A change for Harrow, to make him less greedy

[ProgrammerSocks]

A well-known problem with Harrow is that in order to give out free energy to his teammates, he has to kill enemies. As a support, this doesn't make a lot of sense. Why pick a support if you're going to do DPS anyway? One change that might alleviate this problem would be to count his teammates kills on enemies stunned by his 1 as kills for him, for the purpose of his 3 giving energy. This way, Harrow could stun a group of enemies to allow his team to clean them up really easily, and give energy from those enemies even though he didn't fight to get that last shot. Plus, linking it to the CC ability reinforces the support playstyle of helping your team fight in all sorts of ways, including buffs, healing/energy, and crowd control.

[GinKenshin]

So basically you'll become a glorified 1 spammer like Trinity with her 2....no thank you. Having it like the way it is now ensures that you'll actually do something and play the game instead of mindlessly spamming abilities, he works just fine now. If your team wants energy, then tell them to take it down a notch so you can support them, team cooperation is key here 

[(PSN)Ozymandias-13-]

Harrow is the perfect support for this type of fast paced space genocide game because he requires active combat participation to help his allies. If your allies are killing everything before you do, then they don't need energy or health. Simple.

@GinKenshin is correct. This change would make him suffer from some of the same problems Trinity does. To me, she's very outdated since she was designed when this game was slow, and she hasn't had a modernization rework yet. She's powerful, but still has spammable, powerful abilities that require little effort. At least Blessing isn't map-ranged invulnerability. Hehe.

[kgabor]

1 hour ago, frenchdavid50 said:

Why pick a support if you're going to do DPS anyway?

Because you're a pro support who can do both at the same time?

[GinKenshin]

3 minutes ago, kgabor said:

Because you're a pro support who can do both at the same time?

The funny thing is that it's not even a traditional 'dps' role, you're just using your weapons like normal and playing the game....when did that become a role and is hard to do while simultaneously using abilities? 

The reasoning is a mess, the suggestion is a mess....this whole thread is a mess  

[(XBOX)Skippy575]

I have a large range for my Thurible since it's kind of tied to the range of his 1 so I don't have problems getting energy from kills.

Also, what you're suggesting kind of exists in his Warding Thurible augment. Teammates take damage, extra energy for Harrow's Thurible.

[(PSN)psycofang]

12 hours ago, frenchdavid50 said:

Why pick a support if you're going to do DPS anyway?

Because this is unfortunately a horde kiling action game and not a sit on your hands like trinity game.

 

To clarify support classes do good dps and are expected to do dps now. Standing in the back netflixing it up wont fly after they rework trinity.

Edited November 28, 2018 by (PS4)psycofang

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

A good Harrow can still provide good energy and healing gains with very minimal kills.

[Buttaface]

Harrow's main problems are it spends too much time casting the abilities and relies on only self-kills on the three. Speed up all abilities by 50% or more first. Allow team kills to count on the three and greatly reduce the amount of energy per kill.

The ult needs to be not conditional on damage taken. Make the crit buff a fixed amount and reduced to 20-30% after the invulnerability phase. Biggest annoyance with Harrow IME is casting the 4 and then watching no damage taken resulting in a crappy crit boost. That's not an ult comparable to so many other ults in the game, just a disappointment. Shouldn't have to do self-damage or rely on other wonky damage generators to fuel the ult, it should just be a moderate, powerful CC boost.

The "synergy" between the 1 and 2 is annoying and clunky also. Would just do away with the shield stripping of the 2, reduce max overshields some, leave 1 as cone cc and 2 as a fixed duration buff. Harrow is surprisingly squishy in higher level and not stripping the overshields from the 1 every time 2 is cast would remedy this some.

These would make it much more fun to play without being OP.

Edited November 27, 2018 by Buttaface

[Gurpgork]

6 hours ago, frenchdavid50 said:

Why pick a support if you're going to do DPS anyway?

The traditional MMO dichotomy of "DPS does all the work and supports do literally nothing but be buff mules for the DPS" is bland, dated, tired, and needs to be reckoned with on an industry-wide level. The fact that Harrow scoffs in the face of those traditional MMO roles is a good thing. 

We're all playing a third person shooter here. Even Warframes with no DPS buffs whatsoever are capable of dealing very high amounts of damage because of the power of weapons. Let supports actively participate in the game. 

[Klokwerkaos]

I hate Harrow, I think his play style is anti synergy... but... I also like that about him.  It's different and caters to a certain type of player.

I appreciate frames that are unique rather than say, trash like Revenant that is utterly forgettable.  When i see a harrow player i get what I'm in for.  When I see a revenant player that isn't leveling to 30 im like "but why?"  

Even though I hate Harrow, I think his design is one of the best with nova and nidus.  These frames are all super unique, fun and can be played in a huge variety of ways.  That's good.

Leave Harrow alone.  He is good and does what he is designed to do well and has areas he excells and sucks in.  Can't ask for much more from a balance perpective.

Get your mitts off him.  

Edited November 28, 2018 by Klokwerkaos

[Ventura_Highway]

On 2018-11-27 at 4:21 PM, Buttaface said:

The ult needs to be not conditional on damage taken.

Let's put it like this: removing the conditional parts of Harrow's abilities would make him not Harrow. Each of his 4 abilities are designed to intentionally be conditional in order to make the most of them.

[Buttaface]

2 hours ago, Ventura_Highway said:

Let's put it like this: removing the conditional parts of Harrow's abilities would make him not Harrow. Each of his 4 abilities are designed to intentionally be conditional in order to make the most of them.

Well, that's like saying that any rework makes any frame "not that frame" any more.

Harrow IMO and apparently many others is needlessly clunky, spends too much time casting compared to other supports like Trinity. If a team is very weak, Harrow's support is not enough, if a team is very strong, Harrow is totally unnecessary. Needs to change IMO to make him more broadly useful. He's far and away my most edgelordy looking frame, so would love to use him more, he's just not that -fun- to play with all the long casts and conditional stuff. Especially in a game with frames like Mesa, Equinox, Saryn, Volt who get much more powerful results without all the cast time and micromanagement.

[Ventura_Highway]

22 hours ago, Buttaface said:

Harrow IMO and apparently many others is needlessly clunky, spends too much time casting compared to other supports like Trinity. If a team is very weak, Harrow's support is not enough, if a team is very strong, Harrow is totally unnecessary. Needs to change IMO to make him more broadly useful. He's far and away my most edgelordy looking frame, so would love to use him more, he's just not that -fun- to play with all the long casts and conditional stuff. Especially in a game with frames like Mesa, Equinox, Saryn, Volt who get much more powerful results without all the cast time and micromanagement.

I'd really rather avoid comparing any frame to Trinity. Unlimited Health, Energy, potentially (Over)Shields and Damage Reduction, how do you top this as a support?

Edited for clarity on what Trinity provides

Edited November 30, 2018 by Ventura_Highway