breeze through most (though not necessarily all) content. However, that is absolutely not the problem here, because not only is the issue being brought up with Saryn that of her team interactivity, rather than her skill floor, in practice Saryn actually has one of the highest skill floors out of any warframe, as her abilities are overwrought and intensely dependent upon poorly-conveyed synergies that themselves require particular setups to maximize properly. In this respect, Saryn could stand to be made easier, and simpler to succeed with.

However, the problem is that, when played competently, Saryn makes gameplay in a session that much duller for everyone else, and so by design: Saryn's entire purpose is to infect enemies with a lethal plague that eventually kills everything it touches. This plague can reach enemies through walls, and over tremendous distances, a power bolstered by Saryn's own ability to near-instantly nuke enemies through walls for increased damage and across a wide area. The better one plays Saryn, the better one becomes at emptying rooms of enemies before one's allies get a chance to participate. Put another way: the better one plays Saryn, the worse gameplay becomes for every other player on her team, because their ability to interact with the environment gets cut significantly, far more than even with powerful AoE weapons. She therefore needs a change in design so that she can still spread her plague, but do so in a manner that still lets her allies participate, no matter how well she's doing. Ideally, this change should make her easier to play as well, which should likely mean taking a look at her current kit and seeing what could be streamlined or simplified, even (or especially) if it buffs her.

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18 hours ago, DeMonkey said:

I disagree personally, games like Strange Brigade, ZaT, Killing Floor etc manage to do horde combat without creating such a power fantasy.

Have to bust a few of your points. 1. Not the correct definition of a Strawman, as you claim that Saryn invalidates other people's play style. (You would ruin Saryn's Playstyle without any choice. When you have the option and choice to preserve your own play style playing solo, or invite only. Also, ironic that you call Warframe Toxic. Every new player I have seen comments how warm and friendly the game is compared to other MMO games. 

Examples come up all the time how people are happy to help each other, as opposed to other games with real toxic fan bases such as league of legends. 

Killing Floor doesn't have progression like Warframe does. You don't level up Guns, Characters, Pets, Operators, that are persistent upgrades. Warframe is an MMO (Though some people pretend it isn't. Teradax for example-) Warframe acts like any MMO where a high level goes back into a lower level area and curb stomps everything. 

How many times do these people who complain about Saryn actually put effort in to fix their own problem? This isn't a problem with Saryn. (As you can ask the Saryn to simply not do that. Leave, get friends who won't Saryn, play solo, or play missions where Saryn isn't prevalent.) 

Not a single time has a person asked me to stop killing as Saryn, I have had more requests for me to Not do limbo things, and I have played a lot of Warframe. 

People like you, would skip being courteous. Force your definition of "balance" when you have all the tools necessary to fix the issue you have. Saryn isn't anywhere near the most broken frame. (I'd give that honor to Nidus, or Octavia. Octavia which has the potential to vastly outperform Saryn and kill enemies who's levels are in the 1000s.

Low level players complain about Saryn in low level missions. Just like you can complain about anything in low level missions. Ember, Equinox, and Banshee who are also broken in low level missions.... As is any frame in low level missions. 

Not a single person I have talked to says Saryn is broken in high level content like Arbitrations. Why is this? Why do people constantly complain about low level missions when low missions are designed to be completed by low level players.

 

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2 hours ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

1. Not the correct definition of a Strawman, as you claim that Saryn invalidates other people's play style. (You would ruin Saryn's Playstyle without any choice. When you have the option and choice to preserve your own play style playing solo, or invite only.

That has absolutely nothing to do with anything.

The poster in question believes we want to homogenise everything, to turn Warframe into a hardcore experience filled with toxicity. That is a strawman, as it is not an argument we have presented.

2 hours ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

Also, ironic that you call Warframe Toxic.

No, I didn't.

2 hours ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

Killing Floor doesn't have progression like Warframe does. You don't level up Guns, Characters, Pets, Operators, that are persistent upgrades.

Yes, you do.

2 hours ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

when you have all the tools necessary to fix the issue you have.

I'd like to refer you to a previous post in this thread where I lay out exactly how deplorable the argument of "play premade or solo" is. I have no respect for your post when you suggest that.

2 hours ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

Why do people constantly complain about low level missions when low missions are designed to be completed by low level players.

Because 90% of the game takes place at low levels :facepalm:. Alerts? Low level. Resource farming? Low level. Quests? Low level. Entire star chart? Low level.

Edited by DeMonkey
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I think the game needs more modes like Arbitrations, where random minmaxers can't dominate while playing public matches. And these modes should be the most rewarding.

I'm also all for rebalancing numbers properly (especially stats increase while modding), though this won't be easy and I doubt DE gonna go this way. Applying LoS to AoE abilities (maybe after certain range) sounds like a great idea too.

Edited by Ksaero
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2 hours ago, Yousho said:

Every frame can make low level content completely trivial. 

Infact, most guns can aswell. 

Hell, I don't think this game even has non-trivial content currently. People are doing 5x3 a night these days. 

The issue many seem to have isn't that things like this make content trivial, but that they do so in a way that precludes other players. I.e., it's not power, it's area of effect. Compare talk surrounding Saryn to that of Excalibur.

Maybe that's just my narrow observations, though.

Edited by Tyreaus
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2 hours ago, Tyreaus said:

The issue many seem to have isn't that things like this make content trivial, but that they do so in a way that precludes other players. I.e., it's not power, it's area of effect. Compare talk surrounding Saryn to that of Excalibur.

Maybe that's just my narrow observations, though.

Precisely. Of course 4x Rhino Primes with Ignis Wraiths will trivialize EOS too- all are unkillable, deal riddiculous damage and clear all zones fast.

The difference is however that each of this Rhino Prime players will have his/her piece of cake. Each will have opportunity and time to kill enemies, kill group of enemies, jump around and do some parkour shooting. They will have chance and time to more less equally participate in EOS activity.

However with Saryn they won't have almost any chance to do anything as she will just nuke map every 6-10 seconds (when next spawn happens) and if there is also trinity on party- Saryn will just chain-spam AOE nuke and that's all. Rest can sit still in the middle and watch affinity numbers pop around. 

That is the problem. It's not about making content trivial, but at least making it trivial as a party, not as a Saryn escort.

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