As a new player I am little tired of "dumb" gameplay mechanics like Saryn - press 4 to kill map...

[(PSN)UltraKardas]

On 2018-11-30 at 3:27 AM, MechaKnight said:

Notice how the new range mods are based around 30% range increments, not 45%, which is very telling that they don't like giving players much range.

If they didn't like range, they wouldn't have added a cheaper version of Stretch. Yes it has lower range by 15%, but it is also lower mod cost, and comes with a set bonus. 
If it was as strong as stretch, it would have replaced it all together. Augur Message does the same thing with Continuity. Lower effect, then the original version, cheaper mod cost wise, and with a set bonus. Are you going to say they don't like duration cause Augur Message isn't as strong? 

If they truly didn't like range, they wouldn't let you use Stretch, and Auger Reach together at the same time. 
 

On 2018-11-30 at 3:27 AM, MechaKnight said:

Blessing lose infinite range because having that much range is detrimental to the game. Nyx's synergy with Overextended was too strong since she didn't care for base damage when she could effectively triple her range and stack infinite damage across a partner Nyx, so DE got rid of infinite-damage nuking without penalty from Overextended. You have contradicted yourself--DE clearly doesn't want range in these examples.

So... DE hates range. Hates range so much that they don't nerf Nyx's absorb range.... and instead just stop her from collecting infinite damage on absorb. You contradicted yourself here. If the range was the broken part, why didn't they shrink the range of absorb in a fashion similar to how they adjusted Ember's ultimate? No no! The infinite millions of damage wasn't the busted part. It was the range! 

Nyx's range on absorb was never broken. It was the infinite damage it could deal, with very little energy. Two Nyx's together, with 75% power efficiency, could alternate detonating and absorbing around a defense mission. The other nyx becoming a damage bank for the other. Feeding each other over and over, to the point nothing could survive. Very quickly get to the point where anything would die once they reach millions of damage. That's why most of the changes to her absorb... was regarding energy cost, and stopping the infinite loop of her ultimate with another nyx. Trinity's blessing was more broken from the old invincibility she gave everyone... to the possibly 99% damage reduction then her range ever gave her. 
 

On 2018-11-30 at 3:27 AM, MechaKnight said:

What downside? The enemies can barely get close before they die by being stunlocked and killed through walls. If you played the game for even a year you'd notice how rarely you take shield damage to the point where you lose any health at all. The downside is irrelevant when the only risk is nullified by an easily-afforded ability.

Downsides? Saryn is squishy, has soft CC. With several other casters having built in protection of some sort, while Saryn has limited damage reduction unless she blocks with her melee weapon. She can deal out damage, she certainly can't take it. Her abilities being AoE is really the only selling point of her. Without that, her flaws become glaringly obvious. I've used her to solo level 300+ enemies. But if she gets hit, it's over for her. A maximum of around 2900 effective health, isn't much compared to other frames. 
 

On 2018-11-30 at 3:27 AM, MechaKnight said:

It's because random matchmaking is just that--random. It's for ease of access to squads to get the gameplay done and have fun without organizing a team first. Recruiting doesn't work because it's too slow, too laborious, you can't remove people who lie about what they're bringing when they join your squad, you have to instruct them exactly how you want them to play and what they bring ,and in the end you'll be dissatisfied when they purposely disobeyed every squad requirement you set. 

This is disingenuous at best. I have finished many raids, many raid bosses with randoms, and filled in for farming groups. If a leader doesn't like the look of you? He'll disband, re-invite everyone he likes and won't give you a single thought. Public matchmaking is just that Public. It's random who you are paired up with. Yet people manage to recruit for the roles they want for PUG eidolons all the time. 

"Looking for another low level player to partner with" You check the responses, and kick anyone you think wouldn't jive with you. -Just like every other group that invites somebody they don't like the look of.

On 2018-11-30 at 3:27 AM, MechaKnight said:

You used all those words to say "I disagree, both of our opinions are just that--opinions--and opinions are subjective." We can agree to disagree. I know for a fact though that when a significant portion of players complain, change happens. Saryn has already been nerfed a few times, may be nerfed again, then some more frames will be nerfed like what usually happens in this ongoing cruel cycle of frame nerfs. Lets stop the cycle and find a permanent solution to abiltiy range abuse, because the current developer path is to nerf frames or create anti-ability mechanics.

Saryn got nerfed, then she got buffed. Then she got nerfed, with a buff attached to the end of her kit. This happens to all frames throughout the game. This happened to Excalibur when he got reworked. Nerfing Exalted blade, then tweaking it later so you could mod it. This happened to Valkyr when Hysteria got reworked. Mag got rebalanced twice I believe. Valkyr and Excalibur's nerfs had nothing to do with range, tweaking their ultimates that are independent from range. Banshee, and her quake still bypasses obstacles. Resonating quake functioning as another nuke that ignores terrain. Despite Banshee's ultimate being cheesed multiple times in the past, they only nerf they ever did to her, was change resonating quake more engaging to use, instead of just being glued to the ground for large periods of time. Meanwhile, you can still use her normal version of this ultimate like that. 

Hate to break it to you. But I haven't seen a single MMO that don't tweak classes constantly through out its life cycle. Like how they tweaked Chroma.... or any of the other half a dozen frames. Limbo, Hydroid... Etc who weren't broken around range. I have more examples, like this. I find it interesting that Miasma was bugged for the longest time that it wasn't doing damage properly. They could have left Miasma as it was. Yet they still gave it the capability to do double damage, then it used to on enemies under spores. 
 

On 2018-11-30 at 3:27 AM, MechaKnight said:

While I'm at it, lets address anti-ability enemies and entities in order.

• Energy Leech Eximus. Steals player energy.
• Doors with disruptors: inflicts magnetic procs, which remove player energy.
• The Nullifier. He creates an aura which disables abilities in its vicinity, and has capped damage intake so it would not be broken by single strong shots, but faster shots.
• The Bursa is a heavily durable enemy created to tank frontal damage, and is generally durable all-around so it effectively resists ability damage simply by resisting any damage. Some variants lob nullifying grenades that nullify abilities. Their damage output is strong.
• The Comba and Scrambus have helmets which disable abilities in a variety of ways. They are given powerful weapons in order to destroy frames--hopefully the frames that are best at using radial powers are also the weakest ones, so this enemy hopes.
• The Juggernaut takes extremely little damage except for its weak points, which are nearly impossible to target with an ability. Thus, you use your weapons on it instead.
• The Nox is designed to take less damage from any point except its head. Most abilities target the torso instead of the head, thus this enemy resists damage from most abilities.
• Plains of Eidolon night water: inflicts mag proc, removes energy.
• Eidolons. Radial blast inflicts magnetic proc, removes energy.

You missed several btw. Ancient Disruptors/healers who have been in the game since 5 years ago who can reduce power damage by 90% or prevent ability procs from allies around them. 

You missed the Grineer Drone in Nightmare LoR that protected all Grineer inside, that constantly spawned during the mission. Arbitration Drones do essentially the same thing. 

Also ignoring the old OG Stalker who had "dispel" which would cancel out any other warframe ability. Now I believe he is just fully immune. These have been in the game for a long time. 

And juggernaut is not immune to warframe damage. I can parasitic link him as a Nidus, even without a weak spot exposed. Exalted Blade can, or was able to bypass his armor. 

Bursa's and Scrambus are so bad at nullifying warframe powers, that they basically don't hamper most powers at all. Nullifiers, drones, and disruptors, and eximus are the main methods of negating warframe powers. Most of them only do it temporarily, and can bypassed in different ways. 
 

On 2018-11-30 at 3:27 AM, MechaKnight said:

The game has shaped up to resist abilities due to our relentless radial spam. When the developers failed to succeed in pushing line-of-sight, this was the alternative to engage players more.

Not quite. The game has shaped up to be more engaging by requiring players to deal with enemies who are inhibiting their powers. Popping, or killing enemies before players go back to full effectiveness. 

On 2018-11-30 at 3:27 AM, MechaKnight said:

I do understand what balance is as far as I've played many games, run guilds, organized 20/40 man raids, grinded my ass off in grossly terribly game economies, and played games that were a variety of qualities from exceptional to disgustingly shallow. I know that letting gameplay degrade to the point where it is too trivial harms the replay value of the game. Challenging content could only work as long as it can bring challenge, but not when it is trivialized by the same overpowered metagames that trivialized every other attempt at challenge the developers ever pushed towards us. Years ago, the solution was spam stun and damage radials. Today, the solution is to spam stun and damage radials. The years have passed and challenges were released, but the solution is always the same. Arbitrations is the first peek to see how far DE will push invulnerability conditions to prevent radial abilities from being effective.

Arbitrations is a bad point for you to make. The drones function like advanced nullifiers, however when you destroy one with a weapon, it explodes dealing significant damage to all enemies under its protection. These drones are only their to make it more engaging. 

De is actively adding new mission types where AoE spam is no real problem. We will see how Railjack and ship to ship battles function. 
 

On 2018-11-30 at 3:27 AM, MechaKnight said:

I haven't even talked about current and future sentient enemies, which are surely designed to resist all kinds of strategies based around abilities and damage type status effects.

Much to your surprise, I'm sure. People will bring and use whatever frames make their mission the easiest. If Saryn can't handle the situation, frames like Chroma will take the spotlight. A few good lanka shots later, and more trivialized content. 

You might want to re-check your definition of Balance. Cause AoE damage based warframes can't tank like Inaros or Nidus. While CC frames, can't damage like the dps frames can. Inaros is balanced with his health as his damage abilities are low. Yet Saryn can easily outdamage him, but doesn't offer the same levels of CC or tackiness. This is called balanced. 

The only unbalanced warframes are probably Octavia, or Nidus. (They scale insanely well.)

[Klokwerkaos]

48 minutes ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

The only unbalanced warframes are probably Octavia, or Nidus. (They scale insanely well.)

I would argue neither are unbalanced, or everything is unbalanced.

Every warframe except the few on bottom tier that are in drastic need of attention has somewhere in the game it shines particularly well in.

Nidus and octavia happen to be warframes that shine particularly well in many areas, but that doesn't make them unbalanced, in particular there are simply bits of content they are simply not welcome in, eidolons being the most notable, but they have their drawbacks and limitations too.  Ever play nidus with an overzealous harrow on your squad?  this is just one example.  They are really really great frames, that are intentionally gated, and someone has to be good at something, and even then, neither of these frames is "the best" at anything they do, they are just good at several things if you build and play them properly.

Edited November 30, 2018 by Klokwerkaos

[Teridax68]

I have to agree with @MechaKnight here: at the end of the day, "if you don't like this frame, make your own squad" is not a valid excuse, because one of the core components to playing Warframe is being able to easily join other players when running any mission, and pushing players to isolate themselves, or otherwise make their multiplayer experience far more convoluted than it needs to be, is good for neither the game nor its community. Moreover, it fails to address the core issue at hand, which is that some frames are simply not fun to play with. If a hypothetical frame had the power to kill any of their allies at the press of a button, or even permanently destroy their allies' frames and weapons from their inventory, the answer to that shouldn't be "just make your own squad if you don't like playing with this frame", it should be "this frame is unpleasant to play alongside by design and should be changed". In this case, I'd also be willing to bet that there would still be some community of people who'd defend this frame for their "fantasy", and push back because they want to be able to play the game "their way", even if "their way" of playing the game hinges upon making it less fun for others. That alone is not a sufficient defense when the fun those players have comes at the expense of many more.

While the above is an extreme example, the same arguments can be applied to frames that are currently notorious for the issues they cause, namely Saryn, Limbo, Equinox/Ember at times, etc. The problem with these frames isn't that players aren't going out of their way to avoid playing with them, but that these frames give players incentive to do so in the first place. In all of these cases, these frames typically generate frustration because they remove interaction from missions: Saryn, Equinox and Ember (also Volt) are all capable of single-handedly killing all enemies in a large radius and through walls, given the right enemy level, and so quicker than anyone else can go around and fight them. Limbo is a special case in that his kit is built to remove physical interaction between different elements of the game, which just so happens to include allies. In all of these cases, these frames are not great to play with, because while it's okay for some players to kill more enemies than others, it's generally not considered okay for a single player to be able to kill all the enemies, and so without the consent of their allies.

My personal take on Saryn in particular I'd say is quite simple: her current kit is mostly fine, but her Spores just need to be unable to deal lethal damage. If Saryn could bring all enemies down to 1 health from across the map, she may in fact become amazingly fun to play with, because she'd become one of the best kill enablers in the game. In most cases, there wouldn't be much of a difference in clear speeds, because those enemies would be so weakened that they'd die just as quickly, but the difference in gameplay would be massive for Saryn and her allies, because everyone would have a fair chance of killing those weakened enemies, and Saryn herself could have an added layer of gameplay from being able to hold her plague for longer in certain locations. I don't doubt that there'd be players who'd push back against this, but overall I'd still say it could be a win-win for everyone involved.

[W3zeer]

vor 3 Stunden schrieb (XB1)Knight Raime:

"but maybe you should think of the other 3 players in your squad."  Unless you're some how griefing the only thought that needs to be put forth when pubbing is to revive people when they go down or if there is some way you can interact with the person in a unique way.

Well, I'm not mad at you if you play that way, but I don't. Usually I like support roles most, warframe doesn't really offer that, but I can still decide not to bring my Ignis to any low level mission to give my fellow tenno something to do. I like the weapon for syndicate missions, but I don't use it f.e. in lith fissure. Sure, I'd save a few seconds each run, but I don't like seeing low MR rank players trying to fight but ending up with 0-1% damage dealt. But as I said, noone can force you to be a teamplayer, egoism is fine. Just don't expect other players to cater to you then and not ask for nerfs on things they don't like.

 

vor 3 Stunden schrieb (XB1)Knight Raime:

Passive aggressive comment that doesn't belong.  Not to mention fun is subjective.  Warframe is a game of numbers and efficiency

The tone of this threat has been more than passive aggresive, so excuse me if I'm not worried about microaggressions. And it does belong, since you show with your very next sentence that you argue from the same standpoint. Different players have different opinions of what this game should be about. Each are equally valuable and unlike you, I haven't stated mine as a fact. I don't care too much about being most effective when I can't have fun doing it. Still managed to do almost everything in the game. But like I said, that's just for me, but I find it a little bit funny to see ppl trying to take these power fantasies to an extreme when together in a group. Usually one person feels powerful, the rest collects loot. Giving the advice to play solo or in premades is the equivalent of forcing your playstyle onto them, nothing inherently bad, but it in turn again gives them the right to try to do the same to you.

I'm not overly bothered myself tbh. Warframe is in a state where it can't just go to being a challenging, balanced game, for that the entire damage, weapon and AI system would have to be reconstructed and I don't see that happen. What I'm adressing is the absolute lack of logic here. I always read this "don't force me..." stuff. Ofc we're infringing on each others games, it's a multiplayer game. The question is are we willing to restrain ourselfs and if we're not, how do we claim that others can't do the same?

 

vor 3 Stunden schrieb (XB1)Knight Raime:

Finally the game has far and beyond moved passed press 4 to win.  Saryn in this case is being far over simplified.  And that's really just because OP doesn't understand her.  And it doesn't help that you have other players coming in and giving this person a false sense of right just because they're salty players that don't like the game's base truths.  So they rally behind the ignorant individual.  I'm not going to sit here and lie to your face saying I enjoy being carried.  I don't.  But sometimes i'd rather get stuff done.  If I want to play a specific way I have that option.  And people acting like solo/squad making is unreasonable when it's really not.  They just want their cake and be able to eat it too.  They're the unreasonable ones.

OP writes for a low level environment, where press 4 to win still works perfectly fine. I agree though because other frames absolutly outshine her in that regard 😄 . Also complaining about "passive agression" and then use ad hominems don't mix to well, I'm not offended though 😉 . Just food for thought: Do you think the grind would be quicker, slower or the same, if missions would take longer on an average? I'd think it would stay the same, as I would think the devs envision a certain time players are supposed to grind and adjust the numbers accordingly. I could be wrong though.

[GdsN]

Am 25.11.2018 um 18:13 schrieb Marakai:

I know vets who play level 200+ enemies may see her different  but as a fairy new player I am really tired of just baby sitting next to Saryns who just press 2 keys and I just see Affinity numbers pop out around map. 99% of Saryns just stand in middle of map and spam one-two abillity. I know they are other AOE nukers- but many of them start to scale bad at around 80+ lvl with their nukes from what I have seen, but Saryn damage is toxic and corrosive so she scales probably best with content making even fun missions/events with high level enemies trivial and boring. Many times me and other 3 players on Onslaught or Survival/Defense just stand and hope we can kill something or use our "non-AOE-map nuke-press-one-button" abilities before Saryn kills whole map using so much skill as pressing 2 buttons.

I know Saryn is not alone, Equinox can do something simillar, Octavia can afk, Ember was a problem with it but I heard she was nerfed long time ago.

Anyway I don't understand why DE design those frames with such brainless gameplay. It's not only not fun to play with such frames as other less-AOE frames (or non-meta frames general), it makes mission trivial, boring and not challanging. Not to mention it's a very selfish design since it does nothing for team apart from taking away fun.

Veterans might don't care, I understand- different perspective. But from new player point of few (+ my friends who also started WG with me) it's just not fun to play with.

This is just my opinion as new player.

And I don't want to be matchmade with MR 0-10 players who leave hydron after 5 waves, when I want to Level efficiently... As ppl already stated: Just do your own, closed groups. Enemies are scaling with the number of players in your group so no need to worry that you will need a MR 20+ that carries you through the missions without a saryn. 

Btw. Saryn has just seen a "nerf" (not actually for veterans) a couple of weeks ago when Miasmas damage was halved. If you don't want to feel this powerful in a game go play fortnite. 

[GdsN]

Am 25.11.2018 um 18:13 schrieb Marakai:

I know vets who play level 200+ enemies may see her different  but as a fairy new player I am really tired of just baby sitting next to Saryns who just press 2 keys and I just see Affinity numbers pop out around map. 99% of Saryns just stand in middle of map and spam one-two abillity. I know they are other AOE nukers- but many of them start to scale bad at around 80+ lvl with their nukes from what I have seen, but Saryn damage is toxic and corrosive so she scales probably best with content making even fun missions/events with high level enemies trivial and boring. Many times me and other 3 players on Onslaught or Survival/Defense just stand and hope we can kill something or use our "non-AOE-map nuke-press-one-button" abilities before Saryn kills whole map using so much skill as pressing 2 buttons.

I know Saryn is not alone, Equinox can do something simillar, Octavia can afk, Ember was a problem with it but I heard she was nerfed long time ago.

Anyway I don't understand why DE design those frames with such brainless gameplay. It's not only not fun to play with such frames as other less-AOE frames (or non-meta frames general), it makes mission trivial, boring and not challanging. Not to mention it's a very selfish design since it does nothing for team apart from taking away fun.

Veterans might don't care, I understand- different perspective. But from new player point of few (+ my friends who also started WG with me) it's just not fun to play with.

This is just my opinion as new player.

And I don't want to be matchmade with MR 0-10 players who leave hydron after 5 waves, when I want to Level efficiently... As ppl already stated: Just do your own, closed groups. Enemies are scaling with the number of players in your group so no need to worry that you will need a MR 20+ that carries you through the missions without a saryn. 

Btw. Saryn has just seen a "nerf" (not actually for veterans) a couple of weeks ago when Miasmas damage was halved. If you don't want to feel this powerful in a game go play fortnite. 

[Yousho]

Other people should not change the way that they want to play the game to accommodate you. Solo and preconstructed group play exist. 

The thing with "nuke" frames is that they might destroy lower level content (as will most guns when built well...), but they won't instantly explode a map full of level ~200's, which is what they're mostly used for, and they don't exactly shine in things like Arbitration / Index.

Saryn, specifically, is a weird thing to focus on, managing spores is it's own little mini-game. It really isn't just a case of "Press button to kill map". 

I love my Saryn, but I only really use her for ESO; spore damage never really gets to build up in normal missions. 

Just be thankful you've never had to experience the old Nova, which not only was in a constant state of exploding the whole map, but stole all of your affinity for the privilege. 

[W3zeer]

vor 1 Minute schrieb Yousho:

Other people should not change the way that they want to play the game to accommodate you. Solo and preconstructed group play exist.  

So they should change the way they play to accomodate you then? You're going to spin in a circle forever when arguing with this.

[Yousho]

21 minutes ago, W3zeer said:

So they should change the way they play to accomodate you then? You're going to spin in a circle forever when arguing with this.

False equivalence. I don't mind them not nuking and trying to play more slowly, regardless of what I'm doing. So, no, they don't have to change how they play.
Also, I'm not typically a big fan of the nuke play-style myself, I only really break out Saryn for ESO. 

[GrayFrequency]

Play style is on the preference of the player. I think Saryn is perfectly fine.

I have even seen frames that I don't exactly prefer being used to their advantages, and the way it is done is efficient. I think it is okay. 

I think a player should play as any frame they want. Personally Saryn Prime is my favorite frame(also my 1st prime), and has been for a long time. I find her play style to be very useful, and it is something that I simply prefer.

I have been trying out other frames too, other than Saryn, so I can gain mastery(almost at 15) and see what else I like and so far my 2nd favorite has to be Nezha.

It is just all in how you build the frame, what mission you're doing, and how you play.

 

[W3zeer]

vor einer Stunde schrieb Yousho:

Solo and preconstructed group play exist.

There is no false equivalency, this is what you said, do what I say or get out of my group. Also, do you seriously expect a brand new player who's in the process of clearing the earth nodes to put together premade groups?  And furthermore, you force them to not shoot at anything because everything is dead before they see it, this is not letting them play at their pace because they wont do anything when you're leaving nothing. Again you're forcing a specific playstyle on them. Like I said earlier, there's nothing wrong with that per se, but don't try then to argue they can't do the same to you by getting a higher authority (the Devs) involved.

[(PSN)UltraKardas]

13 minutes ago, W3zeer said:

There is no false equivalency, this is what you said, do what I say or get out of my group. Also, do you seriously expect a brand new player who's in the process of clearing the earth nodes to put together premade groups?  And furthermore, you force them to not shoot at anything because everything is dead before they see it, this is not letting them play at their pace because they wont do anything when you're leaving nothing. Again you're forcing a specific playstyle on them. Like I said earlier, there's nothing wrong with that per se, but don't try then to argue they can't do the same to you by getting a higher authority (the Devs) involved.

Is a false equivalency based on the assumption that "other players forcing them" to not play just for being in the same mission. Low level noobs choose not to shoot, choose not to participate. This is why they can leave, or find a new mission if they aren't enjoying their experience. They cannot dictate a group they don't own. If they do decide to host a group, they are fully capable of tailoring it to what they want. 

[Chaemyerelis]

Lots of frames and guns in this game clear maps insanely fast...

[W3zeer]

vor 15 Minuten schrieb (PS4)UltraKardas:

Is a false equivalency based on the assumption that "other players forcing them" to not play just for being in the same mission. Low level noobs choose not to shoot, choose not to participate. This is why they can leave, or find a new mission if they aren't enjoying their experience. They cannot dictate a group they don't own. If they do decide to host a group, they are fully capable of tailoring it to what they want. 

Wow, sorry but this shows some serious disconnect from reality. A noob can't choose to shoot or not to shoot when that decision is made for him by another player. I've seen matches where MR1 excals were desperatly trying to get ahead an Ember with an Ignis just to get a shot in only to fail miserably. Saying this one player that claims all enemies wasn't the dictator of that particular group is a statement that needs some serious backup, right now I'm not convinced. And then wanting to force noobs out of public matches is indeed you wanting them to cater to your needs, if you want to acknowledge that or not. It is YOU who expects someone else to not do something, i.e. asking for changes/nerfs, so in return you have to accept the request they have that you let them play without going out of their way to have their definition of fun. You say no to the latter, so they have every right to deny you the former. Also players have no tools at all to control a group even if they are hosting it so your second point goes nowhere aswell. Also you totally ignored how realistic it even was to expect noobs to always make their premades.

[Mach25]

On 2018-11-25 at 12:13 PM, Marakai said:

I know vets who play level 200+ enemies may see her different  but as a fairy new player I am really tired of just baby sitting next to Saryns who just press 2 keys and I just see Affinity numbers pop out around map. 99% of Saryns just stand in middle of map and spam one-two abillity. I know they are other AOE nukers- but many of them start to scale bad at around 80+ lvl with their nukes from what I have seen, but Saryn damage is toxic and corrosive so she scales probably best with content making even fun missions/events with high level enemies trivial and boring. Many times me and other 3 players on Onslaught or Survival/Defense just stand and hope we can kill something or use our "non-AOE-map nuke-press-one-button" abilities before Saryn kills whole map using so much skill as pressing 2 buttons.

I know Saryn is not alone, Equinox can do something simillar, Octavia can afk, Ember was a problem with it but I heard she was nerfed long time ago.

Anyway I don't understand why DE design those frames with such brainless gameplay. It's not only not fun to play with such frames as other less-AOE frames (or non-meta frames general), it makes mission trivial, boring and not challanging. Not to mention it's a very selfish design since it does nothing for team apart from taking away fun.

Veterans might don't care, I understand- different perspective. But from new player point of few (+ my friends who also started WG with me) it's just not fun to play with.

This is just my opinion as new player.

Then you're going to love Volt - literally, all he does is just sit in one place and press 4. He is the very definition of press 4 to win and can out dps Saryn with the press of a single button - just bring 3-4 corrosive projections and Volt will do the rest.

[MirageKnight]

On 2018-11-25 at 12:13 PM, Marakai said:

I know vets who play level 200+ enemies may see her different  but as a fairy new player I am really tired of just baby sitting next to Saryns who just press 2 keys and I just see Affinity numbers pop out around map. 99% of Saryns just stand in middle of map and spam one-two abillity. I know they are other AOE nukers- but many of them start to scale bad at around 80+ lvl with their nukes from what I have seen, but Saryn damage is toxic and corrosive so she scales probably best with content making even fun missions/events with high level enemies trivial and boring. Many times me and other 3 players on Onslaught or Survival/Defense just stand and hope we can kill something or use our "non-AOE-map nuke-press-one-button" abilities before Saryn kills whole map using so much skill as pressing 2 buttons.

I know Saryn is not alone, Equinox can do something simillar, Octavia can afk, Ember was a problem with it but I heard she was nerfed long time ago.

Anyway I don't understand why DE design those frames with such brainless gameplay. It's not only not fun to play with such frames as other less-AOE frames (or non-meta frames general), it makes mission trivial, boring and not challanging. Not to mention it's a very selfish design since it does nothing for team apart from taking away fun.

Veterans might don't care, I understand- different perspective. But from new player point of few (+ my friends who also started WG with me) it's just not fun to play with.

This is just my opinion as new player.

As a vet player, I definitely care. I also agree with you.

You know why DE allows Saryn, Equinox, Mesa, Volt, and a couple of other outliers to utterly dominate small defense maps and make gameplay boring for everyone else unlucky enough to be teamed with elitist try-hards and their OP, kill-hog builds?

Money. Those 'Frames and their broken powers make DE money, regardless of whether you all care to admit that or not.

Yes it's arguably wrong to allow this to continue due to profit motive, but that's how things appear to be. Now to those of you that think that DE allowing this sort of thing is wrong, make your respectful opinion heard on the forums, Reddit, and Twitch...and vote with your wallet. Stop buying plat and Prime Access with real money.

Don't like obnoxious, OP builds in your matches? Leave as early as possible when you see one and find another session. It's not an ideal solution, but at least it spares you several minutes of boredom watching someone else clear the level for you.

For me, this has gotten to be so bad that when I see a Saryn, Equinox, Octavia, Volt, or Banshee on an Endless Defense map, I leave and tell everyone why I'm leaving.

"A Saryn? No thanks, I want to able to kill stuff. I'm out" *clicks Abort Mission*

"A Volt? No thanks, I want to able to kill stuff and not run around like a Russian Dwarf Hamster on crack. See you." *clicks Abort Mission*

You get the idea.

On 2018-11-25 at 12:44 PM, Betsill said:

You need to learn how saryn works/actually play her  before  making  ignorant  non-arguments.  She doesn't just  press 1 button or 2.  You have to maintain her spores once you place them by using your 3 and 4. You also have to balance your dmg. kill to fast you lose your  spores,  kill  to slow  and  you get overrun.

Oh please. THIS half-arsed defense / justification of Saryn's brokenness again...? *rolls eyes*

Unpopular opinion time: 

This so-called "required effort" doesn't change or even justify the fact that Saryn can easily rack up 400+ kills by Wave 10 on Hydron and leave everyone else fighting over scraps. 

No - you're not doing anyone except yourself a favor by killing everything in (and out of) sight as quickly as possible. You're thinking only of yourself and people think this way are part of the problem. Why? Because your way of playing and willingly exploiting broken and OP abilities has a negative effect on everyone that's unfortunate enough to be stuck with you.

[(PSN)Hikuro-93]

10 minutes ago, MirageKnight said:

Yes it's arguably wrong to allow this to continue due to profit motive, but that's how things appear to be. Now to those of you that think that DE allowing this sort of thing is wrong, make your respectful opinion heard on the forums, Reddit, and Twitch...and vote with your wallet. Stop buying plat and Prime Access with real money.

Don't like obnoxious, OP builds in your matches? Leave as early as possible when you see one and find another session. It's not an ideal solution, but at least it spares you several minutes of boredom watching someone else clear the level for you.

I respect your opinion, but it's precisely that, an opinion. I like to clear rooms just as much as I like them to be cleared by other people for me. And yes, you put it very well actually, players are indeed voting with their wallets - it's making DE money. Let's not forget this is a PvE game in which you are a genocide machine, so being god-like is expected and wanted by the community. It is the point of the game.

Edited November 30, 2018 by (PS4)Pauloluisx

[Critiamat]

My opinion? My opinion... hmm.

Remove Saryn and Mesa from public matchmaking pending a rework that will result in non game breaking, non fun sucking, and non braindead gameplay.

I don't understand how anyone can have "fun" playing these two, honestly.

Nah, fix these two and ppl will find other way to don't use brain cells.

^{Don't bother hating me, tl;dl reading past 6 pages, won't read next replies too.}

Edited December 1, 2018 by Critiamat
typo

[MechaKnight]

34 minutes ago, Critiamat said:

My opinion? My opinion... hmm.

Remove Saryn and Mesa from public matchmaking pending a rework that will result in non game breaking, non fun sucking, and non braindead gameplay.

I don't understand how anyone can have "fun" playing these two, honestly.

Nah, fix these two and ppl will find other way to don't use brain cells.

^{Don't bother hating me, tl;dl reading past 6 pages, won't read next replies too.}

Well, you did admit you didn't read the previous pages so I'll give you credit for being honest.

My first post on this thread said something similar to "do not blame any particular warframe for this gameplay issue, it is systematic across the game." Many warframes in the past spammed radials constantly, and DE finds ways to prevent mindless radial spam from becoming effective, from making enemies durable, ability-resistant, or able to nullify abilities. Meanwhile the developers put true line-of-sight on melee weapons and have put line-of-sight on abilities before. Nerfing any one warframe without an adequate rework just makes players move on to the next warframe who abuses radials.

The blunt reality is, if the developers don't nerf all specific radial-damage frame abilities or implement line-of-sight on abilities globally, they'll push out more ability-resistant enemies to ensure spamming radial damage is not viable. They do this because spamming radial damage is mindless and takes away from the game experience by making the game boring to the player doing the spam, and making the game barely enjoyable for anyone following in the footsteps of the player as there's barely a single living enemy to battle.

[(PSN)UltraKardas]

15 hours ago, W3zeer said:

Wow, sorry but this shows some serious disconnect from reality. A noob can't choose to shoot or not to shoot when that decision is made for him by another player. 

False. This is defeatist attitude on your part. You make every other player not Saryn out to be some kicked mewling dog on the ground. You are completely wrong for a few reasons. #1 No player forces another player to do something in any public game. A noob can let Saryn kill everything for them. The noob chooses to not fire the trigger, chooses not to play solo, and chooses to complain about getting a first world problem of overly competent teammates. 9 times out of 10, a Saryn takes a position relatively in the middle of the map, then has a delay between when enemies spawn, and when they start dying. Usually about the time before a Saryn can apply spores, shoot an enemy, then Miasma. Miasma also usually lasts around 7 seconds. A Miasma alone has been nerfed damage wise, and won't impede noobs from participating. The noob could move to an enemy spawning gate, and run around the edges of the map. While most Saryns will be in the middle, so they won't take damage. (Remember, Saryn is no Inaros.) This means that Saryn will let enemies come to them. Nox, ancient disruptors, and nullifiers are easy targets for these noobs to seek out. As they will be largely immune to Saryn's AoE. 
 

15 hours ago, W3zeer said:

I've seen matches where MR1 excals were desperatly trying to get ahead an Ember with an Ignis just to get a shot in only to fail miserably. 

Oh the horror. We should also get rid of the ignis, ember as concept, and make it so that all enemies have 99.99% damage reduction except against low Mr players. 

Let's actually be realistic here. #1 a Mastery Rank 1 player has no idea what is going on. A Frost Prime with a kraken could shoot and kill everything before most newbs could get a chance. Low Level content and the entire solar system as a whole is the basic tutorial for the game. You'll get farther in the game by trying to compete with the strongest players, then giving up. Excalibur could easily get ahead of Ember, just using Slash Dash as a movement ability. Would kill everything low level as well. 

15 hours ago, W3zeer said:

Saying this one player that claims all enemies wasn't the dictator of that particular group is a statement that needs some serious backup, right now I'm not convinced. And then wanting to force noobs out of public matches is indeed you wanting them to cater to your needs, if you want to acknowledge that or not. It is YOU who expects someone else to not do something, i.e. asking for changes/nerfs, so in return you have to accept the request they have that you let them play without going out of their way to have their definition of fun. You say no to the latter, so they have every right to deny you the former. Also players have no tools at all to control a group even if they are hosting it so your second point goes nowhere aswell. Also you totally ignored how realistic it even was to expect noobs to always make their premades.

Interesting how your argument twists all logic. You know how many times I have had a player politely ask me in group chat to not use my powers as much? Either cut back my power spam, or simply slow down? Hmmm. Not once. I've had people see me join a mission as a frame they don't like (usually limbo) and instantly leave..... Even when it's an arbitration so I can defend the objective... So let me get this straight. Your response to "forcing noobs out of public matches" is to force veterans out of public matches. No, I'm not forcing noobs out of public matches, I'm forcing them to fix their own problem. If they constantly find themselves in low level exterminates, and higher level players, (Doesn't even need to be veterans. A Mastery rank 4-5 player with basic serration mods could trivialize the first few planets for a Mastery rank 1-3 player) blasting through before they have a chance to fire a bullet, they can turn the mission solo, then return to public play at their leisure. You would force every other player, cater to the needs of a few newbs who have every ability to pick how they experience the game. 

Instead, you would force the players without a problem, to fix other player's problem. A Mastery rank 8 player can do the same thing; just going in to get polymer bundles so he can build the next frame he wants, and kill everything before the low level excals even figure out what's going on. This is a slippery slope that would start out with excluding veterans, then after nothing changes would exclude more and more groups from each other. You are really punishing anyone who has spent any amount of time in warframe, and secluding them out of the player base for what reason? If you only seclude low level missions, the newbs will complain about the later planets. It never fixes the problem, and nerfs don't serve anything either. People will either switch frames, or simply leave the game after getting bored of everything being a bullet sponge. 

Your idea hurts the noobs the most, as they can't be carried through spy missions, sorties, or events anymore. Tough luck for any newb who wants to take part of archwing missions, without a proper archwing for the task. This is a cancerous idea through and through, and terrible for game balance, or anyone who didn't get a leg up on the immense grind of warframe before every last drop of fun was removed from the game, and every enemy turned into a bullet sponge, so every newb can get a shot off. 

I'm not even asking a newb to always make a premade group. I'm asking them to do it, when they take issue of having their shiny metal ass carried by somebody else. 
Take it from me, I would love nothing more then every newb to carry their weight and duly help the team. Alas, that doesn't happen often. 

 

Edited December 1, 2018 by (PS4)UltraKardas

[Betsill]

2 hours ago, MirageKnight said:

Oh please. THIS half-arsed defense / justification of Saryn's brokenness again...? *rolls eyes*

I'm not saying shes overpowered, underpowered, or fine. It's called context... *rolls eyes* my point was that he doesn't have a clue what he's talking about.

Edited December 1, 2018 by Betsill

[(PSN)UltraKardas]

2 hours ago, MirageKnight said:

You know why DE allows Saryn, Equinox, Mesa, Volt, and a couple of other outliers to utterly dominate small defense maps and make gameplay boring for everyone else unlucky enough to be teamed with elitist try-hards and their OP, kill-hog builds?

Same reason DE allows Loki, Ash, Ivara, to dominate Spy and rescue missions. Same reason Nova, Booben, dominate interception missions or make the index brain dead easy to complete. Same reason that Frost and Gara make excavations trivial. 

Each frame has their niche, where they excel when other frames can't. They elitist try hard argument isn't a good argument. This is a half baked assumption that you, and people like you have. Warframe is an extremely casual game. The try hards are more likely to be doing something that actually benefits them, then waste their time in a mission with you. The only place you are realistically likely to run into these people is in leveling missions, where they want to level up a weapon as fast as possible, so they can get on to the next forma as fast as possible. (Multiple forma-ing weapons gets boring fast.) 

Tryhards go solo into missions as equinox, to farm focus, with the stealth multiplier. Or are busy farming eidolons to get those best arcanes. Doing events, or farming prime parts/weapons. As a vet, there is only a single resource I farm for ever. And it's polymer bundles as almost every recipes seems to use it. My massive Clan dojo, ate up most of mine, and it's the only resource I ever occasionally farm. ( I might need mutagen samples if they every make something as stupidly high cost as the Hema though.) You won't find me in anything

Complaining that one frame is too good for specific scenario #1 and no other scenario, is a very quick way to kill every last ounce of fun in the game. My Nova with a 90m range can turn every interception into Sloooooow M-mooooootion... AAAAHHHHH... 

Also makes it as painless, as possible while those towers go untouched and the mission completes faster. 

[Grave.Knight]

I take solace knowing that it only works in low rank missions. In mid to higher rank missions it doesn't work nearly as effectively. Once they start passing 30 ranks the whole press 4 to win starts slowing down.

[(XBOX)Knight Raime]

15 hours ago, W3zeer said:

Well, I'm not mad at you if you play that way, but I don't. Usually I like support roles most, warframe doesn't really offer that, but I can still decide not to bring my Ignis to any low level mission to give my fellow tenno something to do. I like the weapon for syndicate missions, but I don't use it f.e. in lith fissure. Sure, I'd save a few seconds each run, but I don't like seeing low MR rank players trying to fight but ending up with 0-1% damage dealt. But as I said, noone can force you to be a teamplayer, egoism is fine. Just don't expect other players to cater to you then and not ask for nerfs on things they don't like.

There are plenty of ways to play support.  It's my second preferred kind of style in a group.  Perhaps define what support means to you.  I'm not against players asking for change.  I'm against not informed/misinformed players asking for changes purely because they dislike something.  I'm not saying vet players should go into the beginnings of the star chart and blow everything up.  That's them going out of their way.  I'm merely saying that if a new player ends up running content vet players are doing (relic runs, certain resource farming spots, etc) they really shouldn't be complaining if someone is trying to efficiently farm.

15 hours ago, W3zeer said:

 

The tone of this threat has been more than passive aggresive, so excuse me if I'm not worried about microaggressions. And it does belong, since you show with your very next sentence that you argue from the same standpoint. Different players have different opinions of what this game should be about. Each are equally valuable and unlike you, I haven't stated mine as a fact. I don't care too much about being most effective when I can't have fun doing it. Still managed to do almost everything in the game. But like I said, that's just for me, but I find it a little bit funny to see ppl trying to take these power fantasies to an extreme when together in a group. Usually one person feels powerful, the rest collects loot. Giving the advice to play solo or in premades is the equivalent of forcing your playstyle onto them, nothing inherently bad, but it in turn again gives them the right to try to do the same to you.

It's an empirical statement.  The game is a grind game.  You can argue what makes warframe warframe for you.  That's not what i'm arguing.  This game is built from the ground up as a time sink.  This is why we have build times.  this is why we continually have new resources added.  This is why you have the ability to shortcut time with money.  It is a game about grinding and being efficient at it.  There is no arguing against that.  As I said.  You can tell me what the game is for you.  You can tell me you like x aspect about the game and that's why you play.  But you can't argue against the foundation of the game.  Before there was fashion frame, before their was a thriving market, before there was a cohesive story.  It was a game built on the premise of grinding.  And no that's false equivalency.  DE's solution to this conundrum has been and always will be solo/group making.  They already established that no one has any right to say what is the proper way to play in pubs.  I'm not telling you that it's my way or the high way.  Because that implies I have power on the situation.  I'm telling you what the situation is.  and what you can do about it.

15 hours ago, W3zeer said:

I'm not overly bothered myself tbh. Warframe is in a state where it can't just go to being a challenging, balanced game, for that the entire damage, weapon and AI system would have to be reconstructed and I don't see that happen. What I'm adressing is the absolute lack of logic here. I always read this "don't force me..." stuff. Ofc we're infringing on each others games, it's a multiplayer game. The question is are we willing to restrain ourselfs and if we're not, how do we claim that others can't do the same?

There is no lack of logic here.  I treat others the same way I wish to be treated when I play in pubs.  Asking someone to slow down their gameplay for me so I can participate the way I wish to is asinine to me.  If we didn't have the capability of crafting our own experience or if playing this game solo was not viable then I could understand.  But that's not the reality of our situation.  If I don't like something I can leave and find a different game/play my own game.

15 hours ago, W3zeer said:

 

OP writes for a low level environment, where press 4 to win still works perfectly fine. I agree though because other frames absolutly outshine her in that regard 😄 . Also complaining about "passive agression" and then use ad hominems don't mix to well, I'm not offended though 😉 . Just food for thought: Do you think the grind would be quicker, slower or the same, if missions would take longer on an average? I'd think it would stay the same, as I would think the devs envision a certain time players are supposed to grind and adjust the numbers accordingly. I could be wrong though.

Game's not really balanced around that point.  And that's neither here nor there.  The point was the "meta" frames of today involve a lot of player interactivity.  So someone dumbing down saryn's gameplay purely to fluff their argument is a problem.  Slower.  

[(XBOX)Knight Raime]

17 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

I have to agree with @MechaKnight here: at the end of the day, "if you don't like this frame, make your own squad" is not a valid excuse, because one of the core components to playing Warframe is being able to easily join other players when running any mission, and pushing players to isolate themselves, or otherwise make their multiplayer experience far more convoluted than it needs to be, is good for neither the game nor its community. Moreover, it fails to address the core issue at hand, which is that some frames are simply not fun to play with. If a hypothetical frame had the power to kill any of their allies at the press of a button, or even permanently destroy their allies' frames and weapons from their inventory, the answer to that shouldn't be "just make your own squad if you don't like playing with this frame", it should be "this frame is unpleasant to play alongside by design and should be changed". In this case, I'd also be willing to bet that there would still be some community of people who'd defend this frame for their "fantasy", and push back because they want to be able to play the game "their way", even if "their way" of playing the game hinges upon making it less fun for others. That alone is not a sufficient defense when the fun those players have comes at the expense of many more.

Playing with other players is not really a core aspect to the game.  The only thing that out right encourages it is the fact that there are more resources going around when you do.  Frames do not play well with other frames and synergies are few and far between.  It's not a coop game.  People do not work together in the average mission.  It's merely 4 players playing in the same space.  It is not convoluted at all in order to make your own group.  I've made more than a handful of them JUST looking for others with the same relic to crack open.  Takes all of maybe 5 minutes to accomplish.  Your problem is that you assume that something is wrong when something isn't fun.  It's also not an excuse.  it's literally how it is.  It's been DE's point whenever it's been brought up.  They give us these tools for a reason.

17 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

While the above is an extreme example, the same arguments can be applied to frames that are currently notorious for the issues they cause, namely Saryn, Limbo, Equinox/Ember at times, etc. The problem with these frames isn't that players aren't going out of their way to avoid playing with them, but that these frames give players incentive to do so in the first place. In all of these cases, these frames typically generate frustration because they remove interaction from missions: Saryn, Equinox and Ember (also Volt) are all capable of single-handedly killing all enemies in a large radius and through walls, given the right enemy level, and so quicker than anyone else can go around and fight them. Limbo is a special case in that his kit is built to remove physical interaction between different elements of the game, which just so happens to include allies. In all of these cases, these frames are not great to play with, because while it's okay for some players to kill more enemies than others, it's generally not considered okay for a single player to be able to kill all the enemies, and so without the consent of their allies.

Saryn needs allies to help her keep her spores going.  She can't be everywhere.  If she doesn't keep them up evenly then they smother out and stop spreading.  her spore ability is built like this on purpose so her team can help her.  Limbo plays well with others.  He can act as a choke point, a second layer of defense for the objective, he can isolate pockets of enemies or a problem target.  Limbo is only bad for his team in the hands of someone who doesn't know how to use him.  Equinox is also very much a team player.  She has a panic heal for her team.  She can boost team defenses.  and she can mass sleep things for her allies to get extra damage multipliers on.  She's just seen as a "nuker" because people misrepresent her and only use her nuke ability.  That's not the frame's problem.  Ember can also be quite the support player with good CC and buffs on allies.

17 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

My personal take on Saryn in particular I'd say is quite simple: her current kit is mostly fine, but her Spores just need to be unable to deal lethal damage. If Saryn could bring all enemies down to 1 health from across the map, she may in fact become amazingly fun to play with, because she'd become one of the best kill enablers in the game. In most cases, there wouldn't be much of a difference in clear speeds, because those enemies would be so weakened that they'd die just as quickly, but the difference in gameplay would be massive for Saryn and her allies, because everyone would have a fair chance of killing those weakened enemies, and Saryn herself could have an added layer of gameplay from being able to hold her plague for longer in certain locations. I don't doubt that there'd be players who'd push back against this, but overall I'd still say it could be a win-win for everyone involved.

Saryn doesn't need to change.  If her spores are the primary source of things dying then her spores are not spreading.  Which means eventually she has to start her cycle again.  If her spores ARE constantly everywhere then that means her team is helping them do so by popping them to spread them or killing the enemies to spread them (but in a smaller radius.)  There are other frames out there that already enable allies to kill.  Saryn does this a bit her self with both viral procs and corrosive procs.  She just happens to be able to kill things as well.