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[DE]Rebecca

Nyx & Titania Dev Workshop

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Dust - keep as-is:it reduces enemy accuracy by 50%!

Thorns - increase to 50% of damage reflected back to the attacker!

 

Kinda feel like Dust is nerfing Thorns ??

If you nerf the accuracy you nerf the damages you can reflect and it's kinda counterproductive

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vor 11 Minuten schrieb BeeWhyOhBee:

why not wait for it to be out first? 

Because those Workshops are there to talk about the suggested changes beforehand, duh.

Also, no one wants those changes just to be MOAR DEEPS.

So far this thread seems to be concerned overall with pretty reasonable points about usability and not (just) damage.

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1 hour ago, [DE]Rebecca said:
Spoiler

Nyx

Nyx is one of our earliest released Warframes, making her appearance in the Closed Beta version of Warframe! Since that was more than 5 years ago, we are taking the time with this rework to also completely re-do her audio as well. Still rooted in what we know, we'll be updating her sound library to 2018 standards. Your ears are in for a treat!

Now, onto the powers.

New Passive: Enemies can't seem to truly target Nyx and all receive an accuracy debuff against her.

Nyx is receiving a new passive overall, the random disarm was on-theme, but feedback over time has always slanted toward 'new passive, please!'.

Mind Control:

BEFORE:
Nyx picks a single target within Range and brings them to the Tenno side for a given Duration. The problem this had was the target never really felt... powerful.  

AFTER:
Nyx still picks a single target within Range and brings them to the Tenno side for a given Duration - but now she can multiply the damage output of that enemy by her own hand!!

The target will have a 4-second wind up period to absorb your weapon damage which is on a multiplier to enhance its OUTPUT damage. For example only (numbers not final): every 2500 damage = 1.5x damage output of the target
We've also included better 'follow Nyx' behaviour to have the target stay with her.  

This feels really engaging in practice and adds just a bit more activity to your Nyx play - your targets become more valuable and you get to focus on weapon gameplay in the 4 second window to really pump them up! A Nyx should always choose their victim wisely.

Psychic Bolts:

BEFORE:
Nyx launches a cluster of force bolts at enemies, using telekinesis to adjust flight paths and seek nearby targets.
The Number of Bolts and Damage dealt, including a Radiation Status chance made up the entirety of this power.t wasn't unique enough and on its own, it didn't offer enough in high level missions.

AFTER:
This is no longer a flat damage ability, but it is now a debuff. All enemies hit lose a % of defenses (values for Shield/Armor have 20/40/60/80% of defenses removed) for a short duration (5/7/9/11 seconds), making them easier to kill / kill each other when combined with Chaos! Infested will receive a slowing behaviour (not on the same % curve as defenses, still tweaking) + deactivation of Ancient's auras.
We will be doing a presentation clean up as well for more of a 'Psychic' feel in the Telekinesis.
 


Absorb:

BEFORE:
Nyx absorbs all incoming damage and channels that collected energy into an explosive radial discharge that deals Magnetic damage. Magnetic Damage doesn't always perform well, and a single damage type doesn't really feel like an 'Absorb'.

AFTER:
Nyx absorbs all incoming damage and channels that collected energy into an explosive radial discharge - but now we've made the damage type output dynamic based on incoming damage types. If it is fed in, it feeds out!

Absorb is a very unique power - when Augmented it allows for a completely different kind of play. Alone, Absorb gives Nyx immortality in a pinch and can CC with knockdown, but now we've just added another edge in giving it dynamic Damage.

 

As someone who plays Nyx a lot, I'm looking forward to testing these changes. I'm optimistic, but can't really say too much yet, e.g. a big part of the problem with her Mind Control wasn't the ability but the enemy AI, so I'll want to test these first.

Just one thing upfront: Please please please, replace Absorb's knockdown with a ragdoll (at least without the Augment, if that's a problem). It's been a gripe of mine since forever, and I think I'm not the only one having suggested that change.

Also: any comment on why Gear/Emotes aren't working anymore during Assimilate?

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Sorry to say that, but I think these changes are not really good.
There are two things in Warframe that I've learned in all the years:
1. In Warframe you want to feel powerful and fast like a Space Ninja.
2. A dead enemy is the best enemy.
Both things are not given with these rework attempts.
I absolutely don't get the point of playing these two frames (even after the rework), when you can play Octavia instead to buff the whole team, regen energy for all and do a crap ton of damage at the same time. Same goes for Equinox: buff your team, heal and do also a crap ton of damage at the same time.
Not to mention Gara with her insane CC, protection and damage abilities which are synergizing perfectly.
You get my point here...
Both Nyx and Titania are caster frames. And they are both bad at it. They are clunky and the team don't really benefit from the casts. This is why almost nobody plays these two frames.
Who really wants to play a frame that is not beneficial to the team or feels clunky in a Game where speed and movement is everything? Name a person. I will wait.
I think even Inaros as a non caster frame does better CC than these two frames together + he is almost unkillable.
--
And please don't get me wrong:
I really love Warframe! It is my favorite Game and I appreciate the work of the devs, but this is pure nonsense to me.

Edited by Qamelion
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4 minutes ago, Anthraxicus said:

You misunderstood the whole part I thing. The part I does not refer to the changes to Nyx and Titania, but to Fortuna. It is Fortuna which is receiving more updates, with the fights with those 4 Giant Spiders scattered around the map, hence the part II.

Quote

Stay tuned to Fortuna: Part II notes for full information on Nyx and Titania!

I should have phrased it a bit better, but this is what I was referring to. It at the very least implies that this workshop is incomplete in regards to all of the changes.

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Sweeet! My favorite mind-twisting queen shall rise again!

Spoiler

nyx_s_army_by_josea302-d7hzked.jpg

 -- Mirbersc

 

Both warframes were already good on their own and I'm very glad to see that both frames receive their so needed QoL-treatment without altering their themes and kits that much.

However, Titania's Thorn could still get more attention (as well as Unairu's Void Spines). Just a reminder that the game still suffers from unablanced enemy scaling where not only armour scales up to absurd values, but also enemy health's scaling surpasses damage increase way too fast, so at some point reflecting enemy's damage back results in a mosquito bite instead of «just a flesh wound». It may work against <Lv.20 enemies, but anything higher than that is just not worth it. Amplifying reflected damage by (at least) x2 would somewhat work out.

 

 

4 minutes ago, (PS4)Elvenbane said:

It's not something I can rely on. Instead of spending 4 seconds shooting the enemy that I've already taken out of the fight, I can use those 4 seconds to clear the room. After those 4 seconds, it's not like I can play differently because my super useful mind controlled pal has my back, I'm just going to continue shooting whatever moves before it has a chance to shoot me.

I'm happy to have another target for enemies to focus on, but that's really as far as it goes...if the duration was greatly increased, or there was some other way to keep a particularly useful enemy controlled I might feel differently.

If there are plans for the augment, this would be the place and time to mention them...

It's not like you have to use Mind Control on the very first/every enemy you see (or using a warframe with purpose of support and CC with the intention to be a damage-dealer if you're trigger-happy): you see an opportunity -- you use it ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Nitpicking time: 4 seconds of continuous fire with fully-modded and, possibly, Rivened gun on top of the enemy's damage is a helluva damage :clem:

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The titania changes look pretty good, but dust still seems like the only buff thats worth it. While the the enemy has so much more health than the warframes, no Thorns type effect will ever do enough damage to be noticeable. The entangle is ok, but I've personally never found slowing enemies to be useful or fun. The companion damage is ok, but I don't pay that much attention to the companions attacking and would rather have something else.

I'd like the thorns and fullmoon to change to something that helps my teammates. For example I would much rather Thorns CC melee enemies atracking both me and teammates in range. And it would be really fun if Full Moon just made Razorwing butterflies when you or teammates were damage.

Basically I want tribute to buff my allies and myself. Right now it only feels like two of the tributes do that, and one of them isn't even impactful because of the health differences between warframes and enemies.

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1 minute ago, TGDM said:

I should have phrased it a bit better, but this is what I was referring to. It at the very least implies that this workshop is incomplete in regards to all of the changes.

It is incomplete. The numbers aren't final yet and anything can change until release. But the part II refers to Fortuna.

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Just now, --Banshee said:

Where are the Garuda changes Pablo hinted at?

wait are they gonna change Garuda still? i think its fine 😮 

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Speaking of making the frame less of hassle razorflies need to either be invincible, or refreshable in razorwing. 

Titania wants to be in razorwing and she has an augment that is somewhat mandatory if you want to compete with other dps frames that makes you want to stay in razorwing even more, having to refresh the ability is immensely counter intuitive since the aggro draw from razorflies is the main thing that keeps her alive. 

 

Either make the razorflies immortal or make picking up a tribute totem revive one razorfly

Edited by Wet_Tenties
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For Titania I think I'd still honestly like to see 

  • Spellbound & Lantern being folded into a single charge ability because visually they are very samey slightly less so mechanically. That frees up space for a completely new and unique ability. Essentially Press to Spellbind and hold to Lantern. 
  • Tribute I'd kinda just like to see this be a completely different ability. I like the shadow aspect, it's interesting but the over all ability just feels just not great and could stand to be something else. Bonus points if the shadow mechanic stays in for flavor.

I would love to see Titania get some sort of AoE ability themed around Fairy Mushroom Rings that had some sort of utility function. 

Titania also really needs some way to refresh her Razor flies without needing to pop in and out of Razorwing and I'd love to see the ability to interact with objects while in Razorwing. Since the #1 rule of Titania club is Always be in Razorwing. 

 

Edited by Oreades
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Nyx thoughts:

Passive is a complete nerf. The old passive was fine just make it more reliable by making it more reliable to proc (by making it effected by power strength or something simple).
Mind Control is fine, but standing there for 4 seconds shooting the target seems ineffective and unengaging.
Chaos, no changes are fine
Assimilate, as long as I can walk around for 1 energy a second with 600 energy and be invulnerable I am fine with it. The changes seem pretty inventive actually.
 

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29 minutes ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

AFTER:
Lantern can now be cast on up to 4 targets with better 'tethered' victims. You will be able to 'explode' all targets by holding the Lantern cast.

Can we also get her to be able to cast her 3 on enemies affected by her 1?

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hace 1 hora, God_is_a_Cat_Girl dijo:

That moment when you get the ancient healers which won't benefit from the changes, and they can be unrealible because the AI barely follows the player. Nyoro~n.

 

 

So, the same but it accumulates different damage types? If the same, meh.
I'd say that's a nice change, but alone, not really since you lose Absorb charge very easily (or your team kill every close and you just stood there doing nothing for... almost no reason at all). I'd say it could be better if we could use part of the charged amount to fire a projectile with small AoE, this way she could defend target and still have an offensive method based on the absorbed damage. Kinda like Garuda in a way, but instead of using extra energy to multiply the damage you have, Nyx just charges the projectile with absorbed damage (so you can fire but keep what you want for the radial). That way it becomes less of "I'll stay here waiting to charge and HOPE I don't lose the charge", to "protecc but also atacc".

this please,

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I'm seeing a lot of hatred for the thorns aura because Titania is squishy but... Isn't it an aura, so it also reflects if your nearby allies are hit? 

Not talking about if damage reflection is good or not, just that the aura proper proccing isn't that dangerous for Titania.

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I really like the Nyx changes, but Titania needs a lot more than this; her buffs are bad and dont scale, her Lantern effect should probably be combined with Spellbind since both make enemies float and make room for ability to make her less prone to instantly die.

Vaccum while in her 4 is nice tho, will make those Plague Star event runs more bearable.

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Okay, but Tribute still sucks because the stats are not moddable (unless that is also being changed)

And even with this rework, Titania does not have a role. She does stuff, that's for sure, but that is all it is... stuff. There is no pizzaz to her kit in a team setting, the only reason to go out of your way to play as Titania is for Razorwing.

On 2018-10-19 at 8:19 PM, DrBorris said:

Proposal:

  • Make Tribute's buffs affected by mods first of all, mods are there for a reason.
  • Only need one enemy to get max buff (as was proposed)
  • Reduce the base duration 40 seconds (moddable) for all buffs.
  • Have the auras exist independently for all allies (an individual aura for each ally) within affinity range of Titania.
    • To clarify, this would have it so in addition to Titania having an aura of the buffs, allies will have their own. So that Excalibur that is 20 meters away from Titania will have their own Dust, Thorn, etcetera aura around them.
  • Allow for Auras to stack with diminishing returns. So if an enemy is within the Dust aura of two allies, that enemy will be slowed more than if they were only in range of one Thorn aura.
    • This will give a tangible bonus for the group sticking together.
  • Set all ranges to a consistent (and moddable) 20 meters.
  • Add a new buff for Eximus enemies -insert creative name here-: Increase status chance by 40%

The important part being that Tribute makes independent auras for everybody in affinity range of Titania, making her an "unseen support" for the team.

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3 minutes ago, Julian_Skies said:

I'm seeing a lot of hatred for the thorns aura because Titania is squishy but... Isn't it an aura, so it also reflects if your nearby allies are hit? 

Not talking about if damage reflection is good or not, just that the aura proper proccing isn't that dangerous for Titania.

The issue is you are going to die before the enemies do. Even then, Dust kind of counter acts Thorn so.

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      So, for the most part, Nyx's idea proposals seem okay, but not really gonna push her into real greatness.

 

  • The reworked kit seems very dependent on if Mind Control will actually let an enemy kill other enemies, a thing Nyx needs to be able to do, while also being interactive, and it totally has that potential. I'm just uncertain that the numbers will be good enough to work at high levels.
  • Her 2, if it can scale with strength to completely strip armor in a cast, seems like it'll be a great tool to enable enemies to kill one another, if not, it'll flounder about a LOT more, and just be a mediocre tool. Either way, making it a tool instead of a damage ability seems like the way to go.
  • Her 3 could really use the bonus of pacifying enemies if there isn't an enemy nearby to shoot, as Chaos'd enemies randomly shooting you again because nothing's stepped into its field of view makes the ability so inconsistent.
  • Her 4, even though it got buffed, is still a very slow ability that rewards standing in roughly the same area letting enemies slowly plink at you for what ends up being chip damage for anything that matters. (Yes, I know about stance movement shenans with assimilate, that doens't really make it much better.), and doesn't really interact with the rest of her kit at all. It just feels there to be there. I'd love to see it be an actual finisher, building up a bunch of damage by doing what nyx does thematically instead of standing there watching enemies shoot you for half an hour, and then releasing it all to wipe the floor with people. At present, it's just outclassed in almost everything it wants to do, even augmented. Tanks outtank it, DPS outdamages it, Frost outdefends it, and all of those frames get to keep their mobility and energy regen.
     

Overall, a good nudge in the right direction, but missing a bit more maintenence to really get the engine running, so to speak. Looking forward to testing it out.
 

And now we get to Titania. To be frank, I don't think any of these buffs matter in the slightest.

  • Tribute is still godawful. The buffs themselves are so bad that you could instantly get all 4 buffs from one cast, and have it be stackable, and it'll still be the worst buff ability in the game. Also, if you don't recieve the buff instantly upon cast and still gotta go pick it up, it'll be just as bad.
  • Dust is the closest buff that matters at all, everything else doesn't make it worth it.
  • Thorns doesn't seem to negate the damage it throws back at people, and, in the same vein why mind control/chaos was so mediocre, enemies do terrible amounts of damage to other enemies, including themselves.
  • Entangle could lock enemies in place, and it still wouldn't be worth it unless it also stunned them. Slowing enemies down by itself isn't a good thing (see Pacify with equinox's 3 augment, which also reduces damage, and also is a channeled aoe, and STILL isn't worth it)
  • Full Moon buffs the damage of companions that will probably never have relevant damage anyway because of the AFK/semi-AFK potential they can have if they do, so Honestly i think it'll mostly be for Razorwing butterflies (Hey, some synergy that isn't her 4 augment, at least) and that buff will be marginal
  • Lantern is still mostly a wonkier version of Resonator that now stays perfectly still, so... maybe a bit better? It's still just a "It's there" ability that feels redundant with spellbind already ccing a large group, and can also give status immunity.
  • Razorwing having vacuum is a nice touch, will make it much easier to stay in that form (which you want to do all the time, because right now she's still not much of a warframe when she's out of it.)

Overall, much less anticipating these changes, as I don't think they'll help her with her problems (namely, that her kit only exists right now to proc blitz on Razorwing, and give her some duration of status immunity, as the rest of the stuff doesn't really affect the battlefield in ways that are useful). Biggest buff is probably the dust one, but I don't really think it'll be enough to make her a great frame.

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There's a few problems here, mostly revolving around Nyx's 4 and Titania's 2.

Mainly, enemy damage is several orders of magnitude below enemy EHP. A mid-high level Heavy Gunner will kill most frames in seconds, but takes hundreds or even thousands of it's own bullets to die. This clearly illustrates the problem with Absorb: Nyx is bleeding out her own energy and ability to act or play the game to return said damage back to enemies. Returning said damage is frankly useless, as returning 5 or 20 or 50 Gorgon shots does not matter when it takes hundreds to down the enemy and Nyx wasted her own energy pool to do this. Absorb needs a actual rework because of that even if we ignore the "Nyx decides to stop playing the space ninja game with cool movement to sit in her bubble, completely immobile".

This brings me to Tribute. Tribute is a very poor ability. It has 2 relevant buffs, and due to no scaling and poor numbers I can only barely count Entangle as 'relevant'. Going through them in order:

Dust: it's good. There's not much to say, it's a accuracy debuff with decent range you keep up forever. It's the only remotely redeeming feature of this ability.

Thorns: This is a waste of energy with no redeeming qualities thanks to how poorly made damage reflection is in Warframe. This ties in to Absorb: enemies have orders of magnitude higher EHP compared to their damage. And damage reflection in Warframe still deals all the damage to the Warframe, just then also reflects some back. This makes the buff completely useless, as the Heavy Gunner or Bombard or Tech hitting the squishy, MAYBE couple thousand EHP frame might take .1% of their EHP as damage back while Titania is smeared across the wall.

Entangle: This is the barely relevant one! A high uptime radial slow sounds nice. A impotent, low range, unmoddable slow does not. No points for guessing which camp this factors into, as it turns out a 25% slow with measly 10m range is not that good when most enemies have guns, the ability to fire them, and the ability to not be constantly hugging Titania to taste this aura.

Full Moon: This is a companion damage buff, in a game where most companions do crap damage, on a frame where the only good ability forces your companions into a pocket dimension where they cannot fight. It buffs Razorfly damage, but Razorfly damage is a joke and the Razorflies die within seconds of being summoned.

 

Both of these abilities have glaring root problems that have not been addressed. Buffing the numbers does not fix the problems, and does not even bandaid the problems due to how bad the abilities are to begin with.

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I feel like the issues with Titania aren't really being addressed

Right now her biggest strengths are in razorwing (mostly for boss fights like sortie Lephantis, and also for it's mobility on the plains with augment) and her bullet jump passive.

 

Her energy pool is small despite being a warframe who's meant to constantly cast all her powers on enemies, along with long cast animations that take two-hands to use.

Her 1 and 3 are both cc and compete with each other for utility. Her 1 alone has this weird "it makes enemies float, but it also disarms them" which means no one ever notices (or even knows) it has a disarming effect because it is two cc effects competing.

her 2 isn't just the fact that it's something to spam, but that the buffs it provides just aren't good. Like all of them are kind of just mediocre in utility. Also the thorns still falls behind the issue of "enemy power levels aren't equal in offense/defense making damage reflection generally bad". In fact that's kind of why Nyx was getting her rework.

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I hope the damage ramp up doesn't mean there is an energy consumption ramp up on Absorb.

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