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[DE]Rebecca

Nyx & Titania Dev Workshop

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I think the adjustments Rebecca detailed here are a good thing, and definitely a buff, but they're not what Titania needs. Titania needs synergy. Titania needs more control over what her kit does. Titania needs razorflies replenished without having to drop razorwing. Note that I'm not gonna get too crazy with Tribute... I think its effects need changed, but I also think that DE would know more about balance implications than I would.

Anyway, let's have a look.

 

PASSIVE: "Bullet-jump creates a trampoline that enhances bullet-jump maneuvers when used by allies."

-I think this one's fine. It's a little buggery to take full advantage of, but I don't think it's the most important. True, you gain no benefit from it when you're in Razorwing, but I see that as trading a bullet-jump passive for a literally flying passive, which is fair.

 

SPELLBIND: "Enemies fumble their weapons as they are whisked into the air. Nearby allies become immune to Status Effects."

-To me, the point of this one is to make things that are shooting be not shooting anymore. For the most part, it's fine, but let me aim it wherever I want instead of requiring an enemy or ally near my reticle. I'm not required to target anything for Hydroid's 1, just let me poof it wherever I'm pointing and if I screw it up that's on me. And this is especially important because...

  1. Spellbind should create a beacon that has the same initial explosion effect, but draws the target of Lantern toward it. This will allow you to control Lantern without that weird flakey "shoot it to make it go" thing.

  2. Casting Spellbind on a Tribute pickup should cause it to explode and create an aura at its position that applies the Dust and Entangle effects (slow and accuracy reduction) to enemies that enter, rather than around Titania herself. This would create a sort of area denial capability and even allow you to drag lantern through it so that enemies that survive the explosion return to the fight in a much more controlled way. Executing this combo would consume the drop that Tribute creates, so you couldn't summon the AoE zone and then subsequently pick it up. (Edited to clarify this.)

-The idea behind these synergies is to, first, have more control over Lantern, and second, divide up Tribute's effects into things that make more sense for CC/support (dust and entangle) and things that make more sense for an aura around Titania (thorns and full moon). (Edited to clarify this.)

-I would do some kind of razorwing interaction, but I don't think it needs one. You can literally fly and cast it, what more do you honestly need?

-"BUT WAIT!" I hear you exclaim. "WHAT ABOUT THE RAGDOLLING INTO THE STRATOSPHERE??" Just... I dunno, put some gravity on it, make it harder to move. The fact that this can be obnoxious for defense makes sense to me, but otherwise the point is to stop things from shooting and it does that already.

 

TRIBUTE: "Extract an offering from an enemy in the form of a random Ability Buff. Survivor's attacks are weakened."

-Right, so this also ragdolls the enemy you use it on, and the rework already makes it a combo target with Spellbind, so let's see what we can do. Do bear in mind again that my ideas for these changes are to avoid straying too far from how Tribute currently works, as I would have no way of gauging the balance implications if I came up with wholly new mechanics for it. (Edited to clarify this.)

  1. Remove the damage debuff. In this hypothetical rework, I don't think it's necessary since you have the option to slow enemies by 25% with the Spellbind combo, which decreases their DPS anyway.

  2. Instead of the random buff, picking it up gives the Thorns and Full Moon effects... except Thorns deals a small amount of true damage to enemies in the aura when they attack rather than when they deal damage. Thorns is already weak as heck and does absolutely nothing when nobody's taking damage anyway, might as well make it just shave off that extra little bit of health. The pet damage boost is fine too, for now, since I can't think of an alternative that would fundamentally alter the balance of her kit.

-Basically this would just give you an option to pick up the tribute for a slightly more offensive option, since enemies are gonna be shooting all over the place anyway when you dive into danger to nab it. It's not really changed all that much, but it's at least a bit more useful than it was before.

 

LANTERN: "Create a swarm of razorflies that transform an enemy into an irresistible floating beacon, attracting witless comrades and finally exploding."

-This is the big contentious one. Not only does it barely ever seem to work for me (a problem which I might be imagining) but there's also the issue where it just kinda goes off on its own. So, for starters...

  1. We have it floating toward a beacon you make by casting Spellbind. In order for that to work, it needs to hover a fixed distance off the ground and stay put no matter what shoots at it. If you don't have a Spellbind beacon going, it moves slowly around the arena like Octavia's ball, just... y'know, slower and above the ground.

  2. The beacon tethers to enemies it's affecting as a visual indicator that it's doing its job.

-Some simple changes, of course, but I think they're needed to make this ability feel better to use. Nothing crazy.

 

RAZORWING: "Shrink down and take flight, while razorflies attack nearby enemies."

-To me, this one is almost perfectly fine, with three problems in handling and survivability: Collecting loot, outdated controls, and razorflies as durable as wet toilet paper.

  1. We're already getting a vacuum, so that's pretty great. Even if it's just something like 7 or 8 meters I'll call it a win. Actually can we just have that for right now like an appetizer while you guys work on the rest?

  2. Titania's controls are mostly fine once you get used to them, but if you accidentally get stuck in a corner they're really tricky... pressing spacebar ascends relative to the camera instead of the map, so you could end up going forward and getting stuck. It's really disorienting to me, and having the more recent archwing controls (with some tweaks improving her ability to decelerate after 'dashing') would help greatly.

  3. Dex Pixia headshots and Diwata melee kills- the first requiring skill and the latter requiring some pretty big cojones- should spawn a razorfly whose stats are scaled based on the level of the enemy headshotted/stabbed, up to the maximum of six flies; once you've maxed them, one has to die before you can make another.

-The last part would reward skilled or otherwise ballsy play with replenishment and steady improvement of a vital survival tool that's capable of scaling with the enemy, and can remove the need to drop razorwing and reactivate it to get more paper-thin bullet fodder. I also want to give credit to WhimsicalPacifist on the Warframe forums, who came up with the "heashots spawn razorflies" idea. The melee kills part was my idea.

 

Overall, I love Titania... I just don't wanna see her get a handful of slapdash buffs and then have to wait a doggone year for a real rework to happen.

I don't know how to end these posts

Edited by GideonWilhelm
Adjustments were made on my original reddit post, cloning them here.
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I'm a titania main, (well except for defense in which i take limbo), lantern is pretty pointless as it feels that titania's whole shtick is being agile, having a stationary target that im going to leave alone in another part of the map is pointless, its sometimes nice, but even spellbind (which is pretty bad) can take its part as it is a quick aoe, it being a third ability means that using it will mean i have to get out of razorwing earlier (and without using it I can practically be a little fairy for the entire game).

To maximize her razorwing, I use strength and efficiency, tossing range and duration out the door, it would be great to replace the abillities which go against her ult's needs to be changed, one thing that could be nice is a razorfly related abillity, summoning a bunch of razorflies to distract and damage enemies all over the place would be more effective than a min range lantern, and would also work good with tribute's announced changes, recasting a special abillity for a noticeable amount of razorflies would be better than recasting razorwing for just 6 of them.

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I wanted to preface this by saying that Nyx's new abilities seem wonderful-  I can see myself using all of them with those changes.  However, please re enable the gear wheel for her when using assimilate.  It was fun to be able to fish or mine with it on, along with dance.  Also, I had discussed a possibility for the Titania rework here:  

Anyways, onto the rest of my post.  I think that a frame is at it's finest when all of their abilities feel like they have equal use, or compliment eachother.  Titania doesn't feel that way at all, even after these changes.  The only really useful Tribute is Dust, and even then if you're low to the ground an explosion will hit you and you'll die anyways.  I personally think people want to use her abilities, but razorwing's weapons are just so much better in terms of where your energy goes.  I also think her passive atm is -okay-, but not amazing, and that the fairy like feeling of razorwing is the main reason to play her.  I believe her passive should be replaced with her razorwing, minus the razorwings and the weapons.  It could also give her a like, 70% nerf to her regular weapons while she's in it, and not drain her energy.  This would allow her to become a mobile caster, or the giggling pixie I think she should be.  Her ult would merely add the weapons, and probably cost more energy, to discourage continual use.

 

I covered this in more depth in my earlier post, along with having a bit of a discussion with others about it.

Edited by Oblivire
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6 minutes ago, Oblivire said:

I wanted to preface this by saying that Nyx's new abilities seem wonderful-  I can see myself using all of them with those changes.  Also, I had discussed a possibility for the Titania rework here:  

Anyways, onto the rest of my post.  I think that a frame is at it's finest when all of their abilities feel like they have equal use, or compliment eachother.  Titania doesn't feel that way at all, even after these changes.  The only really useful Tribute is Dust, and even then if you're low to the ground an explosion will hit you and you'll die anyways.  I personally think people want to use her abilities, but razorwing's weapons are just so much better in terms of where your energy goes.  I also think her passive atm is -okay-, but not amazing, and that the fairy like feeling of razorwing is the main reason to play her.  I believe her passive should be replaced with her razorwing, minus the razorwings and the weapons.  It could also give her a like, 70% nerf to her regular weapons while she's in it.  This would allow her to become a mobile caster, or the giggling pixie I think she should be.  Her ult would merely add the weapons, and probably cost more energy, to discourage continual use.

 

I covered this in more depth in my earlier post, along with having a bit of a discussion with others about it.

gotta be honest dude, a 70% nerf to her weapons while in razorwing feels less like a rework and more like a passive-aggressive way to request that nobody ever play her again.  I might be more inclined to consider your ideas if it gave some tremendous benefit to her other abilities, but even then, with warframe's design philosophy, such a massive sledgehammer to her weapons while in razorwing is the complete antithesis of everything warframe pushes us toward, namely shooting things with guns and using abilities to compliment the shooting things with guns.  Nobody's gonna bother forma-ing their weapons for use with Titania if they're only going to get a quarter of the power, and in a game where they really really want you to forma your weapons, that's just not gonna get traction.  I've got an alternative a few posts up that could give you the complimentary abilities you're looking for in a much more warframe-friendly way.

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35 minutes ago, GideonWilhelm said:

gotta be honest dude, a 70% nerf to her weapons while in razorwing feels less like a rework and more like a passive-aggressive way to request that nobody ever play her again.  I might be more inclined to consider your ideas if it gave some tremendous benefit to her other abilities, but even then, with warframe's design philosophy, such a massive sledgehammer to her weapons while in razorwing is the complete antithesis of everything warframe pushes us toward, namely shooting things with guns and using abilities to compliment the shooting things with guns.  Nobody's gonna bother forma-ing their weapons for use with Titania if they're only going to get a quarter of the power, and in a game where they really really want you to forma your weapons, that's just not gonna get traction.  I've got an alternative a few posts up that could give you the complimentary abilities you're looking for in a much more warframe-friendly way.

The main goal with that is to push her more towards a caster mentality, similar to how Limbo is with the rift.  I don't mean the exalted, razorwing weapons-  If you want to kill stuff with the full force of your guns, you'd just have to leave the passive, simply.  Which would be quite quick.  I suppose alternatively, it could give a large range boost to her abilities, and not nerf the weapon damage?  But then there'd be no reason to not use the passive...

I do like most of your ideas, Gideon, but I think the passive is useless and uninteresting.  Like, allies can use it too, for example.  But nobody ever does.  It would be better if that makes her into a mobile caster instead, in my opinion.

Edited by Oblivire
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13 minutes ago, Oblivire said:

The main goal with that is to push her more towards a caster mentality, similar to how Limbo is with the rift.  I don't mean the exalted, razorwing weapons-  If you want to kill stuff with the full force of your guns, you'd just have to leave the passive, simply.  Which would be quite quick.  I suppose alternatively, it could give a large range boost to her abilities, and not nerf the weapon damage?  But then there'd be no reason to not use the passive...

But the entire point of playing Titania is feeling like a fairy that flies around and shoots stuff.  Caster frames are completely antithetical to the design philosophy of Warframe, and the dev team has consistently said they don't want you to focus on spamming abilities.

Also, I believe you fundamentally misunderstand Limbo.  Limbo's entire point is to dance in and out of the rift.  He pops out, launches enemies into the rift, then goes in the rift himself to kill them with relative safety.  You CANNOT apply this same concept to Titania's razorwing because it just doesn't work that way.

Seriously, read my post above.  I propose her 1 combos with her 2 and 3... changing their effects in little ways that make them work together quite well.  And I know you commented before on the energy drain, in your post you said that she has very high energy consumption, but if you give her 175% efficiency (edit: why did I type damage reduction before), her energy consumption is very small and very easy to manage.

The goal of my rework is not to push her toward a more caster mentality.  The goal of a rework should never be to push a frame toward a caster mentality.  The goal is to give Titania a control mentality, the ability to finely operate her abilities on the field and manipulate her enemies like the Fey of fantasy stories would.

Nerfing her weapons just to force her out of her passive, or force her to rely on her abilities while in her passive, would fundamentally undermine and destroy the entire reason we enjoy Titania.  We play her because we like flying around like a pixie.  Redesigning her to discourage that makes absolutely no sense.

Edited by GideonWilhelm
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Making her Razorwing a passive would be nice and cool, but to good. Instead give her a defensive Ability outside of Razorwing :

Make it like Equinox 3rd Ability, so that you pay for every Razorwing you summon (Max depending on Ability Duration). Each Razorwing has a high thread level, as now and if it dies will be summoned back for 10-25 Energy each. (Maybe add a little cooldown per Razorfly) They will seek out nearby targets (up to 15m, depending on Ability Range), preferring those that are "marked" by her 1st Ability. (similar to how Novas 1st works). Would mak a good 2nd Ability, so we need a new way to get buffs. 

1st Ability : Instead of a projectile make it a cone in front of you. The effect stays the same plus you extract souls from all enemies you hit.

If you don't collect your souls your Razorflies will do it instead of attacking enemies.

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2 minutes ago, Naneel said:

Making her Razorwing a passive would be nice and cool, but to good. Instead give her a defensive Ability outside of Razorwing :

Make it like Equinox 3rd Ability, so that you pay for every Razorwing you summon (Max depending on Ability Duration). Each Razorwing has a high thread level, as now and if it dies will be summoned back for 10-25 Energy each. (Maybe add a little cooldown per Razorfly) They will seek out nearby targets (up to 15m, depending on Ability Range), preferring those that are "marked" by her 1st Ability. (similar to how Novas 1st works). Would mak a good 2nd Ability, so we need a new way to get buffs. 

1st Ability : Instead of a projectile make it a cone in front of you. The effect stays the same plus you extract souls from all enemies you hit.

If you don't collect your souls your Razorflies will do it instead of attacking enemies.

I think all those 'razorwings' were supposed to be 'razorflies' but I like where your head is at with razorflies targeting spellbound enemies and gathering tributes for you.

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If they will make her primarily caster, they will lose that 0.5% players that play her. Including me, i really don't like support and it's good that she can do something solo. 

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2 minutes ago, GideonWilhelm said:

 

But the entire point of playing Titania is feeling like a fairy that flies around and shoots stuff.  Caster frames are completely antithetical to the design philosophy of Warframe, and the dev team has consistently said they don't want you to focus on spamming abilities.

Also, I believe you fundamentally misunderstand Limbo.  Limbo's entire point is to dance in and out of the rift.  He pops out, launches enemies into the rift, then goes in the rift himself to kill them with relative safety.  You CANNOT apply this same concept to Titania's razorwing because it just doesn't work that way.

Seriously, read my post above.  I propose her 1 combos with her 2 and 3... changing their effects in little ways that make them work together quite well.  And I know you commented before on the energy drain, in your post you said that she has very high energy consumption, but if you give her 175% damage reduction, her energy consumption is very small and very easy to manage.

The goal of my rework is not to push her toward a more caster mentality.  The goal of a rework should never be to push a frame toward a caster mentality.  The goal is to give Titania a control mentality, the ability to finely operate her abilities on the field and manipulate her enemies like the Fey of fantasy stories would.

Nerfing her weapons just to force her out of her passive, or force her to rely on her abilities while in her passive, would fundamentally undermine and destroy the entire reason we enjoy Titania.  We play her because we like flying around like a pixie.  Redesigning her to discourage that makes absolutely no sense.

My idea encourages the flying around like a pixie, and it does not touch her original 4th ability.  Our ideas are not combative against eachother.  It simply would make her passive far more useful than it currently is.  It would be that she is more of a control character while in it, and more damaging when using her 4th ability.  The 70% damage reduction was so that you wouldn't simply use Ignis or a different strong weapon while flying around, and instead need to either use her 4, because Ignis or such would make it useless to ever use it, or leave the passive to regain full damage.  It would, however, not touch status procs, so you could use those on her weapons to be the tricky fae I like to think she is meant to be.

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11 minutes ago, Oblivire said:

My idea encourages the flying around like a pixie, and it does not touch her original 4th ability.  Our ideas are not combative against eachother.  It simply would make her passive far more useful than it currently is.  It would be that she is more of a control character while in it, and more damaging when using her 4th ability.  The 70% damage reduction was so that you wouldn't simply use Ignis or a different strong weapon while flying around, and instead need to either use her 4, because Ignis or such would make it useless to ever use it, or leave the passive to regain full damage.  It would, however, not touch status procs, so you could use those on her weapons to be the tricky fae I like to think she is meant to be.

Her passive is fine as it is, and though I agree a better one would be nice, her razorwing trades a bullet jump passive for a literally flying passive.  If razorwing was moved to her passive by itself with unplayable weapon damage and her 4th ability just becomes the full kit with razorflies and full weapon damage at a channeling cost, while that could work in theory, it would ultimately just be completely obtuse and change nothing about how she's actually played.

Seriously I'm sitting here poking holes in your ideas, read my rework above and poke some holes in my ideas.  Criticize me back so I can come away from this having learned something.

Edit: I need sleep so I won't respond to things right away if I'm quoted

Edited by GideonWilhelm

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16 minutes ago, GideonWilhelm said:

Her passive is fine as it is, and though I agree a better one would be nice, her razorwing trades a bullet jump passive for a literally flying passive.  If razorwing was moved to her passive by itself with unplayable weapon damage and her 4th ability just becomes the full kit with razorflies and full weapon damage at a channeling cost, while that could work in theory, it would ultimately just be completely obtuse and change nothing about how she's actually played.

Seriously I'm sitting here poking holes in your ideas, read my rework above and poke some holes in my ideas.  Criticize me back so I can come away from this having learned something.

I don't think it's completely obtuse:  Look at Ember's passive.  You gain crazy power strength and energy regen when you light yourself on fire (I use a Javlok to proc it, myself).  Limbo has (and why I made the comparison earlier), full damage and status immunity at the cost of a 100% damage reduction to anything not on his plane.  My idea would allow the use of her other abilities in her fun fairy form, without becoming a game of energy management instead, like it currently is.  With my idea, she could hop in and out of razorwing, while staying in her flying form, in order to regain energy and CC enemies, or swap to being highly damaging.  If she had a bigger energy pool it might be unnecessary...  And I would, but I quite honestly like your ideas.  The only thing I disagree with is the lantern moving to the spot of where spellbind was last cast when hovering above the ground.  I feel instead, spellbind could be a charged ability, to increase the range.  An uncharged one would be directly in front of you, and a fully charged one would be at the surface you target if it is in your ability range.  That way, the beacon could be anywhere, even above, and the lantern would slowly float to it until it is directly on it.  This could allow affecting enemies on two floors, rather than just the ground.

Edited by Oblivire
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2 minutes ago, Oblivire said:

I don't think it's completely obtuse:  Look at Ember's passive.  You gain crazy power strength and energy regen when you light yourself on fire (I use a Javlok to proc it, myself).  Limbo has (and why I made the comparison earlier), full damage and status immunity at the cost of a 100% damage reduction to anything not on his plane.  My idea would allow the use of her other abilities in her fun fairy form, without becoming a game of energy management instead, like it currently is.  If she had a bigger energy pool it might be unnecessary...  And I would, but I quite honestly like your ideas.  The only thing I disagree with is the lantern moving to the spot of where spellbind was last cast when hovering above the ground.  I feel instead, spellbind could be a charged ability, to increase the range.  An uncharged one would be directly in front of you, and a fully charged one would be at the surface you target if it is in your ability range.  That way, the beacon could be anywhere, even above, and the lantern would slowly float to it until it is directly on it.  This could allow affecting enemies on two floors, rather than just the ground.

Again, you fundamentally misunderstand Limbo if you're trying to apply the same principle to Razorwing.  Unless Titania has the ability to shrink enemies and deal full damage on them or pull them into the Razorwing plane, that suggestion makes no sense at all.

Her abilities are breathtakingly easy to afford when you stack up efficiency on her, and will only get easier to manage when she gets vacuum.

And that was the idea of the spellbind/lantern interaction to begin with, just that the lantern would be at a constant hover height so that it wouldn't drop its attraction on enemies if you commanded it to move to a higher platform.  If you did so, it would move up there using the same avenue the rest of the AI could use (I.E. stairs) so that it wouldn't lose them, as opposed to floating upward in such a way that it stops dealing damage to them.

I think what you and I are disagreeing on here is an understanding of the point of guns in warframe.  They're not a bartering chip to give you a reason not to use an ability by giving you 70% weapon damage reduction while that ability is active.  A passive, especially, should never have a negative impact on a warframe that isn't part of some grander design (like Limbo being unable to damage enemies on the opposite plane was designed so that Limbo could isolate groups of enemies on his own turf and destroy them from relative safety).  And I understand that you'll probably say the trade-off is a similar concept but it's really not.  We don't need another limbo.

I could see Razorwing being moved to her dodge, sure.  Keep her other abilities the same and make the razorflies respawn at a specific rate, albeit without scaling, and leave her weapon damage alone.  That would make sense to me, but ultimately I think it'd be pretty boring.  "But you'd have no reason not to use Razorwing then!"  Well, you could bring back the bonk damage and... I don't like it again.

Razorwing on dodge as a passive is a cool idea on paper, but would be an utter mess of balance issues in practice is ultimately what I'm trying to get across here.  If we must change her passive, how about an aura that reduces the effects of staggering/knockdown on her allies?  It's useful in either mode and we don't have to snap her 4 in half to spread it out.

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vor einer Stunde schrieb GideonWilhelm:

I think all those 'razorwings' were supposed to be 'razorflies' but I like where your head is at with razorflies targeting spellbound enemies and gathering tributes for you.

Yes thats what I meant. She defenitely needs more Razorflies¬†ūüėĀ.

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5 hours ago, GideonWilhelm said:

Again, you fundamentally misunderstand Limbo if you're trying to apply the same principle to Razorwing.  Unless Titania has the ability to shrink enemies and deal full damage on them or pull them into the Razorwing plane, that suggestion makes no sense at all.

Her abilities are breathtakingly easy to afford when you stack up efficiency on her, and will only get easier to manage when she gets vacuum.

And that was the idea of the spellbind/lantern interaction to begin with, just that the lantern would be at a constant hover height so that it wouldn't drop its attraction on enemies if you commanded it to move to a higher platform.  If you did so, it would move up there using the same avenue the rest of the AI could use (I.E. stairs) so that it wouldn't lose them, as opposed to floating upward in such a way that it stops dealing damage to them.

I think what you and I are disagreeing on here is an understanding of the point of guns in warframe.  They're not a bartering chip to give you a reason not to use an ability by giving you 70% weapon damage reduction while that ability is active.  A passive, especially, should never have a negative impact on a warframe that isn't part of some grander design (like Limbo being unable to damage enemies on the opposite plane was designed so that Limbo could isolate groups of enemies on his own turf and destroy them from relative safety).  And I understand that you'll probably say the trade-off is a similar concept but it's really not.  We don't need another limbo.

I could see Razorwing being moved to her dodge, sure.  Keep her other abilities the same and make the razorflies respawn at a specific rate, albeit without scaling, and leave her weapon damage alone.  That would make sense to me, but ultimately I think it'd be pretty boring.  "But you'd have no reason not to use Razorwing then!"  Well, you could bring back the bonk damage and... I don't like it again.

Razorwing on dodge as a passive is a cool idea on paper, but would be an utter mess of balance issues in practice is ultimately what I'm trying to get across here.  If we must change her passive, how about an aura that reduces the effects of staggering/knockdown on her allies?  It's useful in either mode and we don't have to snap her 4 in half to spread it out.

While your passive idea is interesting, in practice it would be about as useless as the current one.  Everybody in warframe tries to solo stuff, making it not very team based.  It would need to have a range, and the only times people might be in that range is during some kind of defense.  This is the same reason her current passive is so useless.  It's lovely on paper, but nobody cooperates.  I personally have 6 forma on Titania, and have efficiency and duration as high as I can get them, with a maxed primed flow.  Her abilities are cheap, yes, but she needs to use them very frequently, and that adds up.  Especially when you're constantly using energy.  Currently, you don't typically even use guns on Titania, just her 4th ability, which in my opinion turns her into a fairy with an AK-47.   She's too squishy to use in high levels otherwise.  While I think the 70% can be argued to a lower amount, I don't think it should be 0.  The only way it could be that, is if the Dex Pixia shots exploded into damaging dust clouds on impact, and the melee did the same.  It suffers from lack of aoe quite harshly, which makes it worse than most weapons without some kind of equalizer-  I've even seen sniper rifles outperform it, and it's a single target exalted weapon.

 And I see regarding the lantern.  A solution to my idea would be to make the attract a debuff that constantly applies, with a 5 second or so duration.  It would save the time of pathing up stairs, which could be the difference in saving someone's life with it without losing all the other targets from recasting.

Edit: It was fun arguing with you over this, but unfortunately I have to leave for work.

Edit 2:  Finding some free time, a major hole in your idea is the that Titania's passive is traded for her ult.  She loses that and her pet.  Does any other frame have such a penalty?  Not really, from memory.

Edit 3: Upon further thought, that Zephyr can do similar with janky flight and 100% evasion, and archwings in the open worlds, I agree that it should have 100% damage.  Two caveats:  It should not have the razorwing butterflies, and the augment should not carry over.  I had forgot she had to leave it to use X, which is sufficient encouragement to use her regular form sometimes.

Edited by Oblivire
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I was confused at first, but I can see why nothing was done to Chaos. The changes to Mind Control and Psychic Bolts should cover the shortcomings Chaos had (and will finally give her something to use Power Strength on). And to have that passive disarm replaced with an accuracy debuff is about the best thing I could have hoped for.

The changes to Titania are good (yay vacuum), but they still leave some issues.

A Razorwing build that uses her other powers goes through a lot of energy, and frequently switching between the two forms doesn't feel good (especially if you wind up spending a lot of your time outside of Razorwing trying to build up energy). She needs a means of regenerating her own energy, like Nezha and Nidus, and causing Tribute to do that is the most elegant solution, as it rewards players for using the power whether they care about the buffs or not (remember, they're group buffs). The only times Titania should be outside of Razorwing should be to preform utilitarian actions like hacking, or if something went wrong (because Razorwing is the whole point of Titania).

In that same vein, and while I'm sure someone else has already brought it up, the inability to switch to Operator form while in Razorwing is horrible. I get very upset every time I have to switch out of Razorwing, switch to Operator, switch back to Warframe, and then reactivate Razorwing (needing to reorienting myself at every perspective change).

Fullmoon buffing Razorwing Butterflies' damage is nice, but that's not really their purpose. The butterflies can take (or redirect) a lot of damage, but they can still die very fast. Some means of respawning or healing them would be more useful.

The Lantern change is great, but what Titania (who is effectively an Archwing) really needs is an Anti Air counter maneuver. I believe Lantern should draw fire from AA turrets and missiles, especially if we're going to be getting more of these open-world areas.

I've tested Diwata a bunch and it can deal a lot of damage, after you get your combo multiplier up. The problem with that is every defensive measure Titania has falls apart in melee. It doesn't matter how inaccurate your enemy is if they gun-butt you. I feel like there's a number of options here, from causing Razorwing Butterflies to increase the combo counter, to boosting Diwata's damage multiplier (a la Venka Prime), or even increasing Diwata's base damage but capping its multiplier (such as never going past 2x).

But if I had to pick one issue with Titania, not being able to switch to Operator form while in Razorwing is catastrophic. And as we progress further along and Operator form becomes more powerful/important, that's only going to be even more crippling.

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- Vruush Turrets onehit Titania, this needs to change.

- Doors don't open fast enough in regular missions for razorwing to fly through. The consequent staggering animation leads to loss of movement speed.

- Please let us cast her first ability wherever we want, not in close range to allies or enemies.  

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1 hour ago, Roboplus said:

But if I had to pick one issue with Titania, not being able to switch to Operator form while in Razorwing is catastrophic. And as we progress further along and Operator form becomes more powerful/important, that's only going to be even more crippling.

^^^ This.  It absolutely cripples her when trying to do anything to interact with the objective or when a boss fight requires operator.  It doesn't feel like I'm fighting a boss when playing Titania vs Eidolon.  I'm hopping between 3 different modes, one of which (foot) is merely a gateway and fighting latency and daring any number of bugs in the transition between each of the three modes.

Now with Fortuna's next update supposed to be "Ocean's Eleven but with more action" I'm not terribly optimistic about bringing Titania to a game mode where she'll probably need to use Operator mode and interact with any doorways or consoles.  The constant transitions become very jarring and disrupt the otherwise smooth flow of combat.

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On 2018-11-30 at 10:16 AM, Howtoshootgun said:

But anything other than say maybe a corpus tech or napalm does sooo little damage by comparison, even with mind freak, any halfway decent weapon should do the job better. I faintly remember actually being annoyed too at first when the passive came around and enemies started losing their guns - but the added cc from them straight up losing their ranged attacks is worth so much more than the pitiful damage they can do to each other, imho. Loki disarm is popular for a reason

@Kancelas "enemies barely do anything except standing there,¬†and because of that, i just use 3,¬†kill the enemies, and move on". Same, working as intended? Altho when i do it they randomly run around and shoot or smack each other feebly, i want that AI disabling chaos mod you all seem to have ūüė≤.Theyre not attacking you so you can mop em up more easily or you could just leave em if youre in a hurry. Its CC. If you ("you" as in anyone in general, peace) want room clearer damage take Saryn, Nyx is the wrong frame

I Understand its usefulness but it always seemed counterproductive to her Chaos since they're already not attacking Nyx. Why not just let them shoot each other in the face? Pitiful damage is pitiful damage as you so eloquently put it. Besides it only garnered value against those wielding weapons, but then you had to rely on Rng unless you're spamming Bolts or Chaos. If Nyx's passive wasn't so random I wouldn't be so annoyed with it. Loki disarm is popular because you have control over when and where to disarm enemies. And even if the MC'd target is not very strong it still provides a distraction to enemies. Like this new passive may be counterproductive to Absorb but we don't know yet.

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  I think Nyx's changes seem great for the most part, just a couple thoughts about the new mind control and psychic bolts in general.

  I've always felt Nyx just needed her augments added to her base abilities, barring chao's ofc. I feel the strongest about psychic bolts in general. I think it's always been a bit underrated/overlooked, especially since condition overload was introduced. With her augment in the equation, you have a guaranteed slash proc, rad proc and 10+ sec stun all in a nice spammable skill. This has many many uses, anything from opening windows for head shots, rad proccing like crazy for insanely cheap with no other form of radiation in a build, awesome set up for things like glaive/zakti combo's and other insane melee interactions, and just stun spam in general along with many other uses. I would hate to see all those interactions disappear in favor of something much less versatile. Nyx is and always has been an insanely good CC frame, and I believe psychic bolts has always been a huge part of it.

  That being said, I do like the addition of armor stripping to it, if it's an addition. I'd like to suggest either keeping the original skill as is and adding the armor strip to the augment along with the stun it provides, or flipping the interactions between the base skill and augment. Like maybe keep the changes, and then just add the rad and slash proc to the augment along with the stun.

  As for Mind Control that's a great change for it. I'd just like to suggest adding the damage type you're pumping into it to be added along with the new change. That way it would scale better into high level content. Considering that even with Absorb returning the types of damage it has absorbed, most mission enemy types have resistences to the types of damage they're dealing. With a change like this players could better adapt to the situation on all levels of play.

Outside of those thoughts I think it's a great rework for one of the best sleeper frames in the game. I sought out Nyx in all her forms the moment I first learned of her on my journey through WF. She's totally my favorite for almost any situation. Nice to see her getting some well deserved attention from the community. Hope you give these suggestions some thought.

Stoked she getting a pass on her sounds as well. Don't change chaos's sound please, maybe enchance it somehow. That echoing thhhhwwwummmp is pretty epic already ;)

 

 

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So, Titania's rework, to summarize, is a step in the right direction but is not enough by a wide margin as it doesn't address the following problems in a satisfying way:

- she's shoehorned as a "caster" frame by her stats , but she's got insufficent base energy paired with low defensive stats; the planned rework of tribute will mitigate this a bit by reducing from 4 to 1 cast per type of tribute the achievement of their full effect, still her base stats are too low for her role;

- Spellbind and Lantern send enemies into orbit negating all their benefits plus Spellbind requires a target to cast for self effect differently from any other frame with powers that can target self, enemies or allies that can simply cast without any target in the aiming reticule to cast on self;

Limit knockback from power launching the enemies away, let it be castable freely without targets under the aiming reticle.

- Tribute powers are largely ineffective due to: very limited fixed ranges, mediocre duration and being small debuffs that enemies outscale quite quickly with level increment, instead of significant buffs on Titania and allies, also the need to dive into an enemy mob to fish out the tribute soul after expending the energy cost for the power - no other frame has to go trough this bullS#&$ to activate a benefit from it's powers!

Needs groud up rework, all benefits are irrelevant for their cost and risk; if tribute souls must stay, have them give back energy or buff defenses, give overshields, slow enemies in the are, something to justify the extra hassle of having to collect them and some form of power interaction with the rest of her kit!

- Lantern sends enemies affected out of effective range more ofthen than not and proves time and again to be very ineffective at draving aggro / damaging enemies, also as it is it's got no right to being a separate power from Spellbind due to simply adding razorflyies to it. Fold it into Titania's #1 by casting razorflies on a spellbound target for differing effects depending on cast on self, cat on ally or cast on enemy! much more sinergy and utility in a single swoop.

- replace Lantern with a power that permits to summon and target Razorflies:

  > unaimed cast = cast on self: damage prevention, auto attack of enemies under a certain range or in melee similar to Nova's Null Star, added pickup of drops when in Razorwing

  > cast on ally = damage prevention and melee damage shield

  > cast on enemy = auto attack until a different target is chosen and ranged attack prevention on the target/targets depending on power range due to forcing them to melee

  > cast on spellbound enemy = Lantern with multiple casting increasing area and damage of the effect sensibly

- Razorwing it's Titania's iconic ability and her main attraction, all her kit is worthless compared to it and any change that worsen it will cause backlash; it's an ability that wraps up mobility, a form of limited defense and a pair of exalted weapons, one of which will get you killed, at the same time it loses a bunch of utilites for the limitations and energy cost it incurs and it's strictly a single target attack ultimate apart from the razorflies:

-> no [X] interactions while in Razorwing when archwing in both Poe and Orb Vallis permits to revive allies, interact and pick up datamasses or energy canisters, no other exalted weapons inhibit interactions like this; it's evidently a choice and not a system limitation and there's no acceptable excuse to leave things as they are!

-> innate 3m minimum vacuum forces to slam in the ground to pick up loot because it gets scaled down to 30 cm or less,

-> passive 25% miss chance not working anymore above a certain level due to enemy scaling accuracy being apparently subtractive instead of absolute plus not stacking with Dust to reach a 75% miss chance.. and RNG being what it is; no other warframe defensive power is so much of a coinflip!

-> the collision and hit box is noticeably bigger than Titania's actual in game model by at least a good 30%, with her archwing wings counted into it as well; it needs to be drastically reduced;

-> ground slams affect Razorwing even while more than a warframe height up in the air;

-> ancient, scorpion and moa harpoons can hit her 100% and drag her;

-> anti archwing attacks target and track Titania better than actual archwings and are a one shot kill on her, being tought to kick the players out of flight 100%, it means they autokill titania due to her archwing being integral and not a separate set of stats; many enemies fire anti air missiles at her with instakill effects even when she's on foot;

-> no lock on warnings in razorwing = any attack coming from outside field ov view means a downed Titania;

-> any surface behaves like it's covered in glue, sticking her and destroying her movement speed and momentum

-> Diwata is an heavy blade but suffer staggers and knockdowns during melee combo, also it tends to lock on nearest enemy and not on enemies under targeting reticule;

-> loss of momentum when coming out of Razorwing, with Titania forced to do a rough landing with relative animation lock, usually in the middle of a group of enemies, instead of landing beyond them due to momentum;

-> razorflies dying like mosquitos to anything with no way of replenishing them without recasting Razorwing and dumping eventual buffs from energy conversion and growing power;

->razorflies aggroing things well outside radar range from times to times for no apparent reason, leaving Razorwing bereft of their sacrificial shield and making any form of stealth impossible;

-> razorflies getting lost and removed when outside of an indetermined range from Titania, resulting in Razorwing losing its razorflies contingent just from travelling trough the maps;

-> mediocre base and dash speed in Razorwing, tying it to Razorwing Blitz added a mod and energy tax on top of all other Razorwing costs, the augment should be integral to Titania;

-> razorwing controls are ok as they are, with altitude remaining fixed unless pressing the spacebar, it simplyfies flight in enclosed spaces with limited ceilings by a good degree, please don't change it with actual skywing controls, they are utterly inadequate for Titania.

Suggested changes: adress the above issues, separate Razorflies as a castable power as her #3 or #2, that would already help to screen her from antiaircraft missiles, integrate Razorwing Blitz or at least increase her flight speed to a fast frame full dash and reduce her energy upkeep costs, don't touch her flight control scheme!

SEPARATE THIS THREAD IN TWO SEPARATE WORKSHOPS, ONE FOR NIX AND ONE FOR TITANIA INSTEAD OF MUCKING THINGS UP

https://www.google.com/search?q=mucking+things+up&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-b-ab

Edited by Ikusias
added last remark
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@[DE]Rebecca Just remove the thing from Titania's Lantern that enemies can fly off to the abyss of the void when you just push them up.

Just make them stay on the floor or have like maximum height they can fly up and I'm happy

Also these 2 changes... meh? What is the point to have 4 buffs and have one way to gain them? I mean... What if octavia gained all buffs just for jumping or shooting? What if Equinox could cast all of her buffs and debuffs in one skill? This feels weird to get so many stuff from one ability. I hope you know what i mean. Maybe make it like this:

- Titania takes buffs from enemies but they are diffrent for every ability that hit the target. Enemies hit by 1st skill give this buff, enemies hit by 3rd gives this buff, enemies hit by 4th give this buff. If enemies was affected by all of the abilities it gives all of the buffs. I would like this idea V_V

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Honestly never played nyx so much cuz she is too... not mobile for me.

But when I played her I focused on her 2nd ability. So im really happy it stays. I like new abilities etc.

So I have nothing against I think V_V

- And maybe make ppl able to walk during the ultimate? Its just my thing! I know there is an augment! OR can you make us able to use operator while ultimate is on? I would like to run around and kill some enemies ūüėĄ OR let nyx use 1-2-3 abilites while in ultimate.

Just my idea, I know it isnt nessesary. So dont get angry at me ūüėõ

Likes the changes tho. Thank you DE, very cool

‚̧ԳŹ

 

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To start on positives, I like the ideas of your changes.  I like that the 2 we don't have to cast more than her actual energy pool to get the buffs, I like Lantern moving around less and having more of them is just a pleasantly surprisingly bonus.  With multiple lanterns, assuming they have a decent range with at a balanced build (positive if not the highest stats in range, strength duration and efficiency), would actually allow for a beguiling lantern build to actually work!  Buffing melee damage for the whole team and creating a unique build and play style?  Yes please!  This makes me actually excited to try out my favorite Warframe again and not just do the traditional Razorwing build!  And speaking of: vacuum in Razorwing?  YESSSSSSSSSSSS PLEEEEEEEEASE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!   

However, I just don't think the changes are quite there yet.  The actual buffs her 2 provides are 3/4 of the time still just not worth it, and if lantern is allowed to move around even a tiny bit, and it goes somewhere useless you'll have to manually reset all 4 of your lanterns, or simply go without 1/4 of your ability's effectiveness.  And this issue is compounded by her lackluster energy pool, but we'll get to that.

Now...the 2.  Assuming of course these stats were actually any good in Warframe, the accuracy debuff and damage reflection debuff are in direct opposition to each other.  If you are making the enemies less accurate, you are reflecting less damage.  But the damage reflection itself, even if it did decent damage through both your and the enemy's damage reduction, simply cannot be supported by Titania's fragility.  On top of this, the most dangerous enemy to Titania, Bombards of all varieties, straight up ignore accuracy debuffs as the rockets will track you in circles for days.  In short, the accuracy debuff is meh but I guess on theme, but the damage reflection is flat out useless, please replace with something more useful.  The companions buff now buffing the razor butterfly damage is okay, probably won't mean much in the long run, but at least the design of this ability now affects something in Razorwing, which Titania should be spending most of her time.  All in all, I will still probably never cast her 2 on anything that doesn't give the slow aura buff unless I'm stacking Razorwing Blitz, and her 1 is better at that anyway because it's cheaper and doesn't need an enemy target.  My suggestion: everything except the slow aura scrap and replace, or you simply just scrap them, and have the slow aura be better and larger and maybe drop from any enemy only a percentage of the time based on power strength?  I don't know, just an idea.

Closing notes: please give Titania the same treatment as Mag and buff her energy pool.  Even without using your 2 at all, between repeatedly casting 1 and 3, the latter now 4 times as often, and the drain on her 4, Titania is a caster style Warframe with a really really low energy.  Especially since her best augment, Razorwing Blitz, encourages spamming her abilities to keep that buff rolling, this is really problematic.  My build currently always runs a rank 4 fleeting, a rank 4 streamline, and a primed flow to compensate for this problem.  And a better energy pool would free up one of these mod slots for something more interesting, and as stated before, I would love Beguiling Lantern to become its own build rather than every Titania running Razorwing builds because it's the only worthwhile and consistent ability.

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