Nyx & Titania Dev Workshop

[2old4gamez]

4 hours ago, -NightmareMoon- said:

so this is going to be available this year or we have to wait another 6 months?

It'll be ready when it's ready.

[WhimsicalPacifist]

On 2018-11-29 at 7:56 PM, -NR-SirLimbo said:

Here's what I think:

As for Titania's Lantern: Still feels a bit weak, though I could be wrong. How about this synergy: Razorwings deal equal damage, procs and effects to all targets affected by the Lantern. Titania's Razorwing weapons deal 20% of their damage to all enemies affected by Lantern (to balance it a bit).

Titania's Tribute sounds really nice. A lot less casting. I like that.

As for Razorwing itself: How about following: Razorwings deal anti-armor damage similar to how shattering impact does (stripping small amounts of base armor, intended for lategame). This way they actually have an use beyond level 30 or so.

1. Lantern becoming Anchorable and being able to get multiples of them down at the same time places her a step below Mag's 2.  It's the only change that will make her somewhat more usable in Mot (until 1-hit KO sniper Nullifiers spawn).
2. Tribute is still a noob-trap.  Still will get the same usage out of it as I currently do (zero).  Accuracy is dependent upon range to target, enemy type and enemy level.  Good if you need Dust to survive while leveling her.  Redundant if you're camping with Lantern and thus a waste of precious energy on a very energy hungry frame (with a silly-low energy pool).
3. Razorflies just need to respawn on headshot and perhaps scale with the stats of the enemy that they were spawned from.  Level-scaling that is active, skill-based and doesn't enable an AFK play-style.

Razorwing's Dex Pixia are the best scaling Exalted abilities on a frame that won't survive when that scaling is needed.  Why don't we use Diwata?  Because if you don't kill the enemy in one hit, you're right where most of the enemies are the most accurate, you don't get the benefit of scaling-melee mods and the stats are mediocre.

[GideonWilhelm]

4 minutes ago, WhimsicalPacifist said:

1. Razorflies just need to respawn on headshot and perhaps scale with the stats of the enemy that they were spawned from.  Level-scaling that is active, skill-based and doesn't enable an AFK play-style.

I'd like to second this.

[MinyTheReptileKing]

I love that they are fixing tribute, that will be very useful. I feel you should have the option to have your lantern tethered (a tether toggle) though because i loved launching lanterns into the atmosphere. Thank you DE for fixin up titania though :) my favorite warframe.

[WhimsicalPacifist]

Oh also no Operator out of Razorwing or interactions while in Razorwing.  Vacuum is very meh; I usually run dual Arcane Energizes and with her low Energy pool it will waste a massive amount of energy.

I love that they are fixing tribute, that will be very useful. I feel you should have the option to have your lantern tethered (a tether toggle) though because i loved launching lanterns into the atmosphere. Thank you DE for fixin up titania though 🙂 my favorite warframe.

Uhh, what's being fixed on it?  The damage reflect that will do .02% damage to the enemy's HP.  The accuracy debuff that is negated by enemy level scaling?

[HolySeraphin]

I will suggest some changes: 

Buff the Pacifying bolts augment for Nyx. They currently stun enemies, but if they receive another proc like blast, the effect of the augment will be lost. This means that if I have 200% duration, which would give me 20 seconds of stun, if the enemy receives a blast proc, he will fall down and start shooting at me after 3 seconds. Make it so that they return to their stunned state after standing up.

As for Absorb. Because the damage of Nyx's Absorb is supposed to be a psionic attack, instead of making it use the damage type that it received the most, why not make it so that it ignores damage resistance or that it deals true damage? After all, armor and shield means nothing against a psionic attack.

[CarrotSalad]

Could Titania please have the base casting range of her abilities extended please?

The biggest issue i have with her is how close i need to be to enemies to actually cast any of her abilities on enemies/allies. Even building her for range to try and cure this downside still leaves allot to be desired.

[(PSN)dannholly]

My baby Nyx is getting the love she deserves, Nyx best frame imo

[Kalvorax]

On 2018-11-28 at 10:20 AM, [DE]Rebecca said:

Lantern:

BEFORE:
Lantern was a single-target ability that could result in wildly bouncing enemies making it hard to achieve the core function of attracting witless enemies.  

AFTER:
Lantern can now be cast on up to 4 targets with better 'tethered' victims. You will be able to 'explode' all targets by holding the Lantern cast.

PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE...TETHER the target(s) to the floor....they are USELESS when they are floating AWAY from the enemy and to cloud 8.....

[(PSN)santospizarro]

though that i explain some new features for the Nyx so that she can be more effective she can throw some smaller balls that are parabollic/used as damage dealing weapons that are conductive; this would allow her to challenge enemies and manipulate them through the use of ki/chakra, and other symbols to advoid direct confrontations keeping her a ninja away from damage when they are avaliable they can perform other actions, the channeling and chaos eye or manipulation would look something like the sharingan from naruto, nyx simply can pick up an energy orb nearby to keep the enemy/pact going longer, deafeating other enemies also could workout for something, but whats important is that she can control these orbs, the orbs are metallic and small like pinballs, many of them and they also have eyeballs for the animations, maybe other unlockables as the player gains levels with the nyx abilities can give her other tools to fight from farther away, crouched, and while sprinting to perform secondary fire, or gather her pet/enemy/spheres.

(NYX) Secondary Fire Mode - Sphere more than a chakratool, a granade and optional weapon -I was thinking that nyx can use the balls as a granade that can be used for other things  to distract enemies, trap, and damage as a pseudo weapon like a boomeran, my weakness is that once thrown usually it would have to be fetched from what i seen in the game its is a good settup feature for other of her abilities if anybody wants to elaborate or come up with useful functions, maybe we can weave this new tool as a frag or trap that she can leave behin is that she can throw it as a granade, thus needs to be reformated into something that could work for her scanners, and map to track and warn her from damage before it happens if you know what i mean.

• Nyx could get a granade/tool that can be used to conduct magic manipulation and damage enemies from a safe distance,  channel energy into a tool for trapping, throwing, and hidding she is a ninja, using a ball from far away makes her less vulnerable and secondary fire is usful for other trick magic, shes too obvious right now she uses manipulate and gets shoot 12 times before, so the main idea is to give her some space options so players dont have to choose to close range/deathe, >> afk >>>, ther has to be a way to not get caught: mindcontrol is strenghtened with tools, the balls can be thrown from close range or be left to trap and snare enemies, if you want to you can also throw them as a granade, the increased range allows for more creative options when playing with Nyx, Acid bolts range is too short, the Ball/spheres should make for a better toy and they have capacitors for mods/energy. Goal:  safer casting and reduced MP. Ki is chanelled to sphere, this allows her not to get hurt, thus chakrarelocation hides Nyx completely giving her  more eyes on the field and privacy, her short range combat can be reworked with long range/tools inmind and new features for melee and stealth gameplay.
•  

[Nephieon]

I just wanted to pop in and say as a Titania main, I am so excited!! The new buff refresh will make it much easier to use her tribute, and I love that the one buff also affects the razorflies!

 

And I can't wait to have multiple lanturns.

 

I was worried that the changes would be drastic and make Titania a frame I wouldn't enjoy playing anymore. Thanks for giving her a polish but not drastically changing her <3

[Sorenxoras]

Never been a fan of Nyx. I think i'll try her out again after this. See what i can do for modding her.

[--RV--Cola]

Please rework Tribute, its both anti-synergistic(accuracy debuff and then damage reflect without any tankyness to speak of... what?) and not useful(25% slow is, for all intents and purposes, absolutely useless, especially given its horrid base range; 75% more damage to companions is almost as useless because their AI is bad and aside from a select few sentinel weapons, they never do enough damage to justify a damage build).

The only even semi-useful thing in the kit is that accuracy debuff, and even that is mediocre as-is.

And please make the auras affect warframes, not enemies.

[Naneel]

Another thing that always bothers me about Titania is that you currently are forced to play with her exalted weapons, as she cannot really survive outside of Razorwing. Its not that I don't like her weapons, except design, but it is sad that I cannot use my own weapons if I play high end content. Maybe it would be best to split her 4th Ability into a survivability Skill and an Exalted weapon. And a rework on her Diwata would be nice, but i guess we will get one ones Melee 3.0 is ready.

[llorange]

Titania seems to bug out recently, the debuff does not have any effect on enemies...

[GideonWilhelm]

14 minutes ago, Naneel said:

Another thing that always bothers me about Titania is that you currently are forced to play with her exalted weapons, as she cannot really survive outside of Razorwing. Its not that I don't like her weapons, except design, but it is sad that I cannot use my own weapons if I play high end content. Maybe it would be best to split her 4th Ability into a survivability Skill and an Exalted weapon. And a rework on her Diwata would be nice, but i guess we will get one ones Melee 3.0 is ready.

Her Diwata could use some love, but with the right setup, Dex Pixia absolutely SHREDS.  Being able to change to a different kind of weapon would be cool, but it could just as easily snap her in half with whatever other 'balance' tweaks they do to it to compensate for letting you carry a mara detron in fairy form.
 

 

4 minutes ago, llorange said:

Titania seems to bug out recently, the debuff does not have any effect on enemies...

Yeah, her lantern seems to be an issue for me as well.  Like it only seems to affect three or so enemies when you first cast it even though the range is supposed to be huge and there's no indication of a hard cap.  And her tribute debuffs have a pretty small radius so you have to get into danger to pick them up, then remain in danger to get use out of them while your razorflies get torn up like wet toilet paper... I just don't use tribute at all and I'd much rather it be reworked or turned into something else entirely.

Honestly the more I think about Titania's rework, the more I agree with Lifeof Rio's sentiment, "nah fam, take it back to the drawing board, just throw out the whole thing"

I do desperately want that vacuum in razorwing but everything else needs some serious fixing.

At the moment I just kinda wanna put police tape all around Titania and tell DE nobody goes near her until Pablo takes a crack at it.

[StormBlader-]

Absolutely loving the sound of these changes. I've wanted to go back to using Nyx for a while now. As for Titania, I absolutely adore her BUT her Razorwing ability suffers from the lackluster appeal of Archwings mechanics. When I shrink down and fight I don't want some slow linear flight pattern. It makes using her boring. To where only the appeal or idea is what brings me back to her.

[pook-pook]

Titania main here: looking forward to vacuum!! And the other bits 🙂

[ThreeFeetOfMagic]

I would love if you made Tribute regenerate a butterfly on cast with these changes. 

[GideonWilhelm]

I think the adjustments Rebecca detailed here are a good thing, and definitely a buff, but they're not what Titania needs. Titania needs synergy. Titania needs more control over what her kit does. Titania needs razorflies replenished without having to drop razorwing. Note that I'm not gonna get too crazy with Tribute... I think its effects need changed, but I also think that DE would know more about balance implications than I would.

Anyway, let's have a look.

 

PASSIVE: "Bullet-jump creates a trampoline that enhances bullet-jump maneuvers when used by allies."

-I think this one's fine. It's a little buggery to take full advantage of, but I don't think it's the most important. True, you gain no benefit from it when you're in Razorwing, but I see that as trading a bullet-jump passive for a literally flying passive, which is fair.

 

SPELLBIND: "Enemies fumble their weapons as they are whisked into the air. Nearby allies become immune to Status Effects."

-To me, the point of this one is to make things that are shooting be not shooting anymore. For the most part, it's fine, but let me aim it wherever I want instead of requiring an enemy or ally near my reticle. I'm not required to target anything for Hydroid's 1, just let me poof it wherever I'm pointing and if I screw it up that's on me. And this is especially important because...

1. Spellbind should create a beacon that has the same initial explosion effect, but draws the target of Lantern toward it. This will allow you to control Lantern without that weird flakey "shoot it to make it go" thing.

2. Casting Spellbind on a Tribute pickup should cause it to explode and create an aura at its position that applies the Dust and Entangle effects (slow and accuracy reduction) to enemies that enter, rather than around Titania herself. This would create a sort of area denial capability and even allow you to drag lantern through it so that enemies that survive the explosion return to the fight in a much more controlled way. Executing this combo would consume the drop that Tribute creates, so you couldn't summon the AoE zone and then subsequently pick it up. (Edited to clarify this.)

-The idea behind these synergies is to, first, have more control over Lantern, and second, divide up Tribute's effects into things that make more sense for CC/support (dust and entangle) and things that make more sense for an aura around Titania (thorns and full moon). (Edited to clarify this.)

-I would do some kind of razorwing interaction, but I don't think it needs one. You can literally fly and cast it, what more do you honestly need?

-"BUT WAIT!" I hear you exclaim. "WHAT ABOUT THE RAGDOLLING INTO THE STRATOSPHERE??" Just... I dunno, put some gravity on it, make it harder to move. The fact that this can be obnoxious for defense makes sense to me, but otherwise the point is to stop things from shooting and it does that already.

 

TRIBUTE: "Extract an offering from an enemy in the form of a random Ability Buff. Survivor's attacks are weakened."

-Right, so this also ragdolls the enemy you use it on, and the rework already makes it a combo target with Spellbind, so let's see what we can do. Do bear in mind again that my ideas for these changes are to avoid straying too far from how Tribute currently works, as I would have no way of gauging the balance implications if I came up with wholly new mechanics for it. (Edited to clarify this.)

1. Remove the damage debuff. In this hypothetical rework, I don't think it's necessary since you have the option to slow enemies by 25% with the Spellbind combo, which decreases their DPS anyway.

2. Instead of the random buff, picking it up gives the Thorns and Full Moon effects... except Thorns deals a small amount of true damage to enemies in the aura when they attack rather than when they deal damage. Thorns is already weak as heck and does absolutely nothing when nobody's taking damage anyway, might as well make it just shave off that extra little bit of health. The pet damage boost is fine too, for now, since I can't think of an alternative that would fundamentally alter the balance of her kit.

-Basically this would just give you an option to pick up the tribute for a slightly more offensive option, since enemies are gonna be shooting all over the place anyway when you dive into danger to nab it. It's not really changed all that much, but it's at least a bit more useful than it was before.

 

LANTERN: "Create a swarm of razorflies that transform an enemy into an irresistible floating beacon, attracting witless comrades and finally exploding."

-This is the big contentious one. Not only does it barely ever seem to work for me (a problem which I might be imagining) but there's also the issue where it just kinda goes off on its own. So, for starters...

1. We have it floating toward a beacon you make by casting Spellbind. In order for that to work, it needs to hover a fixed distance off the ground and stay put no matter what shoots at it. If you don't have a Spellbind beacon going, it moves slowly around the arena like Octavia's ball, just... y'know, slower and above the ground.

2. The beacon tethers to enemies it's affecting as a visual indicator that it's doing its job.

-Some simple changes, of course, but I think they're needed to make this ability feel better to use. Nothing crazy.

 

RAZORWING: "Shrink down and take flight, while razorflies attack nearby enemies."

-To me, this one is almost perfectly fine, with three problems in handling and survivability: Collecting loot, outdated controls, and razorflies as durable as wet toilet paper.

1. We're already getting a vacuum, so that's pretty great. Even if it's just something like 7 or 8 meters I'll call it a win. Actually can we just have that for right now like an appetizer while you guys work on the rest?

2. Titania's controls are mostly fine once you get used to them, but if you accidentally get stuck in a corner they're really tricky... pressing spacebar ascends relative to the camera instead of the map, so you could end up going forward and getting stuck. It's really disorienting to me, and having the more recent archwing controls (with some tweaks improving her ability to decelerate after 'dashing') would help greatly.

3. Dex Pixia headshots and Diwata melee kills- the first requiring skill and the latter requiring some pretty big cojones- should spawn a razorfly whose stats are scaled based on the level of the enemy headshotted/stabbed, up to the maximum of six flies; once you've maxed them, one has to die before you can make another.

-The last part would reward skilled or otherwise ballsy play with replenishment and steady improvement of a vital survival tool that's capable of scaling with the enemy, and can remove the need to drop razorwing and reactivate it to get more paper-thin bullet fodder. I also want to give credit to WhimsicalPacifist on the Warframe forums, who came up with the "heashots spawn razorflies" idea. The melee kills part was my idea.

 

Overall, I love Titania... I just don't wanna see her get a handful of slapdash buffs and then have to wait a doggone year for a real rework to happen.

I don't know how to end these posts

[Clucktrap]

I'm a titania main, (well except for defense in which i take limbo), lantern is pretty pointless as it feels that titania's whole shtick is being agile, having a stationary target that im going to leave alone in another part of the map is pointless, its sometimes nice, but even spellbind (which is pretty bad) can take its part as it is a quick aoe, it being a third ability means that using it will mean i have to get out of razorwing earlier (and without using it I can practically be a little fairy for the entire game).

To maximize her razorwing, I use strength and efficiency, tossing range and duration out the door, it would be great to replace the abillities which go against her ult's needs to be changed, one thing that could be nice is a razorfly related abillity, summoning a bunch of razorflies to distract and damage enemies all over the place would be more effective than a min range lantern, and would also work good with tribute's announced changes, recasting a special abillity for a noticeable amount of razorflies would be better than recasting razorwing for just 6 of them.

[Oblivire]

I wanted to preface this by saying that Nyx's new abilities seem wonderful-  I can see myself using all of them with those changes.  However, please re enable the gear wheel for her when using assimilate.  It was fun to be able to fish or mine with it on, along with dance.  Also, I had discussed a possibility for the Titania rework here:  

Anyways, onto the rest of my post.  I think that a frame is at it's finest when all of their abilities feel like they have equal use, or compliment eachother.  Titania doesn't feel that way at all, even after these changes.  The only really useful Tribute is Dust, and even then if you're low to the ground an explosion will hit you and you'll die anyways.  I personally think people want to use her abilities, but razorwing's weapons are just so much better in terms of where your energy goes.  I also think her passive atm is -okay-, but not amazing, and that the fairy like feeling of razorwing is the main reason to play her.  I believe her passive should be replaced with her razorwing, minus the razorwings and the weapons.  It could also give her a like, 70% nerf to her regular weapons while she's in it, and not drain her energy.  This would allow her to become a mobile caster, or the giggling pixie I think she should be.  Her ult would merely add the weapons, and probably cost more energy, to discourage continual use.

 

I covered this in more depth in my earlier post, along with having a bit of a discussion with others about it.

[GideonWilhelm]

6 minutes ago, Oblivire said:

I wanted to preface this by saying that Nyx's new abilities seem wonderful-  I can see myself using all of them with those changes.  Also, I had discussed a possibility for the Titania rework here:  

Anyways, onto the rest of my post.  I think that a frame is at it's finest when all of their abilities feel like they have equal use, or compliment eachother.  Titania doesn't feel that way at all, even after these changes.  The only really useful Tribute is Dust, and even then if you're low to the ground an explosion will hit you and you'll die anyways.  I personally think people want to use her abilities, but razorwing's weapons are just so much better in terms of where your energy goes.  I also think her passive atm is -okay-, but not amazing, and that the fairy like feeling of razorwing is the main reason to play her.  I believe her passive should be replaced with her razorwing, minus the razorwings and the weapons.  It could also give her a like, 70% nerf to her regular weapons while she's in it.  This would allow her to become a mobile caster, or the giggling pixie I think she should be.  Her ult would merely add the weapons, and probably cost more energy, to discourage continual use.

 

I covered this in more depth in my earlier post, along with having a bit of a discussion with others about it.

gotta be honest dude, a 70% nerf to her weapons while in razorwing feels less like a rework and more like a passive-aggressive way to request that nobody ever play her again.  I might be more inclined to consider your ideas if it gave some tremendous benefit to her other abilities, but even then, with warframe's design philosophy, such a massive sledgehammer to her weapons while in razorwing is the complete antithesis of everything warframe pushes us toward, namely shooting things with guns and using abilities to compliment the shooting things with guns.  Nobody's gonna bother forma-ing their weapons for use with Titania if they're only going to get a quarter of the power, and in a game where they really really want you to forma your weapons, that's just not gonna get traction.  I've got an alternative a few posts up that could give you the complimentary abilities you're looking for in a much more warframe-friendly way.

[Oblivire]

35 minutes ago, GideonWilhelm said:

gotta be honest dude, a 70% nerf to her weapons while in razorwing feels less like a rework and more like a passive-aggressive way to request that nobody ever play her again.  I might be more inclined to consider your ideas if it gave some tremendous benefit to her other abilities, but even then, with warframe's design philosophy, such a massive sledgehammer to her weapons while in razorwing is the complete antithesis of everything warframe pushes us toward, namely shooting things with guns and using abilities to compliment the shooting things with guns.  Nobody's gonna bother forma-ing their weapons for use with Titania if they're only going to get a quarter of the power, and in a game where they really really want you to forma your weapons, that's just not gonna get traction.  I've got an alternative a few posts up that could give you the complimentary abilities you're looking for in a much more warframe-friendly way.

The main goal with that is to push her more towards a caster mentality, similar to how Limbo is with the rift.  I don't mean the exalted, razorwing weapons-  If you want to kill stuff with the full force of your guns, you'd just have to leave the passive, simply.  Which would be quite quick.  I suppose alternatively, it could give a large range boost to her abilities, and not nerf the weapon damage?  But then there'd be no reason to not use the passive...

I do like most of your ideas, Gideon, but I think the passive is useless and uninteresting.  Like, allies can use it too, for example.  But nobody ever does.  It would be better if that makes her into a mobile caster instead, in my opinion.

[GideonWilhelm]

 

13 minutes ago, Oblivire said:

The main goal with that is to push her more towards a caster mentality, similar to how Limbo is with the rift.  I don't mean the exalted, razorwing weapons-  If you want to kill stuff with the full force of your guns, you'd just have to leave the passive, simply.  Which would be quite quick.  I suppose alternatively, it could give a large range boost to her abilities, and not nerf the weapon damage?  But then there'd be no reason to not use the passive...

But the entire point of playing Titania is feeling like a fairy that flies around and shoots stuff.  Caster frames are completely antithetical to the design philosophy of Warframe, and the dev team has consistently said they don't want you to focus on spamming abilities.

Also, I believe you fundamentally misunderstand Limbo.  Limbo's entire point is to dance in and out of the rift.  He pops out, launches enemies into the rift, then goes in the rift himself to kill them with relative safety.  You CANNOT apply this same concept to Titania's razorwing because it just doesn't work that way.

Seriously, read my post above.  I propose her 1 combos with her 2 and 3... changing their effects in little ways that make them work together quite well.  And I know you commented before on the energy drain, in your post you said that she has very high energy consumption, but if you give her 175% efficiency (edit: why did I type damage reduction before), her energy consumption is very small and very easy to manage.

The goal of my rework is not to push her toward a more caster mentality.  The goal of a rework should never be to push a frame toward a caster mentality.  The goal is to give Titania a control mentality, the ability to finely operate her abilities on the field and manipulate her enemies like the Fey of fantasy stories would.

Nerfing her weapons just to force her out of her passive, or force her to rely on her abilities while in her passive, would fundamentally undermine and destroy the entire reason we enjoy Titania.  We play her because we like flying around like a pixie.  Redesigning her to discourage that makes absolutely no sense.