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Ideas to change abilites to improve the game


ysmer
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Hail tenno ill made a post about weapons just recently, but basically i was reading this days the warframe forum (abilities) and i also have years reading then and the problems with wf abilites are the same, the enemys...

some wf abilites affects all enemy near or a few but the diference is the enemy and the abilitie affects them the same having diferents enemys

example vauban bastille: aplies heavy cc the same to a light enemy or a heavy enemy, i think thats the problem i mention above my post about weapons cause i think could help so much abilites the same way that weapons.

the thing is to add a focus to abilites to affecta a kind of enemy, add pasives damage and bonus damage and even some cooldowns or restriction (not to scare people)

example ash:

1 abilitie Now: not used cause weapons cause a lot more damage

2 abilitie now: panic button or increase melee damage

3 abilitie now: not much used (some exception)

4 abilitie now: Used now but people like the way before cause was overpowered

 

what should be

1 abilitie: base damage plus pasive damage 10% hp of the enemy more bonus damage  to heavy unit

2 abilitie: Invisible (i think especial unit should se able to sense invisible)

3 abilite: base damage plus pasive damage 30% of the enemy hp more bonus damage to heavy units (i know this abilitie kill almost every unit but should be focused on big units)

4 abilitie: base damaeg plus pasive damage 15% of the enemy hp more bonus damage to light and medium units (cause you can hits multiple enemies this should deal less damage)

and with this focus in mind change almost every wf abilities to afect diferent enemyes in diferent ways (basically easy to use abilities like aoe affect light units, abilites with litlle aoe or medium dificulty afects medium enemies and aimed individually or hard to use abilites to affect heavy units wich supose to be the harder units)

 

i could give more examples but for now i wish to read others players idea (maybe later give others examples)

saying that i would like to give vauban example short:

he have 2 cc but they should work diferent:  bastille should affect light and medium unit but heavy unit light bombard should be inmune to that, and the vortice could affect heavy units (or the other way) but the 2 abilites shouldnt be in practice the same.

ill apreciate your ideas and thoghts share them

 

 

 

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il y a 8 minutes, vid23 a dit :

im pretty sure people use his first ability, even more on higher level with its augment to strip armor

i should edited but ill try to exagerate my point: its almost not used.

why use 1 to strip armor having 3 that jump into a enemy and can use a finisher to kill faster

Edited by ysmer
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6 minutes ago, ysmer said:

why use 1 to strip armor having 3 that jump into a enemy and can use a finisher to kill faster

Good point, his fatal teleport mod is the only reason to have him now it seems because there's someone who can do everything else he does much better. Mag has a AOE armour strip, Loki has a 40 second invisibility and Saryn can clear maps without needing a line of sight to do so. I'm no ability expert but he could use a small rework or a buff at the very least imo

Edited by (PS4)Equinox21697
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I´d change his invisibility in what the actual name suggests:

2 - Smoke Screen

All enemy inside are "blinded" and marked. Warframes inside this area are invisible
 

 

4 - Teleport and Blade Storm (merged):

Tap 4 (Teleport): For small enemies it´s the same effect. You will simply teleport to the enemy and stun him. In terms of chaining there should be a qol improvement that allows you to press the attack button during the animation and attack instantly. Atm after you stun the enemy there is a small delay until you can attack which feels clunky.

Against bigger units like teralyst or dropships he should attached himself to a weak point for a short duration (like wall latch) and when cast on a Dargyn he should kick the pilot out of it.

Hold 4 (Blade Storm): attacks all marked enemies

 

1 - Shuriken:

You can teleport to any location you hit with Shuriken whether it´s an enemy or obstacle like a wall.

 

3 - Infiltration

You can take the appearance of the last killed enemy. Higher ranked units can identify you when close (for example a commander can identify you if you take the appearance of a lancer).

 

Edited by Arcira
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27 minutes ago, ysmer said:

the idea is not to rework ash, is to change the way abilities work for ALL warframe right now

 

This is not something that can be done in a single thread.  All that will occur is people fighting and bickering and nothing productive will come of it.  As it is there are tons of threads on Ash, on Atlas, ect that are already discussing what is being brought up here so what will happen is this will be yet another of many threads that already have come to pass.

 

Sorry if this sounds harsh, but if any real class re-works are to happen it will require a DE staff member to start the conversation and lay out the guidelines of the discussion.

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27 minutes ago, ysmer said:

the idea is not to rework ash, is to change the way abilities work for ALL warframe right now

The thing is if you want a clearly recognizable effect you have to alter the abilities in a meaningful way. Different damage values for different enemy types isn´t really suited for this. For example every enemy type has it´s own ehp values already (light units have less armor than heavy ones for example). Whether you add a damage multiplier on your ability against a specific enemy or increase his defenses against your damage type doesn´t really matter. I´d prefer more resistances and defenses on the target side. Damage types and there effects should be clear. However the problem I can see is most of the time you don´t really notice the difference (aside from high armor values maybe).

For cc it might be a little bit easier for examle if you reduce the time a specific enemy is affected. But to be honest I don´t think this will be very noticeable either. There is more to it than just number changes. In my opinion it´s more important to give the user some kind of feedback and invest in different visual effects, audio and new mechanics in order to get a feeling for the impact of an ability.

A good example might be Forst or cold damage in general. Similar to essentially all status effects there are currently only 2 possible conditions (chilled or not). In order to give player a more engaging gameplay it´s not enought to alter some fix values. Enemies hit by cold damage should become slower the longer they are affected until they freeze and become vulnerable to shatter. Or corrosive damage actually damages armor to visualize whether it´s efficient or not.

As for Ash I think his abilities provide much more potential because as you might admit % damage on all of them is kinda repetitive. Special enemies that can detect you while using smoke screen is a more interessting one but it´s a invisibility system rework at the same time. That´s why my suggestion includes this kind of adjustments as well and I think those improvements are necessary for alot of abilities and mechanics in the game.

For Vauban I don´t like the idea that heavies are completely immune they could be affected slower though.

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"The thing is if you want a clearly recognizable effect you have to alter the abilities in a meaningful way. Different damage values for different enemy types isn´t really suited for this" of course is suited bro maybe not in level 10 to 30 enemys but damage is what make abilites important or dont (or cc) see right now i check forum and all talk about over used abilites or under used and why there are so overused or under used, damage basically, someframes are too good and easy to do that,and others are easy but bad damage or hard to use and medium damage, so i believe that this changes should make abilites atleast do some damage oriented to focus a type of enemy, a mechanic that is suited for almost all video games, and even in real life, you shouldnt use a sniper to close quarter. saying this i know there are resistances i have years checking wikia but to be honest in the practice i dont really note much diference.

"However the problem I can see is most of the time you don´t really notice the difference (aside from high armor values maybe). "(exactly)

"For Vauban I don´t like the idea that heavies are completely immune they could be affected slower though. " that is why im looking in posible ideas but my main concern is that and abilitie shouldnt affect the same way all units

"A good example might be Forst or cold damage in general. Similar to essentially all status effects there are currently only 2 possible conditions (chilled or not). In order to give player a more engaging gameplay it´s not enought to alter some fix values. Enemies hit by cold damage should become slower the longer they are affected until they freeze and become vulnerable to shatter. " (good ideads)

so this kind of changes indeed should make a diference.

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This is what I would do to ash`s abilities to make him better;

1st Ability:

·       If you hold the ability, depending what elemental mods you have on your melee weapon it will be applied onto it but only base elementals. If you have two elementals equipped, you will have a 50% chance to proc either one.

 

2nd ability

·       Enemies that enter the smoke will have a 5 sec stun duration and be more susceptible to damage.

 

3rd ability:

·       Make ash able to teleport through windows.

·       Make ash able to teleport to enemies in the air.

 

4th ability

·       When activating the ability, it will start instantly.

·       Pressing the ability will bring you into the animation, holding the ability will send clones out to kill instead of you.

·       Enemies that are red can be killed by players.

·       Make bs able to kill as many enemies that are within the radius of the enemy he`s aiming at.

·       The number of enemies that are going to be killed by bs are shown.

 

Synergy:

·       If you use any ability while you`re invisible, enemy bodies will disappear.

 

Fix: Make Ash be able to teleport in and out of the same grates instead of just one direction.

Fix: Sometime ash isn`t on the enemy or he is unseen when using bladestorm.

Fix: Make the “clones” look like him instead of looking like a hologram.

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I feel we're getting bogged down by specifics here, when what ysmer is suggesting are general changes to all warframes and abilities. From what I'm seeing, the core idea is to have damaging abilities scale with the enemy's health, so that there's always a reason to use even the weakest ability nuke in one's kit.

On one hand, I like this because it would be a neat solution to a long-standing problem, and a solution that DE have sort of been implementing already: the core problem with damage abilities is that flat damage does not scale, whereas everything else, i.e. CC and utility, does. As such, the only way to make damage abilities work is to a) overbuff them (e.g. Saryn's Spores), b) give frames effects that let them ignore enemy scaling (e.g. Ash's 4 dealing finisher damage, or his augmented 1 stripping armor), or c) make nukes scale off of weapons mods (e.g. Ash's 4, Mesa's 4, Garuda's 1, etc.). The proposal looks like it would fit into solution B, and I think that, to a larger extent, it'd be okay if most abilities auto-scaled, because we already have plenty of abilities strong enough to nuke entire crowds of level 100+ enemies at a time: even if Zephyr's Dive Bomb could insta-kill a level 150 Corrupted Heavy Gunner if used from on high, it would still not even approach any of the dozen different room clears baked into the kits of nuke frames.

With this in mind, though, all of this I think raises the question of what the purpose of enemy scaling is anyway: as it stands, enemies scale in power because we make our frames and weapons purely stronger with mods, and significantly so at that. If we increase our damage by 100% and enemies gain 100% increased effective health, the end result produces no change in gameplay whatsoever, even though players who haven't yet modded their weapons in that way will suffer, and players who have will trivialize older content (and as it stands, we can increase our damage by far, far more than just 100%). Considering how increases in enemy levels to match our own weapon power creep have been the prime reason behind many frame abilities feeling weak or downright useless at higher levels, I think we should consider deflating damage increases on weapons, as well as level increases on enemies. Eventually, I'd like difficulty in Warframe to change radically so that it doesn't base itself off of increasing enemy health or damage, but for the time being there are gains to be had from removing certain mandatory damage mods, and adjusting enemy level ranges in compensation.

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