Excalibur Umbra zero affinity discourages use of his passive

[(PSN)Ozymandias-13-]

I was kinda torn on this issue because of good arguments on both sides so I decided to do some research to see how similar xp is handled in game.

Here is the companion xp information below. My multi-forma Huras kubrow can deal more damage on a single target than most of my teammates (he can eat a Nox as easy as a doggy treat) and I gain no affinity for those kills. If he provides me no affinity (because they don't you gaining xp passively while he does the work) then I see no reason why an Umbra should be any different.

Companion Affinity

Companions gain their own Affinity, similar to Tenno.

• The Companion kills an enemy. Total Affinity upon kills is equal to that gained by Tenno. The owner of the Companion gains no Affinity.
  • Kills with its weapon. Affinity is split between the Companion and its weapon 50/50%.
  • Kills with an ability. 100% Affinity to the Companion.
• The Companion uses an ability. Amount varies by ability.^{[investigation needed]} 100% goes to the Companion.
• A nearby Tenno, but not the Companion's owner, kills an enemy. Affinity gained by the Companion does not detract from that gained by its owner.
  • Affinity is split between the Companion and its weapon 50/50%.
  • 100% Affinity to the Companion in the absence of a weapon.

[Birdframe_Prime]

1 hour ago, apostateCourier said:

But the Umbra generates zero affinity for your amp.

No, but neither does he generate Affinity for your Weapons or himself. It's exactly the same way that your Companion doesn't generate any Affinity for your gear when it kills.

Look, just because Umbra turns into a Companion, rather than staying as a Warframe, when you go into Tenno mode does not make it a disadvantage. Your Affinity gain from other players does not change, and all kills you make with your Amp still gain Affinity too.

It's simply a matter of acknowledging that, instead of just having a sentinel or pet that's running around doing its own thing, now you have a Warframe doing it. It's probably the exact reason why Umbra immediately deactivates Exalted Blade when you jump out and instead does a Radial Howl; so that he is not actually killing things for a bit and instead helping you to get kills with your Amp.

While you're in Tenno mode on any other Warframe, does having a sentinel or pet actually inconvenience you that much? So if Umbra isn't doing anything more than they are, what is the real problem?

Other than your original perception that you want to 'fight alongside' a literal NPC, I mean.

[apostateCourier]

1 hour ago, Thaylien said:

Other than your original perception that you want to 'fight alongside' a literal NPC, I mean.

I'm not going to be shamed about being invested in the story stuff.  It's a cool thing that DE wants us to do.  Excalibur Umbra is a really obvious push for more Operator mode use, and that shouldn't be a detriment.  Everything he shoots or stabs is lost affinity, which on a mechanical level makes me not want to use him for Operator mode play.  With a decent gun in hand- and why wouldn't I use good equipment- Excalibur Umbra is far more effective than any other companion as far as raw damage output goes.  It's a little disingenuous to say they have the same effect on Operator mode play.

Edited November 28, 2018 by apostateCourier

[Birdframe_Prime]

2 hours ago, apostateCourier said:

Everything he shoots or stabs is lost affinity

But how is it lost? If you're level 30 then it simply doesn't matter, and if you're still levelling why the heck are you using Operator Mode instead of using Excal to kill things?Affinity is still shared with your allies, and no companion earns it for you regardless of whether it's Excal, a Sentinel or a Pet.

Warframe is a grind game, if you are not grinding Affinity, then you're grinding something else. If Excal needs levels, then grind those levels, after that it doesn't matter in the slightest.

And... you may have missed the point with a lot of companions if you think that Umbra is better for DPS, but then again if he's doing the best for you then you haven't gotten to the level of play where the Kavats or Moas really shine.

[apostateCourier]

Affinity becomes focus if you have a lens, c'mon now. I play Operator mode because (gasp) I enjoy it! I like it even better when my Stand-I-mean-Warframe is fighting alongside me. It's a fun gimmick, I just don't want it to be a detriment to my focus gains.

Edited November 28, 2018 by apostateCourier

[Morgana_Arcana]

8 hours ago, Thaylien said:

When your Companion kills something, the Affinity is allotted to your Mastery of your Companion and not to your Warframe or Weapons even if you're in your Warframe.

Well you can't put a lens on your companion, so it is a disadvantage.

[Morgana_Arcana]

29 minutes ago, Thaylien said:

But how is it lost? If you're level 30 then it simply doesn't matter,

....

then you haven't gotten to the level of play where the Kavats or Moas really shine.

We have progression at level 30, it's called lenses.

 

Also companions vs umbra isn't an either/or thing, you get both.
I assume they're in the game to be used.

[Birdframe_Prime]

39 minutes ago, AliceLaFay said:

We have progression at level 30, it's called lenses.

Yeah, and in the discussion earlier I pointed out this: The division is so that you can choose to maximise your Affinity gain based on what you play and how you play it.

If you're trying to earn Focus, then earn Focus, why would you be attempting to farm Focus while in Operator mode when you know your Operator doesn't gain Focus?

And if you're suggesting that Umbra, an NPC on par with a companion, should be able to do that, then you haven't noticed that even the OP realises that it's not something DE are going to do.

[apostateCourier]

6 hours ago, (PS4)Riko_113 said:

 

(Ignore the emptyquote, I can't figure out how to get rid of it on my phone)

I do get Focus on my Operator. I lens my amps. Plus, Operators not generating focus on their primary school by default seems weird to me anyway (considering that Focus is all about getting better at fighting as yourself), but that's a different discussion.

Edited November 28, 2018 by apostateCourier

[Birdframe_Prime]

10 hours ago, apostateCourier said:

Plus, Operators not generating focus on their primary school by default seems weird to me anyway (considering that Focus is all about getting better at fighting as yourself), but that's a different discussion.

It is, but one I'd far rather be talking about, because it's one I think is far more likely to happen than AFK farming exploits...

[apostateCourier]

You think this is about AFK farming?  Way off the mark.  Regardless, I'm in a Syndicate mission right now- and Umbra appears to be feeding affinity to my amp now.  Interesting.

Update: it only works in syndicate missions.  Interesting!

Edited November 29, 2018 by apostateCourier

[Birdframe_Prime]

27 minutes ago, apostateCourier said:

You think this is about AFK farming?  Way off the mark.

Then what is it about? You want to earn affinity for kills you aren't making. That is an AFK farming exploit. Even if you, specifically you, are actively participating in the mission as an Operator, it's still an exploit according to the guidelines that DE gave us when they defined how Affinity gets earned. You may use it right, thousands of others won't.

If Excal is feeding Affinity to you in Syndicate missions, it's likely that the Syndicate NPCs feed you Affinity as Affinity Share too. This is likely a bug, so don't count on it.

[apostateCourier]

22 minutes ago, Thaylien said:

Then what is it about? You want to earn affinity for kills you aren't making. That is an AFK farming exploit. Even if you, specifically you, are actively participating in the mission as an Operator, it's still an exploit according to the guidelines that DE gave us when they defined how Affinity gets earned. You may use it right, thousands of others won't.

If Excal is feeding Affinity to you in Syndicate missions, it's likely that the Syndicate NPCs feed you Affinity as Affinity Share too. This is likely a bug, so don't count on it.

It's about making the unique thing about Excal Umbra not be a drawback, especially given that it's the ONLY Warframe passive that encourages Operator play.

"Earn affinity for kills you aren't making."  Y'know, the exact thing that happens when playing with other people?  I do not understand your stance.  Beyond that, Umbra is hardly an effective affinity/focus battery on his own.  He can be disabled by the enemy, much like your companions (which do not generate focus, but they DO self-generate affinity which does count towards Mastery).

Edited November 29, 2018 by apostateCourier

[imbressive]

to rank up amps you need to be in operator mode, in this time non of your other equipment is gaining affinity, but all the affinity goes to you (operator) and what u have equipped on him (amp).

it doesn't really discourage using umbras passive, simply you cant level up weapons with him as dps while you are in operator mode (no matter if u actively kill or afk while in operator. mode)

[apostateCourier]

Just now, imbressive said:

to rank up amps you need to be in operator mode, in this time non of your other equipment is gaining affinity, but all the affinity goes to you (operator) and what u have equipped on him (amp).

it doesn't really discourage using umbras passive, simply you cant level up weapons with him as dps while you are in operator mode (no matter if u actively kill or afk while in operator. mode)

I want him to share affinity to my amp, like every other non-me source of affinity does, while I'm in Operator mode.

[imbressive]

sorry,then i misunderstood u, i trough you were talking about equipment on the warframe not getting any affinity, but you font get any affinity at all? 😞

 

[apostateCourier]

Just now, imbressive said:

sorry,then i misunderstood u, i trough you were talking about equipment on the warframe not getting any affinity, but you font get any affinity at all? 😞

 

Correct.  As is, zero affinity is generated when Umbra kills things while you are in Operator mode.

[Kromatia]

While I don't think Umbra's companion affinity share status should change, it's a touch inconsistent with other aspects of the game. I have seen my pistols rank up when given to an operative in say a rescue mission or sortie defense. I am not using it, but I'm still getting levels? While that's nice and all, it's inconsistent with the way companions and Umbra work and generate affinity. Shouldn't the pistol in the hands of the operative NPC not generate affinity?

[Nagshell]

I'd like to share my stance on this issue.

 

Looking at this situation once again, we are talking about situation where while using Excalibur Umbra you use Operator Mode. At this point frame passive ability activates, turning usually idle and invincible statue into companion that helps you in battle. And then it kills something.

 

And now comes a question - where does affinity from that kill go?

To answer that question I'd rather ask another one - what did the killing? In my opinion we can look at it in two proper ways:

• Passive ability of player's warframe - it would make sense that all affinity goes to frame.
• NPC companion - it would make sense all affinity goes to companion. But that's companion doesn't exist in player's loudout, so no affinity gain? Or is that companion actually just player's waframe, again leading me to all affinity going to frame.
• Actual weapon/ability used by Umbra Companion - affinity gets handled in usual Warframe manner. He/She/It killed with a primary weapon, wouldn't make it sense for it to be handled as player's kill using that weapon?

My personal final verdict would be that Excalibur Umbra warframe should get all affinity generated by a kill done by it's passive ability.

Also I would like to look at other options and give my reasons why they do not make as much sense:

• Player's using Operator mode to activate that ability, shouldn't he get part of affinity? Not really, because we can't control Umbra at all, so what part of us should get credit? Not like Operator can gain affinity at all anyway.
• Operator's Amp? And how did it contribute to the killing?
• NPC - Umbra's influence let's call it aka affinity vanishes - actually it makes a bit more sense, but I agree with OP that's detrimental to the grinding experience. It's really not that hard to come up with other ways to combat afk farming that would make sense lore and gameplay wise while not decreasing active player's gains.

 

I think the most "game'y" aspect of all affinity related topics is this sneaky thing "Team members sharing their affinity". What is actual reason behind allies getting not part, but actual copy of affinity we get from kill? To make party play more balanced of course. Lorewise? pff, I don't know. 'I guess they chat about it and share their experiences?'

 

TLDR and restating my stance: I think that affinity vanish is not good, amp's getting affinity is not good. Excalibur Umbra is doing the killing, Excalibur Umbra should get affinity.

 

Also there's no reason why companions shouldn't get affinity while you're in operator's mode, unless they also go statue-style.

[apostateCourier]

1 minute ago, Nagshell said:

ITLDR and restating my stance: I think that affinity vanish is not good, amp's getting affinity is not good. Excalibur Umbra is doing the killing, Excalibur Umbra should get affinity.

 

Also there's no reason why companions shouldn't get affinity while you're in operator's mode, unless they also go statue-style.

I'm also okay with this.

[Chaemyerelis]

🤦‍♂️

[Birdframe_Prime]

10 hours ago, apostateCourier said:

Y'know, the exact thing that happens when playing with other people?

You earn Affinity for things that other people kill as long as you are in Affinity Range, they earn Affinity for things that anything you own kills.

Umbra killing things while you're out of it doesn't affect any other player but you, and by making it not affect you it prevents AFK farming.

What is so hard to understand about my stance? Umbra, by DE's classification, becomes limited by not feeding you Affinity while you are out specifically so you don't have a way to AFK farm.

As I said, even if you would actively play along and contribute, you are in the vast minority. Your enjoyment is sacrificed because of the proven nature of other gamers throughout the history of Warframe.

[Nagshell]

4 hours ago, Thaylien said:

Umbra killing things while you're out of it doesn't affect any other player but you, and by making it not affect you it prevents AFK farming.

Personally I agree that this a legitimate issue, but I'll repeat myself and say that there are so many other ways that this could've been handled that would both prevent afk-farm and not make the effect detrimental to the active player.

I mean, as simple as lore-friendly-ish NPC Umbra losing control of Excalibur after for example 30 sec of player inactivity. 30 seconds is surely fair, as for example Octavias 1 - Mallet let's her pretty much afk for a duration of 40+ seconds.

I see no reason while there "should" be a affinity void in game.

[apostateCourier]

7 hours ago, Thaylien said:

You earn Affinity for things that other people kill as long as you are in Affinity Range, they earn Affinity for things that anything you own kills.

Umbra killing things while you're out of it doesn't affect any other player but you, and by making it not affect you it prevents AFK farming.

What is so hard to understand about my stance? Umbra, by DE's classification, becomes limited by not feeding you Affinity while you are out specifically so you don't have a way to AFK farm.

As I said, even if you would actively play along and contribute, you are in the vast minority. Your enjoyment is sacrificed because of the proven nature of other gamers throughout the history of Warframe.

I find the assumptions about my character ("even if you would actively play along" implies that you assume I wouldn't) to be insulting. I also find your assertions that anti-AFK trumps basic functionality to be disingenuous. DE clearly wants us to use Operator mode more. Can you think of anything other than Umbra that encourages (without demanding) consistent Operator mode play?

[Birdframe_Prime]

2 hours ago, apostateCourier said:

I find the assumptions about my character ("even if you would actively play along" implies that you assume I wouldn't) to be insulting.

I find your logic questionable, I literally say that I expect you to play conscientiously and warn you that other players wouldn't, and you take insult.

There is nothing in my text, even taken out of context, that implies any assumption about your character other than that, because this whole thread is you wanting to use your Operator more, I expect you to actually use your Operator.

I am not your enemy here that you have to try and defeat, I am questioning your logic, poking holes, because if I can find them as a faceless person on the internet, you can bet your last butt-cheek that the actual people programming this game can find them.

2 hours ago, apostateCourier said:

I also find your assertions that anti-AFK trumps basic functionality to be disingenuous.

It's the stated reason that spectres and companions don't grant the player Affinity directly, how is that disingenuous?

Within one week of his release, Umbra was being used by enough players to AFK farm credits in the Index mode, that DE patched that function (by and large) out immediately. Players do that. We've had 5 years to learn that players do that. Every time.

It's like the way that DE limit Standing and even Focus to a daily value, because players can, do and forevermore will find ways to grind without putting in the effort or, if they have to put in effort, in the minimum time for that effort.

(We even researched the optimum way to farm it once, the best method that was found was using Banshee for her neutral range Silence on high-level Extermination missions, and exploiting the Stealth Multiplier with Melee. Combine this specific method with an Eidolon Lens on both Banshee and a Melee weapon, an Affinity Booster and the Naramon focus school, testing over the course of months showed that you could earn between 60,000 and 90,000 Focus per run. Meaning that you could max your daily limit of 250,000 in 3-5 runs, and the max limit of an MR25 of 375,000 in 4-7 runs, each run only taking 3-6 minutes if you were going fast enough. It worked out that using this method the average player within the testing group could earn 1,200,000 Focus in under an hour. The total time to completely max out Focus, therefore, was only around 44 hours, if you really pushed for it. And you know the internet, somebody would stream it, they would take two days, with a short break every now and then, and try to max Focus in the shortest amount of time. Turning a system that was created with the intent to take months, reduced by eidolon shards, into a competition that would only take some players only days.)

DE know their player base, they put in checks like this everywhere to try and prevent exploits exactly like this.

2 hours ago, apostateCourier said:

DE clearly wants us to use Operator mode more. Can you think of anything other than Umbra that encourages (without demanding) consistent Operator mode play?

Do you know why there isn't anything, even Umbra, that encourages rather than demands Operator play?

Because DE have not implemented anything that actually encourages it yet. Not for lack of trying, but they haven't.

Currently DE wants us to blend short bursts of Operator activity with our Warframe gameplay, not because they don't want us to use Operators, but because they are cautious of the rather large section of the player base that doesn't want anything to do with Operators, ever, and believes that if they had never unlocked Operators in the first place, their game would be better for it.

When operators were revealed, it was a lore hit, a story, and a fantastic boost to the game as a whole for most players. But others... nope. The backlash from players that wanted to 'shove that kid back in the tube and pretend it never fell out' was actually quite surprising. Those players varied from ones who immersed themselves into the game in the belief that the Warframes were actually the player, inhabiting the different forms, to ones that believed the Warframes were just humans under the masks and they were real characters that they could give personalities to, all the way through to the ones that just saw another grind gimmick. Here on the Forums there was a lot of hate.

DE are still trying to find ways for Operators to have their own actual game play function that does not overshadow Warframes or force players to use one thing over the other. Currently they haven't come up with either, the only way they can ensure Operators are used by everyone at least minimally is to have some sections of the game be mandatory to use them, like Kuva and Eidolons, and the only way that they can be made to not overshadow Warframes is to give them low damage weapons, no melee, and ensure that the only real bonuses they get from their schools either specifically buff the Warframes, specifically only affect other Operators, or allow the Operator to actually not be one-shot so easily in the lower levels of play.

There is no encouragement to use Operators for extended periods outside of the mandatory sections where their specific damage or ability sets are necessary. Even Umbra does not encourage operator gameplay, becuase he uses Spectre AI, which is bog-standard terrible. With the way his AI works we're lucky that he even points the gun in the right direction, and forget actually using combinations of functions like 'blind and stealth-kill', or even just Exalted Blade.

Operators in their stats, their abilities, their weapons and their role in the game, are here to appear, buff and debuff, maybe take down a Kuva Siphon or an Eidolon Shield, and then leave. Warframe is still (and likely to be for a while) designed around Warframes.

Do I like this state of affairs? Not really no. But do I expect things to change? Sure.

Umbra will still not generate Affinity for you while you aren't using him, because he uses the Companion rule for Affinity Share, which is there so that Companions and Spectres can't be used for AFK farming.

There are AFK rules that time you out of Affinity Share from allies for the same reason, they already exist and they are quite fair, a player must fulfil several functions in a mission before they can avoid the AFK penalty like that. But unlike in a team setting, where there is some lee-way for when the other players are killing everything and you're not able to do things for a bit, in your own case there are straight up rules about where you simply do not earn Affinity from certain sources so that AFK farming doesn't even work for the couple of minutes that it does from your team members.

I'm not arguing theory, this isn't some great debate that you're having to out-play me on, it's the stated reason from the game's creators.