Business model weak point?

[WarRelic]

It occurred to me the other day that I only have about half a dozen frames I play. They are my favorites. They are generally good at what they do and are sufficient to cover all the game content.

Where this becomes a problem for DE is that after I buy all the premium skins and accessories that I like or go with those frames, I'm much less value to the game as far as monetary backing goes.

I think they should look into how they can do something like character progression but for specific frames so that your favorite frames still add value once the customer has become attached to them. 

More skins are coming I know but what else could be done?     

[Xaero]

Umbra version?

[AdunSaveMe]

I'm not sure what your point is here. Are you saying DE needs to make a way for you to keep spending more money? Because they already do that, by adding new frames and cosmetics and weapons. It's not a weak point in the business model that some people only spend money a couple of times, or just once, or don't spend any at all.

[Me.KayOh]

26 minutes ago, AdunSaveMe said:

I'm not sure what your point is here. Are you saying DE needs to make a way for you to keep spending more money? Because they already do that, by adding new frames and cosmetics and weapons. It's not a weak point in the business model that some people only spend money a couple of times, or just once, or don't spend any at all.

This. I'm also confused.

[(XBOX)Erudite Prime]

Just buy all the skins in the game if you're worried that you're not spending enough money. DE is already doing exactly what you want by constantly adding new frames, weapons, and whatnot to the game.

[Klokwerkaos]

11 hours ago, WarRelic said:

It occurred to me the other day that I only have about half a dozen frames I play. They are my favorites. They are generally good at what they do and are sufficient to cover all the game content.

Where this becomes a problem for DE is that after I buy all the premium skins and accessories that I like or go with those frames, I'm much less value to the game as far as monetary backing goes.

I think they should look into how they can do something like character progression but for specific frames so that your favorite frames still add value once the customer has become attached to them. 

More skins are coming I know but what else could be done?     

Story content is too far apart, skins can help but only so much.  What would help is sustainable content (light levels is one example, competotive rails and raids were another example though they had their problems that are fixable), the concept of railjack and kingpin might fit this niche but likely will continue to cater to new players because de likes to baby them and ignore vets.

This is a long time complaint... De don't ignore your vets... and yeah, they still do and them even when they try to do something specifically for vets they manage to nerf it so newbies don't feel left out (arbitration).  It's a bad habit and they would stand to make more money and have better player retention of they simply learned their lesson but there is no sign that this will ever change (and history shows there 8s every reason to suspect it wont) so get used to it and either live with it like the rest of us or cut your losses and find another game.  It's a bad thing to say and a non answer, but it's de's answer for years, so it's not like it's not a valid answer even though it's a crappy one 

Edited November 28, 2018 by Klokwerkaos

[peterc3]

9 hours ago, Klokwerkaos said:

Story content is too far apart

They could add story content daily and it would be too far apart for the most vocal people.

9 hours ago, Klokwerkaos said:

De don't ignore your vets

They don't. However they don't cater exclusively to them. Not having their complete, undivided attention is not being ignored.

9 hours ago, Klokwerkaos said:

It's a bad habit and they would stand to make more money

Prove it. Prove that they are missing this mythical mountain of money that would result from bending to the whims of the most vocal members of the community.

[MasterBurik]

@Klokwerkaos

Sounds like the ideal solution to your complaint is purchase-to-access content, directly aimed at vets and other players who would like a challenge.

[Klokwerkaos]

7 hours ago, peterc3 said:

They could add story content daily and it would be too far apart for the most vocal people.

They don't. However they don't cater exclusively to them. Not having their complete, undivided attention is not being ignored.

Prove it. Prove that they are missing this mythical mountain of money that would result from bending to the whims of the most vocal members of the community.

Aren't you feisty and looking for am internet argument.  As it stands you have misrepresented what I said that arguing with you would be tacitly admitting that I agree with your gross and intentional misrepresentation, so, no thanks.  Learn to be respectful and seek to understand before being understood or be ignored by those that expect adult behavior when it comes to bothering to debate you.  

I don't need to prove my point to you or anyone really, but if I'm going to then it's going to start with someone that learned and demonstrates kindergarten level manners because that shows they are capable of at least that much learning.  Trying to scream wisdom into deaf ears is not a productive use of my time.

Edited November 29, 2018 by Klokwerkaos

[Klokwerkaos]

7 hours ago, MasterBurik said:

@Klokwerkaos

Sounds like the ideal solution to your complaint is purchase-to-access content, directly aimed at vets and other players who would like a challenge.

Either you didn't understand what I said at all, or you are intentionally mischaracterizing what I said.

[MasterBurik]

4 hours ago, Klokwerkaos said:

Either you didn't understand what I said at all, or you are intentionally mischaracterizing what I said.

Perhaps I do not. Please elaborate.

[180Degree]

But how does that make the ''Business Model'' weak.... i study economics at my university and that has nothing to do with anything you just said.
To be honest their business model is strong and has made them enough liquid assets to continue what they are pursuing for the next couple years to come be sure of that my dude.

[Klokwerkaos]

16 hours ago, MasterBurik said:

@Klokwerkaos

Sounds like the ideal solution to your complaint is purchase-to-access content, directly aimed at vets and other players who would like a challenge.

What part are you unclear on?  what exactly made you think the conclusions you drew were correct?  I don't see anything that indicates what you said, so I'm very confused about how you took what I said to be interpreted to what you said.  To me, one does not logically follow the other even remotely, so I would need to understand where exactly in my response you came to interpret those things. 

Once I know that I can elaborate effectively.  Until then I cannot because what I said was clear as day as far as I can tell, and you're the only person that came to this conclusion, so I'm very confused as to how that came about.

[MasterBurik]

@Klokwerkaos

From my perspective: You were voicing your dissatisfaction with DE's continued decisions to cut (or nerf) content, in their efforts to draw in new players (last bit is my wording, I'll admit). You stated it was a bad habit, and that they could be making more money (and retaining more players) if that methodology changed. But you concluded that it is unlikely that this would change, and we should live with it.

 

I accepted that premise, and suggested something that could potentially be "tacked on" to their current methodology, without changing it: Challenging content with a price tag. If the difficulty and challenge of free content is going to continually be reigned in to ensure new players stick around (a continuation of the original accepted assumption), then paid content becomes the next step. It isn't particularly pleasant, and I would prefer they adjust their marketing strategy...but if they won't, I don't see this being a particularly outlandish alternative.

[(PSN)guzmantt1977]

On 2018-11-27 at 10:41 PM, WarRelic said:

It occurred to me the other day that I only have about half a dozen frames I play. They are my favorites. They are generally good at what they do and are sufficient to cover all the game content.

Where this becomes a problem for DE is that after I buy all the premium skins and accessories that I like or go with those frames, I'm much less value to the game as far as monetary backing goes.

I think they should look into how they can do something like character progression but for specific frames so that your favorite frames still add value once the customer has become attached to them. 

More skins are coming I know but what else could be done?     

This would be the case if you were the only player who spends money. Each of us has different tastes. We would all have different things that we would consider spending on. 

[Klokwerkaos]

47 minutes ago, MasterBurik said:

I accepted that premise, and suggested something that could potentially be "tacked on" to their current methodology, without changing it: Challenging content with a price tag. If the difficulty and challenge of free content is going to continually be reigned in to ensure new players stick around (a continuation of the original accepted assumption), then paid content becomes the next step. It isn't particularly pleasant, and I would prefer they adjust their marketing strategy...but if they won't, I don't see this being a particularly outlandish alternative.

So the main difference here is that you seemed to imply what I would want is this.

That is incorrect.  

What I would like is sustainable content, gameplay loops and rewards.

While this game may be free to play, I've done plenty of supporting the devs over the years, and I don't believe at all that the business model needs to change to accomodate the things I'm asking for.

Your position seems to imply that if they did anything that wasn't directly aimed at new players, then new players would stop arriving.

This is patently false.

Right now new players have about 3k hours of content geared specially for them, while vets have approximately 0 hours of content.   The closest we have to endgame content is decorating your dojo, and that is entirely tangential to the game, has no affect on game play mechanics at all, and is player driven content that a whole host of other games do better because they are built for that specifically and nothing else.  I'm grateful for it, I love that aspect of the game, but it's too grindy and limited to be sustainable, and I get why too, they don't have enough incentive to push out new deco objects and up the cap for dojo stuff.

Vets in many cases, have paid the bills for DE many times over.  In fact, it's the vets that don't leave and stick through the content droughts when no new players to speak of are here keeping the lights on.  

There is a common misconception that new players pay for this game entirely, and that's patently false.

They will often make a big purchase or two early on, but not all do, and many more won't buy more once they realize they are working towards nothing because there is no endgame content to speak of, and they'll get bored and drop off while the vets continue to collect and support in many ways, financial being only one.

New players have so much content they can't make sense of it.  They have so much content they can't figure it out.  They have so much content they don't have a clue how to create their own goals, much less prioritize them with any degree of wisdom, and at this point I'm convinced that's an intentional game feature because too much time has gone by to not include better tutorials after five years.  I don't blame DE for that, but I kind of wish they were at least a little more up front about it to create better player expectations.  if anything it could be a good marketing ploy "A game so wide and complex that you are still learning the ropes at 1000 hours" could appeal to a certain demographic.

Late game vets at max MR with all the formas, gear, arcanes, etc. may not all entirely agree on what precisely endgame content should look like exactly, but there is, has been, and will continue to be a routine outcry from that entire community asking for it.  Show me one vet with all content completed and another 1000 hours in after that point that doesn't want sustainable content to exist in some end game format.  Haven't seen one to date, don't think there is one that is right in the head.

Rails and raids had their problems, but they were something to do.  Right now there is nothing, arbitrations aren't it, that's for mid game players as it stands.  I've made suggestion to improve it, which will likely be ignored, but I can't say that for sure, because when I suggest something there's about a good 20% chance it makes it into the game in some form later on based on the dozen or so threads I've put together for things like that.

That said, adding paid accounts doesn't factor in to any of my suggestions, but honestly, if there was a content release aimed at vets that was good, and kept up on, and had the requirements I and so many others are looking for, we'd probably drop plat on a key for it without thinking twice.  I don't think that would be a good move, but instead having content that requires more from the player, something that is legit gated for realsies.  Arbitrations were close, but were weaksauce with rewards on launch, and have since been nerfed into the ground making it entirely mid game content that any player around MR 12ish should have no problem clearing with their eyes closed if they know how to make a decent build.

In no way do I think that such content I and many others would like to see should be pay to play only.

What it would do is give players something tangible to keep better player retention, and that itself brings in a lot more money.  Players staying = more money spent and more friends brought into game to in turn spend more money, etc.

WoW certainly had/has it's problems to be criticized ad infinitum, and yes, it's dying after creaking under it's ancient engine long past the point it should have died, but they new how to create sustainable challenge and content before they went all pokemon LCD.  They also made a butt ton of money, and produced, for the time, a very good game.  It was paid content, yes, but there is no reason the game design principles, concepts and lessons learned can't be transferable in many if not most ways.

 

 

 

[MasterBurik]

16 minutes ago, Klokwerkaos said:

So the main difference here is that you seemed to imply what I would want is this.

That is incorrect.  

I just stated that my given solution fit that scenario, based on how it sounded to me. Whether you wanted it or not never entered the equation.

Quote

What I would like is sustainable content, gameplay loops and rewards.

That is indeed quite appealing, but none of these really went against the solution I provided.

Quote

While this game may be free to play, I've done plenty of supporting the devs over the years, and I don't believe at all that the business model needs to change to accomodate the things I'm asking for.

The best business model is a fluid business model.

Quote

Your position seems to imply that if they did anything that wasn't directly aimed at new players, then new players would stop arriving.

This is patently false.

The only information I have given, regarding my position is: "...I would prefer they adjust their marketing strategy..." and even that is a rather broad statement. Everything else is a very narrowed perspective, based on a specific assumption that you may have made in jest.

 

All the rest, I have no qualms letting go...except this:

Quote

Arbitrations were close, but were weaksauce with rewards on launch, and have since been nerfed into the ground making it entirely mid game content that any player around MR 12ish should have no problem clearing with their eyes closed if they know how to make a decent build.

IMO: Arbitrations were never close to any kind of end-game content. Everything about them screamed mid-game from the get-go.

[(XBOX)EPOSSTYLE]

Discounts from packs that I own portions of! (Since I own some of it I won't rebuy it, so its a stalemate).

Catalyst 3pk?

Curved wings?

WWE type waist belts?

More rapla type capes, untattered?

Totally redesigned hydroid? ( I like his powers but he Is too busy on my eyes).

Art theme is straying away from dark sector( I don't like it).

Ability to switch legs and arms and feet? (Some frames I won't play bcuz aesthetically I don't like their shoes) I know its petty but this is fashion frame!

[JalakBali]

On 2018-11-28 at 10:41 AM, WarRelic said:

It occurred to me the other day that I only have about half a dozen frames I play. They are my favorites. They are generally good at what they do and are sufficient to cover all the game content.

Where this becomes a problem for DE is that after I buy all the premium skins and accessories that I like or go with those frames, I'm much less value to the game as far as monetary backing goes.

I think they should look into how they can do something like character progression but for specific frames so that your favorite frames still add value once the customer has become attached to them. 

More skins are coming I know but what else could be done?     

Spend more plat on other things? Armor pieces, syandanas, colors, orbiter decorations.

I don't get what you're asking here. Are you asking for DE to paywall things for certain frames as part of progression?

Your favorite frames already add value by having you shove eidolon/focus lens on them so they could earn focus. The whole point of the focus system is to reward players for playing their favorite frames and weapons, which is why their exp comes only after you maxed their affinity.

[WarRelic]

On 2018-11-28 at 4:07 PM, AdunSaveMe said:

I'm not sure what your point is here. Are you saying DE needs to make a way for you to keep spending more money? Because they already do that, by adding new frames and cosmetics and weapons. It's not a weak point in the business model that some people only spend money a couple of times, or just once, or don't spend any at all.

What I'm saying is I have a favorite frame, I can't play all the frames at once. How do I focus on the frame I like the most and where is the progression for your favorite frame. At some point the team is going to have a hard time coming up with new powers mechanics, at that point it will make making more frames not as viable once the game is so saturated with frames.

I already have so many frames I can't play them all but what keeps me playing if the horizontal progression is saturated and the vertical progression is limited to how much forma I can put on a single frame,the star chart and the story. 

People have "Mains", the Warframe they are attached to the most. At some point the business model could take a deeper look at this. Once you have a favorite frame it almost doesn't matter what new frame is released as it will pale compared to your favorite frame anyway purely on a thematic level, game play mechanics aside.

[WarRelic]

On 2018-11-28 at 7:53 PM, (XB1)Erudite God said:

Just buy all the skins in the game if you're worried that you're not spending enough money. DE is already doing exactly what you want by constantly adding new frames, weapons, and whatnot to the game.

You missed the point I already have a favorite set of weapons,and frames it almost doesn't matter what they add next,(outside of story and character progression.) 

What I'm trying to say is I love the game but I have a favorite frame and weapons. Where can DE create more entertainment where I can use these frames and weapons so I can still support the game.

I'm not gonna buy stuff for the sake of it or don't have a personal affinity for that's just common sense. 

( Vanity items are great and armor and weapons skins have value across all frames, my favorite frame can use all that content, which = revenue for DE.)   

[WarRelic]

8 hours ago, (XB1)EPOSSTYLE said:

Discounts from packs that I own portions of! (Since I own some of it I won't rebuy it, so its a stalemate).

Catalyst 3pk?

Curved wings?

WWE type waist belts?

More rapla type capes, untattered?

Totally redesigned hydroid? ( I like his powers but he Is too busy on my eyes).

Art theme is straying away from dark sector( I don't like it).

Ability to switch legs and arms and feet? (Some frames I won't play bcuz aesthetically I don't like their shoes) I know its petty but this is fashion frame!

All of this... some artists don't like doing feet so they don't. xD

* Especially your first point, there are things in the premium skin bundles I want but won't pay twice for, having only part of the set.

In-fact a premium weapon skin and armor accessories bundle would go down well. It's content that my favorite Frame can use that I would not have bought otherwise and kind of the point of what my post was getting at.

(For instance the Looted Loki Naive armor + the bow skin from Oberon's premium set + the sword skin from Frost's premium skin set.)

Maybe they could do a end of year round up for premium vanity items that aren't frame specific and put them in a pack.

Edited November 30, 2018 by WarRelic

[WarRelic]

22 hours ago, 180Degree said:

But how does that make the ''Business Model'' weak.... i study economics at my university and that has nothing to do with anything you just said.
To be honest their business model is strong and has made them enough liquid assets to continue what they are pursuing for the next couple years to come be sure of that my dude.

Even a tank has a weak point, I never said their model was weak only questioned a possible weak point.

Edited November 30, 2018 by WarRelic