What would be a challenge? Or improved difficulty?

[mikakor]

What would be in-game something considered "end-game" in term of difficulty? Because at the end of the day, the only kind of "hard" content is the endurance run, that still isn't worth it ( 10 minute by rotation? I'm already bored at 5 if I don't have anything ) or a really specific meta ( Eidolons ). 

 ... Can Warframe EVEN have a proper end game or are we doomed to crush everything on our path except with artificial difficulty? 

[ShortCat]

Challenge can be achieved if:

• we are not swiming in energy, so that abilities become a powerfull tactical tool to change the course of the battle, not a spammy particle feast
• enemies come in a greater variaty (Fortuna was the right step)
• overall delta in our power growth as well as enemy scaling is reduced - reduce number bloat.
• maybe some external factors, like environmental effects, which require special attention or moding
• Operator is not a free god mode anymore

Edited November 26, 2018 by ShortCat

[Lazarow]

want something hard? Go with unmodded frame and weps on eso solo

Edited November 26, 2018 by AwkwardLazarow

[DreisterDino]

What seems really challenging to many people is the use of the forum search.

Its not like we have like 10 recent Threads talking about this exact topic right now.

[Voltage]

10 minutes ago, AwkwardLazarow said:

want something hard? Go with unmodded frame and weps on eso solo

Handicapping yourself is artificial challenge, and if you are rewarded the same for using modded weapons and unmodded weapons, why gimp yourself.

[Erytroxylin]

No. In a game like Warframe with such varied frames, making a challenge for some frames would make it too hard or too easy for others. They want every frame to be able to do the content, so by design the strongest frames are simply never going to be challenged. 

Unless there is a design philosophy shift, which I'm not sure is warranted, the game is not going to have a "challenge" for min-maxers. 

What they could do, and this is very labor intensive to design and implement, is add a player content creator like Neverwinter/STO/Mario Maker and several others have. Then if people want to make stuff too hard for certain frames to beat, that's on them.

[Erytroxylin]

10 minutes ago, Voltage said:

Handicapping yourself is artificial challenge, and if you are rewarded the same for using modded weapons and unmodded weapons, why gimp yourself.

Because you want the challenge. People do videos of beating stuff while gimping themselves all the time.

[mikakor]

1 minute ago, Erytroxylin said:

No. In a game like Warframe with such varied frames, making a challenge for some frames would make it too hard or too easy for others. They want every frame to be able to do the content, so by design the strongest frames are simply never going to be challenged. 

Unless there is a design philosophy shift, which I'm not sure is warranted, the game is not going to have a "challenge" for min-maxers. 

What they could do, and this is very labor intensive to design and implement, is add a player content creator like Neverwinter/STO/Mario Maker and several others have. Then if people want to make stuff too hard for certain frames to beat, that's on them.

A content creator would be such an amazing addition to the game, honestly. That would clearly on top of that help the devs getting new idea m, inspired from the player creation. 

 

[Medeucea]

It can if they introduced bosses/boss rooms with mechanics that required certain warframe abilities to complete them.

 

[mikakor]

1 minute ago, Erytroxylin said:

Because you want the challenge. People do videos of beating stuff while gimping themselves all the time.

And that's still stupid. The challenge should be offered by the game, not the player forcing themselves a few levels down to hope having a feel of difficulty. 

[vvhorus]

17 minutes ago, Voltage said:

Handicapping yourself is artificial challenge, and if you are rewarded the same for using modded weapons and unmodded weapons, why gimp yourself.

And what do you think adding a mission with level 200+ enemies to start will do? Same effect, same result...

Modding is artificial enhancement to base skills and damage...

Edited November 26, 2018 by vvhorus

[Erytroxylin]

3 minutes ago, mikakor said:

And that's still stupid. The challenge should be offered by the game, not the player forcing themselves a few levels down to hope having a feel of difficulty. 

To you maybe, but those videos have an audience, so I'd hesitate to call them stupid. They might not be my thing, but that doesnt make them stupid. 

[RX-3DR]

As the fool would answer, "The enemies need to be better and harder".

From a design perspective, the only way to actually achieve proper difficulty at the current stage of the game is to impose restrictions and force interaction from the player. Yes, this generally means nerfing or negating player capability. There is simply no other way around it but people will claim that everything they dislike is ARTIFICIAL DIFFICULTY and give the fool's answer.

If you actually have a solution to it that doesn't infringe on the player at all, we're all ears.

[Viges]

People that want challenge easily find it: there are a lot of things you can do - just don't use mods or powerful weapons/frames etc.

Challenge is a big lie. What people want is fun and feeling of progression (what they call "challenge").

The real problem is boring missions, especially defend or capture types. And bad boss fights.

 

And Fortuna shows that DE is out of touch about all that sadly.

[mikakor]

10 minutes ago, Flandyrll said:

As the fool would answer, "The enemies need to be better and harder".

From a design perspective, the only way to actually achieve proper difficulty at the current stage of the game is to impose restrictions and force interaction from the player. Yes, this generally means nerfing or negating player capability. There is simply no other way around it but people will claim that everything they dislike is ARTIFICIAL DIFFICULTY and give the fool's answer.

If you actually have a solution to it that doesn't infringe on the player at all, we're all ears.

I must admit, I would be sad, because everyone or so would be nerfed to the ground, an entire revamp of the mid system... Lots of stuff. 

[Misgenesis]

Removal of free energy sources and corrupted frame mods

[mikakor]

33 minutes ago, Misgenesis said:

Removal of free energy sources and corrupted frame mods

And with this, goodbye speedva. lol. 

And free energy sources? Technically no energy source is free. Energy orb get earned by killing enemies, Energy from zenurik get earned by investing in this horrible focus tree, energy by aura get earned by getting said aura, that's the reward. 

[RX-3DR]

38 minutes ago, Misgenesis said:

Removal of free energy sources and corrupted frame mods

My take on the Corrupted mod situation is that we just implement the same limitation we have on Bullet Jump mods, you can't have Blind Rage and Intensify, Overextend and Stretch, etc on at the same time. Same with the Augur mods, fix the set bonus into something more valuable and you've created a lighter version with a bonus. Drift mods are fine because their bonuses are often very minor. Only odd one out would be Constitution. It would also bring in a lot more value in things like Growing Power and Energy Conversion. Removing it is simply just not a possible solution at this point.

3 minutes ago, mikakor said:

And free energy sources? Technically no energy source is free. Energy orb get earned by killing enemies, Energy from zenurik get earned by investing in this horrible focus tree, energy by aura get earned by getting said aura, that's the reward. 

Just because you invested time into grinding Focus doesn't cancel out the problem it creates. Part of the whole reason why player ability has spiraled out of control into the huge mess of permanent lockdowns is because by stacking range and efficiency, your 4th ability becomes a full map lockdown with a 8 second cooldown. You may not like Sharpshooter but it brings back player interaction when recovering energy.

[Betsill]

DE needs to actually  try to  balance  things. Dmg in  this game  has had virtually  no thought put in  it.   DE 's  balance is nothing more  than "More and more  dmg then hit  the nail  that sticks  up  highest". They  don't think about  how much dmg should players should be doing or how much is too much. They just pile mods on top of mods to give us something new. Since we don't care if it's not better they give us stronger and stronger stuff. Obviously we are  gonna end  up where we are now  where one shotting  bosses  is the  norm.  The games dmg design and world  design  simply don't  work  together. Warframe  has  MMO style scaling(except MMO'S fine tune the dmg to work for your lvl), but they have a dark souls/destiny/monster hunter style world where you use the whole world to farm and grind. There is a reason that NO mmo's send you back to the first area to farm a certain material. Because you are a god there  and  they keep  you  from going  back there by making the rewards completely  worthless to  you. The dmg increase is an easy way for them(MMOs) to make you really feel like your progressing, as well as lock you out of content so you can't just rush to the end. Warframe takes the scaling model  of   MMO's but completely ignores what it's used for. You can do pretty much anything in the game with a fresh account(with a taxi), and you still need resources from tutorial enemies even after "beating the game" or  whatever you wanna call  it. Warframe  needs dmg  scaling  like monster  hunter   or  dark  souls. Otherwise this games "difficulty"   will forever be a joke.

[Shadowh4nd]

I'm always overcome with the idea that the gameplay itself isn't difficult, but the difficulty is in the theory, crafting, and theorycrafting. It's more of a modding and appearance puzzle than a shooter.

[Lazarow]

Okay then...a challenge that is interesting can go something like this:

-Use the frame you least used so far and try it out make builds till you know it better

-Getting good rivens for different weapons type(example: one of each melee:sword, dual sword, staff,ect.) and be good with those weapons(but its really if you are bored like i am)

-Using kubrows and making them good(As they are not the best companions it makes it a bit hard for you)

[(XBOX)YoungGunn82]

On 2018-11-26 at 8:24 AM, ShortCat said:

Challenge can be achieved if:

• we are not swiming in energy, so that abilities become a powerfull tactical tool to change the course of the battle, not a spammy particle feast
• enemies come in a greater variaty (Fortuna was the right step)
• overall delta in our power growth as well as enemy scaling is reduced - reduce number bloat.
• maybe some external factors, like environmental effects, which require special attention or moding
• Operator is not a free god mode anymore

This^ 

I would also like to see new game modes using multiple game modes. For Example: 

add all of this and I think we can start to see "end game content"

 

[DerGreif2]

Remove energy generation from a lot of warframe. Garuda is fine because her abilities dont nuke the room but some others... Fix some arcanes that give HP and Energy and let them do something else. Remove Zenurik energy generation.

 

That would be a good start. We are to powerfully right now. Maybe that a healer like trin is needed for some missions. In the moment we can to much on our own.

 

You know that there is a problem when you have to nerfing yourself to feel difficulty.

Edited November 28, 2018 by DerGreif2

[180Degree]

Read my last post

[Chaemyerelis]

XThis game doesn't have the combat mechanics to be challenging. Aiming is quick and easy, melee is spammy and AI just charges you blindly. Couple that with a loot system that requires farming and abilities that trivialize damage there's just no hope for challenging content unless you consider hyper inflated enemy levels challenging there isnt much they can do without combat overhauls.