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Excalibur Umbra zero affinity discourages use of his passive


apostateCourier
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I understand that DE does not like passive play. However, Excal Umbra's passive generates zero affinity while in operator mode- meaning you earn less affinity than if you were using a normal warframe. I find it odd that, mechanically, it's a bad idea to use Umbra to do the cool thing with Umbra, because you're penalized for everything he kills. It doesn't even count as companion kills, or other player kills. The affinity is just gone.

I want to fight alongside my good buddy Excal Umbra, but I can't justify doing so because it slows down the focus and mastery grind even harder than just going it as a lone operator. DE, please reconsider Umbra's affinity nullification.

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Umbra isn't playing the game for me. He's fighting with me, at far lower effectiveness than I can as him myself. It's nowhere near as effective as apparently acceptable Saryn 4>win play.

It doesn't make sense to penalize the use of the only passive in the game that is supposed to encourage operator mode play.

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34 minutes ago, peterc3 said:

What is the player doing that should generate Affinity?

About as much or more than the average Saryn.

If they're producing results, I don't care what the other player is doing. Let them have affinity, save weird moralistic stances for things that matter ie not videogames.

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33 minutes ago, Parzii said:

so you're cool with Saryn getting tons of affinity for pressing one button?

Given we weren't talking about Saryn, I don't know why I would say anything about her. If we are, then I would say she needs another look to eliminate that part of her kit.

6 minutes ago, apostateCourier said:

What is the player doing to generate affinity when other players kill stuff near you? All I want is for Umbra to generate affinity like another player, at the same 75% rate.

Then let's get rid of shared Affinity. Umbra killing things is just the game playing itself. It is not from having X player spend time on the game and all the other players, who are also spending their time in the game, gain a bit.

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Just now, peterc3 said:

Given we weren't talking about Saryn, I don't know why I would say anything about her. If we are, then I would say she needs another look to eliminate that part of her kit.

Then let's get rid of shared Affinity. Umbra killing things is just the game playing itself. It is not from having X player spend time on the game and all the other players, who are also spending their time in the game, gain a bit.

So you want to discourage teamwork now? I don't understand your stance.

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5 minutes ago, peterc3 said:

Then let's get rid of shared Affinity. Umbra killing things is just the game playing itself. It is not from having X player spend time on the game and all the other players, who are also spending their time in the game, gain a bit.

Wait, so should Ember's World on Fire and Saryn's whole gimmick and all the other EVERYTHING EXPLODES skills just be removed? What if I get into a mission with someone running a maiming strike atterax build and just slide killing everything before I can even shoot them? Should I get zero affinity because someone else is REALLY GOOD at killing stuff?

There's no reason to stop affinity gain, especially when it's a core part of the frame's unique skillset.

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9 minutes ago, peterc3 said:

Given we weren't talking about Saryn, I don't know why I would say anything about her. If we are, then I would say she needs another look to eliminate that part of her kit.

Then let's get rid of shared Affinity. Umbra killing things is just the game playing itself. It is not from having X player spend time on the game and all the other players, who are also spending their time in the game, gain a bit.

I literally cannot think of a worse idea than taking away shared Affinity. One of the things that makes Warframe great, and one of the reasons the community is so chill, is that another player's presence has a very hard time making your experience actively worse/harder. Void Relics are a great example of how they structure this game to be as cooperative as possible.

Turning affinity gain into a competitive rat race would be an absurd disaster for this game and it boggles the mind that I even need to explain the negative effects that would have on player mentality lol.

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Well, here's the thing. After you get to level 30 and have all the Forma on him that you want, Excal Umbra doesn't need to generate Affinity for you.

The only thing you'd need Affinity for is Focus, at which point you would only have to directly pilot your Frame for the next 45 seconds or so, and then hop back out to carry on doing what you want.

17 hours ago, apostateCourier said:

Lorewise, gaining affinity from Umbra's actions makes sense as well. You're still connected by transferrence after all. Additionally, part of "mastering" Excalibur Umbra is learning how to fight with him as yourself. Tenno and Warframe as one, even as two.

Lorewise it most certainly does not make sense.

You are not connected by Transferrence to Umbra while you are in your Operator form, you are literally there on the ground, there is no Transference at all. That was the point of the quest, to show that the Warframe itself is intelligent and capable of independent action, and you are not in control of it in any way while you're out of it. And it's also why the other Warframes all stand still and wait for you to return in lockdown mode, because you're no longer controlling them.

Affinity is earned for gaining Mastery over your frame or weapon, if you are not using your frame or weapon yourself, how are you mastering it? You don't learn to fly a plane by putting it on Autopilot, you learn it by taking the controls.

Besides, the simple fact is that when you are fighting as yourself, that's how you earn Affinity for your own weapons, the Amps. If you were instead earning affinity for Umbra and the weapons he is using then you would not be levelling up the weapons you actually were trying to Master.

This isn't like an RPG where jumping out of Umbra has him join your Party, after all.

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If other players generate affinity/focus, there's no reason Umbra shouldn't. Additionally, of course you're connected to Umbra via transference- warframes act as a relay for you to be able to show up in the field.  Without the warframe there, you can't project yourself in the field.

Edited by apostateCourier
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3 hours ago, apostateCourier said:

If other players generate affinity/focus, there's no reason Umbra shouldn't. Additionally, of course you're connected to Umbra via transference- warframes act as a relay for you to be able to show up in the field.  Without the warframe there, you can't project yourself in the field.

That's patently false. Transference comes from you, the Operator, once you are in mission you have Transferred there yourself, physically and you are now the source of Transference in the new location.

The warframe is a beacon, not a relay, just as your Orbiter is a beacon now that you have all your powers, while before it was a Relay that allowed you to project from the Reservoir to your Warframe and then from the Orbiter itself when you were not in control of your powers. But again, you are now the source of the power of Transference, the Warframe is just a vessel and the source of the Abilities (because the Warframe is just a very specialised Infested/Human hybrid with its own powers).

Other players generate affinity/focus from your kills because of Affinity Share, and for them works exactly the same way as it's working for you; if they are in their Warframe and using their weapons, the Affinity is gained by them for those Warframes and Weapons. If they are out of their frames, the Affinity is gained by them for their Amps.

There is a very clear reason why Umbra does not and should not generate Affinity, because you are the one that needs it, not Umbra. Umbra does not need to Master itself, you need to learn to Master it.

Regardless of whether you are controlling the Warframe or not, Affinity is something that you, the character, gain. Not the Warframes. Each rank you gain on your Warframe is not the Warframe ranking up, it's your Mastery of it.

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I'd like to add that a similar issue comes up with companions. Companion kills grant others affinity but not yourself. This feels like the game is punishing me for having a good companion build.

The game gives us mechanics/systems and then discourages their use, and this discrepancy needs to be solved.

Edited by AliceLaFay
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Okay but if it's okay for me to get mastery for my guns and frames by being around other players doing things, why do I not get affinity for Umbra doing things? I'm okay with it functioning exactly like shared affinity- on the stuff I currently have equipped. So, my amp.

 

Additionally, if we were there in the flesh we wouldn't pop like an astral projection on "death" and be able to pop back good as new in seconds. Every time we've been somewhere physically as ourselves, getting killed causes a game over state.

Edited by apostateCourier
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1 hour ago, apostateCourier said:

Okay but if it's okay for me to get mastery for my guns and frames by being around other players doing things, why do I not get affinity for Umbra doing things? I'm okay with it functioning exactly like shared affinity- on the stuff I currently have equipped. So, my amp.

Again, because it's you, the character, the Tenno earning Affinity. Umbra doesn't earn you affinity, you earn affinity while being in Umbra. Other Tenno are around you, earning affinity, that's what's being shared.

The Warframes, spectres and companions do not earn you affinity, they are separate from you. The Tenno is you, and you are earning Affinity. The frame, when you're separated from it, does nothing with the one exception at the moment of Umbra, which can wander and perform actions like a companion or spectre.

1 hour ago, apostateCourier said:

Additionally, if we were there in the flesh we wouldn't pop like an astral projection on "death" and be able to pop back good as new in seconds. Every time we've been somewhere physically as ourselves, getting killed causes a game over state.

The 'game over' state as you're calling it is just the 'popping like an astral projection' that we see in the regular game. The only difference is we don't have a Warframe there to act as a beacon and immediately inhabit as our refuge

Getting 'killed' in the physical state makes us retreat us back into the in-between state that Transference has, that's all. We regenerate nearly instantly as long as we have a viable place to retreat to, such as a Warframe or the Orbiter.

It's not really all that complex of a system for staying alive when we would normally take fatal damage.

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How do you reconcile this issue mechanically? Why is it okay for a frame ability to cause disadvantage to the player? Why is it okay for companions- whom are configured by the player, with their strength dictated by the player's effort into strengthening them- actively detrimental to the player's advancement? Both should share affinity. Companions share affinity with other players-, not you, though. Why? I don't understand the logic.

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7 hours ago, apostateCourier said:

How do you reconcile this issue mechanically? Why is it okay for a frame ability to cause disadvantage to the player? Why is it okay for companions- whom are configured by the player, with their strength dictated by the player's effort into strengthening them- actively detrimental to the player's advancement? Both should share affinity. Companions share affinity with other players-, not you, though. Why? I don't understand the logic.

I reconcile it by the exact way that DE explained it to us.

It's not a disadvantage, it's literally how we separate what Affinity we gain on what specific weapon/frame/companion and make it fair for other players in the mission.

We, the Tenno, are gaining Affinity for Mastery over whatever we are using.

Whenever something is killed by anything we own, weapon, frame, companion, it generates Affinity for Mastery but depending on the circumstances it does not apportion that Affinity evenly, it is entirely dependent on whether or not we were using it at the time. This affinity is duplicated and given to others in Affinity Range. But Affinity Share apportions that Affinity in a different way to that Tenno than it does to us normally.

That's important to remember when thinking about this.

When your Companion kills something, the Affinity is allotted to your Mastery of your Companion and not to your Warframe or Weapons even if you're in your Warframe. When you kill something with your Warframe you gain Affinity for Mastery of your Warframe only. When you kill something with a Weapon, you gain Affinity for Mastery of that Weapon and your Warframe, split 50/50 to each. In both of those cases, though, your Companion does not earn Affinity for your Mastery of it, because it wasn't involved, and in none of those does your Amp, because it was not involved. If you use your Amp, only it gains Affinity for Mastery.

When an Ally's Companion, Warframe or Weapon kills something, Affinity Share apportions the exact same amount of Affinity to you, but it allots it differently based on what you're using. If you're in Tenno form, you earn it for your Amp, because that's where you are and what you're using. If you're in your Warframe it apportions it to the Warframe, Primary Weapon, Secondary Weapon and Melee. In neither case does it go to your Companion, because you're still earning it based on what you were using and your Companion was not involved in the kill.

The balance is so that you only can choose to deliberately gain Affinity for Mastery of what you are using, meaning that if you want to level up a specific thing you can tailor your gameplay.

  • If you want to level up your Amp Mastery, go into Operator mode and use it, soak up Affinity Share from allies.
  • If you want to level a Weapon's Mastery, un-equip all other weapons and use it, the Affinity Share from allies that would have gone to your other two weapons stacks into your only equipped weapon, meaning that it is apportioned 25/75 in favour of the weapon.
  • If you want to level a Warframe's Mastery, use only its abilities to kill enemies, or if there are no damaging casts on the frame, use abilities frequently and kill things with a weapon to gain the 50% bonus to your frame.
  • If you want to level a Companion's Mastery, keep it alive and let it do the killing, Affinity Share does not apply so best to go solo for that.

Because you can tailor your Affinity gain for each thing you are using, there are cases where other things are excluded. This is not a disadvantage, it's deliberate design in order to be able to maximise your gains if you learn how.

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But the Umbra generates zero affinity for your amp. That means that running Operator with Umbra is worse for you than not using Umbra, since he steals your XP. I want him to share, because that would make his passive not detrimental.

I want the affinity to go to my amp. I'm with you there.

Edit: After testing, companions don't generate affinity for themselves while you're in Operator mode.  I seriously doubt that's intended behavior.

Edited by apostateCourier
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