Jump to content
Dante Unbound: Share Bug Reports and Feedback Here! ×

Excalibur Umbra zero affinity discourages use of his passive


apostateCourier
 Share

Recommended Posts

On 2018-11-27 at 3:25 PM, AliceLaFay said:

I'd like to add that a similar issue comes up with companions. Companion kills grant others affinity but not yourself. This feels like the game is punishing me for having a good companion build.

The game gives us mechanics/systems and then discourages their use, and this discrepancy needs to be solved.

the game punishes people for playing actively when it comes to affinity. ive proved this in a thread i made about the affinity system. a person can join a squad sit and do nothing and not only max out their gear but gain alot of focus thanks to shared affinity where if a person is actively capturing points or killing the only thing they get is affinity with what is used.

system needs an overhaul. players should gain affinity for being active regardless of if they are playing as umbra excaliber or operator. @Thaylien while excal is in sentient mode he just turns into another weapon so yes you should get affinity for it.

Edited by EinheriarJudith
Link to comment
Share on other sites

21 hours ago, EinheriarJudith said:

@Thaylien while excal is in sentient mode he just turns into another weapon so yes you should get affinity for it.

If this was true, then it would already be the case, EJ. I'm not even saying that to be flippant, DE knows what they want to happen in terms of Affinity gain. Call this an appeal to authority argument if you will, but I'm being strictly logical with it. If it was the intended function for a Warframe to gain Affinity while you were not in control of it, Umbra or not, then it would do that.

So no, Excal does not turn into another Weapon, he turns into a Spectre. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

55 minutes ago, Thaylien said:

If this was true, then it would already be the case, EJ. I'm not even saying that to be flippant, DE knows what they want to happen in terms of Affinity gain. Call this an appeal to authority argument if you will, but I'm being strictly logical with it. If it was the intended function for a Warframe to gain Affinity while you were not in control of it, Umbra or not, then it would do that.

So no, Excal does not turn into another Weapon, he turns into a Spectre. 

a spectre is a weapon. anything you take into the mission can be used as a weapon. your guns, your melee, your pets/ally there is no difference. spectre is just classification of weapon.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

41 minutes ago, EinheriarJudith said:

a spectre is a weapon.

No, no it's not. According to how Spectres function in Warframe, they're Gear. That's what Excal Umbra becomes when he is in autonomous mode; utility, gear.

But you're arguing semantics, my friend, it literally does not matter what you classify him as. It's what the game does, and that is not an accident.

Umbra does not earn Affinity for your Mastery of his functions while you are not controlling him. If this was supposed to be different, then the current state would be a bug, patched in the half-a-year since Umbra's release. 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

16 hours ago, apostateCourier said:

Why is it reasonable, in your mind, for a warframe ability to be detrimental to the player?

You're claiming something is detrimental when all it's doing is following the rules as laid out.

If you want to earn Affinity for one thing or another, then farm Affinity for it, if you want to complete an objective in game, work to complete it. In this specific case, those two things cannot be done at once, and that is the design.

If it did not follow those rules it would be allowing something that DE have expressly made sure it cannot do, which is specifically earn Affinity while acting on its own, while you are not controlling it, and while the player is potentially AFK.

What you think you're complaining about is that it's unfair you can't fulfil a role-play situation where Umbra is an equal and can fight alongside you.

What you are actually complaining about, by virtue of what you want to actually happen, is not that.

What you are complaining about is not being able to do something that specifically, deliberately, has been stopped by the Devs. It has been stopped for the express purpose of preventing a certain type of behaviour in the massive player base of the game who would, without question, exploit it.

They were fully aware of this when they created Umbra and, if you want to consider it this way, it is the actual cost of having a 'sentient' warframe. The cost is that the warframe and your weapons equipped to it do not gain Affinity while you are not controlling it, and that the kills it makes do not positively influence you with the exception that you haven't had to kill those enemies yourself, you got those kills for free.

You want to earn Affinity, that's fine, go earn it in the best way you can. You want Umbra to play half the game for you instead, fine, but you get consequences for that.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It is a known fact that the game is not well balanced when it comes to affinity gain. It benefits nuking warframes, and Saryn is at the top end of the curve. 

Operators are at the bottom end, Umbra or not. They have a few things that discourage frequent operator-ing, and a reasonably long focus farm time before they become even moderately effective. 

Comparing Umbra's mode of operation to a spectre is very fair, logical thinking, as it behaves just like one.

I wouldn't write off Umbra's XP gain as 'the cost of having it', because every other frame has a passive, which does not prevent the player from gaining XP.

Encouraging Operator play with Umbra Is important to make it more relevant, and may be more important in the future, if/when more Umbras come around, or the ability to unlock "Umbra" on existing warframes comes around. 

The game is constantly evolving and being rebalanced, and IMO Operator play in general, and Umbral play specifically, are areas which can make do with an improvement. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

18 hours ago, apostateCourier said:

Why is it reasonable, in your mind, for a warframe ability to be detrimental to the player?

That's your opinion, not theirs. That kinda qualifies as a strawman btw.

Your argument is also based on a questionable premise, that the ability being discussed has a truly detrimental impact on the player. It arguably does NO such thing.

Does Umbra provide covering fire while you go into spoiler mode? Yup, and that's a VERY handy plus. Having Umbra not gain affinity while you're in spoiler mode is nothing more than an inconvenience.

31 minutes ago, BrazilianJoe said:

It is a known fact that the game is not well balanced when it comes to affinity gain. It benefits nuking warframes, and Saryn is at the top end of the curve. 

Sad and very true, whether certain try-hards and forum warriors care to admit that or not.

32 minutes ago, BrazilianJoe said:

Operators are at the bottom end, Umbra or not. They have a few things that discourage frequent operator-ing, and a reasonably long focus farm time before they become even moderately effective. 

Comparing Umbra's mode of operation to a spectre is very fair, logical thinking, as it behaves just like one.

I wouldn't write off Umbra's XP gain as 'the cost of having it', because every other frame has a passive, which does not prevent the player from gaining XP.

Encouraging Operator play with Umbra Is important to make it more relevant, and may be more important in the future, if/when more Umbras come around, or the ability to unlock "Umbra" on existing warframes comes around. 

The game is constantly evolving and being rebalanced, and IMO Operator play in general, and Umbral play specifically, are areas which can make do with an improvement. 

Couldn't agree more and well said.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 2018-11-26 at 11:13 AM, Fiaryn said:

I literally cannot think of a worse idea than taking away shared Affinity. One of the things that makes Warframe great, and one of the reasons the community is so chill, is that another player's presence has a very hard time making your experience actively worse/harder. Void Relics are a great example of how they structure this game to be as cooperative as possible.

Turning affinity gain into a competitive rat race would be an absurd disaster for this game and it boggles the mind that I even need to explain the negative effects that would have on player mentality lol.

Either that or leech. Theres no in between.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Here's a thought- Companions are equipment, yes? They self generate affinity with zero input from you. Umbra is also equipment that can act on its own. Why does it make sense for one to self generate affinity and not the other?

Also an "inconvenience" is a detriment by definition.

Edited by apostateCourier
Link to comment
Share on other sites

16 hours ago, apostateCourier said:

Also an "inconvenience" is a detriment by definition.

Ummm...no it isn't.

Definition of Inconvenience

Definition of Detriment

Not gaining affinity for you is an inconvenience, as it does not have a negative impact on your ability to survive / accomplish a mission. It does not harm you, the player, in any way. It merely slows progress in terms of gaining / increasing combat efficiency.

Not being able to adequately support you in spoiler mod would be a detriment, as it would have a negative impact on your ability to survive / accomplish a mission.

Edited by MirageKnight
Link to comment
Share on other sites

13 hours ago, apostateCourier said:

Companions are equipment, yes? They self generate affinity with zero input from you.

Companions do not generate Affinity for your Warframe or Weapons, either. You only gain Affinity for your Warframe and Weapons when you are controlling them.

If you are not controlling your Warframe or your Weapons you do not, and should not, gain Affinity for them.

As I said, you can consider it a cost. You are paying for the ability to have your Warframe autonomously control itself and act without your express direction by not generating affinity for it's Mastery while it does that.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On ‎27‎/‎11‎/‎2018 at 9:56 AM, Thaylien said:

That's patently false. Transference comes from you, the Operator, once you are in mission you have Transferred there yourself, physically and you are now the source of Transference in the new location.

You have taken an accurate description of how transference works, and then tried to extend it in the shakiest, most nonsensical way imaginable to how affinity in the game works. Whether and whatever the "lore" is with Excalibur umbra, it is a frame that people play just like all the other frames they play and get affinity for the team while doing so. 

To the topic, would like to play Umbra more, but the affinity issue keeps me from it. In a game cram full of OP 1-2 button press AOE cheeze that better games limit with target, range, dmg caps, etc., claiming that Umbra is "playing the game for you" is not a convincing argument. Of course Umbra should get affinity from kills from its passive. Until they do away with Peacemaker, Spores, the entire Limbo frame and a whole bunch of other smelly cheeze, that is only fair.

Edited by Buttaface
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 2018-11-29 at 5:36 PM, apostateCourier said:

It's about making the unique thing about Excal Umbra not be a drawback

Literally every Sentinel, Kavat, and Kubrow have the same drawback. I haven't seen many posts over the last few years saying it's ruining their reason to use them. If that's the only deciding factor in using him for you feel free to go back to vanilla Excalibur.

On 2018-11-29 at 5:36 PM, apostateCourier said:

it's the ONLY Warframe passive that encourages Operator play.

Operators themselves encourage Operator play if you put the effort in them. Umbra just allows you to get more out of that, think of it that way instead of the other way around.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

50 minutes ago, Buttaface said:

You have taken an accurate description of how transference works, and then tried to extend it in the shakiest, most nonsensical way imaginable to how affinity in the game works. Whether and whatever the "lore" is with Excalibur umbra, it is a frame that people play just like all the other frames they play and get affinity for the team while doing so. 

Actually, my friend, read on through a little more, you would find that there are far more firm arguments to go on about Affinity. The comment was made in response to the fact that they were completely misunderstanding what Transference was, and then the conversation moved on to more logical and factual reasons why Umbra, as a passive of autonomous movement, doesn't earn Affinity.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Thaylien said:

Companions do not generate Affinity for your Warframe or Weapons, either. You only gain Affinity for your Warframe and Weapons when you are controlling them.

If you are not controlling your Warframe or your Weapons you do not, and should not, gain Affinity for them.

As I said, you can consider it a cost. You are paying for the ability to have your Warframe autonomously control itself and act without your express direction by not generating affinity for it's Mastery while it does that.

They generate affinity for themselves, though- why shouldn't Umbra generate affinity for himself?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, apostateCourier said:

They generate affinity for themselves, though- why shouldn't Umbra generate affinity for himself?

Because it is a Warframe, something that you earn Affinity for while you use it and no Affinity can be earned while you don't use it. A companion has no way for you to 'use' them, so they gain Affinity for doing what they do. You do not earn Affinity for using a Spectre, and that is what Umbra becomes, not a companion, just a Spectre.

And this is the point that cannot seem to be emphasised enough; even though you think this would be a fair thing, it will be used for AFK farming. It is completely deliberate that Affinity gain for Umbra has been disabled while it's in autonomous mode.

No matter how you keep circling the point, it's right there.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

So I guess kills with Chroma's Effigy don't grant affinity either... erm wait. Whatever "afk farming" Umbra might be capable of, there are already similar mechanics ingame that grant affinity to the team.

Face it, there is no good reason that Umbra's passive doesn't grant affinity, all manner of rationalizations notwithstanding.

Also, saying that "there's more to the game than just gaining Mastery Points and Affinity" ^ is one of the dumbest things I've seen posted here and that's saying something. Bravo.

"There's more to the game than X" is not a reason against or rebuttal to any form of requested change, which is the specific intent of this forum and this thread.

 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

IMO there is no conspiracy or intended nerf on Umbra not giving affinity while e.g. Effigy does. 

It is just a matter that the player's Avatar is either the Operator or the Warframe, and the affinity gain is tied to which form the player is using. 

Umbra throws a wrench to the previous assumptions of affinity gain though, by bringing innovative gameplay.

Operator affinity gain is way overdue of a review, and Umbral gameplay only reinforced the visibility, while also being a special case of hybrid gameplay prompting the review of the previous assumptions.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

45 minutes ago, Buttaface said:

So I guess kills with Chroma's Effigy don't grant affinity either... erm wait.

Hah, the attempt...

Effigy does not earn you affinity while you are in Operator mode. Also, it deactivates when your frame runs out of energy. If you want to give an example of AFK farming that actually works, I'll be here.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Thaylien said:

Hah, the attempt...

Effigy does not earn you affinity while you are in Operator mode. Also, it deactivates when your frame runs out of energy. If you want to give an example of AFK farming that actually works, I'll be here.

Okay, here's another angle: Umbra as is is a trolling tool, because the affinity from his kills goes to no one- not even your squadmates. Removing affinity from the map entirely is anti-teamwork, which goes against core design philosophy.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

28 minutes ago, apostateCourier said:

Removing affinity from the map entirely is anti-teamwork, which goes against core design philosophy.

Again, you keep arguing this, and the answer remains; because the frame is capable of playing the game without player input on it, using fully modded weapons, it has a downside to using that.

It's not rationalisations or excuses, this is the actual reason why he doesn't. No matter what your opinion on it, the design choice was deliberate. Whether you think they are wrong or not doesn't change the fact that they already took in all of these considerations and points that you have come up with, and still did it. The behaviour that they are stopping is, based on this fact, more important to stop than any potential improvements that allowing it could bring.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
 Share

×
×
  • Create New...