As a new player I am little tired of "dumb" gameplay mechanics like Saryn - press 4 to kill map...

[Retrijeuj]

That's why I don't go public unless I want to grind, there's always an afk nuker who ruins the fun. But as some people say, go in the recruitement channel and make your own nuke-free team, though I don't like the idea of new players having to adapt to vets.

Also, I haven't played Saryn much since her rework, but if she can afk nuke, it probably means the enemy is too low level. Are you perhaps playing on Helene ?

[S.Dust]

As a relatively new player I hope you understand that if you stick with the game at one point or another you will be wanting those frames or people with you in some cases. 

[Marakai]

1 minute ago, S.Dust said:

As a relatively new player I hope you understand that if you stick with the game at one point or another you will be wanting those frames or people with you in some cases. 

Um, no- many people solo hardest content with non-meta frames. It's a matter of challanging yourself.

By no mean game should be design that for late content some frames feel mandatory and others useless. That is a bad core concept in any game. Sure, you can't avoid meta in long-shot but that does not mean DE should stop trying to balance it as much as possible.

[S.Dust]

2 minutes ago, Marakai said:

Um, no- many people solo hardest content with non-meta frames. It's a matter of challanging yourself.

By no mean game should be design that for late content some frames feel mandatory and others useless. That is a bad core concept in any game. Sure, you can't avoid meta in long-shot but that does not mean DE should stop trying to balance it as much as possible.

Never called them mandatory but if you ever wanna farm efficiently those frames are sometimes necessary also. Sure you can go far with non meta frames but you will also just never get as far as you would get with an actually good frame. Either way everything serves a purpose and if we nerf things they die I mean people who have been around and saw embers nerf can tell you she is almost as common as wukong at this point.

Edited November 25, 2018 by S.Dust

[Voltage]

11 minutes ago, Marakai said:

And how many other frames stop being Map-AOE nuke before level 500?

.... all of them?

[Xolgys]

vor 14 Minuten schrieb Marakai:

[...]

maybe its many people who dont really take their time to properly test stuff out and experience higher lvl content aside from the low lv 20-40 enemies and misjudge. ever thought about that ?

again, that lvl issue too is an endgame issue because there is not much content where enemies outscale lv 100-120 on a normal basis, but balancing around early game is not the way to solve that.

vor 13 Minuten schrieb Marakai:

Ow, I am sorry, you have to stand still and press 3 buttons. My bad.

others only need 1 button. get over ur saryn hate...

Edited November 25, 2018 by Xydeth

[Marakai]

Just now, Voltage said:

.... all of them?

Sorry, I should have been more specific- long before lvl 500. From what I have seen on YT- Saryn has no problem nuking 300 lvls  with same ez pressing buttons. Wish should at least had to aim with those. Just any, any skill-involved would be nice.

[German]

This is a prime example of the poor balancing in Warframe. Probably won't change considering Saryn has been reworked twice now and can still do that S#&$.

[(PSN)KresTias]

Just wonder if OP talking about Elite Sanctuary or no.

[clxrffdman]

1 minute ago, Marakai said:

Sorry, I should have been more specific- long before lvl 500. From what I have seen on YT- Saryn has no problem nuking 300 lvls  with same ez pressing buttons. Wish should at least had to aim with those. Just any, any skill-involved would be nice.

This doesnt happen without the team being based around saryn, in which case many frames can "nuke" lvl 300s with team synergy.

[Xolgys]

Gerade eben schrieb German:

This is a prime example of the poor balancing in Warframe. Probably won't change considering Saryn has been reworked twice now and can still do that S#&$.

and others cant ? please...u comment as if mag couldnt wipe rooms with the blink of an eye....or equinox, volt, mesa, nova, frost, nidus, rhino or ash. ember too can still do that.

[Marakai]

4 minutes ago, German said:

This is a prime example of the poor balancing in Warframe. Probably won't change considering Saryn has been reworked twice now and can still do that S#&$.

I don't know what is the problem to make her 4 work more like Nova 2- it has specific range and you have to actually at least aim at Area when you want to proc it.

Because Nova 2 is a example of good AOE nuke design- it's super strong, can delete enemies but: 1. it has specific range , 2. it has to be setup (shoot it, it's at least some sort of skill/action required from player), 3. it has to be aimed, 4. you are vurneable during it, givng it some risk-reward stuff.

Edited November 25, 2018 by Marakai

[DSkycroft]

1 minute ago, Xydeth said:

and others cant ? please...u comment as if mag couldnt wipe rooms with the blink of an eye....or equinox, volt, mesa, nova, frost, nidus, rhino or ash. ember too can still do that.

The difference is that those frames wipe rooms;Saryn wipes maps.

[RX-3DR]

It seems people are getting to hung up over the mention of Saryn but I'm with you on this. It all boils down to a matter of perspective on games. Some people see that the ends justify the means where all that matters is winning and getting rewarded to have fun. I think it's quite silly that the idea of progressing in the game revolves around removing large portions of gameplay interaction.

The sad thing is that things like this will come back to bite us in the back with regards to balancing. We're already seeing this with Sanctuary Onslaught where the efficiency rate is just left as is. As with Zenurik's Energy Regeneration, DE is likely unwilling to draw a definite line on things like this to even address it, much like how it took them years to address the Tonkor.

[Xolgys]

Gerade eben schrieb DSkycroft:

The difference is that those frames wipe rooms;Saryn wipes maps.

~40-45m miasma and spore spread range is insta map wipe...my bad i totally forgot our maps are that tiny. even with miasmas cascade effect on killing spored enemies u wont come close to a map wipe, not just because its mathematically impossible also because u need enemies to actually get affected.

[Yagamilight123]

hace 24 minutos, Marakai dijo:

Maybe, just maybe- if there are so many threads about Saryn - did you think for once that there is maybe an issue?

How many threads you see about Excalibur being OP, Rihno, Banshee, Harrow, Ash, Volt, Frost etc.

So if so many people see an issue- then maybe there is one. It's worth to think about it.

You can see thousans of thread about stupid things ... its not make it right O.o , just show how people cant accept that are wrong . And you are here since 25 april .... you are not a "new player" you are an eternal noob .

[Ryim_Drykeon]

It's not the Frame, it's the Player.

This is what differences inexperienced, or unskilled players from those that have the experience AND skill. I play Saryn a lot (she's my most used Frame). However, I rarely use her 4. When I do, it's for the stun effect, not the nuke effect. Why? Because I can clear the area faster with weapons (see Toxic Lash effects), or even my Operator's Void Dash.

Long distance nuking? Have you looked at Mesa perhaps? 😎 Quick room clearing? Nezha, anyone? Revenant? Titania?

You're new. Go learn the Frames and skills and then come back and tell us something we don't know that's correct.

[(PSN)Double991]

If you were playing Elite Onslaught, that Saryn was doing you a favor.

Most new players can't kill fast enough in there (not saying you can't kill fast). It's better than your team killing too slow and not making it to round 8.

Edited November 25, 2018 by (PS4)Double991

[RX-3DR]

22 minutes ago, Marakai said:

I don't know what is the problem to make her 4 work more like Nova 2- it has specific range and you have to actually at least aim at Area when you want to proc it.

Because Nova 2 is a example of good AOE nuke design- it's super strong, can delete enemies but: 1. it has specific range , 2. it has to be setup (shoot it, it's at least some sort of skill/action required from player), 3. it has to be aimed, 4. you are vurneable during it, givng it some risk-reward stuff.

Well, this issue is not one directly created by design but rather, one that has grown into the abomination that it currently is.

Originally, abilities like Miasma, even before the rework, had relatively strict restrictions due to mod availability and energy. Since ability usage and their effect was significantly more restricted, the old formula of panic button abilities had nowhere near the destructive effect they have now. However, as development progressed, the introduction of new mods, particularly since Corrupted mods, allowed for a significantly larger variation on Ability stats.

This has only gotten worse with them making Energy easier to obtain, leaving them in the spot that they are now. You can see they're trying their best to push away from the old design formula to abilities with the newer frames but even with the reworks, you can tell they're not willing to abandon many of the roots with the older frames.

Looking at it from the perspective of DE, would going back to completely remove radial AOE abilities be good or not, it's a really complicated matter simply because these frames have existed in that state since their creation. Usually, DE doesn't delve into the 200% Power Strength, 200% Power Range part of the game and they're likely just leaving the situation as an extreme.

Edited November 25, 2018 by Flandyrll

[(PSN)Hikuro-93]

Did you know that whenever I take my Guandao to most missions, specially exterminate, basically no one (Saryn included) but others of my efficiency level, will touch any enemy at all? The problem isn't Saryn. The problem is PUGs. Ultimately this is a PvE game, of course the ilusion of power is above the feel of challenge. And you still have some challenge as you go up the ladder of enemy levels, as logic would already suggest. How about getting better, doing other stuff?

Plus as said before you can just help the team by doing other stuff. When a Saryn is on the squad and I have a Rhino I'll buff her so she can kill better. I'll pop nullifier bubbles or kill any leecher unit on sight. You don't have to always be the all-shining overpowered hero, you can be the sidekick. Wanna be the shining hero? Train and invest in order to become one, don't try to lower others to your level.

[(XBOX)The Neko Otaku]

There's really nothing wrong with sayrn,  you're just running into people who know how to use the mod system. And people are going to use frames with AOE abilities to nuke the map cause it's efficient way to run missions, there's a lith/meso you bet there will be people taking equinox and ember in there to run as fast as possible to build up ducats for the next baro visit.

Edited November 25, 2018 by (XB1)The Neko Otaku

[Bao]

I won't consider myself a veteran player (only been playing since what, '15 or w/e?) but I've put my fair share into the game so if you want my two cents, feel free to read on.

I play Saryn, Equinox, Nova, Mesa, Ember, Banshee, etc. Basically pretty much any frame that trivializes all the "low-end" content.

Saryn? I almost never use her Spores. It's too time consuming and too tedious to maintain. If I do use them, about 90% of the time I'm using it in conjunction with my 3 for the damage reduction + Toxic buff on my weapons and maybe, just maybe I'll use my 4 to stunlock enemies or clear a room if I see I'm going to be overrun soon. I used to take her into Onslaught, but honestly if someone else wants to play the room-nuke viper, I'm fine with soaking up the EXP and providing energy through Zenurik. I actually prefer her 2+3 over her other abilities but that's because I enjoy more utility aspects of frames rather than straight up DPS. Unfortunately the same could be said for people who do enjoy the power spike from her 1+4 and don't really give much thought to her 2+3 other than being 'get-out-of-jail' cards or boosting the damage on her 1.

Equinox has so many more options going for her than just her infamous Maim. I've seen so many threads complain about her kill potential, and I don't know if people don't realize that is literally her only DPS ability. As far as I'm concerned every frame in existence has at least one DPS ability and Equinox is no different. Should there be adjustments and limitations? Sure, I can see a LOS options or a small nerf on her range could be applied, but in return like how they changed Ember's WoF range and buffed her close-range damage, it needs to be the same for Equinox. She should have a higher slash damage ratio for a smaller range. What a lot of people don't realize is how much more powerful her damn Night form is. She can sleep an entire room and perform finishers, her 3 has the potential to slow enemies more than a Molecular Prime (minus the bonus damage, but hey, use your 2 and bonus damage doesn't even matter), and what about the fact you can deliver potent over shields (hey there Trinity, Volt!) just by shooting enemies while having your Mend active? Oh, and that applies to all teammates that are in her range. Equinox doesn't have the capacity to outdo any singular frame in their roles, but for how complex she can be and how many options she has, people are willing to overlook her more useful and niche aspects and decry her single DPS ability making her an impossible frame to play with.

(as a side note, yes, I love Equinox to death, but I rarely use maim and if I do, it mostly ends up being a CC factor or to clear off a room that might be trouble)

Nova is just utter BS. The ability itself only lasts about 15 seconds with max duration mods, but the slow debuff + damage multiplier remains for a whopping 72 seconds. If that isn't broken as hell, I don't know what is. And if you can't kill an enemy in 72 seconds with a damage multiplier with your OP, riven-tricked out Opticor, then it's you who has the issue. That's not coupled with the fact a charged up 2 will basically one-shot a group of enemies with M. Prime buff, and if they live well guess what, it does a radiation proc so they'll probably be fighting each other when they get back up. She has a 90-95% damage reduction potential with her 1 and she can get out of anything with her wormhole. She is also utter BS because, somehow, some people don't know what freaking Nova to bring in certain missions, nor do they seem to care to not use their M.Prime when they realize they brought the wrong one. That's an issue of the player, not the frame itself. I've accidentally brought speed Nova to the wrong missions and vice versa, but I usually avoid using it and just stick with my other abilities.

 

Mesa is probably one of the better balanced ones, given her LoS, energy drain, and shrinking target range, her DPS is kind of justified. And without her 3 active or Mesa's Waltz, she's as good as a sitting duck in a hunt. Do people bemoan about Mesa's insta-nuking a room? Sometimes, but it's far less common than your typical frames being thrown under the buss.

 

TL;DR: There's a lot more you can say about the other frames than just the same damn ones over and over again. Balancing is going to be hard, and it doesn't matter if Saryn gets "nerfed" or has her kit adjusted - people are going to find a new frame to complain about because their kits are overriding your preferred play style. We've already seen the trend with Ember, Banshee, Saryn, and honestly the next one on the chopping block is gonna be Equinox's Maim. Then we're probably gonna see a spike in usage from the likes of Octavia (hello infinite scaling 2x damage reflection back to enemies) or another nerf in damage from Finishers (looking at Inaros + Covert Lethality with no trouble in a 15 hour survival) or something else that's ridiculous. Basically, you're never going to make both the new players and the veterans happy simply by catering to new players, which DE has been doing a lot recently. Arbitrations is probably the closest thing that gives veterans something to do, and it still gets hate from a lot of folks.

 

If you really wanted to provide useful feedback and suggest alternatives, GD isn't the place to post about it. If you're ranting and raving, find other threads in this forum subsection and bump it up. Don't flood and oversaturate with another 'complaining' thread. You might think it highlights a pertinent issue, but the fact of the matter is most players are going to just view this as a 'here we go again, another complaint thread' rather than take anything you say seriously. IF it was game-breaking enough, this isn't the place to post about it.

[mikakor]

i mean, if there is a Saryn killing everything, you might as welll simply enjoy the free ride with free loot, EXP, and rewards... i don't udnerstand people who complain about Saryn. just leave then if you don't like it...

[(PSN)Hikuro-93]

6 minutes ago, mikakor said:

i mean, if there is a Saryn killing everything, you might as welll simply enjoy the free ride with free loot, EXP, and rewards... i don't udnerstand people who complain about Saryn. just leave then if you don't like it...

As someone who likes to use variety but still wants to get stuff done, that is true. For a long time I avoided ESO because I really hate taking a Saryn to it. But then I realized that Saryn is indeed meta, meaning I can take any frame, passively help/buff/have fun, and still get good rewards from it. Same for other missions, since I'm tired of playing Mesa at the moment so I've been switching frames every mission in order to dust the off or learning how to use frames I didn't like before. We just got to adapt, honestly, be it by helping in other ways, or picking the specific members of our teams.

Edited November 25, 2018 by (PS4)Pauloluisx

[German]

vor 2 Stunden schrieb Marakai:

I don't know what is the problem to make her 4 work more like Nova 2- it has specific range and you have to actually at least aim at Area when you want to proc it.

Because Nova 2 is a example of good AOE nuke design- it's super strong, can delete enemies but: 1. it has specific range , 2. it has to be setup (shoot it, it's at least some sort of skill/action required from player), 3. it has to be aimed, 4. you are vurneable during it, givng it some risk-reward stuff.

Yep, agreed.