Nidus Prime makes no sense

[AdunSaveMe]

5 hours ago, Chaemyerelis said:

Its a stretch that requires assumptions.

The only stretching going on is people stretching lore with bad logic to try and explain why these things don't make sense, when they actually do.

[SilentMobius]

On 2018-11-28 at 10:13 PM, TroubleCraft said:

In my opinion, it would make little sense to prime Nidus in his due time, mainly because of concept.

Then your understanding of Nidus' concept is flawed.

DE have made it clear: every warframe is eligible for a prime, and prime's abilities will only differ cosmetically from the non-prime.The lore will bend around this certainty so if you think that your understanding of the lore precludes these facts, your understanding of the lore is wrong. Most likely you are making assumptions that are unconfirmed and are refusing to discard your faulty assumptions. I'd describe it as "toxic headcanon"

It's that simple.

 

Edited November 30, 2018 by SilentMobius

[(XBOX)Papa Requiem]

Guess what? Nidus Prime is coming.

[-_Highlander_-]

 If Nidus prime doesn't sound right

maby then 

Nidus Umbra 

[(PSN)teacup775]

1 hour ago, -_Highlander_- said:

 If Nidus prime doesn't sound right

maby then 

Nidus Umbra 

ehh, the quest line for him suggests making peace with the infested. He’s the embodiment of the crazy power the infested touch gives frames, but he coexists with it. he directs it.

[(XBOX)Arbalestier]

In my opinion; prime frames in general don't make sense from a lore perspective because they're purely a money/time sink mechanic with no plausible story impact.  The tenno using older, archaic methods of warfare to fight a reactive enemy that adapts to every form of damage also makes no sense because the Dax swinging nikanas en masse seemed to have been sufficient for a period of time too.  You can argue the Ballas protocol, but the Ballas plot was dumped on top of the Warframe plot after operators were revealed and shoehorned over Warframes having their own unique identities.  Obviously that was conveniently forgotten but sort of integrated after Sacrifice. (not really)

The problem starts here: Valkyr being a modified corpus experiment of Gersemi Valkyr and the Tenno had to rescue her during an event unlock her.  Titania being a stolen prototype that precides over a direct Orokin infested/transference experiment.  Or Inaros going completely rogue fighting its own civil war on Mars, or every story frame existing as a unique entity regardless if it was tenno linked or semi-sentient. 

It doesn't lend credibility to unique frames getting mass produced before hand and then DE throwing the deluxe model for everyone to scramble over when you have to justify going on quests to get one working blueprint.  If they were forged, the means or evidence of their making would still be vaulted somewhere and not in Void airplane turds called Orokin void relics.  This is the same philosophy of losing wootz steel or Byzantine Klivanion manufacturing.

Nidus Prime doesn't make sense lorewise unless there is a reason to make more than one Nidus the Myconians conveniently had, either as a proto infested frame before excal (which obviously isn't true if excal keeps being the original frame) or if Nidus is an infested control unit built from the Helminth strain during a brief window of Infested research.  You don't need more than one Nidus which doesn't seem like a feasible idea if you likely have the old war one who is constantly complaining about being old and hungry and commenting on your void energy being too bright or dark.   Again, why would there be primed versions of unique frames if the regular warframes were Orokin tech and had a purpose or were discontinued due to events and circumstances?  Why would the Tenno have Lotus sanctioned hand me downs in cryostasis but lose their original gear since only a handful of people could use transference and not be tenno.  If the regular warframes aren't Tenno back-engineered Orokin constructs, why make Primed versions when you can easily mass produce the bolts and fleshsteel to make them?

Can it work because mama DE says so?  Sure.  I still think it's weak writing like Warhammer 40k's.  That won't stop me from laughing about it while I add another Prime to the collection which was easier to get than the base frame though.  

[Atsia]

5 hours ago, (XB1)Turaglas said:

In my opinion; prime frames in general don't make sense from a lore perspective because they're purely a money/time sink mechanic with no plausible story impact.  The tenno using older, archaic methods of warfare to fight a reactive enemy that adapts to every form of damage also makes no sense because the Dax swinging nikanas en masse seemed to have been sufficient for a period of time too.

I mean, it really wasn't. Lore plainly says that the Dax were pretty much ineffective against the Sentients, though there were exceptions like Umbra.The Orokin were losing quite hard until Warframes came in (a reason being  we can make it that swinging a sword over and over doesn't become less effective). Though you are right that the Primes as thing dont' effective the lore, other than being a copy of the stronger original version of a frame.

[(XBOX)Arbalestier]

Well not entirely, the Orokin were losing badly because their defense constructs were taken over by Sentient hacking since they were "like kin."  If you can microengineer void weaponry and bombs, why bother with the Tenno?

[Atsia]

4 minutes ago, (XB1)Turaglas said:

Well not entirely, the Orokin were losing badly because their defense constructs were taken over by Sentient hacking since they were "like kin."  If you can microengineer void weaponry and bombs, why bother with the Tenno?

From what I understand, it was a combo of the two. It seems like they probably relied on the Dax as more of a peacekeeping/personal bodygaurd force while their main defense were all their superior magitech, but once that's gone, the Dax would still be superior as a fighting force, but still fall short (mostly) to machine that can essentially infinitely adapt to any thing you throw at them and spread that immunity to all of their comrades. And of course, we all know how their first attempt to get a properly fight them went. Oh technocyte........

[Redfeather75]

Not all weapons can be made into primes either to appease the lore. But that doesn't mean we don't get enhanced versions.

So we get wraith, prisma, etc. versions of weapons.

So who knows what Nidus enhanced version will be called.

Edited December 1, 2018 by Redfeather75

[Ninj4Rdin]

wasn't valkyr original form the gersemi one? an already existing frame with probably some different abilities, I wish that the prime version would had been somehow a little more develloped around that idea. calling it maybe Gersemi Prime instead of Valkyr Prime, and maybe change few detail in it's ability/ie or changing Hysteria (and maybe Warcry also) name since the abilities is mainly named after the torture she sufered under Alad V.

In a same Way Nidus Prime might be the prime version of it before it was turned into nidus still I wish they would make a variante form much like what they did for excalibur umbra, example a storyline about relic and lore about prime version of warframes, still since valkyr prime existe then there's no reason for nidus prime to not exist, valkyr prime make even less sense then nidus prime.

[(XBOX)Lwyu]

On 2018-11-28 at 4:23 PM, Kerberos-3 said:

There are a lot of primes that make zero sense at all lore-wise without Olympic-grade mental gymnastics. Why does Valkyr Prime exist as she is, when most of the available lore heavily indicates that Gersemi was a completely different frame? Why does Nova Prime exist at all when her origins clearly place her creation after the fall of the Orokin? Why does Helios Prime exist, when Helios is a Corpus-made Sentinel? None of these should exist, going by the current definition of what a Prime is, but they do, because reasons.

Uhm to answer your gersemi thing I noticed, she was a different kind of frame but she was stripped of just her looks, nothing ever said she had different abilities, plus she could have had a duller version of hysteria and lesrned to harness it thus becoming our loveable valkyr. So they gave her a prime which makes sense because this is a whole new frame theyre giving the prime to. The gersemi skin is an weird thing to explain but that part is infact innacurrate in what you said.

Edited December 31, 2018 by (XB1)Lwyu

[(XBOX)Lwyu]

14 minutes ago, Jeanperson said:

wasn't valkyr original form the gersemi one? an already existing frame with probably some different abilities, I wish that the prime version would had been somehow a little more develloped around that idea. calling it maybe Gersemi Prime instead of Valkyr Prime, and maybe change few detail in it's ability/ie or changing Hysteria (and maybe Warcry also) name since the abilities is mainly named after the torture she sufered under Alad V.

In a same Way Nidus Prime might be the prime version of it before it was turned into nidus still I wish they would make a variante form much like what they did for excalibur umbra, example a storyline about relic and lore about prime version of warframes, still since valkyr prime existe then there's no reason for nidus prime to not exist, valkyr prime make even less sense then nidus prime.

Thats not possible considering her gersemi skin is based off her OLD self. No abilities of her past were explained, shown or anything so theyd have to remake valkyr just for that skin. Not to mention her lore is about how she was stripped of her old skin , tortured and used by the corpus aka alad v to create the zanuka project and more of his inventions using her parts. This gave her rage, and she now despises the corpus but she harnesses that rage as her own new power. I cant tell if her rage was always there but we are forced to believe thats how it is. Gersemi skin was placed to show what SHE WAS BEFORE her torture so when they made valkyr prime they were making it based off the current real valkyr not the skin. Sp the current prime makes all the sense. I do however agree id like to know what she was like in the past and maybe theyll introduce future gersemi skins or explain her lore in a stronger detail.

P.S they made the gersemi skin because of people wanting to know what valkyr looked like before her torture, they were never asked to remake her enitre being so honestly lets try not to continously ask for a skin to be given a whole new version of valkyr since it never existed back then until DE decided to feed our curiousities. Not to mention the skin USED TO BE limited edition but due to high demand everyone can obtain it at anytime.

Edited December 31, 2018 by (XB1)Lwyu

[(XBOX)Lwyu]

On 2018-11-28 at 5:02 PM, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

Lore friend Valkyr Prime would be based off Gersemi and have a different move set 

Gersemi never existed until DE decided to release a limited time skin to show off valkyr and how she LOOKED before she was tortured and used. Not to imply theyd make a whole new version of her with a skin. So that Lore your speaking of prob would have never existed. The lore of valkyr today is how she gained that rage, not what she was before. Her prime makes sense, Im happy DE satisfied our curiousities of what valkyr used to look like but because of that everyones thinking "her prime makes no sense", "her gersemi skin makes more sense" 😕 what. Its a skin, thats all it was meant to be and yes I agree Id like to know what she was like power wise and more because shes my number one but thats asking for too much for just a skin. If they do show more lore and give her a whole new set of abilities based on the skin, by all means im down for it. But is there a NEED? no. So many primes have 0 sense and this is the one most people keep bringing up. Heres a topoc change for once, instead of hopping on valkyrs normality lets talk about how the heck chroma has a prime isnt he prehistoric? Isnt helios a corpus made machine? in short All primes make sense cuz DE says so, its too late to ask for a meaning after all the damn threads like "WHAT PRIME DO U WANNA SEE NEXT HYUCK, I WANNA SEE KAVAT PRIME OR UHH LETS SEE A Baro PRIME".

[Lakais]

On 2018-11-29 at 12:42 AM, AdunSaveMe said:

It would make perfect sense. A prime is an original, and the rest are like mass-produced versions. There would be a pinnacle evolution Nidus. I don't really follow your reasoning here. It makes as much sense as regular Nidus does.

Gersemi was supposed to just be pre-corpus Valkyr. The description for the skin literally says "Before Alad V, before the experiments, there was the Gersemi Valkyr." How does that "heavily indicate" it was a different frame? The devs themselves literally called it "pre-corpus Valkyr" in production.

Her origins do not "clearly" place her there at all. That's just a complete misunderstanding borne of her being thought up partially by the Design Council, which people are still misconstruing to this day. There is no lore stating she came after the orokin.

Helios is a corpus themed sentinel. This is also not reliable canon since it's very old content, much like how the braton was originally a corpus themed weapon. Also very easily explained by the fact that the corpus reverse engineer a lot of orokin technology, and would have made their own version of an ancient sentinel.

All these things make perfect sense.

I'm honestly VERY iffy about Primes being first anything. With frames, it's sort of debatable but with the weapons, the vast majority are clearly described as ornamental or ceremonial. Personally I hold the opinion that Prime frames and weapons are, unless specifically stated in their in-game descriptions, created AFTER the originals. Essentially, Primes are the mastercrafted, limited edition, "Badge or Rank/Honor" versions, improved on the base design simply by using superior materials and more refined techniques. 

For Valkyr (or with all Prime frames), I argue that it's a case of "improved hardware, same software". If anything, looking at Valkyr Prime specifically, I get the impression that the base Valkyr model we got, was Primed by some entrepreneurial Tenno through the use of some components found in the Relics. Which would mean the timeline goes Gersemi-Standard-Prime. The Gersemi looks much more refined then the Prime. 

[AcceI]

Doesn't matter anymore nowadays.  Trust me. smhs.

[Chaemyerelis]

Forged in the labs of the Zanuka project, the original Valkyr was subject to cruel experiments, leaving her scarred, angry and frighteningly adept at killing.
This is Valkyr, the tormented, the experiment.

Valkyr was crafted from torment, Tenno. Take control of her rage.

---------------------

Before Alad V, before the experiments, there was the Gersemi Valkyr.

---------------------

So if the non primed valkyr was the outcome of being the subject to cruel experiments and harnesses her rage from the torture of said experiments; all of which happened after the old war and gersemi valkyr was the precursor to the tormented valkyr, how can valkyr prime who also uses moves themed after tormented rage even exist as a frame. 

It doesn't make sense.

Sure you can just say something like well the orokin tortured her too but that's just assumption based on convenience for her story.

[(XBOX)Lwyu]

15 minutes ago, Chaemyerelis said:

Forged in the labs of the Zanuka project, the original Valkyr was subject to cruel experiments, leaving her scarred, angry and frighteningly adept at killing.
This is Valkyr, the tormented, the experiment.

Valkyr was crafted from torment, Tenno. Take control of her rage.

---------------------

Before Alad V, before the experiments, there was the Gersemi Valkyr.

---------------------

So if the non primed valkyr was the outcome of being the subject to cruel experiments and harnesses her rage from the torture of said experiments; all of which happened after the old war and gersemi valkyr was the precursor to the tormented valkyr, how can valkyr prime who also uses moves themed after tormented rage even exist as a frame. 

It doesn't make sense.

Sure you can just say something like well the orokin tortured her too but that's just assumption based on convenience for her story.

Its just a skin.

[TARINunit9]

On 2018-11-28 at 2:16 PM, Kyoresh said:

except that Helminth is a modified strain and not the original

Modified? Not seeing any evidence for that. Wouldn't "descendant" be a better adjective?

[VanFanel1980mx]

On 2018-11-28 at 4:15 PM, Cradicias said:

Except the Sacrifice explains much on what a Warframe is and

  Hide contents

They are literally infected Dax soldiers or infested flesh of some sort. Having a Nidus Prime makes perfect sense as he's a Warframe built to master the use of the original strain of infested, the Helminth (which is on our orbiter).

 

If anything I think Nidus should be the second Umbra just due to his design and what you mention.

[Chaemyerelis]

33 minutes ago, TARINunit9 said:

Modified? Not seeing any evidence for that. Wouldn't "descendant" be a better adjective?

Ballas states that in one of the vitruvian codex's.

 

"We cultured the infestation conceiving of a hybrid. Transformed, but only just. The "Helminth" was created.

Edited December 31, 2018 by Chaemyerelis

[TARINunit9]

30 minutes ago, Chaemyerelis said:

Ballas states that in one of the vitruvian codex's.

 

"We cultured the infestation conceiving of a hybrid. Transformed, but only just. The "Helminth" was created.

Helminth is modified from Technocyte, yes. But the guy i was replying to theorizes that every Helminth in every Warframe is modified from Helminth the First; I'm saying that seems like a needlessly complicated way to use the word "descendant"

[Chaemyerelis]

56 minutes ago, TARINunit9 said:

Helminth is modified from Technocyte, yes. But the guy i was replying to theorizes that every Helminth in every Warframe is modified from Helminth the First; I'm saying that seems like a needlessly complicated way to use the word "descendant"

Ah ok, gotcha 👍

[Almighty_Jado]

Another question in line with the origins of Warframes would be Revenant Prime.

We know that Revenant was originally the Warden, so essentially there would only be Warden Prime. Although I guess now that I think about it, you could just do something like inject a bunch of Breath of the Eidolon or something into Warden Prime and end up with Revenant Prime.

Who knows? As long as people get their favourite Warframes Primed and buy them, DE’s happy.

[Kerberos-3]

6 hours ago, (XB1)Lwyu said:

Uhm to answer your gersemi thing I noticed, she was a different kind of frame but she was stripped of just her looks, nothing ever said she had different abilities, plus she could have had a duller version of hysteria and lesrned to harness it thus becoming our loveable valkyr. So they gave her a prime which makes sense because this is a whole new frame theyre giving the prime to. The gersemi skin is an weird thing to explain but that part is infact innacurrate in what you said.

As a matter of fact, it is very likely that Gersemi had different abilities from Valkyr. The main indicator to this is the last segment of her Codex entry, which Chaemyerelis so kindly quoted for us. "Leaving her scarred, angry, and Frighteningly adept at killing". The bold part is the important bit. How does one become "Frightening adept at killing" if they were not already so? Answer, they don't. Gersemi was almost certainly very different from Valkyr. Most likely, she was either a support frame like Octavia and Trinity(in other words, no where near the enemy at any point in time) or an espionage frame like Loki. In either case, Gersemi probably lacked killing power, hence why, after the experiments, she was described as "frighteningly adept at killing".