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Excalibur Umbra zero affinity discourages use of his passive


apostateCourier
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11 minutes ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Yeah, but what if the rest of the team is just AFK'ing as well? Do you know why I ask that? Because they literally were. They literally were going into places like The Index and Rathuum and literally letting the frame play the mission while they got the rewards.

1. Again, where is this documented and any response by DE to it? Nowhere. You have a bad habit of trying to slant arguments in your favor by referencing to and presuming "intent" that isn't stated anywhere and doesn't in fact exist. That's the very opposite of being "reasonable."

2. Arguendo, that's a problem with Index and Rathuum then, or is it? IIRC, I've failed -1- of 100s, maybe more than 1000 by now of PUG Index, taking from 5-8 minutes, so if players are willing to stay the 5-8 minutes and get the credit reward, who cares whether the Umbra is killing things?  It's designed to be a FARM, a TIME GATE, not a  raid or challenge. Same as Rathuum. Point failed.

3. Effigy gets the team affinity, so should Umbra. Regardless of whatever vaporous rationalization you next offer, 4 Chromas can farm pretty much anything 4 Umbras can farm, especially augmented, and as a matter of irrefutable fact and not opinion, there are near infinite semi afk squads configurable that are FAR FAR more efficient than Umbra, all of those setups, every single one, granting affinity to the team.

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14 minutes ago, Buttaface said:

Effigy gets the team affinity, so should Umbra.

Effigy has a reason to, it costs, it's limited, it is an actual Ability. Umbra has a passive, costs nothing, and has none of the limitations that Effigy has. How are they in any way comparable?

If I'm presuming, then what the heck are the rest of you doing? If somebody like me can provide a simple reason why it isn't doing something, and all of your counters are either false equivalence to something that is in no way the same, or the blind belief that your momentary inconvenience is somehow a swaying argument in the matter, then you're the ones who are assuming things about this situation.

So far, everything in this thread has boiled down to a whine about not getting something just because.

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By far the game has promoted teamwork however it may (with a few outliers), and when it comes to leeching affinity, there are better and more efficient ways to do it than using Umbra (though it's pretty funny when it works). Given that other examples of specters/allies taking kills have allowed you to gain affinity with the sole exception of Umbra, I'm more inclined to think it is a bug. However, DE has promoted bugs to features before, so we'll see how it turns out.

But at least I admit that my view, being as it is, is a personal view, and I would not imply that I speak for DE in any capacity. In the end, my opinion matters as much as yours when it's time for DE to make their change. But at least we can voice the whys and why nots.

Edited by Lugwy
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1 hour ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

This whole thing is ridiculous, because if you're actually playing the game, then Umbra literally cannot take a meaningful amount of Affinity away from you, because his AI is crap.

You don't have to have good AI to murder everything in your eyesight range with a well modded Staticor you disingenuous troll.

You still haven't cited how Umbra is any different from Duality Equinox, for example, either, but that would require you to be arguing in good faith, which I think you are physically incapable of.

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18 hours ago, Kyrosiris said:

You still haven't cited how Umbra is any different from Duality Equinox, for example, either, but that would require you to be arguing in good faith

Actually, I have. Just like I was arguing against Effigy. Duality is an ability, it costs, it has a duration, it even costs an Augment slot. Umbra does not.

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Umbra is only active so long as he 1. Has HP and 2. Your operator stays alive. He also has restrictions, including the built in afk kick timer. Your arguments hold no water.

Edit: Just did an Index, and guess what still works?  Letting Umbra kill things and having someone else get the points that drop.  So what's this about DE's crusade against AFK farming?

Edited by apostateCourier
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I don't see the argument in this really. The passive costs nothing the AI is decently smart. Give it a sniper it'll headshot just about anything immediately. It litrally promotes laziness. And DE has tried to stop AFK affinity farming to an extent.

Everything else like effigy, duality, specters they all cost some thing and can die and need energy/materials.

Yes operator has hp and so does umbra but if your placing yourself correctly in the right tile set which is actually pretty damn easy or even sitting in a corner. What's stopping anyone from setting up a macros to void stealth your operator if your worried and reusing your operator mode for a refresh on umbra if he's even getting hit in the first place? It's pretty easy to do this. I watched a few people in the past set up a macros between keys in less than a minute. 

 

IN SAYING THIS HOWEVER.

I do agree that umbra should give affinity and maybe it's the way he works due to the passive and you being in operator state and he become a specter.

But I believe you should be active during this period. Not sitting around to gain affinity for your weapons.  You have an amp you have your school's abilites. If your doing some thing and your also making use of his passive you should be gaining some thing.

 

 

TLDR

This is a gray area an DE should specify on it.

No it shouldn't give affinity if your AFK or doing nothing.

Yes it should give affinity if your being active.

But like how do they do that? Just put his passive on a timer? Lol.

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On 2018-11-29 at 5:19 PM, Birdframe_Prime said:

Then what is it about? You want to earn affinity for kills you aren't making. That is an AFK farming exploit. Even if you, specifically you, are actively participating in the mission as an Operator, it's still an exploit according to the guidelines that DE gave us when they defined how Affinity gets earned. You may use it right, thousands of others won't.

Equinoxes duality augment gives you affinity, why shouldn't umbra passive? That's right, it should. Only gotta think about it to clock that.

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1 hour ago, FIDOISHERE said:

I don't see the argument in this really. The passive costs nothing the AI is decently smart. Give it a sniper it'll headshot just about anything immediately. It litrally promotes laziness. And DE has tried to stop AFK affinity farming to an extent.

Everything else like effigy, duality, specters they all cost some thing and can die and need energy/materials.

Yes operator has hp and so does umbra but if your placing yourself correctly in the right tile set which is actually pretty damn easy or even sitting in a corner. What's stopping anyone from setting up a macros to void stealth your operator if your worried and reusing your operator mode for a refresh on umbra if he's even getting hit in the first place? It's pretty easy to do this. I watched a few people in the past set up a macros between keys in less than a minute. 

 

IN SAYING THIS HOWEVER.

I do agree that umbra should give affinity and maybe it's the way he works due to the passive and you being in operator state and he become a specter.

But I believe you should be active during this period. Not sitting around to gain affinity for your weapons.  You have an amp you have your school's abilites. If your doing some thing and your also making use of his passive you should be gaining some thing.

 

 

TLDR

This is a gray area an DE should specify on it.

No it shouldn't give affinity if your AFK or doing nothing.

Yes it should give affinity if your being active.

But like how do they do that? Just put his passive on a timer? Lol.

Well if we're delving into the realm of macros, there are way better afk options than umbra. A duality equinox with macro to zenurik dash yourself then recast metamorphosis is LITERALLY just as afk, and better since you have a 300% specter damage buff. Just because an ability costs energy and has duration, doesn't mean jack if you factor in macros. 

And if you dont factor in macros, then you still have the same issue of specter umbra being worse than a lot of other setups, made worse by killing off affinity.

Is there a reason why we just don't wanna add this simple buff? It literally does nothing but put the ability in line with literally everything else, and if you really think it's because "people will afk farm" well then the entire structure of the affinity system is at fault, not one piece of the puzzle. If you really wanted there to be no afk farming, then you would have to suffer no team affinity, and no ability affinity, since you can macro for abilities easily. And that is not a world you want to live in unless youre a sadist or masochistic. 

Edited by birdobash
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I'd just like to point out that Venari is Khora's passive. When Venari kills, 100% of the affinity transfers to the frame. This single handedly ends about 90% or the argumentation here.

That said, the affinity gained is so little, I couldn't care less about it; That goes for Khorra and Excalibur Umbra. Three AABC runs of sanctuary onslaught nets me all 380k of my daily Focus. If your goal is affinity, AI is literally the last way to go about it.

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26 minutes ago, birdobash said:

Well if we're delving into the realm of macros, there are way better afk options than umbra. A duality equinox with macro to zenurik dash yourself then recast metamorphosis is LITERALLY just as afk, and better since you have a 300% specter damage buff. Just because an ability costs energy and has duration, doesn't mean jack if you factor in macros. 

And if you dont factor in macros, then you still have the same issue of specter umbra being worse than a lot of other setups, made worse by killing off affinity.

Is there a reason why we just don't wanna add this simple buff? It literally does nothing but put the ability in line with literally everything else, and if you really think it's because "people will afk farm" well then the entire structure of the affinity system is at fault, not one piece of the puzzle. If you really wanted there to be no afk farming, then you would have to suffer no team affinity, and no ability affinity, since you can macro for abilities easily. And that is not a world you want to live in unless youre a sadist or masochistic. 

Your still using energy for duality though and all the other abilites. The only thing your doing  with umbra is stealthing waiting then stealthing again. That was my point. It's not hard to macros that. Your doing nothing but that. IT COSTS NOTHING. Abilites do. Specters have a crafting time and materials your using some thing. umbra is FREE. And it's pretty easy to get since it's quest related. a group of people could stand in a corner lol and sit with all umbras walk away for 20 minutes.

I'm not making that my main thing either that the issues are macros. it's just another thing to look at..PEOPLE ABUSING THE PASSIVE. That's what I'm looking at. That's what it's boiling down too. And it can't be looked at the same as Abilities with costs and specters with costs and crafting time gates. Because again it's a passive it's FREE nothing to lose. Why gain anything?

 

I think some thing should be put in place where it shouldn't be abused and so you can gain affinity like normal.

 

Put him on a timer go back in come back out. give him a counter maybe? then allow him to get affinity on kills. Simple as that. 

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57 minutes ago, FIDOISHERE said:

Your still using energy for duality though and all the other abilites. The only thing your doing  with umbra is stealthing waiting then stealthing again. That was my point. It's not hard to macros that. Your doing nothing but that. IT COSTS NOTHING. Abilites do. Specters have a crafting time and materials your using some thing. umbra is FREE. And it's pretty easy to get since it's quest related. a group of people could stand in a corner lol and sit with all umbras walk away for 20 minutes.

I'm not making that my main thing either that the issues are macros. it's just another thing to look at..PEOPLE ABUSING THE PASSIVE. That's what I'm looking at. That's what it's boiling down too. And it can't be looked at the same as Abilities with costs and specters with costs and crafting time gates. Because again it's a passive it's FREE nothing to lose. Why gain anything?

 

I think some thing should be put in place where it shouldn't be abused and so you can gain affinity like normal.

 

Put him on a timer go back in come back out. give him a counter maybe? then allow him to get affinity on kills. Simple as that. 

He already has a counter, his life points and your own lifepoints,  excal isn't invincible you know. And you cant stay in void mode forever either.

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1 minute ago, birdobash said:

He already has a counter, his life points and your own lifepoints,  excal isn't invincible you know. And you cant stay in void mode forever either.

Nope, dosent take long for him to go down higher level wise. But he does get 3 abilites to use while in the specter state. I have not seen him use his forth yet. And you can give him ANYTHING. Go sit some where high though when nothing can touch ya. Watch him do his magic. Either that just give him a Rubico prime sit in a dead end hallways for 20 minutes.

though I'm also not against what your saying completely because he can go down fairly quickly passed a certain level of enemies... He should give affinity it's just my opinion being some thing put in place so well people don't ruin it for others where it gets removed entirely or it gets nerfed harder than it should.

I run vazarin and just dash through him when he needs a heal and immune buff for a couple seconds. So I get it. I use him from time to time. Just putting my opinion out there.

 

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16 minutes ago, FIDOISHERE said:

Nope, dosent take long for him to go down higher level wise. But he does get 3 abilites to use while in the specter state. I have not seen him use his forth yet. And you can give him ANYTHING. Go sit some where high though when nothing can touch ya. Watch him do his magic. Either that just give him a Rubico prime sit in a dead end hallways for 20 minutes.

though I'm also not against what your saying completely because he can go down fairly quickly passed a certain level of enemies... He should give affinity it's just my opinion being some thing put in place so well people don't ruin it for others where it gets removed entirely or it gets nerfed harder than it should.

I run vazarin and just dash through him when he needs a heal and immune buff for a couple seconds. So I get it. I use him from time to time. Just putting my opinion out there.

 

Well, if you are vazarin dashing him then you're technically not afking?

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2 minutes ago, birdobash said:

Well, if you are vazarin dashing him then you're technically not afking?

Only when level 60-ish enemies are around or a nox shows up. But that's what I'm talking about activity.. I can go sit in a survival with 1 other person have them just be a Loki runner for air and sit and watch umbra shoot for 20 minutes without effort lol and not touch my keyboard and look at another screen.

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14 hours ago, birdobash said:

Equinoxes duality augment gives you affinity, why shouldn't umbra passive? That's right, it should. Only gotta think about it to clock that.

Duality gives you affinity because, as I have said multiple times in this thread, it is just like Effigy: It. Costs. It has limits, it requires energy, a mod slot, it ends after a duration so you can't let it do everything. It has a cost.

Umbra has no cost, no limit, you get it for free every time, while putting yourself into a state where you literally cannot be penalised for doing nothing, because even crouching invisible and invincible is 'doing something' by the game's standards.

You cannot compare something that has a limit and clear-cut costs to something that does not. Umbra doesn't even require you to level up the warframe first to get the full effects, while Duality and Effigy need to get to rank 3 before they have their full potential. Umbra has no costs apart from one; the Affinity.

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The affinity of the entire squad. DE is many things, but anti-teamwork isn't one of them. Until you account for this point, your words are meaningless.

Plis, as has been stated, Khora's passive generates Affinity with zero input from the player.

Edited by apostateCourier
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11 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Duality gives you affinity because, as I have said multiple times in this thread, it is just like Effigy: It. Costs. It has limits, it requires energy, a mod slot, it ends after a duration so you can't let it do everything. It has a cost.

Umbra has no cost, no limit, you get it for free every time, while putting yourself into a state where you literally cannot be penalised for doing nothing, because even crouching invisible and invincible is 'doing something' by the game's standards.

You cannot compare something that has a limit and clear-cut costs to something that does not. Umbra doesn't even require you to level up the warframe first to get the full effects, while Duality and Effigy need to get to rank 3 before they have their full potential. Umbra has no costs apart from one; the Affinity.

Neither does Venari, Venari is Khoras passive, but she still gets affinity in full.

And then I could argue that Venari can self resurrect herself as well, so I dont see the inconsistency of why umbra doesn't share affinity. 

Edited by birdobash
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13 hours ago, birdobash said:

Neither does Venari, Venari is Khoras passive, but she still gets affinity in full.

And then I could argue that Venari can self resurrect herself as well, so I dont see the inconsistency of why umbra doesn't share affinity. 

Venari is an entire ability, one you even mod separately and, even if not actively controlled by you pressing buttons it can be. It is something that we get in place of an active ability. Again, cost.

What is so hard to understand that Umbra doesn't work the way abilities do and so has a drawback of its own because it has no other cost?

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34 minutes ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Venari is an entire ability, one you even mod separately and, even if not actively controlled by you pressing buttons it can be. It is something that we get in place of an active ability. Again, cost.

What is so hard to understand that Umbra doesn't work the way abilities do and so has a drawback of its own because it has no other cost?

What? No, venari is a straight up Khoras passive, and you can make the same argument that you also mod for umbra specter BECAUSE he has mod slots, and actually, you need to mod for him twice because you need to mod the weapon he's using too, so that's just blatantly false.

Your logic is tantamount to 2 CEO's who hire 1 person to manage their finances, they do exactly the same job for each person, but 1 of the CEO's doesn't pay him.

Edited by birdobash
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31 minutes ago, birdobash said:

What? No, venari is a straight up Khoras passive

Then what is her 3rd ability? Oh right; you tell the cat what to do, and can shorted her respawn time. That's Khora's 3rd ability. The entire ability is using Venari.

She doesn't have something else to do with that ability. Nothing else happens when you press 3. Nothing that could be quantified actually comes from that other than things Venari does.

Venari is her passive, true. But at the cost of her 3rd ability.

33 minutes ago, birdobash said:

and you can make the same argument that you also mod for umbra specter

What an amazing thing, you can have a different build on a Warframe. This holds precisely no water because you play as Umbra. And when you play as Umbra you can use the Weapons too. You mod him anyway, you mod your weapons anyway and, what do you know? When you play him as a Warframe and use the weapons yourself, actively playing the game, everyone gets Affinity. When you don't play him as a warframe, when you use a passive function to turn him into an automatic system at no cost to you whatsoever and capable of doing all of the things that you could with, admittedly, less effectiveness, what happens? The auto-pilot doesn't earn you Affinity.

Everything in Warframe has a cost. And Umbra's is the Affinity. Until you can find a justifiable reason other than 'I want to implement a system that completely encourages AFK Affinity farming', this whole thing is moot anyway.

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So I hate to argue against this. But venari dosent count as an argument for Umbra excal to give affinity.

It's a passive yes. It gives affinity yes. But venari is more likely to die then umbra. And there's also skills that revolve around her. And she is also classed as a pet.

Umbral excal gets access to its abilites. venari dosent activate 3 of your abilites just standing around.

 Venari can't hold a primary, secondary AND melee weapon either for those 360 no scopes.

Umbra will kill more than venari will.

Again. Put him on a timer when he dies, and have a recast timer of sorts so people have to stay active with him. That's all. Easy peasy then make affinity gain a thing for him.

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