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Nyx Rework Potential from a 900h Nyx Player


Xzorn
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First, wanted to start off by saying. Nyx is fine? There are some quirks with her 2nd augment but otherwise she's an underplayed but very potent CC frame. She has always challenged Loki for the #1 slot. Loki, Oberon and Nyx are currently the only CC frames in the game who can hold a group safe against Nullifiers without the use of other methods like Rad on your weapons. This isn't to say I'd argue against a buff, esp to her 2nd ability though contrary to popular opinion her 2nd isn't useless

Okay, so lets go over what we've been told so far.

 

Nyx Changes
• NEW PASSIVE: Misfire -- enemies can't seem to truly target Nyx and all receive an accuracy debuff against her.
• MIND CONTROL: Target will absorb any damage done to it 4 seconds after cast. The amount of damage absorbed then increases the output damage of the target.
• PSYCHIC BOLTS: This ability is completely being redone. All enemies hit lose defenses (armor/shields) for a short duration. Infested units will be slowed, in addition to the deactivation of any infested auras.
• ABSORB: The math and potentially damage type is being changed. No other details outside of that!

 

  • New Passive:

When you have a Chaos in effect. You want enemies to hit each other. You do not want more crossfire as that is more potential damage to Nyx, her allies and Objectives. Since Chaos has a threat mechanic involved an experienced Nyx player can finish missions without being shot in the first place. Now if this effect ONLY applies to Nyx and has a very high value then it could produce some value to herself but not her team or objectives. In my experiments with reduced accuracy I saw little to no change in enemy targeting within -50% reduction and some enemies aren't affected at all. Currently a well geared Nyx can Chaos then spam Psychic Bolts constantly and keep roughly 50% of all enemies Disarmed so given this scenario the proposed passive is worse for teammates and possibly worse for Nyx herself. Especially considering the more dangerous damage to Nyx are AoE effects ( like Grenade tossing ) which get disabled for many units when Disarmed.

This brings about an AI tweak that might be needed. Currently enemies affected by Chaos who then receive a Rad proc will lose the increased Threat behavior of Chaos. Threat in most cases simply being distance based from yourself and another target. Rad status resets their targeting making them more dangerous if it wasn't for her disarm passive and 2nd augment.

  • Mind Control:

Seems fine. Wouldn't work well without her new 2nd ability of course but I see the incentive for Power Strength coming with this one. I would suggest to make it possible for Nyx to hold control over an enemy instead of dropping and reapplying. This would be simple as pressing the key while targeted will re-apply and without targeted will drop. An Aim / not Aim system similar to how Garuda's 2nd ability functions would work as well. I just see Mind Controlled targets dying from AoE / other players and the incentive to play a more pet oriented Nyx diminished as a result. Giving her the ability to summon her controlled enemy by holding down the button would also help in conjunction with re-applying control.

  • Psychic Bolts:

Here comes the big one. First off, I hope the Rad status stays. It is useful against Nullifiers as they cannot remove it and it "was" useful for keeping one Chaos rotation. As new enemies spawn; keeping them under control often ends up with Nyx keeping multiple timers for Chaos casts. In the past her Chaos Augment removed this effect but now neither seem needed which I'll get to at the end. As for this ability on it's own I hope the Armor reduction is Base value and not total value. Again an incentive to use Power Strength is seen here but I hope it is low given the number of Bolts ( 6 ) cannot be changed or controlled well. Deactivating Auras is interesting. Currently enemies do not gain value from Auras due to Chaos and Rad status from Bolts but completely removing them is both good and bad. Removing an Arson Eximus AoE removes it's additional CC against enemies. Removing a Disruptor's aura however makes Nyx abilities stick better. So a little bad but mostly good?

  • Absorb:

Was this mentioned live or did this get slipped in? Well, I certainty don't want to see nuke Nyx again. What was that, 2014? All I saw were Nyx players hovering around the map. It was triggering and awful. I would urge care when considering the energy drain to damage absorption rate. Currently I do not Terminator Nyx. It doesn't work well past Sorties. I use Assimilate when I don't think I have control of the situation like a Nullifier spawning in a Fissure. Although the ability can accumulate upwards of 318k eHP, energy is the life force of Nyx so changing the ratio of incoming Damage is very dangerous to the scaling potential of her Absorb ability. Now, increasing the Drain for the longer it's active is another story.

 

  • Undocumented Chaos Changes:

Chaos previously did not affect enemies who were already under the effect of Chaos however in the past few months this has changed. Currently Chaos is removed during it's casting animation then re-applied at full duration. This gives a second of Vulnerability to Nyx but it can also be reduced with Natural Talent. This is a good change in my opinion. It makes Nyx more approachable and easier to play without doing a rotation timer mini game in your head. Unfortunately it killed one of my builds for Nyx using 13% Duration as a stun lock build and it also remove the small amount of value her Chaos Sphere augment still had. So keep this but change Chaos Sphere and if I'm being totally real here. Remove the stun animation from enemies who have already been affected by Chaos. I've been cheesing Interception missions since before poor Mirage Prism got nerfed for it.

  • Pacifying Bolts Quirks:

This is a really good augment. I use it often. Unfortunately I use elemental only weapons when I do because the stun animation is interrupted and removed entirely by other animation effects such as Impact status and Blast status. This animation needs to have priority over the others or be re-applied after other animations have finished.

  • Chaos Sphere 2.0

Many players claimed this mod was useless the moment we could re-cast Chaos but it still retained some niche value by removing the aforementioned Chaos timer mini game while also removing the moment of vulnerability for re-applying Chaos. Sadly Natural Talent does a similar job of this now. So it's time for a new Chaos Sphere augment. If you intend to keep her passive and it's enough -% Accuracy to actually matter than this could be an AoE variant for her teammates. It could also cause guns to jam or randomly cause enemies to wander confused without a target. There's a lot of possibilities when involving the word "Chaos" and Nyx's theme but it's current form is very much finally useless.

 

A semi out of date Nyx guide I wrote in 2016 which can be useful for some ability use details:  https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:Zxorn/Maximum_Nyx_U18.7

 

 

Edited by Xzorn
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26 minutes ago, XenMaster said:

Mind Control AI is the same as the enemy. They need to change it so they wont try to take cover and instead, be a good meatshield and do some decent dmg.

 

That kinda plays into why it would be good if Nyx can elect to keep her Mind Control active by refreshing it and the target not dying.

The player's choice in Mind Controlled enemy types plays a big role in what Nyx wants to support her. The enemy types which hide are very low on the list of ideal targets. The better ones are enemies who's AI doesn't hide like Arson Napalm Eximus, Arctic Corpus Techs, any Bursa or my personal favorite Venomous Ancient Healers.

If Nyx can afford to be picky about her "pet" choice then AI work could be avoided since that might involve a lot more though It would be good if her Mind Control targets would leash to her when she moves too far away. If they want to put emphasis on Mind Control being more than Utility and/or distraction the target needs to be in the same room.

Maybe hold 1 to summon your Mind Controlled target.

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1 hour ago, Xzorn said:

 

That kinda plays into why it would be good if Nyx can elect to keep her Mind Control active by refreshing it and the target not dying.

The player's choice in Mind Controlled enemy types plays a big role in what Nyx wants to support her. The enemy types which hide are very low on the list of ideal targets. The better ones are enemies who's AI doesn't hide like Arson Napalm Eximus, Arctic Corpus Techs, any Bursa or my personal favorite Venomous Ancient Healers.

If Nyx can afford to be picky about her "pet" choice then AI work could be avoided since that might involve a lot more though It would be good if her Mind Control targets would leash to her when she moves too far away. If they want to put emphasis on Mind Control being more than Utility and/or distraction the target needs to be in the same room.

Maybe hold 1 to summon your Mind Controlled target.

I also like her mind control target to have minor ability that can proc AOE blast or radiation like those syndicate weapons or Chroma's Effigy crowd control abilities.

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On 2018-11-26 at 10:57 PM, Xzorn said:

Remove the stun animation from enemies who have already been affected by Chaos. I've been cheesing Interception missions since before poor Mirage Prism got nerfed for it.

Well, max range Quake Banshee can stunlock anything within a huge range most of the times covering all 4 points in interception, I don't see why Nyx should fall behind. Wouldn't be fair. She even has much less range than Banshee. At least this way there's diversity. Not saying this is how things should be.

Otherwise 

On 2018-11-26 at 10:57 PM, Xzorn said:

So it's time for a new Chaos Sphere augment

I'd definitely like to see the current mechanic of leaving a bubble behind to be made viable. The range has to be fixed, not shrinking, with some kind of tradeoff mechanic other than shrinking to keep the balance, of course. While you can always just quickly recast Chaos it can become tedious when new targets spawn inside your range and not coming into it, like airborne troops or fissure units. Often times you cast Chaos, the next second you get a landing party and two seconds later you get another one and then shortly after - one more. Nyx needs to keep herself busy with casting Chaos naturally for a more involved gameplay but sometimes it's just too much and you want some QoL. Could make the bubble not apply Chaos but a significant accuracy debuff if that would make a difference at all, like you suggested, what matters is that the new targets get automatically CCed or debuffed. 

Edited by DarthKadra
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On 2018-11-26 at 7:57 PM, Xzorn said:

Since Chaos has a threat mechanic involved an experienced Nyx player can finish missions without being shot in the first place.

It's funny that you should mention this, but not actually take the next step and attempt to apply a change to Chaos that would play into it.

If Chaos didn't just up the Threat of enemies, but reverted Nyx's own aggro level to minimum, then even when losing the effect by radiation proc, enemies would still be more likely to shoot each other than Nyx unless she was literally in their face or directly attacking them.

It would also cover her in the second of re-casting, because enemies would not immediately aggro to her and start shooting.

On 2018-11-26 at 7:57 PM, Xzorn said:

I just see Mind Controlled targets dying from AoE / other players and the incentive to play a more pet oriented Nyx diminished as a result.

Sadly, I can see a much more deliberate problem that DE are implementing; the charge up mechanic takes damage to use, right? When Mind Control ends, the target takes all of the damage that they have received in one hit.

DE are literally building in the instant death of our target into the ability by encouraging us to charge it up.

While your idea to be able to hang on to an enemy sounds good, it appears to me that DE want the opposite.

On 2018-11-26 at 7:57 PM, Xzorn said:

Again an incentive to use Power Strength is seen here but I hope it is low given the number of Bolts ( 6 ) cannot be changed or controlled well.

I'm fairly sure that it will be flat, base, and... not affected by mods. The damage that Bolts deals and the number of bolts will be variable, as will the range, and likely the possibility of the status proc on damage, but the actual debuff... DE aren't going to let that be possible to make 100% without a second cast on the enemy.

On 2018-11-26 at 7:57 PM, Xzorn said:

Although the ability can accumulate upwards of 318k eHP, energy is the life force of Nyx so changing the ratio of incoming Damage is very dangerous to the scaling potential of her Absorb ability.

I'm fairly certain that the same amount of damage fed in will result in the same amount of energy taken as usual, but the change being made means that the damage out will be on a better multiplier, and will no longer be mono-elemental. The option to feed the different damage types in with allied fire and enemy fire is likely to play in to more combo boosting than Nyx solo nuking.

For example, Garuda's 4? Hit everything and then Absorb smacks them with a high amount of damage to generate those bleeds (and yes, I know that Garuda's 4th allows the damage from all types, but the damage type having a bonus against the target, like puncture or corrosive with armour, means that the bleed generated can be higher).

And a few others we can all name, like Rhino.

But just remember, if you're ever thinking that an ability that costs energy for its end result, like Absorb, is getting too powerful, just remember that we have an ability that is a frame's 1 cast, that not only draws aggro, but also instantly multiplies and feeds back their own damage at every level of play and is capable of killing to literally insane levels as long as you don't get in the way. The ability is also buffed by that warframe's 4th ability to have better range and more damage. That frame is Octavia, and Absorb will never reach that kind of power no matter how we buff it.

So feel free to let DE go nuts with it XD

Edited by Thaylien
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3 hours ago, DarthKadra said:

Well, max range Quake Banshee can stunlock anything within a huge range most of the times covering all 4 points in interception, I don't see why Nyx should fall behind. Wouldn't be fair. She even has much less range than Banshee. At least this way there's diversity. Not saying this is how things should be.

 

It's true. I guess I feel bad for Mirage as I used to play her with multiple builds but now only damage is viable. They tried to fix her CC but Prism is still just waaaaay too slow for such a squishy frame. Even with Natural Talent. So all my hybrid builds died. Ideally no frame should be locking a map like that though.

3 hours ago, DarthKadra said:

I'd definitely like to see the current mechanic of leaving a bubble behind to be made viable. The range has to be fixed, not shrinking, with some kind of tradeoff mechanic other than shrinking to keep the balance, of course. While you can always just quickly recast Chaos it can become tedious when new targets spawn inside your range and not coming into it, like airborne troops or fissure units. Often times you cast Chaos, the next second you get a landing party and two seconds later you get another one and then shortly after - one more. Nyx needs to keep herself busy with casting Chaos naturally for a more involved gameplay but sometimes it's just too much and you want some QoL. Could make the bubble not apply Chaos but a significant accuracy debuff if that would make a difference at all, like you suggested, what matters is that the new targets get automatically CCed or debuffed. 

 

The decreasing radius made Duration more viable for her but not much and you needed to run an Energize set to keep up with all the other ability use. Natural Talent does take up most of Chaos Sphere's value though you do make a point in just the act of having to re-cast Chaos often which again doesn't play into Duration very well. With more emphasis being put on her Mind Control it would be unfortunate if that remained the only ability Duration was really needed.

The augment certainly needs more to justify a mod slot now. Least for me.

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1 hour ago, Thaylien said:

It's funny that you should mention this, but not actually take the next step and attempt to apply a change to Chaos that would play into it.

If Chaos didn't just up the Threat of enemies, but reverted Nyx's own aggro level to minimum, then even when losing the effect by radiation proc, enemies would still be more likely to shoot each other than Nyx unless she was literally in their face or directly attacking them.

It would also cover her in the second of re-casting, because enemies would not immediately aggro to her and start shooting.

 

Yea, this would be more of a buff or possibly a better passive than the one being presented right now. I was fine settling for a fix.

1 hour ago, Thaylien said:

Sadly, I can see a much more deliberate problem that DE are implementing; the charge up mechanic takes damage to use, right? When Mind Control ends, the target takes all of the damage that they have received in one hit.

DE are literally building in the instant death of our target into the ability by encouraging us to charge it up.

While your idea to be able to hang on to an enemy sounds good, it appears to me that DE want the opposite.

 

Their concept is odd, esp when armor comes into play. You have to debuff the enemy first using her 2 in order to Mind Control them and then pump damage.

Adding two extra steps to an ability that up till now has been very reactionary. A player's inability to hold onto a pet feels like this is still best used to mute key enemies rather than create some Mind Controlled monstrous creature since you would have to repeat a 3 part process every minute or less. That's if your Bolts land the right target.

1 hour ago, Thaylien said:

I'm fairly sure that it will be flat, base, and... not affected by mods. The damage that Bolts deals and the number of bolts will be variable, as will the range, and likely the possibility of the status proc on damage, but the actual debuff... DE aren't going to let that be possible to make 100% without a second cast on the enemy.

 

I hope not. They said 80% which would work perfectly requiring 125% Power Strength to fully strip armor per Bolt. Being unable to strip anything short of 100% armor doesn't scale well and wouldn't incentivize me to use power Strength on her. Ash is stripping 100% at 2 per cast on a cheaper ability. Trinity can constantly keep 3 enemies 100% striped. Banshee can strip everything in a large cone with a cheaper ability and Hydroid can melt armor off enemies with his augmented 1st ability. Doesn't seem unreasonable by comparison.

1 hour ago, Thaylien said:

I'm fairly certain that the same amount of damage fed in will result in the same amount of energy taken as usual, but the change being made means that the damage out will be on a better multiplier, and will no longer be mono-elemental. The option to feed the different damage types in with allied fire and enemy fire is likely to play in to more combo boosting than Nyx solo nuking.

 

I'm mostly concerned with the utility nature of Absorb rather than the damage type or amount it does. I smelt a nerf and wanted to get out in front and mention that one method is very different than another when it comes to scaling damage intake. Just in case that nerf is a possibility since this post went out before we got more details.

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So, fair response to most, but I think some clarification might be needed on this one:

22 minutes ago, Xzorn said:

I hope not. They said 80% which would work perfectly requiring 125% Power Strength to fully strip armor per Bolt. Being unable to strip anything short of 100% armor doesn't scale well and wouldn't incentivize me to use power Strength on her. Ash is stripping 100% at 2 per cast on a cheaper ability. Trinity can constantly keep 3 enemies 100% striped. Banshee can strip everything in a large cone with a cheaper ability and Hydroid can melt armor off enemies with his augmented 1st ability. Doesn't seem unreasonable by comparison.

In all of your examples, these are augmented abilities. There are pretty much only two frames that have the ability to fully strip armour off enemies without augments and both of them require a lot of power strength and come with some not-insignificant caveats.

Oberon can, but requires more power strength than is sensible, or an Energy Conversion/Growing Power build, and for enemies to be on his 2. Frost can strip 100% armour with high power strength, but enemies are Frozen for the duration of that strip meaning they are immune to Status which would add DPS to spongy enemies.

On top of that, when you actually work with it, Armour only really becomes a problem once you reach levels past 100-120. We have a weapon testing facility that now goes up to level 160, and we have weapons that can kill those enemies in seconds, let alone Warframe buffs/debuffs/combinations and so on.

All other armour removing abilities that can totally remove armour are Augments, for Ash, Banshee, Hydroid and Trinity.

There aren't any cheap abilities that you don't have to specifically sacrifice a mod slot for that removes all armour, and even those you have to mod for Strength on there to do so. A frame that could remove 100% armour at 125% strength would be kind of ridiculous.

80% armour reduction would turn a Heavy unit into a Butcher or Lancer unit by comparison, even at level 100 that can be half a million to a million effective HP in a single cast.

I honestly used to worry about armour on enemies a few years ago, I was one of those on the long-run Void Key missions that would sell people the latest Prime Parts from T4 Survivals and Defenses where it was a 4-stack Corrosive Projection as mandatory in order to get the results.

Nowadays, with the strength of Status weapons and the damage achievable with a far wider range of primaries and secondaries after the rebalances, armour just doesn't really matter until you hit higher-than-sortie level.

So no, I genuinely think that the 80% flat reduction on the new Psychic Bolts will be completely fine. Besides, they may buff it in another way (because I've been raising a bit of hype for the idea) by letting the Bolts actually find separate targets if they're available... in which case, 80% armour off six units at a time? Now that's not a bad deal for a 2 cast.

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played with countless of hours of loki and nyx, similar game play but totally different; they bring awesome strength to the team.

I love her 2nd ability the rad proc is indispensable for me, cheap cc. I hope they just add the debuff and not strip the rad proc.

mind controlled units are stuck on limbos rift.. making them useless. pls fix this De.

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20 hours ago, Thaylien said:

-snip-

 

We're not really talking about one mod to hit 125% Power Strength though. Building Power Strength is contrary to majority of Nyx builds.

Going from 40% to 125% is more costly than an augment slot for Nyx. If it were stuck at 80% then it would serve small purpose over her current Bolts because as you mentioned Weapons do a fine job of stripping armor and simply negating shields. It's biggest value might end up the ability to shut down Ancient Disruptor Auras at that point.

I consider abilities past lvl 300 though. I feel the level range people play is generally why you don't see Nyx much. It's not that she's bad but more our damage output has denied much reason to use a fully devoted CC frame until very high in levels or just for Solo fun. We'll just have to see I guess. Long as they keep the Rad proc and fix her 2nd augment it's just bonus which I wouldn't be mad about. There's quite a few quirks and bugs I'd like to see finally fixed most of all.

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I own a nyx, got it to rank 30, never played it again.  When I see nyx in party  and limbo (at same time) in Arbitration, I generally just leave squad.  Yes sounds like a $&*^ move, but in nyx current state they can provide little assistance in comparison to the newer frames that both CC and kill while having better survival.  (I usualy do arbitration alerts with Oberon with phoenix renewal as players drop like flys and I hate being solo on oberon) .  And most limbos I see just sit afk the entire match and do not contribute.

 

If DE Staff is reading this PLS get Nyx a good overhaul.  Prior to frames spinning out of control on how powerful they are now verses when the game first came out of closed testing, Nyx was a great warframe.  Now, she is lvling fodder.  For those of you keeping her alive gj, and best of luck.  Maybe as the nyx new passive might be to kill AFK limbos.

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make sure you paste those into the NYX workshop

if you want my ideas for Nyx; i she should have parabolic chains, and use a series of mudras with a new system of weaponized metallic sphere that can be used to project and store energy and TP/and launch bolts at, this is posible through a capacitor and quartz diagram which allows the player to use her chakra for other things instead of launching direct attacks to the enemy which leave her vulnerable often, the player can throw the ball(s) from a safe distance, and shoot bullets or ki projections so that the player is not a direct target, however they can and share hp/mp/energy to be functional or something like that, i dont want any complains you figure it out, but what matters is that the player is no longer in a vulnerable position when they are out of range/vice versa, its better to have the caltrope and other tools just incase the player doesnt have the requirements or is blocked attempst phychee, ok if used to store additional energy pickups like a capacitor to procure explosions, reusable granade can be a sticky and ranged weapon, not just a metallic mudra/eye that enchants you 

Edited by (PS4)santospizarro
shes getting updated soon
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  • 2 weeks later...

Since her passive was not mentioned on the Devstream sneak peak I hope this is being further considered but just in case...

I Made a video to kinda hammer home why her proposed passive is worse than her current.

 

 

Without being able to disarm. These Napalms would still be spreading deadly radial Damage and leaving Fire all over the place.

Make no mistake these particular enemies could care less that you give them reduced accuracy.

Indeed the entire combat area is 100% safe. Now of course this isn't a real scenario but as I mentioned in my post around 50% of enemies are disarmed in a normal endless mission which is far safer for everything and everyone in the map. Her proposed passive fundamentally could not be better at protecting herself and allies.

I would suggest making Mind Controlled targets pick their guns back up. It's not like they physically drop them. It's just a forced combat state.

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