Is the Haymaker / Splat combo all there is?

[Raso719]

Up front, I am not a min/maxer. I equip my gear based on the rule of cool. That said, I was playing with the Kitgun calculator on a few websites and came to realize that for raw DPS Haymaker / Splat tops the list with every chamber! I feel like I should be able to add enough fire rate and ammo reserves to a gun to bring it's DPS at least closer to the Haymaker / Splat combo. Aside from that It seems you can go with Lovetap to get a less infuriating rate of fire without losing much DPS over all.

I know there's more to weapons than raw DPS but I'm wondering what others thing about some of the other weapon combos out there,

[ShakeyMac]

Imo, build for fun first. Math and calculators are all nice, but they aren't very fun. With 4 forma and pax charge my rattleguts/gibber/Bashrack shreds everything up until level 85 or so. It can shred stuff past that point, it just takes a bit longer.

Is it the highest dps? Don't know and don't care. It's fun as hell and works better than I could have expected when I first made a "max dakka" build.

[Callback]

For crit builds yes.

 

There are status builds.

 

And gaze is more of a comfort thing with how far you want the beam to reach, and whether it's worthwhile to sacrifice some base damage to save a mod slot on added range.

[Peter]

Haymaker has the highest numbers but you lose much comfort, much recoil and slow fire rate (very short range for beams) gives you a bad experience depending on the situation.

Splat has better status chance  and extra magazine but killstream has the best reload speed, and not always critical build is the best option, Flutterfire and Ramflare deserve a look too.

At first I thought the same as you are doing now, but with time of use you realize that maximizing the damage is not always the best choice because in the end they all kill, choose the one that makes you more comfortable and that most suits your gameplay style.

Edited November 28, 2018 by Peter

[Pandoran_Stallion]

It seems the optimal build is actually towards Slapneedle/Lovetap or Killstream/Ramble from my testing so far. 

[Zavenosk]

I settled on haymaker/splat after building and testing it, lovetap/splat, haymaker/killstream and haymaker/zipneedle.  So maybe?

[Raso719]

Lovetap definitely has a more satisfying rate of fire compared to Haymaker and, honestly, you don't lose much DPS or burst damage between the 2.

[BL4CKN0ISE]

The Gibber is amazing and too many people sleep on it. I've built a few Haymaker builds, but the Gibber is much more fun to use IMO. I agree about Splat. I only use that loader, but it combos well with everything else. Kitguns are just strong so it really doesn't matter what you combine it with. I'll probably try out some other loaders at some point, but I think DE just added way too many. Most seem completely redundant.

[Raso719]

18 minutes ago, BL4CKN0ISE said:

The Gibber is amazing and too many people sleep on it. I've built a few Haymaker builds, but the Gibber is much more fun to use IMO. I agree about Splat. I only use that loader, but it combos well with everything else. Kitguns are just strong so it really doesn't matter what you combine it with. I'll probably try out some other loaders at some point, but I think DE just added way too many. Most seem completely redundant.

My understanding of the loaders is based off of this one Kitgun builder I used online. It arranged the loaders along 2 axis, Crit vs Status and Reload Speed vs Magazine Capacity. Each loader seems to fit within that matrix where it's either dipping or double dipping into one side at the cost of sacrificing or double sacrificing the attribute on the other end of the axis. So for example the Splat is ++ Crit and hence it is also -- Status. and along the other axis it is ++ Ammo and thus -- Reload speed. This seems to form the basis of the loader modifiers and easily fits into a matrix.

 

I don't know why they did it that way, I suppose it is simpler than how multiple types of Zaw parts all have multiple attribute modifiers affecting the same attribute across separate parts. With Kit Guns parts don't seem to double dip into the same attributes like Zaws do, so I guess it's more straight forward for people to determine what type of effect a part will have on an assembly. 

[Pandoran_Stallion]

31 minutes ago, BL4CKN0ISE said:

I'll probably try out some other loaders at some point, but I think DE just added way too many. Most seem completely redundant.

On the contrary, all of them feel completely different to me. I've tested tons of them and none of them really feel the same, to be entirely honest. I actually wish they had added reload-neutral loaders. A reload time of 1.5s wouldn't feel terrible but it wouldn't feel snappy like a 1.3s loader, while it doesn't give the truncated mag size feel I get from the 1.3s reloads. 1.7s irks me slightly, and the mag feels a bit too long. Having more options would be nice to me, just because I like that "even" sweet spot.

[Toran]

I find it pretty hard to evaluate Kitguns on spreadsheets alone (they don't take status damage into account).

My first Kitgun was purely built for aesthetics: Gaze-Lovetap-Sparkfire (it actually does not look like something from a scrapyard)

It's a mixed crit/status (base: 21%/32%, modded:60%/90%) midrange beam gun. With 8,500 DPS this thing is on the lower end of the DPS spreadsheets and still, to my surprise, it's able to kill a Level 160 Eximus Bombard with less than a magazine and no Riven Mod installed while other much higher-dps combos on the lists barely scratch the same enemy.

Of course, L160 Exibombs aren't my typical enemy. Sortie and Kuvaflood are usually my top of the daily line. But based on this experience, I will try to find a suitable hybrid build to tackle those enemies efficiently and I'm almost certain that it will not be a Haymaker/Splat.

 

[Pandoran_Stallion]

@Toran Agree with you about hybridizing there. Hybridizing is basically the DPS king in usage, but far from it on paper, because paper calculations don't account for status effects and armor most of the time. Balancing or leaning slight +crit has been the way to go in my testing so far, just because the crit damage values drop off as well. 

[Khromm]

My personal favorite build at the moment is my Tombfinger/Haymaker/Killstream with a rank 4 Seeker. The mag size is still 15 which on a semi-auto is actually quite deep, and there's a noticable difference between reload speeds of Killstream and Splat. If I'm in a situation with more than 15 targets, then Seeker generally helps out (even if I only get one headshot kill in that group, and ususally I'm getting more than one headshot kill), and being able to reliably reload fully between waves is more useful to me than having a deeper magazine that'll take longer to reload and potentially still be finishing when the next wave hits. Plus, I actually use it as a secondary, and rarely use it exclusively unless I'm levelling a primary that I absolutely hate, so 15 shots on a secondary with a 1.3 (or lower with mods - I think it's at 0.6 atm) is more than adequate, especially since my actual fire rate (no macros/rebinds to mouse wheel) is almost as long anyway, so even if I do reload during a wave, it's less of an interruption than a full second or more on a reload.

But, as ever, your own mileage may very well vary, and it's always going to be a personal feel and choice as to what suits you best. Fast reload suits me more than deeper magazine size on a Tombfinger. Magazine size is something I *might* look at on a Gaze or Rattleguts, but even then I'm not yet convinced. For you, it might be the other way around.

[Guest]

For a Catchmoon or Tombfinger, Fast Reload and Crits is the way to go. Ofc the Haymaker is also the most legit, because the recoil will settle before the next shot and firing faster while sacrificing ammo efficiency is quite the fool's errand even with Pax Charge (I use max rank Pax Charge for everything. I don't care about meta, I just want infinite ammo). Big Magazines are therefore worthless to me when these guns are considered.

I did some testing and came up with quite the weird spread of results. My Gaze uses the slightly biased towards crit (32% crit, 21% status) and the Ramble (3 damage less is worth it for 17 meters more range, as one more damage mod can go in over the pistol version of Sinister Reach and you can't roll range on rivens). My Rattleguts does use splat and has a Riven. Surprisingly, my Gaze without a riven outperforms my Rattleguts vs level 155 eximus heavy gunners on headshots, but is significantly disadvantaged on bodyshots.

But a more surprising thing is that I rerolled a + damage + Multishot + Cold Rattleguts to a + Crit Chance + Status Chance + Status duration and the DPS has not changed. In fact, performance vs level 155 Corpus and Grineer improved (probably due to more corro procs and more slash procs that also last longer), although the performance against infested has dipped somewhat.

VS those level 155 eximus heavy gunners, the Rattleguts and Gaze performed a lot better than the Catchmoon and Tombfinger. In fact, out of all the things I tried, Tombfinger is the most lackluster, even against weaker enemies.

If one is building for pure status, on a Rattleguts you would probably pick Ramble as the grip, since you need a high fire rate. The rule is simple - slow firing guns just go full crit, fast guns can pick either, but status is pretty much a fast gun thing, especially the kind like corrosive proc.

 

[Zsword]

I generally find the 15%~ status I get with splats suits my needs plenty if I want to switch gears to a status/element biased build, without sacrificing all my Crit potential. (~50% status before the 180% multishot if you do a rainbow, depending on the chamber.)

I generally play weapons with a 'suppression' mentality, so the Extra Size for the twinge more Reload feels really nice across the board (though wouldn't mind a neutral one.) Though my Side arm is kinda my 'that thing is too big or too different for my primary', I still prefer being able to fire more between reloads and reload actively instead of minimizing down time between shorter bursts.

Haymaker tombfinger and Gaze feel really cozy, Tombfinger loses far too much punch for too little fire rate to go down to lovetap, and it only gets worse down the line. (Tombfinger Gibber fires about twice as fast with a measly 5th of the damage. :x) While GazeMaker still has a solid 20m beam. (cycron has 24, and is about where I want a side arm beam to be. If I'm fighting at a substantial distance I don't want to be using a Pistol Laser.)

Catchmoon and Rattle change it up a bit though. 1-2rps is where I have to draw a line for my side arms though, and Gibbermoon is a lot of fun for just pushing down hallways. (Keep in mind, everyone's wonder child the Lex Prime has 2 rps.) While I lose a lot of raw DPS, there's a lot less 'overkill' waste on the piles of fodder you're pushing through anyway. (Which, waste from overkill is something that DPS calcs don't factor, and is very easy for Catchmoon to do.)

I tried both a Rattlemaker and Rattletap combos and both feel really good, with only the most inconsequential difference in raw DPS. I like some ammo economy and the minor tweak in the kick vs. fire rate for Rattletap is super, freaking, comfy for me. Rattle's natural window of deviation prevents it from enjoying the idea of being a precision side arm, so Taps slight edge to 'spray and pray' gets very nice results.

Rattlegut easily has the best balance for Grip/Loader variance for comfort, and it shows. If going status biase didn't kill your Crit Multiplier I'd say it'd be the one variant I'd go with the elemental Loaders instead of the pointy ones, 

[Xzorn]

I used a couple variations of each kit gun and wasted prolly 50 forma total doing all of it.

I would say the stats themselves are fine. Crit Vs Status, Mag Vs Reload, Distance / Recoil. The problem lies in the nature of the weapons themselves.

• Catchmoon for instance is never going to be a good weapon against Armor. There's just nothing you can do about that and so you build for Crit.
• Tombfinger procs on impact and then on AoE for your primary target so a lot of status isn't exactly needed. It helps and I have a higher status version but you won't need that outside shooting lvl 150+ Armor.
• Gaze is base Puncture / Rad which makes it less appealing as a status weapon but either direction works fine. The problem with Gaze is we already have plenty of elemental status beam weapons so you might as well focus Crit for something different.
• Rattleguts which I prefer more status based with Lovetap since 50% recoil is something I can work with but the bigger reason to use Lovetap as a minimum is the Accuracy stat of the weapon. The faster a weapon fires the more bullet deviation you get and so it's better to deal with recoil which you as the player can control.

Catchmoon is fine. It's a double specialized weapon. Maybe you can do a Gas build with it but that's about it. The terrain collision is awful though. Tombfinger is fine. It's pretty weighted to Crit but Status still has value, esp since you're getting double. Gaze needs a little more status value I think and it would be nice to have control over it's fire rate. Rattleguts could use more base Accuracy but otherwise has a good range of options, it doesn't really lose much DPS by going faster fire rate because the Slash weight increases. It's the head-shot rate that's a problem.

[Raso719]

So with the Rattleguts I ended up using Lovetap and Splat and so far I'm actually not a fan of having such a slow rate of fire on the gun. Going to gild it and tater it today to see what I can do with it...

[fiendishrabbit]

With the Rattleguts I find that the Haymaker fires too slowly to be comfortable to use, even with Lethal Torrent. The lovetap is almost as damaging but a lot more comfortable to use.
Meanwhile, the Ramble and gibber are great guns for statushosing.

[Traumtulpe]

On 2018-11-27 at 8:35 PM, Raso719 said:

for raw DPS Haymaker / Splat tops the list with every chamber!

That is actually incorrect, Killstream has more dps than Splat for Gaze. You make the mistake of not factoring in status procs into dps - so it's a given that any components trading crit for status will appear to have less dps. And if you are not interested in status, the value of attack speed becomes near zero also.

With the exception of Catchmoon (go full crit or full status) Kitguns can also make good use of components with slightly less crit. This allows the use of maximum reload speed or magazine components which I like on the Gaze and Rattleguts respectively.

It is worth noting however, that Tombfinger seems to be broken: With Gibber it has merely 1/3 the dps it would have with Haymaker. That's probably not intentional. If they fix all the bugs and issues all Kitguns except Rattleguts have (and massively buff Pax Charge which you could consider a bug/issue with Rattleguts), I'd say Kitguns are pretty well done.

[Xzorn]

8 hours ago, Traumtulpe said:

That is actually incorrect, Killstream has more dps than Splat for Gaze. You make the mistake of not factoring in status procs into dps - so it's a given that any components trading crit for status will appear to have less dps. And if you are not interested in status, the value of attack speed becomes near zero also.

 

Killstream and Splat have the same status rates.

The difference between the two is actually more complicated though due to the ramping nature of Beam weapons.

I calculated this a while ago but didn't bother to finish. Assuming Gaze ramps from 30-100% over 0.6 seconds and decays after 0.8 seconds over 2 seconds. Killstream will lose 25% of it's ramp value during a reload while Splat will lose 50% of it's ramp however Splat will take 1.25 seconds longer to empty it's mag giving 1.25 more seconds of full ramp.

Attempting to put this into any realistic value didn't seem practical since beam weapon ramp is per target so that was far as I went with it and it would also require knowing if the ramp and decay values are linear which I've not tested since it's such a small time value overall.

[Raso719]

So how would people build something using the other grips? My Rattle/Tap turned out to be utter trash (way too slow of a RoF) so I'm looking into other options....

My Tombfinger/Lovetap/Spat seems to be my favorite build so far. Upon further experimentation my Catchmoon/Haymaker fires a little too slow for my tastes and the hitbox of the projectile makes me cry. So I'm currently on the hunt for new grip/magazine combos to experiment with. 

[ShakeyMac]

I highly recommend rattleguts plus gibber plus bashrack. You build it for crit and two dual stat mods. With Barrel Diffusion and gilding it sits around 50% status with high 80's crit (assuming PPG) and no impact damage to speak of. Just slash, puncture, rad and whatever other status you created with your dual stats. Slap the 120% slash mod on it and you've got a high crit weapon with good crit dmg that procs status like nuts thanks to its stupid high fire rate, at least 1/3 of which will be slash. Combo with viral to attack health and play the bleed dot game, or corrosive for quick armor stripping while stacking crit slash procs.

[(PSN)haphazardlynamed]

On 2018-12-11 at 5:34 PM, ShakeyMac said:

I highly recommend rattleguts plus gibber plus bashrack. You build it for crit and two dual stat mods. With Barrel Diffusion and gilding it sits around 50% status with high 80's crit (assuming PPG) and no impact damage to speak of. Just slash, puncture, rad and whatever other status you created with your dual stats. Slap the 120% slash mod on it and you've got a high crit weapon with good crit dmg that procs status like nuts thanks to its stupid high fire rate, at least 1/3 of which will be slash. Combo with viral to attack health and play the bleed dot game, or corrosive for quick armor stripping while stacking crit slash procs. 

Why strip armor if slash procs bypass armor anyway?

[ShakeyMac]

22 hours ago, (PS4)haphazardlynamed said:

Why strip armor if slash procs bypass armor anyway?

To kill things quicker obviously.

[Sharkgoblin]

I made a rattleguts with haymaker and the loader sparkfire with high status(26%),decent crit chance(15%) and large ammo pool, i made it that way to have no problems ever with ammo economy, because pets have the vacuum mods, so in sorry carrier but i want to use the helminth, and good status helps strip armor fast since rattleguts got low ips with radiation, this means higher probability to proc elementals such as corrosive and gas, and the crit chance its just enough to let me put primed crit mods to make an hybrid build, and haymaker because i like higher base damage over rof and because to go and brrrrrrt i use grakatas and vipers