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[DE]Rebecca

Nyx & Titania Dev Workshop

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Nyx

Not much to say other than it looks good. Curious to see how her 1 Aug will work with her new 1. Psychic Bolts finally having a place in her kit is appreciated. Absorb should be pretty incredibly powerful if you have some vaguely aware teammates.

Titania

The Thorns tribute is still fairly useless. Enemies just have too much hp and do too little damage to make damage reflection worthwhile. It'd need to be hanging out around probably 20x damage reflection or more to be worthwhile.

Rest of the changes look solid to me. Kinda miss being able to move Lantern targets around like mobile CC zones, but around 33% of the time they just get hit by allies and ping-ponged all over the place, so being able to have multiple of them out at a time is quite appreciated.

Would have liked to see Tribute become an off-hand cast and her casting speed sped up a bit in general as it is kinda egregiously slow across the board.

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1 hour ago, TGDM said:

I guess we'll have to wait until Part II to get a better understanding of the scope of these changes, but it doesn't really feel like these frames are being revisited/reworked in mind of how the game has shifted in the past few years. The Part I changes seem like they're just reinforcing the old and outdated aspects of their abilities.

Agreed which is why I worry anymore Vauban changes will essentially be the same thing, since the recent changes have been meh to not good.  I've begun to think there's a disconnect that's starting to form between the developers and us as players and the way we play the game.  We'll have to wait and see for the final numbers, but I'll continue to be on the fence until proven otherwise.

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On 2018-11-28 at 7:20 PM, [DE]Rebecca said:

-snip-

Let's do a thorough overview here:

--- NYX ---

Mind Control
Sounds interesting. I like how the optimal useage also (I presume?) works as an antitrolling behaviour, because the target will likely die after the duration, with all that damage you likely will put into it. However, I'm not entirely sure if that damage-ratio is all that great. If it turns out to be weak, then I'd propose that its damage-boost directly was based on the damage you dealt. For example, a quarter of the damage you deal is now added to its DPS. So if you deal 10k damage to it in that 4 second window, it will now have its DPS increase by 2,5k. Just a thought.

Psychic Bolts
Sounds like a decent start, but I'd like to keep its raw damage too, so it can keep its niche useage on lower level stuff too. Also, while it's neat that it lowers defenses, defenses are something that often can be ignored or stripped away. So, how about this; When attacking non-protected enemies (i.e. when shields are gone, or armor is completely stripped, or the enemy HAS no defense like on Infested), it functions as a plain damage-boost. Particularly for the Infested that'd be much better, because the slowdown kinda works AGAINST Chaos, as you want them to run up and fight each other asap.

Absorb
Would be nice to give it an active component, even when unaugmented. Like, allow us to cast her other abilities. Maybe let us use SOME of the absorbed damage to shoot out psychic energy on enemies you aim at (like a beam or whatever). Another neat thing would be to, if holdcasting Mind Control while in Absorb/Assimilate, to let us MANUALLY control the Mind Control-target!

Also, I hope the new passive is disabled during Absorb/Assimilate?

 

--- TITANIA ---

 

Spellbind
I feel this ability could also get a small look at. Mainly something that gives her better kit-synergy. Things like:

  • Can be cast near loot or Tribute-souls, causing her to pick them up from a distance! (PERFECT synergy with Razorwing)
  • Spellbound enemies float in towards any Lantern-area
  • Holdcast to cast the ability centerred on herself. To cast this ability on herself (for the status immunity and to get a stack of Razorwing Blitz) is impossible if you are in midair... and you know, she is often in Razorwing?

Tribute
Overall, I really like the massive toning down of spam-need here. Thanks for that! As for the effects;

  • Dust - Is fine, yes.
  • Thorns - Even if it was 500%, it'd still be useless, sadly. Reflection damage only works when damage is more equal between enemies and players, which is CERTAINLY not the case in Warframe. Like, not even close. If it did something else on TOP, like, the damage reflected is also damage NOT TAKEN for the Warframe, then it'd be rather nice (even if the Reflection-damage is still rather pointless)
  • Entangle - 25% is nice... but not at 10 meters when Titania is usually up in the sky, far more than 10 meters from the enemies. If it had vastly increased range (like 35 meters, more akin to the othe auras), even if the slowdown was toned down to, say, 20%, I'd like it A LOT more.
  • Full Moon - This is nice, especially buffing Razorflies... well, if Razorflies damage was relevant that is (more to that later). Buffing it to 35 meters aura range would be nice too, and would feel more consistent with Dust and Thorns.

About Tribute in general, I think it could also get some more interesting facets to it. Like:

  • Picking up a soul regenerates X% of the Energy spent on casting Tribute. This could greatly alleviate (or even sustain, depending on the values?) the energy-problems for her Razorwing-useage!
  • Maybe make it a one-handed cast?
  • The damage-reduction effect on the direct cast, maybe that could scale with Ability Strength (up to a cap ofc)?

Lantern
Multicast? Tether?!OH YES! Can't wait to try that out! I can still see some more QoL and synergies for it though:

  • Damage dealt to the target is now stored 'til the end (like how it works on Nyx's Mind Control targets)
  • The razorfly damage radius increased to 6 meters (from 2.5 meters). It's so tiny right now that it's basicly pointless, sadly
  • Allow it to be cast on enemies affected by Spellbind, please?
  • I mentioned it could maybe attract enemies affected by Spellbind, but maybe slowly drag in loot too? With the suggestion of letting Spellbind pick up loot and Tribute-souls from afar, Lantern would make a lovely gathering-point for that purpose.
  • Augment: Please, let it increase ALL damage sources, not just MELEE! It's a REALLY limitted augment as it is.

Razorwing
Innate Vacuum sounds REALLY good (although... Universal Vacuum could've solved this and a lot more too *cough cough* hehe), and really looking forward to that. But it still has a bunch of crippling issues and such:

  • Razorflies' damage right now is really lackluster. How about it scaling with her Diwata modding? Base damage of the Razorflies would VERY likely need to be toned down for that though. This would give the new Full Moon extra usefulness, for certain.
  • Maybe Razorflies both contribute to and benefit from the melee combo counter? Might be pointless in Melee 3.0, but worth a thought.
  • Killed Razorflies could maybe respawn one by one after a little moment of Titania not getting hurt (natural synergy with her CC+evasion-kit!), affected by Ability Duration (more duration = faster respawn)
  • Press reload (default R) for Titania to order her Razorflies to attack a specific target, maybe? More control is always nice.
  • Ability Range now affects Razorflies' travelling speed, maybe?
  • It would be SO NICE if Titania could revive allies and interact with objects and such (like elevator buttons, life support etc, all except maybe hacking?) while in Razorwing. I understand this might be a tehcnical programming issue (with the whole "AW-rigging" and whatnot)
  • Maybe let Titania jump out with the Operator (i.e. use Transference) while in Razorwing?

 

 

OVERALL

For both Nyx and Titania, all the proposed dev-suggestions are overall babysteps in the right direction (although Titania's Thorns still need a more thorough lookover - Its effect just doesn't fit the game's scaling whatsoever). It's all good, but in my opinion they still need a whole lot more for that "perfected polish" (which I felt has so far only been given to Nezha - THAT was a well done and thorough rework!).

Edited by Azamagon
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2 hours ago, (PS4)Elvenbane said:

Or I can just point my weapon elsewhere as that will be far more effective than shooting the mind control target...

Who uses Mind Control for damage? It's one enemy, it's useful to take a tougher enemy unit out of the fight, you're not going to rely on them to maybe kill something. Does this change give even less reason to waste a slot on the Mind Control augment? A straight-up defense buff and maybe drawing attention away from Nyx would be preferable. Doesn't seem like something I would use...unless shooting the Mind Control target makes them grow larger, that would at least be amusing.

It doesn't make sense to me that you would shoot the mind control target to buff it anyway, antimatter drop particle, okay, creature, nope?!?

The passive, psychic bolts, and absorb changes sound interesting...

True. I don't actually see the benefit of taking over an enemy even if he can awkwardly deal actual damage/kill a few enemies. Even if it's an Eximus or Ancient. If you have a weapon that manages to make the minion do significant damage, then why not just kill everything with that instead? I think the whole taking over an enemy thing is flawed, especially since you basically do that as AOE CC on her 3 which is her best ability unless you just don't want to die and use her 4. It's a psychic frame so the possibilities should be endless, even if you want to make her a defensive/cc (lolwarframe2018) frame. As it stands she's still just going to be okay at making enemies not shoot their target sometimes and not dying at 5mm per second walking speed (giga brain mod slot usage).

All the changes are "good" and functional but since she's getting reworked I was hoping something more extreme for both frames, like Saryn's rework (and maybe Nezha). Nyx and Titania need it much more but it just looks like bandaid number adjustments instead of reworks. Psychic Bolts sounds decent I guess if you don't want to use a weapon, which is ironic considering the Mind Control change encourages using good weapons in the first place. I like those kind of abilities however so I'm not complaining unless it shoots like 5 random targets and depletes all your energy instead of being actually useful. Btw, the effect it has on infected should probably be pasted on Mag's thing that does nothing against Infested. But I guess that makes Nyx's 2 just a worse version of that.

 

Also the reflect buff Titania still has is also a bit ironic as well considering Nyx's mind control was changed for the very reason that enemy damage is useless when turned against them.

Edited by myuushii
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1 hour ago, Amazerath said:

Mind Control (Nyx):

The damage changes seem good, but without speed I don't feel like it's going to make the power more enjoyable to use. Remember we already have access to highly powerful and mobile allies (specters). Mind Control should offer something better or at the very least more interesting then a specter. Khora has her own unique kavat. Shouldn't Nyx have her own unique phychic specter?

Psychic Bolts (Nyx):

You should probably also make the affected enemies become priority targets for enemies affected by Chaos. That would increase the synergy between the two powers considerably.

 

In a previous post about Nyx's rework I propose the ability to hold the button allowing Nyx to summon her Mind Controlled Target at will which helps solve the problems with enemy AI and movement. I also mentioned Nyx having elective ability to hold Mind Control on a target by using Garuda's Aim / Not Aim mechanic while pressing the key.  This will help pet oriented Nyx as she will not have to find a new target and pump up it's damage every minute or less.

Her Chaos already produces high threat levels on enemies affected by it. This is mostly a simple distance check between targets. If you change this interaction it could cause more confusion controlling her threat. Like when the priority target dies suddenly enemies turn on you when you were previously safe.

All Nyx's abilities actually synergize naturally. It's just after years of power creep and no need to go higher levels a frame with 4 CC abilities doesn't seem needed. When you can still afford to take damage; dead enemies are better than CC'd ones.

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The Nyx changes look pretty good, it's more interactive and seem to give more team support. However, that passive seems counter intuitive in regards to her 3 and 4. Maybe you could make it so mind controlled enemies have a chance to drop energy orbs on death.  The Titania buffs need a bit more work though, the auras are still somewhat lack luster especially when it comes to the deflection. But now I'm waiting for WUKONG CHANGES 😶

Edited by (XB1)Adaptabilty
New infi

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Also please make Chaos have enemies actually target each other better. Right now I still seem to be priority for majority of the enemies in the room, ignoring each other while focusing on me.

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3 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

Razorwing:

 


BEFORE:
A lot of bonking to pick up loot.

AFTER:
Razorwing will simply receive a Vacuum to make acquiring loot, energy, etc easier. Remember - less of a hassle!

 

These changes have felt pretty great in early testing, but of course are subject to change. If you've been watching our streams you may know most of this already, but we wanted to write it out for everyone to check out! Stay tuned to Fortuna: Part II notes for full information on Nyx and Titania!

Any chance these can be looked at as well while you're 'fixing' her...

  • Her clipping/interaction with environmental items, she seems to clip on things she's not actually next to, almost like the 'clipping mask' isn't scaling with titania and after the recent changes to remove impact damage when in razorwing her camera seems 'go outside' the environment if you get too close.  You also have issues with lifts where she can fall through them as they're rising up if she's in razorwing mode. 

 

  • Titania being targetted by archwing turrets/weapons when in razorwing... she has no alerts or ways to actually avoid these unlike full archwings.  They're usually enough to one shot titania rather than just dropping us out of archwing mode.  This changed somewhere around hotfix 22.12.0 but before that titania never had issues with vruush etc because her passive when in razorwing gave here a 50% evasion against enemy attacks.

 

  • Could she also gain some sort of damage scaling.  Now I'm not saying she's weak and it's nice that we can mod the weapons etc now but there is literally zero scaling on her abilities so we will always do a constant damage output no matter the enemy we're attacking.  Plenty of other warframes, nyx rework included, came with or have been given scaling abilities that work on any level of enemy. 

 

  • It would also be nice if we could get a way to refresh the razorfly drones and have basic interaction like reviving allies and things like lift buttons (although might need to fix the fact titania can fall through lift floors first)
Edited by LSG501
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I'm sure you folks already have it set for Nyx's rework, but wouldn't it be cool if you gave her an exalted weapon like a disembodied psychic heavy blade? Or hell, the whip? Like, imagine her walking through corridors or in Vallis with this heavy blade that seems to not quite orbit her, but hovers around her and slashes when you melee attack changing it's default position to over shoulders and at her sides from 4 positions while she stands there all casual as if she's swinging it with her mind? Or that whip that was mentioned that for Khora but never came out? From index and middle fingers together she swings them and a psychic whip lashes out of nothing and strikes multiple enemies that could function as her 2? It could still do the same function but rather than projectiles she whips baddies.

 

Giving her a melee power would give her more of a "I want to get in your face and beat you down". Could be more of a rush to play her.

 

And a new augment for her mind control to redirect a % of the damage she takes to her minion? It could help to feed the damage it deals before it explodes, but as a tradeoff, it doesn't last as long?

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All this time you guys had. All the unique ideas in the forums and everywhere else aaand this is what ya got? Sounds very underwhelming. it doesn’t really tackle most issues the community has with the frames in terms of QoL changes especially Titania. This all seems very... meh. Y’all can do better and you know it

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For Titania:
- Make her 1 and 3 as one ability. Make the ability so that enemies doesn't float! The fact that Titania is a fairy doesn't mean that enemies have to float all over the place!
- Her 2 needs better buffs. Let her also insta get the buffs. Her allies can still collect the buffs. 
- Make her third ability like Garas Splinter Storm with butterflys that has a damage reduction and a slash damaging function that comes from the butterflys. Let her cast her 3 on allies.
- Her 4 can stay the same + vacuum.
Problem solved with Titania!

Edited by Qamelion
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I'm not gonna lie. Whoever thought that Nyx rework is good probably never played Warframe past like level 60. Enemies suck at dealing damage to other enemies. And these "buffs" won't change anything in that. Enemies will still tickle each other when under effect of her skills at higher levels. Highly disappointing.

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1 minute ago, ChaosSabre said:

I'm not gonna lie. Whoever thought that Nyx rework is good probably never played Warframe past like level 60. Enemies suck at dealing damage to other enemies. And these "buffs" won't change anything in that. Enemies will still tickle each other when under effect of her skills at higher levels. Highly disappointing.

Quote

The target will have a 4-second wind up period to absorb your weapon damage which is on a multiplier to enhance its OUTPUT damage

 

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Some of these are good changes, but most of them don't address the issues we've brought up with these abilities still.  This is a bit too soft of a rework, but I don't expect we'll get the more significant amount of work these kits need until later, I guess.

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One thing that might help Absorb synergize with the rest of Nyx's kit is if while it is channeled, all foes affected by her abilities move closer and focus their attacks on her. After the explosion AI would revert to its previous state. It would help it build damage and get the most out of the explosion. 

Would you consider changing the damage type of Absorb's explosion? Magnetic is... not great and doesn't fit the theme (to me at least). I think Impact or Blast would be more fitting.

Is there going to be a rework of Absorb's energy drain rate? At the moment it doesn't feel great, and is often hard to manage with damage numbers at higher levels. I understand and agree with the need to prevent players from turning it on and leaving it on forever (esp. with the augment) but there must be better options, like drain rate increasing over time, or with damage absorbed up to a certain threshold.

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Just now, myuushii said:

 

" The target will have a 4-second wind up period to absorb your weapon damage which is on a multiplier to enhance its OUTPUT damage. For example only (numbers not final): every 2500 damage = 1.5x damage output of the target "

See that output part? That's the problem. It's their base damage.

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Nyx rework looks good but I still have some issues:

  1. Chaos' visual effect is annoying and gets in the way of you and your party aiming properly at enemies as it obscures their vital spots a lot of the time. I'd prefer to see something like a Nyx head icon above each affected enemy.
  2. De-activating Absorb has a very lengthy animation and feels clunky as it locks you in place. It would be great to either see this animation changed or simply sped up as even with casting speed mods it is slow.

Hope you will take these points into consideration. Thanks and have a good one. 😎

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4 minutes ago, ChaosSabre said:

" The target will have a 4-second wind up period to absorb your weapon damage which is on a multiplier to enhance its OUTPUT damage. For example only (numbers not final): every 2500 damage = 1.5x damage output of the target "

See that output part? That's the problem. It's their base damage.

They way they talked about it in the stream implied the minion will do your weapons damage. If you do a certain amount of damage to it in those 4 seconds it just gets a multiplier to said damage. We already have a mod for a 500% buff being useless, so they should know better (...) .

Edited by myuushii
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3 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

Psychic Bolts:

BEFORE:
Nyx launches a cluster of force bolts at enemies, using telekinesis to adjust flight paths and seek nearby targets.
The Number of Bolts and Damage dealt, including a Radiation Status chance made up the entirety of this power.t wasn't unique enough and on its own, it didn't offer enough in high level missions.

AFTER:
This is no longer a flat damage ability, but it is now a debuff. All enemies hit lose a % of defenses (values for Shield/Armor have 20/40/60/80% of defenses removed) for a short duration (5/7/9/11 seconds), making them easier to kill / kill each other when combined with Chaos! Infested will receive a slowing behaviour (not on the same % curve as defenses, still tweaking) + deactivation of Ancient's auras.
We will be doing a presentation clean up as well for more of a 'Psychic' feel in the Telekinesis.

Does this mean a negative Nyx can boost enemy armor?

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Just now, Endelean said:

Nyx rework looks good but I still have some issues:

  1. Chaos' visual effect is annoying and gets in the way of you and your party aiming properly at enemies as it obscures their vital spots a lot of the time. I'd prefer to see something like a Nyx head icon above each affected enemy.
  2. De-activating Absorb has a very lengthy animation and feels clunky as it locks you in place. It would be great to either see this animation changed or simply sped up as even with casting speed mods it is slow.

Hope you will take these points into consideration. Thanks and have a good one. 😎

Also to add to absorb problems, she’s left vulnerable on deactivation animation with no way to defend herself. A random well timed shot can easily kill her. Been an issue since she’s been in the game. 

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Just now, myuushii said:

They way they talked about it in the stream implied the minion will do your weapons damage. If you do a certain amount of damage to it in those 4 seconds it just gets a multiplier to said damage. We already have a mod for a 500% buff being useless, so they should know.

That's what they said on stream. That's not what it says in Dev workshop.

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Can we get more information on how Mind Control damage absorption works to power the enemy up?  For example, is it only Nyx who can power the enemy up? Will other frames' abilities have an effect on this (Octavia adding additional damage to Nyx, targeting weak points created by Banshee's Sonar, Crit damage enhanced by mods/Harrow, etc. etc.)

While this may lead to overpowered Mind Controlled enemies, I would think this should be allowed as it will involve coordination with other Tenno.

Also, will the mind controlled enemy benefit from Gara's shield buff, Oberon's armor buff/healing, Equinox's Mend?

I think if this ability is truly open to all of these features (and the myriad that are too numerous to mention) then it would make Nyx a true force to reckon with and a welcome addition to well coordinated teams.

Oh and can the duration be refreshed at the cost of additional energy but without an additional absorption period?

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1 minute ago, ChaosSabre said:

That's what they said on stream. That's not what it says in Dev workshop.

It does literally say it absorbs your weapon damage.

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