Nidus Prime makes no sense

[DzeraDragonbane]

The only improvement I look for in Nidus Prime is that he either gains stacks faster or maximum stacks are now 150. COULD BE BOTH FOR GOOD MEASURE.

[(XBOX)Lwyu]

2 hours ago, Kerberos-3 said:

As a matter of fact, it is very likely that Gersemi had different abilities from Valkyr. The main indicator to this is the last segment of her Codex entry, which Chaemyerelis so kindly quoted for us. "Leaving her scarred, angry, and Frighteningly adept at killing". The bold part is the important bit. How does one become "Frightening adept at killing" if they were not already so? Answer, they don't. Gersemi was almost certainly very different from Valkyr. Most likely, she was either a support frame like Octavia and Trinity(in other words, no where near the enemy at any point in time) or an espionage frame like Loki. In either case, Gersemi probably lacked killing power, hence why, after the experiments, she was described as "frighteningly adept at killing".

Very different from valk- Its a skin. You guys are reading too much into it. Its a skin. Its all it was meant to be.

[Kerberos-3]

1 minute ago, (XB1)Lwyu said:

Very different from valk- Its a skin. You guys are reading too much into it. Its a skin. Its all it was meant to be.

It's a skin with lore relevance. That's what sets Gersemi apart for the others. Only three other skins have any lore relevance, those being Loki Knave, Saryn Orchid, and Oberon Feyarch, and their relevance is only within the context of The Silver Grove quest. Valkyr Gersemi has lore relevance outside a simple quest.

[birdobash]

It would probably be described as "The very first iteration of the warframe, utter perfection, but too powerful and uncontrollable for the orokin, but not for us. Take control of this wild beast tenno."

And ik excalibur prime is written ingame as the very first warframe, but that is very vague, and my theory is that he probably is the first "commercial" warframe, the first ready for combat warframe, a non-testing frame. 

Nidus prime could easily just be the very first warframe ever tested and created, but because it was too uncontrollable with the whole infested weapon bits they probably toned it down in the later tests, resulting in excal prime as their final and first working result.

Edited January 1, 2019 by birdobash

[birdobash]

Now this is taking it to the next level of assumptions about the lore behind valkyr, gersemi, and valkyr prime, but I'm sure it'll clear up a lot of the arguments.

Let's assume that originally valkyr prime was a rage embracing warrior from the start, even before gersemi or alad v, she was already a berserker.

Then let's assume that Gersemi had become "rusty" or did not feel like embracing her valkyr rage because she was becoming more peace loving, she wanted to become less like her orokin primed counterpart. People and tenno can change, especially over several centuries. It would explain her design a bit, hence her calm turquoise base color as a sort of rejection of the rage. It is possible that gersemi only used everything but hysteria as gersemi valkyr, as none of the 3 abilities besides hysteria are technically considered "frighteningly adept at killing" which is quoted in the lore. Of course she technically can still use hysteria but let's assume she doesn't like to and avoids it at all costs.

Without hysteria, gersemi becomes a team battle buffer with warcry, and a CC frame with paralysis. She also has ripline to be spidercat. Nothing that would be considered an adept killer, she actually sounds more like a warcrier buffer.

Then we assume that after being tortured by alad v, gersemi valkyr who is now just valkyr has reverted or because of the torture has relearned how to harness the power of her rage, and because valkyr prime has been forgotten and present valkyr b4 alad v was non-killer gersemi, the whole "became frighteningly adept at killing" would make sense. She didn't suddenly learn how to kill S#&$ really well, she always has known how to, it's just that she was very reluctant to. But alad v's experiments and torture of her rekindled that rage she always had inside her and reverted her and now she is no longer reluctant to use her full power.

Edited January 1, 2019 by birdobash

[(PSN)Zero_029]

On 2018-11-28 at 4:23 PM, Kerberos-3 said:

There are a lot of primes that make zero sense at all lore-wise without Olympic-grade mental gymnastics. Why does Valkyr Prime exist as she is, when most of the available lore heavily indicates that Gersemi was a completely different frame? Why does Nova Prime exist at all when her origins clearly place her creation after the fall of the Orokin? Why does Helios Prime exist, when Helios is a Corpus-made Sentinel? None of these should exist, going by the current definition of what a Prime is, but they do, because reasons.

Ugh...

This is true on so many levels that it hurts. I have issues with ALL these Lore breaking primes.

[Kerberos-3]

7 minutes ago, birdobash said:

Now this is taking it to the next level of assumptions about the lore behind valkyr, gersemi, and valkyr prime, but I'm sure it'll clear up a lot of the arguments.

Let's assume that originally valkyr prime was a rage embracing warrior from the start, even before gersemi or alad v, she was already a berserker.

Then let's assume that Gersemi had become "rusty" or did not feel like embracing her valkyr rage because she was becoming more peace loving, she wanted to become less like her orokin primed counterpart. People and tenno can change, especially over several centuries. It would explain her design a bit, hence her calm turquoise base color as a sort of rejection of the rage. It is possible that gersemi only used everything but hysteria as gersemi valkyr, as none of the 3 abilities besides hysteria are technically considered "frighteningly adept at killing" which is quoted in the lore. Of course she technically can still use hysteria but let's assume she doesn't like to and avoids it at all costs.

Without hysteria, gersemi becomes a team battle buffer with warcry, and a CC frame with paralysis. She also has ripline to be spidercat. Nothing that would be considered an adept killer, she actually sounds more like a warcrier buffer.

Then we assume that after being tortured by alad v, gersemi valkyr who is now just valkyr has reverted or because of the torture has relearned how to harness the power of her rage, and because valkyr prime has been forgotten and present valkyr b4 alad v was non-killer gersemi, the whole "became frighteningly adept at killing" would make sense. She didn't suddenly learn how to kill S#&$ really well, she always has known how to, it's just that she was very reluctant to. But alad v's experiments and torture of her rekindled that rage she always had inside her and reverted her and now she is no longer reluctant to use her full power.

Or, another way that the lore could be interpreted, is that Gersemi was a completely different Frame, as per the lore. Her abilities changed after Alad's experiments, and then she was upgraded to Prime status later down the line using Orokin era tech recovered from Lua in the aftermath of the Moon's return.

[(XBOX)Lwyu]

2 hours ago, Kerberos-3 said:

It's a skin with lore relevance. That's what sets Gersemi apart for the others. Only three other skins have any lore relevance, those being Loki Knave, Saryn Orchid, and Oberon Feyarch, and their relevance is only within the context of The Silver Grove quest. Valkyr Gersemi has lore relevance outside a simple quest.

Until they have some random quest behind what her lore was, its up to either our imaginations or common sense what the lore really is. Gersemi skin was made to show the players what she looked like before her alad v encounter, mostly because players really wanted to know and because DE wanted to touch up on valkyr a bit by giving her a shiny well made skin that represents her best features and confirmations that shes a god damn cat waifu. There are two possible lores behind her skin. 

1. She never had rage until she dealt with alad V's torture so she had a kit without a fourth.

2. She had the power of hysteria but it got enhanced a lot more when she dealt with the torture and experiments.

Otherwise its literally just a skin, there might not even be a lore besides the fact she looked nice and had a different or no ability in place of hysteria. So again its really not that serious. Its just a skin, a skin you guys are looking too deep into and that says alot coming from a person who only uses her 90% of the time. There are so many things in the game that should have lore and the skin that was made to legit show how she was in the past for player curiousity and high demand is the only thing thats in the topic here. Let the girl be, if she gets lore behind it they can add it to the codex or show a quick quest with nothing to gain but a nice syandana. Thats it.

[(XBOX)Lwyu]

3 minutes ago, Kerberos-3 said:

Or, another way that the lore could be interpreted, is that Gersemi was a completely different Frame, as per the lore. Her abilities changed after Alad's experiments, and then she was upgraded to Prime status later down the line using Orokin era tech recovered from Lua in the aftermath of the Moon's return.

But she was not a completely different frame. The lore states before there was a gersemi valkyr. They never ever once said alad v messed with her abilities. He tampered with her by removing and replacing pieces of her body parts to find out how warframes tick. The best he could do was zanuka which has a bit of gersemi looks on it. Basically he pulled a leatherface and made it into something that walks.

You may interpret it that way but its more unlikely in that way of thinking of her. 

 

[birdobash]

10 minutes ago, Kerberos-3 said:

Or, another way that the lore could be interpreted, is that Gersemi was a completely different Frame, as per the lore. Her abilities changed after Alad's experiments, and then she was upgraded to Prime status later down the line using Orokin era tech recovered from Lua in the aftermath of the Moon's return.

This wouldn't work because it is stated on her prime variant that this was valkyr BEFORE alad v, clearly stating it's in the past. Even if she was "re-primed" as you say, it wouldn't make sense because it would contradict what her description says.

[Kerberos-3]

Just now, birdobash said:

This wouldn't work because it is stated on her prime variant that this was valkyr BEFORE alad v, clearly stating it's in the past. Even if she was "re-primed" as you say, it wouldn't make sense because it would contradict what her description says.

Her Deluxe was Pre-Alad. Her Prime makes no mention of it. That's why it works.

[birdobash]

8 minutes ago, Kerberos-3 said:

Her Deluxe was Pre-Alad. Her Prime makes no mention of it. That's why it works.

"A proud fighter emerges, unscarred by time or malice"

Considering the context of valkyr bases description of being left "scarred" by alad v's, we can assume that the unscarred by malice part is referring to alad v's experiment. Meaning this frame was created before the alad v event.

"Unscarred by time" most likely refers to it being in mint or pristine condition, and as per context of all primes it means these are all original orokin frames. The important part being "unscarred" means it was never scarred in the first place, if valkyr prime was a re-primed prime frame, it wouldn't say "unscarred", because it would make no sense, it would in some way have to say "healed" or "recovered".

Of course DE could suddenly flip the lore upside down and make whatever they want true, but a long running fact in warframe lore so far is that all primed frames are physically impossible to recreate the designs for because the orokin were just too far in technology than anybody in the solar system is ATM, we the tenno can only reproduce the fragments left behind, give them to ordis who is an orokin cephalon, and only then can we recreate these frames in the foundry BECAUSE the cephalon is the closest thing to orokin technology that we have access to.

Edited January 1, 2019 by birdobash

[kgabor]

Add Valkyr Umbra, Harrow Umbra and Mutalist Nidus/Ancient Nidus or whatever Nidus players would like it called.

That's three plotholes fixed.

Helios Prime could be renamed to Helios Vandal with its backstory being an attempt at reverse engineering Orokin sentinels. (but this one might actually fit the lore as is as Helios Prime, the original was Orokin and normal Helios is the Corpus copy, in that case just stop calling the prime version a Corpus design which only the regular one was)

[Jarriaga]

I think the contradictions some people point out result from not setting or respecting some ground rules:

1) Prime frames and weapons are the original Orokin designs; they are not upgrades or enhanced versions created after the regular frames were made. Regular frames on the other hand are second generation/mass-produced designs based on their original "Primed" versions. This is actually a common practice in which high-quality, expensive prototypes are first made as proof of concept and later streamlined and mass-produced.  

2) The Orokin may have referred to Prime Warframes as their regular versions until the mass-produced versions were introduced and there was a need to better identify or categorize the original designs. This means that Excalibur Prime was just called Excalibur until the second-generation (Regular) Excalibur was produced.

3) Regular frames and weapons are imperfect copies and/or mass-produced Tenno recreations since Orokin technology and craftsmanship have been lost to time, making it impossible for the Tenno to "Prime" them.

Going by those ground rules it's easy to fit both Valkyr Prime and Gersemi into the lore and even address other inconsistencies:

- Valkyr Prime is the original, unscarred warrior untainted by the experiments. She was lost to time or very difficult to produce, so a second generation mass production Valkyr model (Gersemi) was made but it got captured by Alad V. and experimented upon.

- Helios is a Corpus replica of Helios Prime.

- Nidus was created using an infestation strain that came from Nidus Prime or it's a byproduct. I'm willing to bet Nidus Prime will be a lot more elegant, clean, and refined in design to reflect this. Bookmark this post.

- Since Rell was lost to history and no one knew of his existence it's possible he created Harrow himself by taking inspiration from Harrow Prime, which could make Harrow potentially unique lore-wise. Another way to go about this is that Rell's Warframe was in fact Harrow Prime (Then just called Harrow), but was eventually destroyed while containing the Man in The Wall and Rell tried to recreate it as best as he could.

Lore is easier to handle when you speculate around some ground rules.

Edited January 1, 2019 by Jarriaga

[Zeclem]

On 2018-11-29 at 1:23 AM, Kerberos-3 said:

There are a lot of primes that make zero sense at all lore-wise without Olympic-grade mental gymnastics. Why does Valkyr Prime exist as she is, when most of the available lore heavily indicates that Gersemi was a completely different frame? Why does Nova Prime exist at all when her origins clearly place her creation after the fall of the Orokin? Why does Helios Prime exist, when Helios is a Corpus-made Sentinel? None of these should exist, going by the current definition of what a Prime is, but they do, because reasons.

theres no piece of lore that was ever provided that explicitly stated these items can not exist, actually in two of those cases there is proof for the opposite.

1-gersemi could be the standard valkyr, made by tenno after the fall of orokin empire. theres absolutely nothing that suggests against that, nor that her abilities was any different.

2-nova was made by players, thats what "design council" is. its not a lore related thing, its a marketing thing. and even if it was lore related, it can be easily said that this council took the design from an orokin era model. 

3-sentinels arent "made" by anybody. we found them as a group of biomechanical(?) aliens on the edge of solar system like sentinels(which game even makes a direct implication to in the cephalon fragments). the basic one is a corpus reproduction. 

so no, theres nothing that makes it a retcon of the lore just by having a primed version. 

[(NSW)Evilpricetag]

7 hours ago, kgabor said:

Helios Prime could be renamed to Helios Vandal with its backstory being an attempt at reverse engineering Orokin sentinels. (but this one might actually fit the lore as is as Helios Prime, the original was Orokin and normal Helios is the Corpus copy, in that case just stop calling the prime version a Corpus design which only the regular one was)

Except it was the Tenno race that discovered the sentinel race. 

These are life forms that have been breed into what they are today. (Please see the long history of dog breeding) 

Sentinels are a special case that their non prime existed before their prime counterparts. 

The Origin actually have a lot to do with who the Corpus are genetically also, and Ostrons are also closely related to them. The Corpus were basically another race of underlings beneath the Orokin, an alliance if you would like to call them that. Helios is very capable of either being trading technology before or after its prime from the respected Tenno of their time. 

Where as it needs to be mentioned, both Dethcube and Dijinn have quickly tied to reason. Grineer queens were in fact once Orokin themselves, so the knowledge of Orokin tech could easily be understood and stolen. 

And Dijinn having been a test of the infested manipulation, which in a odd case only transformed the Dijinn on the outside as it still remains loyal to Tenno, and this thing also has a predated lore skin as Gaza, but not enough lore exists to believe if there were a Prime that it should be different. 

Skins are very capable of holding lore. The Dark Sector series might not be canon, but Excalibur Proto description indicates it potentially predating Orokin altogether, it's lore in its own respect for our university is up for speculation. 

 

 

Edit: Further evidence in the Lore of skins could be provided in the Silver Grove.  As Oberon, Saryn, and Loki are all using their Deluxe skins and have altered abilities. 

Edited January 1, 2019 by (NSW)Evilpricetag

[BabyKurama]

Nether did Nova Prime if you read Nova's backstory, yet Nova Prime we got.

 

Wish is starting to make me wonder if all that isn't backstory is aimed at the prime versions of the frame. And the regular once we make are just a by product of not having enough information on them. If it would be so then It would make sence 

Edited January 1, 2019 by BabyKurama

[Jarriaga]

14 minutes ago, BabyKurama said:

Nether did Nova Prime if you read Nova's backstory, yet Nova Prime we got.

 

Wish is starting to make me wonder if all that isn't backstory is aimed at the prime versions of the frame. And the regular once we make are just a by product of not having enough information on them. If it would be so then It would make sence 

That's something I mentioned in my post above: The Orokin may have referred to Prime Warframes as their regular versions until the mass-produced versions were introduced and there was a need to better identify or categorize the original designs. This means that Excalibur Prime was just called Excalibur until the second-generation (Regular) Excalibur was produced.

 

[(NSW)Evilpricetag]

ON topic: why not? Nidus fleshy appearance isn't unlike what we see in *spoiler* cracked umbra helmet *spoiler*.

He's a warframe like all the others. 

I question is someone like Ballace actually crafting Warframe appearances, or is Helminth doing it? Either way Nidus doesn't have a hard exterior, that's really it..  And his abilities reflect his appearance. 

Hema and Hirudo can be primed, similar to Skajati, it could be made from his very flesh. 

[Kyoresh]

On 2018-12-31 at 11:13 PM, TARINunit9 said:

the guy i was replying to theorizes that every Helminth in every Warframe is modified from Helminth the First

no, thats not what I meant. Helmnith is a modified version of the infestation we encounter as the infested

[(PSN)BattleCry1791]

On 2018-11-28 at 4:13 PM, TroubleCraft said:

In my opinion, it would make little sense to prime Nidus in his due time, mainly because of concept.

Don’t take me wrong, a prime’s design, improved stats and orb passive are just incredible things to enjoy for just a bit more action in an awesome game

yet the idea of a prime version of a warframe based around the evolved infestation, the weapon gone out of control rather than the kind once used by the Orokin wouldn’t make sense in my opinion, design-wise.

Not telling anyone to do anything here, not complaining about anything, I just had to get that idea out.

Who knows, DE might justhave the biggest twist on us.

But there’s my opinion, argue if you wish

I’m only glad to chat :V

You go sit in the corner, shut up, and think about what you've done.  When you've stopped overthinking things, you can come out. 

[Xenophil]

One of the theories says that Nidus might be even older than Excalibur Umbra. The first ever attempt to mix human flesh with technocyte.
But the second theory says that Nidus Prime WILL be a thing because Orokin knew that technocyte is a great weapon and making warframe a weapon itself is a good idea. Just put more technocyte in the blender.
Also, my favorite Ctrl+C, Ctrl+V:
Remember, kids:
1. Prime doesn't mean "Tenno" or "Orokin", it means "built with Orokin tech".
2. Literally anything can be primed, even Grakata. Just give the Grineer some time to make progress on Orokin tech (Seer and Twin Rogga are best attempts but it's already something!)
3. Nidus Prime WILL be a thing, wait for him/it to be found.
4. Only one Umbra.
5. Umbra is NOT a Prime because it's a prototype.

[Atsia]

12 minutes ago, Xenophil said:

2. Literally anything can be primed, even Grakata. Just give the Grineer some time to make progress on Orokin tech (Seer and Twin Rogga are best attempts but it's already something!)

No, it's been pretty clearly stated the only Tenno faction weapons are able to have a prime. Just using orokin tech isn't enough, it had to have been made BY the Orokin.

[Xenophil]

1 minute ago, Atsia said:

No, it's been pretty clearly stated the only Tenno faction weapons are able to have a prime. Just using orokin tech isn't enough, it had to have been made BY the Orokin.

Source please.

[stormy505]

prime frames aren't cannon. Accept that and it will help you sleep at night.